Daryl Morey - Systems Thinking in Sports - [Invest Like the Best, REPLAY]

0:00 I know firsthand how complex the tech stack is for asset management firms. And seemingly every new tool and data source makes the problem even worse, adding more complexity, more headcount, and more risk. Ridge line offers a better way forward. One unified platform that automates away the complexity across portfolio accounting. Reconciliation, reporting, trading, compliance, and more, all at scale. Ridge line is revolutionizing investment management, helping ambitious firms scale faster.

0:25 Operate smarter and stay ahead of the curve. See what Ridgeline can unlock for your firm. Schedule a demo at ridgeline.ai. Mm. Hello and welcome everyone, I'm Patrick O'Shaughnessy and this is Invest Like the Best. This show is an open ended exploration of markets, ideas, stories, and strategies that will help you better invest both your time and your money.

0:48 Invest like the best is part of the Colossus family of podcasts, and you can access all our podcasts, including edited transcripts, show notes, and other resources to keep learning at joincolosis.com. Patrick O'Shaughnessy is the CEO and founding partner of Positive Sum and the CEO of O'Shaughnessy Asset Management. All opinions expressed by Patrick and podcast guests are solely their own opinions and do not reflect the opinion of Positive Sum or O'Shaughnessy Asset Management. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a basis for investment decisions. Clients of Positive Sum or O'Shaughnessy Asset Management may maintain positions in the securities discussed in this podcast.

1:33 My guest this week is Daryl More, who is president of basketball operations for the Philadelphia Seventy Sixers. Daryl is a computer science graduate, but has become one of the NBA's most successful general managers during his time with the Houston Rockets and the 76ers. Together with my friend and past guest of the show, Sam Hinke, Darrell pioneered the analytics movement in basketball. He's been so influential that his style has earned its own name. Mori ball. A nod to Michael Lewis's book about baseball, Money Ball. Daryl is also the co-founder of the MIT Sloan Sports Analytics Conference, which has become the gold standard forum for leaders in sports analytics.

2:08 I had a blast talking to him about negotiation tactics, systems thinking, hiring, and a ton more. Before we transition to the episode, I want to highlight the Founders podcast, which is part of our Colossus Network. David Senra, who hosts Founders, has devoted his life to learning from history's greatest entrepreneurs. And every week he distills the lessons of a different founder. If you want an entry point, I highly recommend starting with episode 136 on Estee Lauder. I hosted David on Invest Like the Best this summer, and it's hard not to walk away insanely energized after listening to any episode with him.

2:42 You can find a link to founders and that episode in the show notes of this conversation, and you can search all past transcripts on our website, joincolossis.com. Please enjoy this great conversation with Daryl Mori. So Daryl, in preparation for our conversation, I had so much fun both talking to mutual friends, but also just rethinking about sports again. For the first time in a long time.

3:06 And you're probably the perfect person to ask this series of questions that I'm prepared to go into. But I wanted to start with principles about games in general. And the makings or the features, in your opinion. of a perfect sport or a perfect game. And I start here because I've heard you say basketball

3:22 is sort of a nearly perfect game that it's always evolving, there's room for creativity. And so on. And then I've visited Michael Mobison's skill versus luck spectrum and You find basketball is pretty high in the skill. Spectrum. much higher than say football or soccer, but those have much bigger audiences.

3:38 There's just so many variables to what go into making a great game or a great sport. And almost at like a philosophical level, I'd love you to start there by just describing what you think those key features are that make for like a forever game. I love that question because it's become pretty core as all these games are being created. New esports.

3:57 And things like that. And I have to say thanks for having me on. Patrick, long time, long time listener. I'm very nervous. Just because uh a lot of the people I admire have been on But I mostly worry about

4:09 Providing value to your listeners'cause I feel like you guys Speaking of Skill you have the highest. Value ratio of most podcasts. So obviously there's the skill

4:20 Luck continuum and Mobison who's Someone I've admired for a long time has written about this and talked about this and we even Had some conversations about it recently at a Santa Fe. event and

4:33 I tend to like More skill sports, but I think from a macro perspective A healthy amount of log helps viewers. So people tune in or go to In event for two reasons. They want to know how important is this game to some

4:49 prize that you're chasing, whether it be championship or Europe, they have different models with different kinds of championships, which is why the MBA's looking at Adding different kinds of tournaments. Within the season. And then how unlikely is the outcome?

5:04 If you know if you go. Who's gonna win and you know exactly what's gonna happen. That's not a very compelling tune in. You come for Any given Sunday. Or truly two highly skilled teams that are fifty fifty, sixty forty.

5:19 Outcomes. And I do think Basketball often falls down on some of those requirements. You get some games on

5:28 A Monday night with a very good team, uh Golden State at their peak with Tilly During Sam Hank's reign and You sort of know The outcome.

5:38 When I've talked about basketball as I think almost the perfect sport. It's really more of a selfish Answer from me. I tend to like skill. And I tend to like

5:49 Games Where the data hasn't solved it completely, but the data also informs. So my career's I'm using data to help decisions. across different fields and basketball most recently. And basketball will never be solved.

6:05 If you think about what goes into one Even one jump shot in basketball. Is it because that player worked on his shot for Ten thousand hours prior to this is it cause the defense was bad. Is it because the past was good.

6:20 Literally one jump shot has so many variables. You can isolate them and try to minimize them, but It's a flowing game, so I love it relative to Baseball. I started working baseball with Bill James and

6:32 Everything's The eighty twenty is the better picture of that with very little And they're making it even more static. By getting rid of the shift rules. In the NBA

6:43 We're always gonna have this mix of Art and science that I think is really good. Some games are Almost unsolvable with data. The NFL. Extremely hard to solve with data. Twenty two players.

6:56 Moving at one time. With very few games. Most of the time you're just saying, I don't know. Hockey's like that. Basketball lives in this perfect Niche of

7:07 Data And ours. I don't feel like answering your original question though, which is what makes for a great game. The thing that people don't talk about with what makes a great game is like do you think actually

7:19 Having rules. And things that are hard to understand creates a switching cost. that people don't think about so I've thought about this in the e sports space. Which as folks know is Video games have become

7:32 competitive sports and things that people tune into with full stadiums and things like that. I think League of Legends has survived through multiple iterations and twelve plus years. And seems to be growing and building. A forever game in a field where forever games are hard.

7:49 Because It's difficult to learn, so when people learn it, they don't wanna exit. That's one aspect I've thought about recently. Yeah, I love that that Frictions are high to get good.

8:00 But once you're good. you're incentivized to sort of stick around. And then then creates nuance and I've never played League of Legends, but I've watched them and they're like pretty damn entertaining because you can just tell how skillful they are. Well then they've added announcers that are better and

8:15 One thing that really helps us for With like the NBA, for example, is You can be a casual watcher and appreciate the athleticism and The amazing step back threes of Steph Curry or You can be a casual watcher, but you can also as I know you are

8:32 Be someone who understands Oh, they're running floppy action. They're running this down screen. They're switching every pick and roll. They're waiting through transition. It has nothing to do with this. So basketball works on this multiple level, both the diehards And the casuals.

8:47 Can get a lot out of the game and That's something that's for example like a Rocket League, which is an emerging sport. Sorry to go to eSports. I think about esports a decent amount. Because it's fresh, yeah. Yeah, I think about new sports quite a bit. Which ones?

9:00 Are going to become as big as people say'cause Every new sport, like pickleball is the one now. Everyone says like this is gonna be a huge sport. Table tennis has been rumored to be a big sport. And I play table tennis. Since I was a kid and it still has not

9:14 Hit the Z guy. Found that niche basically that has it grow anywhere but in the Asian region. Back to Rocket League. Rocket League has the aspect of it's extremely easy to understand. It's Rocket cars shooting soccer balls at goals. So way, way easier to understand. But it also has a ton of intricacies for the diehards, basically.

9:36 I don't want to overstretch the analogy between what you do in sports where there's more discrete outcomes, there's a scoreboard that ends, there's a discrete game, and investing where it's sort of always an open ended structure and a very complex system. But there's enough overlap that we can talk about a lot of common interests and themes like biases, et cetera. One that's kind of unique is What I'll call like the concentration of resources. If you look at basketball for sure, we're

10:02 maybe sixty percent or more of championships have been won by like a small handful of teams. Or like an F one where the very highest financed car programs are always winning. The concentration of resources seems like a key thing to understand in a given game. How do you think about that? Is that a good or a bad? Is it just a feature of certain sports and not others?

10:23 What do you think about resource concentration as an aspect of all this. I think it's the latter. The structure of different sports really dictates how important your top few

10:35 She people are Basketball has the feature of all the major sports. That The top players have by far the most outsize impact, much bigger than anything in baseball. To illustrate it.

10:49 In baseball you could have Guys three through fifteen. be extremely good and not have your top two players be the very top players in their sport and win a title and it's happened. That literally is impossible in basketball. So The way I illustrate how the top players

11:06 Like a Joel and beat impact the game. is the following by comparing it to baseball. In baseball, if you have a top player, say Barry Bond's at his peak, who is something like Plus fourteen wins to some peak that no one's achieved since then. He goes to bat.

11:23 And then he has to wait eight more times before he gets to bat again. Whereas if Joelle Mead comes down and scores And then we go down again, he's like, You know what? I'm still the best player. I'm gonna go back again and again and again. That's one thing and then

11:39 Even worse, it's become That The only ways to guard guys like James Harden And Joelle Bede often is to switch ball screens. This is true of a lot of the Golden State players as well.

11:53 So if you're switching ball screens, the other team can manipulate those screens. And basically end up with the matchup they want. So not only does Barry Bonds get to call his own number each time and go to bed nine straight times. He also gets to select the pitcher on the other team he wants to face. So you can imagine the impact.

12:12 And then just The more basic things are there's only five players on each side. Versus A lot of sports have eleven, some have nine. So just that

12:21 As well. Once you have that these players make huge impacts Certain players have made almost thirty win out of eighty two game impacts in our sport. It basically aligns everything to that. And I think you've had Sam Hinke on, you've had some other Basketball folks, and that is why

12:38 Seems When they look at how to win the title Go to these extreme lengths. To make sure They're getting one of these players.

12:48 You can literally justify Any activity, any investment, anything to get One of these players What have you learned about The degree of certainty or uncertainty.

12:59 in that recipe because For example, I think of the Shane Battier trader we had Shane on Recently. And He was just this unbelievable proven commodity that just

13:09 Increased wins wherever he went. But had it obviously a ceiling, he wasn't gonna score thirty points a game. Versus some Whatever it was. I think it was an eighth draft pick or something like that.

13:19 It was created to get chain. Which who knows? Steph Curry went whatever he went. Seventh or something. So how do you think about the spectrum of uncertainty?

13:28 making one of these moves with sort of the championship in mind. You are weighing championship odds and generally we look over a three year Time horizon with that. You could really pick any time horizon, but three years seems to work best with the data. And we basically do

13:44 A sharp ratio like you would in investing, which is like Here's our championship odds increase. Here's the variance of that move. Is it on the efficient frontier of return to risk, basically and Shane obviously fit that for us. None of our information is anywhere as good as the financial models.

14:03 Actually our underlying data is more predictive. Quite a bit predictive. I talk to a lot of quants on Wall Street and I tell them our signal to noise ratio using whatever measure you want. You guys are that's incredible. And I'm like, Yeah, but you remember we have to be best of thirty. You guys just have to be the SP by two percent and then you're geniuses. Each industry has its own challenges.

14:27 But When we traded For Shane, and I don't think Shane mentioned this when he was on. Maybe he doesn't even know this. We might not have talked about it. A big aspect of that was done completely on hypothesis. I would say it's not a big aspect, but it was a material aspect.

14:43 was we were trying to unlock our superstar. So our superstar at the time was Yao Ming. And Basically, he's the most devastating player in the history of the NBA. If he could catch the ball. Within seven It's feet of the hoop.

14:57 If he caught it there, you're done because he's so big you can't follow him. He makes eighty eight percent of his free throws. He shot almost sixty percent once he caught it there. We could not get him the ball. And Shane we knew is an extremely good postmaster. He hadn't really Had a chance to show it a lot. He had guys like

15:15 Straw Mile Swift in Memphis and like guys that really couldn't take advantage of that skill. But given his height. His intelligence, it's a very timing thing. It's a feel for the game thing. We felt like He could help with that and he did. Shane actually one time famously described throwing the ball to Yao.

15:32 In the pain is hitting the hundred on ski ball, so Joel B, for example. You could throw the ball Anywhere near him and he's gonna get it. He's athletic, his hands are amazing.

15:43 In fact It creates a problem until we had James Our entry passes weren't great because everyone knew he'd go get it, but when he caught it, it would be in a bad position. James is now getting him the ball in a lot better positions given his passing skill. But basically the owl they would front him, they would put athlete around him, and there was a very small tight window you had to hit.

16:05 And time well to get him the ball. And once he did though, we'd unlocked Yao Ming and Obviously we had some great runs. And Houston with that group. In so many of these examples where you're entering a new game and you're trying to win. Just like in a simplest sense.

16:20 It sounds like the thing that you would advise people first do is identify what you're optimizing for. Like in basketball, you need a superstar. And I'm sure there's layers of nuance beneath how much more is LeBron and his prime worth than like the second best player and stuff like that. I'd be curious about that. But in general, is that the strategy that you would advocate that you spend the first chunk of time saying like Okay, wait a minute, what determines outcomes in the first place? And then let's build around that.

16:44 Yeah, it's basically KPIs. To steal the business term. I see different sports all the time and that's a hundred percent the first question I ask. What is your first layer? And the MBA was the first thing I did when I got the job in the MBA with the Celtics in two thousand two.

17:00 was okay, we know winning matters. What drives winning, point differential drives winning. Da And we knew that from baseball and I had done that work in the NBA. Well is it's that saying. What should I point to France? Oh, it's

17:13 Number of possessions times your efficiency of using each possessions. Pretty basic. Number of possessions, rebounding and turnovers. Shooting is a combination of both. The mix of threes and twos that you shoot and the outcome of that. And then also do you get to the line and how efficiently do you make the free throws. What are the leading indicators of those? Okay, then it's are you in transition or not?

17:35 Every question that I'll get in the sport I'll say, I don't know. You don't know the answer to So you have to do that first. I met with some key soccer bill, I won't say the Premier League team. in the mid two thousands who were looking to do advanced things.

17:50 And I was like, Okay, well your first thing, we know gold differential is all that matters. But you have very few goal events. So you have to then first break down every shot into sort of an expected points that you're gonna get from that goal. They at the time were claiming to be very advanced and they didn't have an answer to that. And I was like

18:10 Well, you guys Have nothing. You have no way of knowing anything till you get that. So They do have that infrastructure now and now they're working on the secondary and tertiary problem. So

18:21 You need to like know What are your KPIs and then what are the key drivers of those? from the GMC where you're especially focused on personnel decision and then working obviously with a coach and with owners. How do you think about the dynamic between the talent and the system? So very famously there's been systems that are well known, like Phil Jackson's systems in basketball.

18:43 that seem to just kind of work or Mike Dantoni's revolutions and the speed of the game. And I'm curious. How you think the two relate to one another and how they work together. Yeah, this is part of the art of basketball that I love.

18:55 Again, to compare to baseball, I just do because they're the gold standard for using data in sports. Generally there isn't really a system that changes, but Where there is a hard problem, which is you're a hundred percent right, that how players perform in different systems is Pretty variant. But that also creates opportunity.

19:15 It's not just fine undervalued asset, which is famously money ball and written by Michael Lewis. It's about finding undervalued assets in your system and structure. Basically it allows you to zigger zag. The way the league is going, the way everyone is going. It's five out offense, switch every ball screen, basically the way the Celtics play.

19:34 And the way the clippers are going right now. Is the direction that everyone believes is the best way to play modern basketball. And it might be. But within that There's a ton of opportunity. For us, we have the best big man in the game, I believe you can debate, probably top three.

19:51 And playing with a big man is actually more historic, even though a lot of the trends of basketball the three pointers, things like that. All point to playing the spread offenses, switch every ball screen bigs aren't as important. That now actually in some ways makes Joe L and B More potent, more valuable,'cause he faces these teams that don't have an ability to handle him.

20:13 I think that's a lot of what's happening with Some of these teams playing that way, struggling. that as they face more traditional teams playing a more traditional way. They struggle even though they might be doing all the right things. In an optimal way.

20:28 You're not only just finding undervaluers like Anthony Melton, I believe, was and is playing well for us. You're finding undervalued players that inside your system are even more undervalued. What about the whole like in business power law thing where No matter how far up the curve you go. The law still applies.

20:47 Where Microsoft and Apple and their market cap is just like Even if you compare it to like a snowflake, which is by any measure this amazing company. Snowflake's like a pimple. on the back of one of these just massive businesses. Do you find that it's that way too in

21:01 Superstars. I asked earlier about LeBron. You look at the finals, it's like you see a lot of LeBron and Steph Curry. You look back over the last generation Isn't that same kind of power law, no matter how far up it you go?

21:13 There's a few things that I don't love about basketball. It is the It is that the superstars matter so so much that The value they bring is asymptotic in that It messes with the math completely. Even though we're trying to optimize

21:29 the Shane Battiers and the the Anthony Meltons to come in and help our team And you've heard all those ways I wax poetic, but They get wiped out instantly. In a season where Yao Ming's toe gets hurt, so he he no longer can turn left shoulder, right hand hook shot.

21:48 That It's like An order of magnitude different Everything is best. And then if you're a team, which we were before we traded for James Harden in Houston. And then

21:58 If you're a team without one of those superstars Acquiring them and this is why you see some of these What appeared to be crazy trades in BA You can basically say you should trade Everything not bolted down.

22:10 You're adding up pennies to try and add up to a hundred dollar bill. You could trade everything at an organization that doesn't have A superstar. To try and get one. There's really almost no crazy trade that isn't justified.

22:25 You're either in the game or you're not. You go into the season, there's only Nine, eight, something like that, even in a good year to have a chance to win. This year is a good year. Quite a few teams have a chance to win. Most chairs go in there. Really three or four that only have a chance to win. So

22:41 I hate that about it. And then the three pointer is Absolutely out of black. So I love the NBA will always change its rules. Like most of these for like soccer's completely hosed. They have a whole bunch of things they need to fix.

22:55 And they have a game that's been around since I don't know. If you talk to England. thirteen, twelve, and you know, the battle days things happen, then soccer came about. Something like that. They won't change the most minor things ever. Baseball's finally getting there. I used to make fun of baseball. They formed a committee, they studied it for three years, and they came out with one rule changing. You can go to first base quickly on an intentional walk. Whereas

23:18 Yeah, I'll give credit to the NBA League office and Adam. We've tweaked our rules a lot over the years. Whether it be adding the shot clock, which was a huge innovation or the three pointer was a huge innovation. We've added major changes that all helped the game over the years and we'll continue to do that. And the one that's out of black right now is three pointers. They're worth too much. Being worth fifty percent more than two is too much. So

23:41 Those are probably the two things. That would change right now. Is it frustrating to operate Where All the stakeholders are very deterministic in their interpretation, but your job is very probabilistic. Like

23:53 You think about the championship as the one that you're optimizing for. You're just basically doing this big expected value calculation all the time. Whereas your fans are just like, Did you win or not? Well, this is why Sam Hankey's a venture capitalist right now. So and yeah, I even understand the fan perspective. Their whole thing is like

24:13 I wanna see a championship. I wanna go to meaningful playoff games. And the other thing is Well The media environment, obviously it's a good thing. It's why people are excited about our sport and come, like

24:25 If we didn't have media, we'd be in real trouble. But the media environment Has always been tough, but I feel like it's gotten more tough in that They will pause it and ponder and you should do this, you should do that, you should do this. And I like it'cause I learned from it.

24:41 But when they make a mistake Best case they'll just write a column like Oh, one time I thought this, but I was wrong. Oh yeah. If the team did that, they would be out a hundred million. But For me it's just a little node in a column.

24:54 But that's in the best case. And most of the time They never go back and talk about the things they said that were completely wrong. So yeah, look, decision making's hard. It's hard in every industry. But ours happens to be on the front page of the newspaper and the top trends on Twitter and Things like that.

25:12 As you get away from the superstars into the organizations I'm sure those parallel curves flatten out a little bit, but I haven't seen you talk much about building the team that is the front office, like how you hire Talent.

25:24 This is where the investment organization and the sports organization actually have a lot in common. Everyone's gonna talk about the returns or the games. But what goes on behind the scenes with the teams is really important in the investment teams at the front office. So when you're hiring

25:39 front office staff and you have sort of like a parcells coaching tree. Like a lot of people that have worked for you have gone on to be GMs. What is in the sauce there? What are you looking for when you hire People is it?

25:51 unique to each person, or is there like a common through line? I think The best leaders spend a lot of time on getting the right people and then I just feel like I'm failing all the time. Like I should be doing an even Better job. I think we have like five or six GMs and five or six coaches who have come through.

26:08 We work together. both in Houston, Boston, and now here I spent a lot of time out of fact, we're hiring right now, so If anyone wants to reach out I'm on Twitter. I'm fairly easy to find.

26:20 I'm a bit in a panic that we're getting behind on some of the latest techniques and machine learning and things like that. We have good internal people, but There's been recent innovations that I'm sure you're on top of. That are turning By the day.

26:33 Yeah, there's some of them are turning long time. Yeah, I was a predictive modeling person and statistics. They're finding completely new insights. But anyway, long story short. Early on I would find the people who are doing in their spare time what they want to do now.

26:52 And that's I think a little harder to Do in other industries although I think with podcasting and blogging Then Twitter. You can now find those people. But if they're in their spare time, if they're like The best analyst

27:04 In the NBA, I think is still in Easton. And he was blogging and Two thousand five and two thousand seven. Area and We hired him to I still feel guilty about this to like a four year intern contract. Which I think was maybe unconstitutional or something. I don't know, but

27:22 I got annoyed. A lot of our interns left. So I was like, This one seems good. We're gonna hire him and lock him up. So Long term deal. That was probably the trick, but then everyone sort of copied that trick. Then I would say Are two new veins.

27:37 Uh finding people were finding the Really smart kids who go to basketball schools. So whether that be due But that's Woman I ever hired came out of Duke.

27:48 Stanford obviously. So some of these schools that have a Pretty good to very good basketball program. And the students might have selected the school based on that a little bit, and they're also super smart. So that's been a nice vein. And all of its outreach.

28:03 I've had some luck just tweeting, hey, we have a job. And I've had some pretty good success with that, but I'd say that hit rate's really, really, really low. As you might expect. When you got the team built. And then it becomes about

28:18 Decision making at the end of the day, there's lots that happens before decision making, gathering data, learning. applying different models, et cetera. We'll come back to that. But I'm really interested in like when making a key decision with a team, understanding that you're probably the final decision maker or GMs in general are often the final decision makers. What you found to be the best ways to make decisions with all the tools in your toolkit.

28:40 I'm especially interested here in voting theory and voting systems. In the role of the biases play and Making sure you de bias the decision making process. So how has this evolved? Maybe starting with what does it look like today?

28:52 How do you make a key decision in the organization? We spend a lot of time on this. Obviously we have three tools, drafts. Free agency and trade. To your point. Humans are

29:04 Pretty bad at decisions. I'm pretty confident in that. Including you have to put the mirror to yourself and realize your own biases. And those are famous we've been written about and thinking fast and slow in a lot of different books. So what we do currently

29:20 I have like a game of thrones a small council. Uh, which is right now seven key people. In fact, we're meeting right after this podcast. We always do a vote before we meet. That vote is always informed with data.

29:38 The same data is available to everyone on that council. One of the council members is remote to try and fight groupthink. Groupthink is still real, even with all these safeguards. That I'm putting in basically'cause We live in this NBA world. It's sort of like a sewing circle. It's a really tight world. Everyone sort of talks about the same things.

29:59 Within that world. So we can't really fool ourselves. There's a couple of methods. So To your point of voting methods. There's a mix between

30:08 Systems that minimize Ability to manipulate And there's systems that Use the strength of feeling. Then those are polar opposites.

30:18 The ones that are hardest to manipulate, but eliminate strength of feeling are like Condorcet methods or Yule methods. And then the ones that implement strength of feeling. Those are pretty simple. Those are just Compare what we're doing. each sort of asset in that compare'em to a draft pick, almost like you put a valuation on something.

30:38 If a company was doing it, they'd put like a dollar valuation on each one. We use draft pick equivalents because Our money is messed up. We have constraints with the collective bargaining agreement that makes using dollars Not very congruent. So we tend to use draft pick equivalents as much as we can. And then everyone does that voting before you get in the room. And then when we get in the room

30:59 It'll basically spit out things like Who has the strongest feeling and I'll let them talk first and make sure they're talking first. You'd be surprised people, if you're in a room, a group of people, how bad that info is, unless you have some of these prompts. So I can tell you we have quiet people in that group.

31:17 But they're very comfortable loading on their own. When they sit there and think through They have some pride in being right,'cause we can Go back and check. Who's looked at this?

31:26 Now it doesn't mean that person's better, like you can just be lucky and right. That happens a lot too, but your track record over time. Just like our tracker to the NBA. We're the fourth best winning of all time. Among executives. So

31:39 An executive who has a long track record of good draft picks, good free agent decisions, good trade is an interesting thing because it's hard to be consistently good. Over time. So we get in the room and it's like hey What are you saying? The group is lower here, but maybe they're missing a piece of info'cause You want to distinguish between

31:57 You're higher on a decision because You have taken the same inputs And come to a different conclusion. That's a very different thing than like maybe they're seeing something different in the data that everyone else is missing. So those are two different things. The good judgment project is interesting. Super forecasting. I don't know if you've

32:16 Talk to Tatlock, yeah. Well, the use of Briar scores and things like that give you a good sense over time. So We're like a peer play. It's the lifeblood of our business, whereas You know, in other businesses, I'd say execution probably matters a lot more. In all aspects, including coaching.

32:33 A well executed slightly suboptimal strategy generally will be The best strategy poorly executed. I mean, you know that. That's generally true in basketball as well, but I would say in our realm of decision making, it's really almost a peer decision making thing. This draft pick beats that draft pick. This free agent for five million.

32:54 It's that free agent for five million. It's more of a pure play. Sports is actually way simpler than most of the people you talk to. Way simpler. Our sport

33:04 It changes, but not much. Our data's pretty good. Our competitors aren't coming out with new products. Our competitive dynamics are known. They're Hard, but they're no. We don't have the rums cell problem of unknown unknowns, like some Start up in stealth mode that might have bur like

33:21 That's why academics have done more and more papers about sports because if you're trying to isolate How to make good decisions. Sports is a really ripe area to do that in, including a recent Harvard paper on why Well, the three point line was introduced like forty years ago, I forget the exact amount.

33:39 Well, fifty years ago, maybe. And it took teams so long to realize That this was an OP strategy. For the game. Why did that happen? So like there's been quite a few papers written about that, which is interesting.

33:54 What about game selection? It seems like If you talk to a lot of the best investors, they'll attribute their success to picking the right Pond to fish in, the right game to play. And then over time

34:05 Things that are roughly fixed, you know, the same rules or whatever. Get more and more efficient. We're probably Well, you tell me like how far up the diminishing return curve we might be in basketball or in other sports. And then just in general, how you think about

34:19 Game selection. You seem like someone that likes to go into a situation Figure out which variables matter. Start building systems around those variables. In order to win. How do you stay interested in basketball versus saying like I'm gonna go do this to Bing Bong?

34:33 And be like the world's best ping pong selection guy. It's a question I struggle with. I just stay in basketball'cause I love it. I had a recent opportunity where I might have left and I thought I was gonna be out of the game for at least a year when I left Houston.

34:48 And I was like, Oh, this'll be fun. I'll sit on the sidelines and think through all these things and then The Philadelphia thing came up very quickly and it was right before the draft, so They needed someone rapidly. So I never got to do that. The answer to your question is basketball's getting

35:03 The edges are getting smaller and smaller. Baseball's Facing this as well. And that's frustrating, especially for someone who's lived through the Huge innovations. shooting optimization was

35:15 Worth a max contract. You could add Essentially a near all star just through strategy. Now the advantages we're trying to eke out are like a half win.

35:26 to a win, to a win and a half at most. And so That's not as much fun. I did take a step back for the little period I did and said, like I do love basketball and I do love what I do. So I like the people I get to work with. I get to work with great people. But you're right. I mean I think

35:43 If you've lived through the internet. And it's heyday. It's probably hard for some of the folks to start the next business that's Oh, another vertical, another vertical this site, you know, really? I'm gonna work on that. So it's probably similar to that a little bit. Yeah. How much time do you spend

36:01 for fun analyzing other stuff with this same mindset. Like I wanna know your take on movies or on other sports like the Olympics or stuff like that. Do you find yourself drawn to just Trying to figure out a new system as almost like a hobby, like it's your main hobby.

36:16 That's probably what I love the most, which is why I love the MIT conference. So when I get there it brings From every sport and Just because of my track record and being into board games and being into games since I was a little kid and I was the first video game generation and playing video games on the Vic twenty and the Commodore sixty four and things like that.

36:36 The I do love like hey Show me this for Like cricket recently. I got more into cricket.

36:44 I was just watching in England they have this new hundreds format. And I was watching, I was like, boy, they're doing this definitely sub optimally. I felt good because I Recent someone would come to the conference and I was like This new format they've created, it appears no one's adjusted to it. He's like oh a hundred percent.

37:01 So Give a sport, figure out the key drivers. And then the other one I'm big on is just the rules. I'm always trying to tune the rules of sport. So that

37:12 It's more interesting to watch. There's a good trade off between Certain things and That tends to get everyone mad at me when I try to modify the rules of other people's sports. I've got a few modifier questions.

37:24 How would you change the rules of soccer? So soccer's the one that's the my bugaboo. People wanna say that it has good rules and it has the worst rules. Of any major sport by far. So first off Offsides is

37:38 Impossible for casual viewers to understand. Poorly written. You can get off sides when it's not creating an advantage, which is dumb. And then just fundamentally, if you have a sport where Stationing a player.

37:51 on the other end of the field so that they're out of the play completely is optimal. Such that you have to write a rule to stop it. That means you have too many players. Eleven players is just wrong. Whoever just randomly chose eleven on eleven.

38:05 Shows wrong. I would fix that. In fact they've already talked about fixing it, the overtime they're gonna reduce players. You notice that when they're talking about fixing their rules for overtime and try to make it so they don't have to go to penalty kicks. They don't talk about adding players. They talk about taking players away. Well that's a hint That

38:22 Even they know that the sport has too many players on the field and it requires you to create a cluey rule called offside. Then you have the penalties. So penalty. Just like in the justice system. The punishment should match the crime.

38:36 The punishments in soccer are either completely meaningless, like oh, we just restart Almost Totally meaningless. Doesn't change the wind probability at all. Or holy cow. The whole game is determined.

38:48 Those are your only two options for your penalties. Hockey has some easy ones. five minutes out where you're down a man. There are all these options they can come to. So penalties are terrible.

38:59 They have just dumb stuff like the clock counts the wrong way. I mean just like Honestly, they came up with a set of rules and sixteen, ten or whatever. And they haven't changed them. And They're just poorly constructed.

39:12 It's a great example of The World Cup just demonstrated this how incredibly exciting it can be to watch a game. And then if you're a casual fan, which so many in the US are, like they're tuning in usually just for the World Cup, maybe a couple of other things. Like what the hell's going on here? So this guy steps one foot.

39:26 inside the box and all of a sudden you get a penalty shot. It just doesn't make any sense. They misconstrued like correlation to causation is a huge problem. So they'll do a few things like Well, soccer's the most popular sport in the world, so the rules must be okay. No, those don't follow. Those two things don't follow.

39:44 It's the most popular sport because it's actually a really good sport. Uh I love You only use your feed. It's been around forever. There's a lot of amazing things to do with soccer, but the rules is not the thing that makes it famous. Second, they'll take the top teams to your point on resources.

40:00 The top teams of soccer are like five X, ten X. Some of their opponents at times. Sometimes even a hundred X they'll be in. Like an FA cup and some of these things, like you'll see these resource differentials. And they'll be like This team

40:12 The way they play. Is optimal. No, no, it's not optimal. They have way better players, so no, you cannot Use that the analogy I use is For example, offensive rebound is a big thing in the NBA right now.

40:25 And there's a really healthy debate between getting back on transition, offensive rebounding and generally The bias if you look at the data is more offensive rebounded, but it's not simple. But a lot of the aspect that people have said is that Oh. Well, all these great teams over the years didn't offense rebound, so therefore it's the wrong thing. I'm like, Well, okay, well, in two thousand two, that same data would have said

40:46 Don't shoot three pointers'cause all the good teams That won the title didn't shoot three pointers, and we know that was wrong. Easiest way I describe correlation to causation MBA is that If you took the top teams in the league this year, Boss, then

41:00 Us, I think, Milwaukee, Cleveland. Denver. And you say okay, the first possession of every game Roll the ball out of bounds. That's gonna be the first play of every game.

41:11 Guess what? We'd still win most of our games. And I would say A hundred percent of the good teams throw the ball out of the bounce. To start the game. We should all be doing that. That's clearly a good strategy. So I just get so bothered by some of the counter arguments.

41:25 From the soccer folks when I talked to them. The rules need to be fixed. It would make your sport way better. I love the sport as it is, but it could be way, way better. What about college football or fresh off of like a overwhelming crushing game where to your point about

41:40 part of the excitement of sports is Not knowing who's gonna win and Everyone has sort of SEC fatigue with the same couple of SEC teams winning everything. How would you change college football? I can't figure out how to do this right, but If a sport could come up with a good comeback mechanism.

41:54 That would be huge. So the one I've thought of in the MBA is that If you're behind You make a line near the half court line and if you shoot it, you cut the difference in half. Unfortunately what that would've devolved into is a lot of half court shots, which might not be all that interesting. But

42:10 When an NBA team's up thirty or a college team has just happened is up by I don't know, forty or whatever it was in the second quarter or whatever it ended up being. You want some comeback mechanism so the poor announcers aren't like oh There's still plenty of time left and everyone's like, What? There's not plenty of time left? The announcers get

42:29 Completely screwed because these games will be out of hand and We're supposed to pretend that it's still interesting to tune in. It's frustrating. What about outside of sport? I'm especially interested in movies and music. I think I've heard you say elsewhere

42:42 In music, there's this funny phenomenon for Artist first album tending to be their best. Why that is. And just observations you have about how those systems work. If you think about the first album someone releases

42:55 They've had to run the Iron Man triathlon. Unless they have like a famous parent or something like that. They've had to drag themselves through the muck. of playing in small clubs and Fine tuning their own music while they play cover songs most likely at points.

43:13 And they've had to work their whole lives refining The first thing that they come out with And then After that hits. They're asked to like turn around and do the same thing in

43:26 One tenth the amount of time. It just sets everyone up to fail. Is my feeling on this. So this is why I got into business book summaries. When I was younger

43:36 Because I was like these business books are awful. The condensed version is way better. than the three hundred page version that they're required to do so they can get on the speaking circuit and get paid and all that kind of stuff. The only things I'll read that are longer are fiction or whatever, basically. You think about business book sales as a game that is just

43:54 The incentives are so horribly misaligned to produce any sort of quality. But I've seen firsthand they like Hey, buddy, can you buy like boxes of this book? And I know the New York Times tries to adjust for it, but You know, it's spy versus spy now on who gets up on the best seller list and then who reads a book anymore anyway. I know there's been some famous tweet threads about this, but like Does someone have good data on who's actually reading books anymore? It has to be like

44:20 Vanishingly small. The Kindle data. Which they have published some of. It's horrible. First you gotta buy the books and no one even buys the books, but

44:29 Once you buy the book, it's a single digit percentage of the book gets read, percentage of the words in the book get read by the reader, like No one's actually reading these things. We see in podcasts, like we wanna see ninety percent or more of the people that start an episode finish it. Like that's good. In books it's like Nothing. Like nobody ever finishes anything.

44:46 I was talking to Ben Thompson about this. I was reading Stripetry. And then he told me, Oh I started the podcast and it's just Me reading.

44:56 The thing I write. And I was like People Do that and then I started doing it. I was like This is great.

45:05 I can do it on my way to the coffee shop and on the way to work, so It's actually better for the times when my ears aren't occupied and I'm Just having to drive to work. I'd love to ask you about the advice you might have for the management of one's career. You've had a really interesting career with a

45:20 Pretty clear through line. applying this same curious filter on lots of different domains, maybe basketball most dominantly. What would you tell people that Have that spark of curiosity.

45:33 that are beginning a career or switching a career or something. that you think has been a productive thing or things that you think you've done wrong. Things not to do. when just managing oneself and managing one's own career. The number one thing that I'd tell especially younger folks now.

45:48 And that's to not accept the operating system that you've been handed. So of course I have to think about it in a computer science way. I happen to, in my opinion be born without a lot of the Basic

46:02 instincts that other people were born with. For whatever reason that might be I wasn't very natural getting to know other kids. I wasn't very good As a child. Just again common sense type stuff. weren't common to me. And so I learned at a young age that I had to like learn all these things on my own.

46:22 I was always constantly replacing The thing I was doing Something better. It became very natural to me and it took me a while to realize other people

46:31 Maybe don't do this. So this is why it's become maybe reasonable advice for people. They tend to do things when they're younger. Where they're like This is the way I do things. When I go to parties I'm not the one who's obsequious to go talk to

46:46 there because that's what other people do. I'm not that person. They develop their own brand image in their head. I'm sure there's better psychology terms for these things. Um The thing I try to help young people realize is that you don't have to keep that same script. You can become inconsistent to your past.

47:04 So Just because you were always the guy who did X And that's become part of your brand and you feel like that's almost part of your ego. Not ego in the negative sense, but you like The thing that you are as a person

47:18 You can replace those things over time. The reason I started with that is that I'm constantly and generally the people I like to hire. They're constantly saying Here's how I operate. Here's my mental model for how this business works or how

47:32 This works. But as soon as I hear something that could be I'm looking for how to adopt it. I'm looking for Just like in an operating system.

47:42 There's a file system, a way files are managed, or a way that you retrieve data using your data structures. As soon as I hear a better one, I'm gonna see maybe that one I can replace. With the one that I'm using now. You'd be surprised. People don't even realize that they can take a step back and change.

47:59 the personal brand or their personal way that they're operating. I'm always curious about this question of Things that happen to people that seem bad at the time, but turn out to be very good with the benefit of hindsight. What is that for you? Is it that way you grew up that you described, or does that bring something else to mind?

48:15 No, that's a hundred percent it and When I tell my kids My struggles as a youth. They don't really believe me, I think. They only know me.

48:25 It's all worked out. Yeah, yeah. It's all worked out and It wasn't until I was probably sixteen or something that I felt like I Even had a friend or two that I could rely on. So People tend to hire like and that I try to control for that'cause it can be a bad thing.

48:44 A very bad thing. Obviously my kids are gonna have everything and do have everything. They're older now. I find that I can't help them much because they have not had to struggle on certain aspects the way that you or I did. Everyone has gonna have a different Journey and struggle set and Mine is so different from theirs that I actually often have trouble giving them

49:06 Any sort of meaningful Guidance at times. I'm really interested by This notion You're a perfect example of very

49:15 high agency or independent minded people, like people that would show up to a situation And just sort of wonder about something from first principles, like in every situation, like they can almost can't help themselves. And these people tend to become very resourceful. And One of the questions that I saw somewhere recently that I think is a great way to source podcast guests is the following. If you were stuck in a prison.

49:36 In a third world country. And you had to call just one person. To get you out. Who would you call? I would probably call

49:44 Seapac, Mallotroad, Harvard Business School. Negotiation. I've been through some very, very tough times famously that People could Google Main.

49:55 He's got a way of thinking through and solving problems and creativity that's Super helpful. And his Roldex isn't It's not like he's Speed dialing Obama or something like that.

50:07 But I think you had helped me Think through like Okay, you've got a Whatever the Trope in movies that might be true. He

50:15 Be able to tell me you gotta beat the crap out of someone immediately, or or they're gonna take advantage of you, or whatever it might be like. It was really closer actually to uh Terrible story. Brittany Griner Who was Think for a short time it turned out, thankfully, was put into like one of the worst

50:33 Situations in the world in Russia. Um What she had to figure out and Thing through. I don't know her at all, so I don't know.

50:43 But yeah, you're kind of right. I always go back to first principles on everything. That's why I'm such a free speech advocate. People are too quick. to You know, and Stephen Covey and Ben Franklin and others had this where You wanna always have a gap between stimulus and response in your life.

51:00 You never want to respond immediately. It's one of the things that Makes us the top species on earth. is having that gap and almost every animal doesn't. And I think that happens in social media and all these places where people have eliminated that gap.

51:16 They just go straight to anger or outrage or whatever that drives clicks. First is taking a step back. I'll give an example, Trump on Twitter. I hated Trump on Twitter so much. I mean, I can't even tell you how miserable my wife was.

51:31 That the guy I don't follow on purpose. Would end up in my timeline. All the time. With the dumbest stuff. Ever and the fact that I had to pay attention to that he's the president

51:44 Throw me absolutely bonkers. But I completely thought it was the wrong thing to have him off Twitter. Because If you think about the larger principles at stake It's the wrong thing.

51:55 I hate every moment of it, but Not enough of that kind of thought process happens where people say Some day this apparatus that's now conveniently helping me might get turned against me. If you don't have these first principles, you can get completely lost in those kinds of decisions. You mentioned the dean at Harvard and I know

52:15 Not the dean. He's a he's a professor. Professor. I know you took a negotiation class there. What stands out in memory from that? What was that experience like? Why'd you do it? What'd you take from it? So it was the MBA lockout in two thousand eleven, and I was like, How can I make this the most productive thing I can possibly do?

52:34 I was pretty self taught in negotiation. And I felt like I had read all the books and done enough, but I was like, You know what? Maybe I haven't. Maybe I can pick something up, and that turned out to be absolutely the case that I took a two week

52:47 You literally live in a dorm at Harvard. It's an interesting program that Harvard's put together. You get thrown in with a bunch of people you'd have on your podcast, executives. And you take on Negotiat problems. I found it to be

53:02 Extraordinarily helpful, but probably mostly for meeting deep hook. And At some level I sort of Broke things. Everyone had different expertise coming in. There are certain things that I like knew cold and

53:14 Tried to stay in the background, but then they'd put us into groups and Make you do exercises And I was like Okay. This is not a good exercise for me. But a lot of'em are good. Probably the most valuable one besides Deep's.

53:27 Course. was um The implicit biases we all have. Just some really crazy ones I don't know if you heard like If people's eyes are near their

53:37 Noses. People just naturally discount what they say. And that's been studied heavily. To the point where like Everyone's like

53:47 Are my eyes near my nose? Look, I mean we're these evolved creatures. And we see them more tribal, which has been the buzzword of the day. But that's very true. It's much easier to create in and out groups and be part of a team to bring our sports analogies

54:04 When I saw politics turn into like all the craziness around Trump and even a little bit before Trump. It reminded me completely of sports. Everyone says crazy ass stuff. Because that drives interest. Whether it be Stephen A. Smith who's like

54:19 Actually a super smart guy. Knows exactly what he's doing. He's hacked the KPIs. Of being a top sportscaster. It would be the first thing you would do, Patrick, if you were like Okay, now you're gonna be one of these ESPN talking head sportscaster.

54:35 You would absolutely figure out in the first One two days of studying it. Okay, I just have to say the craziest Stuff with the slightest shred Colonel of truth. Colonel of truth. Yeah, I'll just do that over and over and I'll be making ten million a year at some point. You would figure that out.

54:52 instantly and that whole model felt like it came to politics. Politics used to be There was this trend of We're trying to accomplish something bigger for people in the world and the country. But unfortunately that got drowned out by the incentives of the structure, which is just Winning here.

55:09 Primary What required attention. It was all the attention stuff that sports and innovative first. So anyway, back that class was a big one was All these evolved I see that

55:21 If you have to consciously work as a human To overcome these biases. Almost for sure no one's doing it. Because no one likes to do conscious work. Especially in certain areas of their life. And

55:34 That was a big one. Just all these heuristics that we've developed and evolved that you don't even know. are there and I started thinking of draft picks. I'm like, do I think this draft pick is worse? I know this is a case. Billy Bean talks about it really well. But he benefited from this. He looked like

55:51 The perfect graphic. And he does. Even when you see him older, he looks like a guy who could still play. And These hearistics of

56:00 watching these players even how they move and how fluid their movements are. To really trick you. To the point where I use Michael Lewis's principle, which is like If there's a player who looks completely different. succeeding in their area.

56:16 They're probably even an extra cut above Everyone else in that industry'cause they've had to Battle that bias each step. And overcome. It's like women. breaking into many industries or minorities breaking into industries or

56:30 Anyone who looks different breaking into anything. You have to be extra good relative to everyone else, or The immune system Of that industry is going to reject you. The T cells of the white blood cells are gonna come and

56:44 They're gonna make sure you are eliminated from that area unless you are way better than everyone else. On the negotiation class, was there any one thing that was like an aha moment for you? That you've used since That you would recommend people think about when negotiating? I'd say probably the number one I liked was

57:01 Post negotiation negotiation. So that's After you shake hands deal. Often during the negotiation you have to sort of Not be super clear sometimes about your true values of certain things. Once you have a deal though, and you actually there's trust on both sides, and that's true in basketball because it's a repeating game.

57:20 So once there's trust and you've said deal. Then you can say like okay. We have a deal. That deal's always gonna happen. But now that we have that deal.

57:30 I will be more open to how I'm valuing all my things in the deal and other possible ones. If we can come up by working together and now every card's on the table. A better deal? Let's see if we can do that. I'll give an example.

57:45 In our sport in the collective marketing agreement. There's certain players you have to put in just to match salary. And The proposal we made that you said deal to We included this player.

57:57 But We're actually just as fine. To include these other three players. If you want to select that And maybe you make the second round pick that you include slightly better because you're gonna get a slightly better deal here.

58:10 Often it's a little hard to do because sometimes our deadlines get in the way. Once you have a deal at the trade deadline, for example, they won't let you modify it, but if it's a deal done around the draft, You can do that, but yeah, I would encourage And I've seen this in many industries. People don't do this that Once a deal is done.

58:28 Try to then negotiate a slightly better deal for both sides. As I think about who I want to go after in the world and learn from I'm always curious for people like you, who intrigues you in the world. If you were putting together the classic four person dinner party with you and three others.

58:44 What to you would be like the perfect night for you. And you could know these people or not. What three people would you pick? And I'm curious kinda why. I'm really interested in talking to Gauss. The distribution. Well, no, not the distribution, but because he was

58:59 Thought to be one of the smartest people ever lived. So I just want to see if the hype lives up to it. So that would be probably One. I would want to talk to Ben Franklin. His style

59:12 At least as far as I've read it in history. Fits mine the most, at least as it's evolved. So my style's very much involved. I tend to hang back a lot. I tend to like let the systems operate.

59:25 And do little nudges. to take Richard Taylor Nudge sort of paradigm out there. I tend to let things play out. When it's part of the system that I think is functioning, operating well.

59:37 And then only Get very involved when I see it's heading in the wrong direction or some macro thing is being missed. That could lead to a bigger thing and When you read history the lore is that Ben Franklin was extremely good at that.

59:52 He's not even thought of as a good negotiator, Ben Franklin, but my sense from reading history is he was He seems like he like saw the matrix in like an interesting way. Oh, and he's one of the all time great inventors. That's too I know this is

1:00:05 Maybe the hot One. I'd probably want to talk to MacNamara. Or Oppenheimer. Well can I have five? Are you kind of me as the four? Give it five.

1:00:15 Okay, I've bought so I'd want to talk to McNamara because he famously Maybe use data. They paint him as somebody who's data incorrectly. And I wanna find out if that's true. I'd wanna like get his take. And draw my own conclusion. on whether or not he applied data incorrectly or he's just been sort of painted as someone who hit on eleven and got a three, you know I mean?

1:00:37 And then Oppenheimer You know, I know there's a movie coming out now, but I read the History of the making of the atomic bomb and His ability to mobilize things that are

1:00:48 Almost unmobilizable? I'd wanna know How much of that was the will he put into it and how much is signal, how much is noise to what he did generated that outcome. hell of a dinner party. I'm picturing like the table and the meal. It would just be like so amazing to be at that table.

1:01:05 I knew that this was gonna happen, which was that we're gonna talk for an hour and a half and I'm gonna get through like one third of the topics that I wanted to cover. But still great nonetheless. That's completely my fault. I tend to just talk Not at all. We'll do follow ups in years to come, I'm sure.

1:01:19 I'm forced sadly to go to my traditional closing question. What is the kindest thing that anyone's ever done for you? I would probably reference Sam so Sam Hanke has a very famous letter. That he wrote to ownership that he didn't want public. But this is part of his thing and I haven't been able to replicate it, even though I want to. He wrote me a letter when he left.

1:01:41 You sent to Philadelphia that still on my safe. Like who puts a letter in their safe? It's still in my safe. It was very kind of him to take the time to do that. Yeah, I've had him a few times and I think people that listen to that can understand

1:01:54 The degree. To which I have a friend that says excellents. is defined for each person by the most excellent thing they've seen. So if you've seen something more excellent. It's actually an advantage for you because it stretches your definition and

1:02:06 The definition that you then go the fill up? And I feel like that was Sam in a lot of things. But maybe most of all interpersonal investment and dynamics.

1:02:16 So love hearing that answer, although I'm not surprised by it. I'll remember that one. For sure. Daryl, this has been a total blast. Thank you so much for the time and I cannot wait to do a follow up. Thanks so much for having me, Patrick. It's been too long.

1:02:28 Of a long time listener. First time caller. Thanks so much. If you enjoyed this episode, check out Join Colossus.com. There you'll find every episode of this podcast complete with transcripts, show notes, and resources to keep learning.

1:02:42 You can also sign up for our newsletter, Colossus Weekly, where we condense episodes to the big ideas, quotations, and more, as well as share the best content we find on the internet every week.

What you see above is a preview of the first minutes. One unlock costs 10 credits and covers this episode forever: full segment and word-level timestamps on this page, plus .txt, .srt, .vtt and word-level JSON downloads, as many times as you like.