Jessica Tarlov, a Lonely Liberal on Fox News’ “The Five” Transcript from https://podmenti.com/t/dc4c82b6b00ba3b3 The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC and the New Yorker. This is the New Yorker Radio Hour. I'm David Remnick. We hear constantly that it's harder and harder to communicate across the country's partisan divides. MAGA conservatives, moderates, liberals, progressives. They tend to hold negative views of one another and attend different institutions and churches and colleges and social groups. In the Trump era. People don't want to talk to those who have different political views, or not often. And they certainly don't want to hang out with them. So it can't be easy for Jessica Tarlov to show up for work on the Fox News panel show. The five. The Five, if you're not familiar with it, features die hard conservatives like Dana Perino. Greg Gutfeld, and Jesse Waters. and one token liberal on the hot seat. Tarloff alternates that role with Harold Ford Jr. And her exchanges with fellow panelists. can get pretty heated. Pretty fast. All Republicans that voted to confirm him who are saying we are denying people vaccines. You promised to uphold the the highest standards for vaccines and have not done so. What vaccines has he denied someone. It's not a good idea. Wait a second. You mean you can't walk into your doctor's office and get a covenant. Why don't you prepare, Cassidy? The five is the most watched program on cable news. with a daily audience of well over three million. So there are a lot of eyes on Jessica Tarlov and how she represents liberal views in front of a largely Hostile. She's written a book largely inspired by her work on Fox called I disagree. Winning arguments. Without losing friends. I grew up in a Pretty political household parents, uh, quite active, typical boomer liberal types. So I consider myself Center left moderates. I have a podcast called Raging Moderates. So an angry moderate who wants to win elections and will go into any venue to talk about it. Okay, so that's a great way to start. What is an angry moderate? Because it seems like an oxymoron. It's all of us now. Isn't it? I spend a lot of my time looking at the data and the polling. I have a background as a political researcher and polster. I did a PhD in politics at the London School of Economics. But an angry moderate today, I think, is Someone who understands the gravity of the moment that we're in. And is laser focused on winning elections as the only solution to that. The system is set up a certain way. And that you have to get into the system, i.e., you have to win the seat or the election in order to be able to make any change. And how do you see your role? First and foremost. part of the table. But I see myself as part of A fraug. And oftentimes friendly bipartisan ensemble discourse. That very much reflects real life. What's the virtue of you being the the one out of the five and And what's the danger of it? you have an opportunity to have this tremendous platform, a huge amount of eyeballs on it, which is bipartisan. So we have twenty percent Democrats, thirty percent independents, and fifty percent Republican. And that's everything from a Romney Republican to MAGA. And I get to Not just make The Democrats case or the Democratic Party's case. I get to make my case, which I think is a very Sensible. And logical blend of policy and humanity. that resonates with people. I grew up watching Um William F. Buckley on the right. Yeah. Debating, you know, somebody from the Black Panthers or William Kunstler, the lefty lawyer, or Alan Ginsburg. It was intellectually Entertaining. What's the goal now? It's it doesn't seem things are more rough hewn. They you know who are you trying to persuade? Are we trying to entertain? What's the what's the purpose? Why are you there? So I want to win elections. Mm. I don't work for the Democratic Party. Демократ, when they're in office, elicit better policy outcomes for everybody. So there's an idealism to it, not just not just careerism. No. I and I understand I'm on You know, we're entertaining and you can't Keep four million viewers watching it if you aren't entertaining. either people on your show or Sean Hannity or Laura Ingram and they can't believe that they're actually saying a reality stuff. Exactly. They don't really believe that they mean it. certainly have heard that people ask, how much of what they say do they believe? And likewise people have asked me, how much of what you say? Do you believe? And if you spend time consistently with me, you'll see the days when I'm railing against the party for something that I think is a mistake. Like I don't know how many times I can say. I think that Blue City mayors should cooperate with ICE to turn over people who have committed crimes on American soil, not crossing the border. But once they got here. If you don't do that, then Steven Miller gets the wind beneath his sails and he goes after people who have been here for decades who work at a car wash. And nobody wants that. Donald Trump doesn't even want that. You've you've talked to Trump. No. Never. No. He certainly has. Donald Trump once came after you on Truth Social for citing some portfolding numbers and he wrote this. Why does Fox News allow failed TV personality Jessica Tarlov to soil the five? Her voice, her manner, and above all else, what she says are a disgrace to television broadcasting. When you read that on Truth Social. Do you do you feel terrible or do you go? I like that. No, I feel terrible. Do you generally. Really? Yeah. My husband will try to gauge the reaction. He's like, Can she see the value in Her Platform and her persona being elevated like this, you know, hero to the resistance left, et cetera. Um, and then I'm mostly in tears. About it. I not that one in particular. So what really gets to you? What really gets to me is threatening my job. I like all of your shows, actually. I'm glad Jessica's not there. Because I think uh no, actually I think your show would be better without it, but you know wh who am I to say that? I think it would be a lot better. I think people who act as if It is not meaningful that the most powerful person in the world is personally attacking you are being dishonest. And I see no reason. to do that. And I've shared that with my colleagues. What do they say? It's not nice. They also know that if you engage him, it just makes him stronger. Like you know, in the Little Mermaid when Ursula keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger. Sorry, I have a two and a four year old. So we're deep in the uh in the Disney trove. That's How I see Trump. When he's being fed. So when I have Conversations with people in Congress, for example. Yeah. Democrats will always say to me, you know, our Republican colleagues Yeah, behind the scenes. They can't believe it. They can't believe it. They say this, that, and the other thing about Trump, but then they go pull the lever and they vote the way they do. Is that the same at Fox? I think they believe what they say. Or at least the The core of it. I mean, one of the most important lessons that I think I've gotten from working in conservative media as a liberal is How angry. They are. And how Life has Been for conservatives when демократs are in office. The Obama years just meant such radically different things. to liberals and to conservatives. Let's dig down on that. Somebody who's got a a very high paying job on Fox, who has all the privileges in the world, how have they been in some way injured by, say, the Obama years? What what is the sense of resentment that they're feeling? I'm I'm not I'm not battling back against it. I want to understand. Yeah. Something like not having the same kind of journalistic access, let's say, to the administration, you know, favorite outlets versus ones not as much. That What they do, which Is giving voice to that factory worker and millions of people across this country. is not worth Spending a few minutes talking to someone about Mm. I'm speaking with Jessica Tarloff. More in a moment. You're on a an opinion discussion show. But you come as I've watched you, you come well armed with facts and figures and you seem to live in what Many people call the reality based uh universe. Um I think a lot of people would look at Fox's journalism about Any number of big stories, whether it's election fraud, so called, or January sixth, or any number of issues. And it's hard to credit that. As real journalism as I understand it, how am I wrong? Well, listen, I've been very clear and was all through you know, around January sixth and what it was, I call it an insurrection. Regularly Donald Trump was responsible for it. I you know, I have to So did many people on folks for high absolutely. Uh Bell Hammer, Bret Bear were on air. But then they stopped. Well they did well they didn't stop and you see Brett Bear on and you've had Brad here. has to defend the Arizona call. To a bunch of rabid election denyers. Would you say that Fox helps fom that denier? That has been litigated. When people walk up to that line and, you know, they're talking about you know, this thing or that thing that happened that might not have been big enough to swing votes, but there was something funny going on. I believe the point of what I'm doing is to Say You just don't want to go there. Like, this is done. It's not only done and dusted. It can never happen again. Wha what have you learned more about conservatives. By sitting in the seat that you do. That you didn't know before. On specific issues I think that I have been able to see it from the other perspective. And a lot of liberals have gone through an evolution when it comes to, you know border security under Biden and and things like that. I have learned. A lot about people's Pro life. views by being with genuine religious conservatives. And then I've even moderated the way that I talk about abortion to be more in step with, frankly, the European standard rather than when we just say safe, legal and rare because that sounds insane. to people if you sit down and say that versus, you know, can we have a conversation about a viability standard? Is that at, you know, twenty four weeks and then obviously exceptions for life of the mother. That comes from talking to people who have you know, deeply held beliefs. That Life begins at conception, or that it has to be first trimester, for instance. What can you not wrap your head around? I Can't wrap my head around thinking that Donald Trump has moved this country in a good direction. And uh There are so many people who are willing to compromise what they know to be true about character and morals and all of these things. I think for hands. A lot of people share that with the I know, but it doesn't win elections. No, I okay, I understand that. No, it's that's like a me talking versus how I would advocate our. Let's leave elections alone for a second. you're go to work each day with with people who do do that. who do find a way to Say oh that's Oh, that's just him, or that's him being funny, or he doesn't really mean it. How do your colleagues in your view, see that or or have a kind of cognitive dissonance where they push it to it to the side, that's hard for me to understand. I understand and I think that we might have, frankly, a different idea of morality about how a politician behaves than they would inherently. They Have found a way to make someone into a policy вікоol that they like and excuse the other stuff, and we're always looking for both. And also People just think politicians are bad Dude. Across the board. Yeah. But I mean, you would you would see those numbers over and over again, you know, faith in Congress cares about people like me. Every institution. Has gone down in standing, even fire departments. Are down four percent. In reproval. The people who go wrong into Yes, I'm the data person. Why would that be? I think people just don't think society works. People don't trust doctors in the same way. I mean our insurance system in general. Is horrific. Which is why you have people who would typically be part of You know, the moderate crew or the center left who are talking about Medicare for all now. Ruben Gallego, for instance, right? And that's what I'm talking about. When you're talking about an angry moderate, it's a Ruben Gallego set of policy proposals, right? Where you say, Yeah, we're all We should all have health care. And we need to close the border, and that's a good thing. You're looking at the um midterm elections, I'm sure, and you're also looking at a very fractured democratic party. Yes. You've seen Zoran Mamdani. You've seen AOC. they've emerged not only in the their particular offices, but I I would have to think that AOC, for example, is a lot more powerful than just the district that she's representing. Hundred percent. And she'll be even more when she's Perhaps our senator and then maybe when she's a candidate for president. How do you feel about that? I feel better than I used to about it. Yeah. Because she said no to DSA here and she didn't say no to DSA. She She has great instincts. She didn't touch Graham Platiner. She didn't endorse him that race. She wasn't running up to Maine, you know, ready to stump for him. I don't know if it's'cause she was a bartender, but she was like, I know that guy. Yeah. She didn't endorse Against sitting democratic representatives. Here in New York. Sho if it's an open seat, that's one thing. But she's part of a caucus. And that was certainly a nod to Hakeem Jeffries. I mean, I pay a lot of attention to her because Clips of her are con constantly used in conservative media, right? So it all makes her stronger. Jesse Waters, one of your co-hosts, recently commented on Pete Hegseth's plan to screen testosterone levels in the military, and he said The guys that don't need it are gonna take it. To triple boost. Right. And then they're gonna get out there and women on base, you guys better be careful. Port calls women in Asia, you better be careful because these guys are gonna be wild animals and you better watch out. You weren't on the panel. I was not on the panel. Lucky you. Um Do you talk to him? Do you say anything? I did. ask him when I came back, and he was like Of course I wasn't condoning Rape. And you have to If you are a consumer of Jesse Waters. You would get it as com you would get it as pure comedy. You might not think it's funny. It was I wouldn't not have had a ha ha moment at that. I know that Jesse Waters doesn't think it's okay to rape people. It's not certainly not something like I would have said. And that I know I have a particular style with Jesse. We're very combative like siblings. But It links to Something that I think is core to this whole discussion. People who Like Jesse. Or people who watch Jesse a lot. give benefit of the doubt on something like that, and also know that he's not ill intentioned. That has a life to it in the clip economy that I think might not in the regular viewership economy. Table mates think that Donald Trump is corrupt. I don't know. I don't There is a very strong case that they make and have made on air that well he was a businessman. So this isn't like a politician making money. There's a lot of animus that even towards there's a lot of animus towards politicians that get rich. You told us you were a public servant. And so this idea now that the Obamas have houses everywhere from Martha's Vineyard to Hawaii or whatever they're doing and That is out of step. With who they told you they were. But Donald Trump never told you he was anything but a scumbag. I'm using scumbag, that's my word. And I think a lot about the initial premis. of Donald Trump's candidacy, which is I could f I can fix this because I'm the one who knows where all the loopholes are. Right, I'm the one that knows where the body's. are buried. in the tax code and maybe in real life too. And that carries a lot of weight. Potentially breaking out the Democratic Party for the presidency. I think it's Going to be very hard. For people Tip. pick because I think the bench is so wildly talented. People are going to have a tough time choosing From every column but the left column'cause there'll be a moderate choice, right? And then there'll be a left wing choice. And if it is an AOC, I don't really see someone at this moment that could take that mantle from her, who is going to be as compelling. to an audience. Um John Ossoff is very compelling to me. A Jewish guy from Georgia. Yes. My husband would say, like Is this because you're upset that you married out? He's Catholic. He's had great speech coaching and he has got great writers who understand that What people want the most. Is Anger. Here you are in the other belly of the beast, the liberal media establishment. As somebody who spends a lot of time at Fox What do you want to kick us in the ass about? And say, Wake up, you're missing this, this, and this. I think that There's a lot of lip service to the a various autopsies. that have been done about the twenty twenty four election and people have their marching orders. We know that we're Coastal elites. Or we know that we talk down to people and we're not gonna do that anymore. But they don't feel differently about that. Those caricatures Uh Pervasive And still very powerful. And Are they overcomable or is it just something that's lost? So if the policies are good enough. It is about deliverables. And you see that with Donald Trump. Now they don't like him right now. I'm talking about the average conservative voter is mad, not necessarily I wouldn't tell you I hate Donald Trump, but they hate Tariffs. They hate the war in Iran, they hate the self dealing. They know Donald Trump is corrupt. You know. I look back to the twenty twenty lines of argumentation about, you know, why we needed Donald Trump out and what Joe Biden could provide. And it was a you know a safe pair of hands. And I believe without Covid that Trump would have won reelection. And I wish that he had I wish we were done now. Because he like Ursula. Got stronger. In those four. I could also do Beauty and the Beast. But You know, he Establish uh A cadre of advisors that understood the challenge like Russ vote wasn't as powerful round one. Steven Miller certainly not as powerful. Project twenty twenty-five. Not a sec. I I hate that we gave them four years. To take a sledgehammer. Yeah. We haven't found a way to deliver Our vision for the future. Because we're too slogan. Too decorous, too mild, too. A PhD, so like I get it. I get why it's interesting to what write a big policy paper or you know, dig deep into you know what happened. But for me, it's like just give me the bumper stickers. Where's your no tax on tips? Mm-hmm. But We Like good liberals, I think, have ingested. All of these learnings and have yet To spit something out. That can win an election on Our ideas and our merits and not just Not being the other guy. Jessica Tarla, thanks so much. Thank you for having me. Jessica Tarloff is co-host of the Five on Fox News, as well as the podcast Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway. Her book is called I disagree. Winning arguments without losing friends. And it's out in September. I'm David Remnick, and that's the New Yorker radio hour for today. Thanks. See you next time. The New Yorker Radio Hour is a co-production of WNYC and The New Yorker. Our theme music was composed and performed by Meryl Garbus of Tuneyards, with additional music by Louis Mitchell and Jared Paul. This episode was produced by Max Balton, Adam Howard. David Krasnow, Jeffrey Masters, Louis Mitchell, Jared Paul, and Ursula Summer. With guidance from Emily Botin. We had help this week from Erica Huang. The New Yorker Radio Hour is supported in part by the Charina Endowment Fund.