Sara Bareilles On: Songs That Write Themselves, Grief That Doesn't Destroy You, and Why There's Nothing To Fix

0:04 Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Ten Percent Happier Podcast. I'm your host, Dan Harris. Uh Pop songs generally cover romantic love. I um I've recently did a search. Uh for how many songs contain the words I want you and I think and this is a while ago, I think it was like scores, if not hundreds, of songs. However, there are some great pop songs that cover uh weightier, heavier stuff like grief, uh if you think about um Let It Be

0:34 Uh Paul McCartney sings about his late mother. Uh Mother Mary. Um also artists like Beyonce and um and Kanye and Frank Ocean have written and sung about grief. And now comes my friend uh Sarah Barellis. Who has recorded a whole album which comes out today. on the subject of grief. It's called Good Grief and it is accompanied by a documentary which is quite beautiful and a whole tour. Um if you have never heard of Sarah

1:05 I don't know uh what's the matter with you, but if you've never heard of Sarah, she's a uh a Grammy winning songwriter, the composer and star of Waitress on Broadway, and much, much more. And a friend of mine, as I said. Sarah Barellis. Welcome back to the show. Hello, Daniel. I um

1:22 Sometimes ask people, especially when I have somebody on the show who I know, I ask a question that is it it might seem perfunctory or tossed off, but I genuinely wanna know the answer, which is uh uh how are you? What's going on? You know, I'm a little wobbly. I'm a little wobbly right now. Um I think being on I had breakfast with my husband this morning, Joe, and um

1:47 I it was occurring to me that being on the precipice of sharing This body of work To the degree that it will be shared. Is Just a really it's like an OD in vulnerability vulnerability. And me, I love vulnerability. Don't get me wrong. I love to cry in front of people. I'm not mad about it.

2:08 But um It's a really tender Very personal. offering and so I think there is the part of me that's like Oh, I hope people like it. You know, the powerlessness of that. Or it's like you release this thing that you love and you hope other people are.

2:27 I kind to it in some way. Or that it means something to someone else in some way. I hear you. I hear you on the wobblingness, that seems. I mean if you weren't, um, you there might be a question of like Socio pathology. Um Given how vulnerable uh you are making yourself in this in this in this like Uh not only in the record, but also in the in the documentary. But so I'll just say I'm I'm like just one person and I'm totally biased, but I've been listening to the record and watching the documentary. Both are beautiful. You had played me a couple of songs from the record beforehand, so I was a

3:03 I had heard some of the work, but now like listening to it in its entirety, it's amazing. So congratulations. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. I think for the first time in my career, in my artistic career, There is a kind of integration happening between I don't feel like I'm presenting a body of work that is misaligned with what's happening in my personal life, where I'm I don't have to go and put on a dog and pony show.

3:31 And and feel like you know, behind the scenes there's this other thing happening, this, you know. the grieving or the whatever it is, you know, I think in in in the past It's like when it's Time to release a record. It's time to go and

3:47 Do the song and dance thing. And this whole Offering feels more like an art project. It feels more integrated. Just as a piece of art and as a as it relates to my life. So that feels great, actually. And I thought that that would be really scary, even though I feel a little wobbly, but I feel really um

4:09 It's a very empowered place, actually, that there's not something that there's not some secret I'm keeping from everybody, you know, behind the work. I could imagine like t past past projects like Girls Five Ever the c comedy you did or Waitress or whatever you you were you know in its various iterations on Broadway and then there was also a movie like you're out there promoting something that's fun or or um a a little bit light, um, and you've got some Sturman Drong or heavy shit happening in your personal life and you you don't it doesn't make sense to talk about that in that context.

4:42 Oh, totally. I mean the first season of Girls Five Baba I was having a full on dissociated episode and h got on Lexa Pro for the first time. Like taking anti anxiety medication for the first time and I would they would call cut I mean on set and I would go to my dressing room and like have

4:59 full on panic attacks and I know you get it. And then I have to go and like Pretend I'm happy again. That is very disorienting. So

5:11 I feel grateful that that's not. At Clay. You know, for this record. Of all records, my gosh. What do you do when you're feeling wobbly? Like what's your go to?

5:20 You know, it's really helpful to talk about it. Like even I was so looking forward to this. podcast and to end this conversation with you because But I I have found like I would I have the expectation that we would talk about real shit on here. But

5:36 I have found that Because the material on the record Yeah. hit certain themes that generally the conversations have been really beautiful and kind of deep and a little bit emotionally charged. Like, you know, the interviewers might have a story about grief or loss or infertility or Something. Um and I have found

5:57 kind of overall, it's been really beautiful. So I don't know what I'm scared about. It's kind of been I like the the data doesn't support Me being scared about how this is gonna go. It's funny, the the the the release itself, the press tour could actually be the solution to the problem, which is also the release itself.

6:20 Yes. I think that's all. The medicine. Yeah. Yeah, one of my favorite expressions is never worry alone. And like promoting this work is kind of like um never worrying alone, like you're gonna be worrying aloud.

6:33 And I think that that's where The wisdom You know. comes from sharing with other people and then just those little points of connection. And always I mean this is always the case, or at least it has been in my experience is that

6:48 When you put name to the feelings it's like the feelings of dread or the wobbliness or whatever it might be. The more you're just sort of Making it. real and something you're actually relating to, the less power it has. And so

7:02 It's helpful. I think to just be in conversation with it and about it. Therapy cliches, which I happen to think is True is you know, name it to tame it. I came up with that.

7:15 Did you invent the first time that's the first time that's my move? What if that was my move on this press tour is just to lay claim to like a bunch of random Yeah. Yeah, that's mine. Yeah. Yeah, I do I think that is powerful and I think it's really true.

7:35 It's like it just is helpful. The name it. So let's talk about the record. Um Good Grief. Is not I mean it is a play on words, but like you're you're actually kinda playing it straight. Like you you

7:49 I think you mean that there is a good version of grief and there's goodness in grief itself. You know, the double meaning is helpful. It's like the exhaustion, you know, the expression that It's something my mom actually says all the time. Oh, good grief.

8:04 And I always feel so like. old fashioned when it comes but it does come out of my mouth when it's like, Oh, you drop You drop something Oh, good grief. Yeah, I really my experience with grief has been Just Utterly transformative.

8:19 And I Even though I There are things about the circumstances that the grief is born out of that I wish I could change. For example, my I have two friends who passed away that I would love to still be on this earth with.

8:35 But the experience of The grief has been so life changing for me. that I actually just feel really grateful. For What has felt like um

8:49 A kind of miracle. of g of walking through A tremendous amount of pain and loss. Um But really seeing

9:00 Just how much Awe and mystery and What is life affirming about Death. And

9:08 Just how complex the experience of loss can be. So in some ways I wouldn't change it. You know, of course I wish I have my friends, but I I feel like I'm more the person that I'm meant to become. Because of losing them. And

9:22 Um Yeah. So I really thank them for what has changed in me. In my in my grief. What is the mechanism by which grief changes you? Andrea Gibson is this wonderful poet.

9:36 That I was involved with this documentary about their life called Come See Me in the Good Light. And one of the things Andrea says is that grief is a shortcut to the truth. And I think it's so Tenderizing.

9:51 And it's so overwhelming. That There's a kind of rawness. about your expression that just comes to the surface. It's sort of like An impulsivity

10:02 that gets released because your sort of wrong out. Um And so I think that Grief can

10:12 Bring you a kind of Presence. There's a there's like a presence to the to the present moment. an awakeness and awareness at the present moment.

10:22 Because it's s because the experience is so Big. And so overwhelming. I suppose I could see that going in another way where it could also feel very disorienting, but in my experience. Uh it has been A reminder

10:37 And the lesson is to stay really Awake and aware. Um What is actually in front of you. This idea that we're not promised another day.

10:47 Brings you to a sense of gratitude for the day you do have. Which is the Only day you have, which is the one you're in. You know, all of this, of course, being stuff that gets talked about so much in meditation practice. Um, you know, just this moment, this breath, this

11:04 Um which I I sort of love. Not at all. Orbits each other. Yeah, I was I was just gonna go there because I know you have

11:13 imbibed no small amount of Buddhism and uh'cause I've been in the room with you while while it's happened, listening to the same teachers. Um you know, and and Joseph Goldstein who's a meditation teacher for Yeah. You know he has He he often quotes this expression from From the Buddha, the words are becoming otherwise. Everything is always becoming otherwise. Everything's always changing. And grief as

11:40 You know At losing someone as horrifying as that is, it It does put you in touch with this non negotiable truth. I don't know how you really wrap your arms around that. Unless you lose

11:54 Someone Because we just live in a culture and a I mean globally. Denial that we're gonna die. Then of course we do. It's so uh understandable. Because if you sat around and thought about the fact that you're gonna die all the time, just seems so

12:11 But I think that um Pink. What a the privilege and the honor of of Witnessing someone sort of walking.

12:24 I I Yeah. I am a different person because of that. The bravery.

12:33 The honesty, the generosity that came out of that. The surrender. The surrender of It is out of our control. This life is out of our control.

12:45 That is wild. The trick in my experience is remembering or not forgetting because you can have this experience of watching somebody walk to the end of their days to use your Your expression.

13:00 And then I have found that it's Pretty easy to get pulled back into like distraction and persona and all the other forms of bullshit that I personally am capable of. And I mean maybe making this record for you is a way of not forgetting.

13:17 felt like it kind of arrived from somewhere. It felt like a sort of transmission. And I think some of that Is I was so raw, but I also Have

13:29 more dead friends than I've ever had before. And I'm just like thinking about Where do we go? What happens? Where are they? You know, like there's just a kind of that veil is thin thing. It feels very real to me. Um And It does feel like

13:48 A place to gather. Thoughts about this without really having any answers, but just to gather myself. and put it somewhere. I do feel so grateful to have that expression. You know.

14:01 available to me that I can put it in music. And that also feels like Something that I can offer up. You know, to hopefully they will it will feel comforting to other people because I know I'm not the only one.

14:16 Holding it. That we're all That's been another incredible gift of grief. Of just seeing It is the invisible web that is in every room you'll ever be in, every street you ever walk down, people carry their loss.

14:30 And most of them are never talking about it. But everybody's got it. Yes, and I think the fact that most of them are never talking about it is really painful for them, for us. And I think one of the acts of service you've done in in making this record and the and the accompanying documentary. A few things before we hear from our sponsors, I just wanna gently nudge you if you haven't done it already. to go over to danharris.com and sign up for my new ish meditation app, ten percent with Dan Harris.

14:58 I am so proud of what we're doing over there. We've got all of these live video sessions. At least once a week. Where you can meditate with me or one of our amazing teachers and then get your questions answered. We've also got courses from legendary teachers like Sharon Salzburg and Joseph Goldstein. We've got a growing library of guided meditations from teachers like Sharon and Joseph, but also Seven A. Selassie, Jeff Warren. And on and on.

15:24 But really the secret sauce is community. It is so hard to boot up or maintain a meditation practice and one of the things that really helps is doing it in the carpool lane and that's what we have set up Over on the app. Go to danharris dot com. There's a free fourteen day trial if you want to check it out before you buy.

15:42 We'll be right back after this. Just so people are familiar and because I I do want to talk about some of the messages and some of the songs, but I think there were three f people you lost. There were three losses kind of In your uh mind as you wrote and recorded the record.

16:04 Oh, you mentioned Andrea and but there were two two other people. Do you mind just kind of walking us through the players here? Oh my dead friends, as I joke about with my friends. Incredible dead friends. Um Chad Joseph is is uh the first one of my very close friends to have passed away. Um he was very Beloved to you know my friend community I met him in college

16:31 And there's a song on the record called Just a Kid that's Really about Chad. Cad and I met When we both came back from our year abroad, studying abroad, he went to England. I was in Italy. And we

16:42 commiserated about the fact that Um, we got back from our entire year being gone. We went to UCLA. And everyone's was like how was your summer And we were both like you know I was

16:55 I wasn't here at all last year. You haven't seen me in a year and a half. People are like, How's your summer? I'm like, Oh, we're really making a big impression. But it was incredible that we were both having that experience and then we really And he was just one of the funniest people I've ever known in my life. And so We just laughed a lot together and we moved in I was going to school for five years, so in my senior year My fifth year.

17:23 He was already working and we got a little apartment together and he was my first manager, my first road manager. He was with me as of the beginnings of my career were really taking root. was at every show holding the email list. sending out C D to people. He was just the Um an invaluable part of the beginning of my

17:45 Life as an artist. And really kind of sacrificed his own He was working at a PR firm at that time and he quit his job to come with me on the road because I was so overwhelmed. And that

18:01 You know, that I sort of honor that. We gave up your dream for mine is a lyric from that song. And it was Just one of those pivotal moments where I'm like, I actually don't know what I would have done if he hadn't got on the plane and met me on tour. I think I would have

18:19 I really don't know what I would have done. It was life saving. It felt life saving in the moment. Um And we were just Yeah, friends were decades after that and Um

18:30 He died in twenty twenty. So Banner Year. But we all love that 2020. Um, and the other very dear friend that I lost

18:42 is uh Gavin Creole. And he was a Broadway darling and I've one of the one of my most confusing relationships because I met him and I was Actually felt like I had fallen in love with him, and he's a very, very, very gay man. I was like, this is clearly not gonna work out in my favor, but I

19:02 Really felt. Like I had fallen in love with his soul. And I did, I did, I fell in love with his soul. And he taught me so much. He's um again a very beloved member of the theater community and also in the West End in in London.

19:19 But in New York Theater, he was just one of those Oh boy. He was like a sparkler. He just he brought light and generosity and fun and childlike Joy into every room he was in. And

19:35 And then he was gone. It was so fast between his diagnosis and his death was just a few months. So it was a really Disorienting I was saying to someone, he f he feels like a dream. It was like the

19:51 Experience of him. Was so profound. And then it's g it's like as as surreal to me that he ever happened as it is that he's gone. It's it's a very strange experience.'Cause he wasn't in my life for You know, forty years he was

20:10 He was like I got like ten years with this guy. I mean and I wish we would have grown old together, but Um What an amazing gift.

20:19 Of a life. And Andrea like surprisingly, really they feel like a little Trinity to me, there's a little trifecta of them. And they all have this For those who are not familiar with Andrea Gibson's work. Um, they were the poet laureate of Colorado.

20:35 Unbelievable writer. Just one of the most Profound thinkers. When I think of Andrea's work, I really r I refer to them as a prophet. I really think it's like spiritual guidance that I get from Andrea's work. Um

20:50 Andrea. dealt with a lot of years of um suicidality and major, major depression. And they talked about when they got their cancer diagnosis. They went into this state of rapture. And they for like two years they were In love.

21:10 With life. And it was this strange thing, they were always afraid of getting sick, always like super hyp hypochondriac and really afraid of getting sick. And also had Crazy depression and then Got sick.

21:24 And it was like the greatest gift that ever happened to their life. Um But this film about Andrea's life, Come See Me in the Good Light is a really extraordinary, so funny. You wouldn't think that a queer poet's cancer journey would be like a great watch, but it really, really is. It is so life affirming.

21:43 Um, but the three of them s those three people really carry A kind of magic. Each one of them carried a kind of magic that I almost can't believe was real. And it just makes me want to live in their honor.

21:58 To the degree that I can. You talk about all of them when there's a real sparkle in your eye while you're doing it and And yet I uh if I understand correctly, like when when you were really going through it, there were times where you thought like the grief would eat you alive. Yeah, it felt akin to when I would go into really deep anxious like m I had like my

22:22 Hurricane of Anxiety, depression. It was almost like the feeling is too big to hold. Like I I actually had the physical sensation of like I'm gonna Dissolve.

22:37 into This bigger experience. And the The wonderful insanity of those kinds of experiences is that the truth is is you don't dissolve.

22:50 If you can just stay. Your You will survive. It is painful. But the grief won't eat you.

23:00 Alive. It won't. And the more You Allow it to be

23:09 the less power it has over Over you. I think I think that's true. But yeah, I remember

23:17 Being upstate and Calling my husband and just being like I It's making me cheerful. I didn't want to go to sleep.

23:27 I was like afraid. I didn't want to turn the TV off. And I was just really afraid of my grief.

23:35 And it was But it won't. Um Ultimately. Make you dissolve.

23:45 What you discover is that like There is no bottom. To any of it. It's just that incredible free fall that we're in.

23:53 Mm. The groundlessness. That gets discussed so often. And the surrender that is necessary.

24:01 in order to relate to what is actually happening. Yeah. I'm sorry it was so hard. Uh and and I feel like um What you're describing and displaying here is is courage.

24:15 To just sit with it. To feel what you don't think you can take. I feel really lucky to have discovered Yeah.

24:24 Another one of my great discoveries. I discovered Lexapro, which was really helpful for the world. Um But I oh my God, I don't know what I would do without these other resources. Like, you know, I'm someone who takes medication, but I also am a meditator. I I'm in therapy very regularly. I you know, I use the tools at my disposal to manage what sometimes feels unmanageable. And it's not Linear. It's not always pretty. It's

24:54 better than the alternative, which for me was always like a kind of A frozen Fearful state. Which I don't I don't I don't experience that.

25:04 Nearly as often as I used to. So if I understand correct just for people who don't know Lexapro is an antidepressant, um Uh I have I just want to be super clear to you and to everybody else.

25:19 I take an antidepressant and have for mm decades. So I'm not asking these questions uh from a standpoint of unfamiliarity or judgment. When you started taking it, if memory serves, you had some resistance that it might like fuck up your art. I had So much resistance. It was more than fuck up my heart. It was like, who am I if I can't handle

25:41 My life. Who am I if I'm trying to Suppressed. Or put distance between what is clearly a very natural

25:52 state of being. I mean I've always been someone I don't even like taking aspirin. Like I'm just like I like to know what my body is feeling. And I think that my deepest fear around taking medication Was that something would feel some part

26:06 Essential part of myself would feel suppressed. That I would feel distance. And I Actually and I talk about this a lot is that What I experienced being on medication to feel like is it was a return to myself.

26:20 And I started recognizing myself again rather than who I had started living with and making You know, and and being around all the time, which was a very fearful Kind of paranoid.

26:38 Depressed, anxious. Person. who was having ruminating thoughts, who was um Fixating on weird problems, just like terrible Sl

26:52 You know, this is like not a good Um quality of life. The quality of my life is so much better. On medication. And

27:02 If I'm honest, I still have that I'm curious to ask you this question. There's a part of me that's like, Am I ever gonna get Like Enlightened enough. To get off meds. Do you think about that?

27:13 I think about it uh quite a bit. Um not only am I ever gonna get enlightened enough to get off meds, but You know, they didn't have meds until recently, and so um Am I just a Whoce for not being able to manage what people have managed for millennia. But I I think m what I've come to is a

27:35 Different P O V. I'd be curious about yours, but but Like I use a telephone and I go to the dentist and I drive a car, all relatively recent discoveries. Um and so why would I not avail myself of these new technologies which can relieve suffering? In my conversations with Joseph Goldstein his point of view is like you you should Definitely.

27:59 avail yourself of it if you need it. You know? Like you we all have different nervous systems and brain chemistry. And if there's um medicine that can treat that to to do exactly what you described, which is to I sometimes when when I'm on not on the medication or under medicated, it feels like somebody's pulled the fire alarm in my nervous system. Fucking good is gonna happen. in that state. And and so if

28:23 If If you can medicate for it. Go for it. Um I'll just tell you one little story and I'm talking too much, but um Right before a dinner, uh that I think you were at a couple of months ago. Um

28:36 I can't remember if you were there or not, um, but You were invited to me. Yeah. Except it was like when you were in Italy for a year and I didn't notice, you know. Uh my point. You were definitely invited. It was a dinner with a bunch of people that you know. Joseph was staying at our house. uh f uh for a couple of days. Um And right before we were supposed to leave for this dinner, I had a really, really stressful phone call, and my wife was worried about me and she told Joseph

29:04 And I stepped out of a meeting and Joseph and my wife were both like We think you should take a clonipin. Ha ha ha. I love it so much.

29:16 That's a long way of saying, you know, I do think there's uh I think there's a pretty good case to be made for medication if done Wisely. I deeply agree. I just was off it, mostly because I was, if I'm honest, lazy that I just didn't want to make a follow up appointment with my psychiatrist. I see my therapist um almost weekly, but um I gotta you know, I'm making an another appointment and I gotta go to the pharmacy and get so I was like rationing my meds because I was like getting to the end of my bottle of Lexapro.

29:47 And then I'm just like I watch I watch the panic level start to rise, just like you're saying, where it's just like uh My state of like agita is just increasing and increasing, and I'm just watching myself become a little less capable of coping. things knock me over just a little more easily and I'm like

30:11 Why? Am I doing that? What is the point? You know. I think it is if it's a tool that

30:18 Better your quality of life. And makes you more readily available to do the things you do, which I know that for me It does matter to me to be of service in this life, and I know I can't be of service. If I am so distracted by my own

30:35 Whatever. You name it. So it's it's helpful for me to get out of my own way. So I can go be in my life in a way that I think is Hopeful. It's not

30:49 it the wrong formulation of the question is, will I ever get sufficiently enlightened that I don't need the medication? It's If I don't have the medication, will I ever achieve any degree of enlightenment at all? Yeah, yeah, totally. Totally. So just to j jump in on the timeline there, you made a reference of going off of it. So I if if If memory serves you were kinda on for a couple of years and then off right around the time that you recorded this record, not because you

31:16 As you just described, not because you made some affirmative decision to go off of it, but because you were Procrastinating or something. And then you went back on More recently. Is that correct timeline? Going off of it wasn't while I was making the record. It was just actually just a couple months ago. Oh yeah. So Kind of just letting it

31:35 I did try one other time though. Maybe you're remembering a conversation we had. Yeah, I did try one other time to get off of it and it was just It did not work. And I I think there was a part of me, I think it was about a year in Um There's a part of me that just wanted to know

31:53 Like what's in there? And turns out Yeah. Pretty uncomfortable stuff.

32:00 So So so your initial fear was that if you're on medication it would block your ability to make art. You hadn't made much music for a while until this record, like there was a like a four five, maybe longer year interregnum. Um and you you said that the well had run dry, I think. Um So uh yeah, how do you explain all of that? I really experienced

32:24 Uh twenty twenty as Like a before and after I think I was stunned. And just

32:32 silence quite honestly. Like I was so Overwhelmed by What we were watching happen. with the world and politically and I and I think the

32:45 And So much. What felt like cruelty and and I was so I was just stunned. I had nothing to say. About it.

32:53 I couldn't metabolize the experience enough to make anything out of it. And I remember feeling sort of jealous of artist friends who were like making They were doing online concerts and doing things and I just had Nothing.

33:07 to say. And I had a couple of little musical moments that started that year, but they were very sort of private

33:18 One of them being a song called Wind is the Weather. That is my only experience in my whole lifetime of channeling something where I just Pressed record. And the song. I have the audio recording of it. It's just the song was right sort of wrote itself.

33:36 And it felt like a prayer. It felt like a desperate plea. It was on my birthday in twenty twenty. This is uh pre medication and I was like, I'm really gonna lose I'm like losing it here. And this song showed up. And it was just all about

33:52 I am not broken. You cannot break me. Like there's nothing to fix. There's nothing to fix here. There's it's just the weather. Like the wind is the weather. Um, and it was a really profound experience. So that

34:04 Song was actually like one of the last songs to make it onto the record. Um But it was a very slow I mean, I sort of average I would say six to seven years between albums, which is shockingly not so typical for people who are trying to be You know, competitive musical artists like in the

34:25 the pop sphere, they're like, Yeah, we have a really long attention span. But um It's just the pace I work at. I just don't I can't Manufacture it. Very easily. And I do work in other mediums, you know, I have another musical coming out. And so it's not like I'm doing nothing, but um it's it is a really slow process for me.

34:46 It always has been. When you say nothing to fix Say can you say more about that? Uh, because I think that's a very counter cultural notion in this era of optimization, et cetera, et cetera.

35:02 It's the thing I really And it feels like Again another tentative. of meditation practice that is to just be in relationship with what is to just be with

35:18 where you're at without trying to change it or alter it or fix it in any way. And I think I had a friend, my friend Shoshana Bean, actually, she's a wonderful artist, but she said that to me. She's like, You're not Broken, there's nothing There's nothing to fix.

35:37 And I'm really stuck with me. Um And I think about it a lot. I mean, especially aging. I don't know how this

35:48 I've just been thinking a lot about this as a woman aging And being sort of public facing and of course I Can always change my mind about this, but You know, I d haven't

35:58 done anything to my face. I'm not doing anything to my body that is um sort of manipulating what's happening naturally. And it is Hard. Hard to do.

36:11 And I just am watching myself really feel at odds with what the culture is telling me and what Even people will tell me on the internet. Thank you to the man who sent me the She said he's really worrying, worried about the aging in my face. I'm like, Bro Got in line, man. Me too. But like It's it's hard to just be with what actually is.

36:35 So it's when it's like the medication thing comes up for me where I'm like, if I'm trying to be with what actually is here. Why do I allow myself Help in this regard. You know, it's it's a thing I I toss I you know, I chew on in my mind.

36:51 I mean I'm not putting down my medication any time soon. I just think about it, you know. But I'm not doing Botox or I'm not doing no judgment on that. I just this is something that I'm Trying for my For my life.

37:06 Find this thing for my life. Seeing how it's working out. I'm reading an autobiography of the Buddha right now and if I think about And his Life.

37:16 Uh it wasn't an autobiography, obviously he was thinking the biography of the Buddha, my bad. Yeah. Th that'd be quite a find. I'm thinking about the book. Yes. It's called um Uh it's basically Bel Bel Burden's book, but v but a little bit different. He was taking affirmative action in the world. He wasn't like sitting back and Not

37:47 You know, he He uh built this huge body of of um nuns and monks and promulgated this m massive set of teachings and was, you know, trying to intervene and stop wars before they happen, like Y acceptance in a Buddhist concept uh i is like seeing things as they are.

38:09 Yeah. But then this next step is you you do whatever you can out of compassion to to be useful. And so you can see my mind Yeah, you know, and my nervous system are totally tweaked. And it's a compassionate thing for me and by extension the world to

38:26 Treat it. Um similarly You know, with your My with me with my face, I'm also a you know, not as well known as you are, but I've my face is on television and on social media and I have to see it. Um

38:40 I haven't done anything either, but like I wouldn't rule it out. Not not Not in a desperate attempt to pretend impermanence doesn't apply to me, but I think more in that if there's small things I could do to make myself feel better, so I'm less self conscious and more useful to other people, I I would be open to that. I love the um

39:02 The compassion piece. about it. And I think it just applies differently for for every I like that so personal about where Is it Is it compassionate? to yourself or to others to imagine

39:16 What it looks like to just Age naturally, or is it compassionate? to to yourself or others to be like, Yeah, let's l use the tools that are available. To Free up some brain space.

39:29 Totally. I I d I really I think it's so It's so personal. You said something about

39:36 the song arriving as a transmission, like uh when does the weather? And then I think there's another song on the records uh that's called Say Leave. How do you understand uh uh receiving a transmission in that way? So my Philosophy Didn't know a lot of artists share this. Um Is that the you know the music is not

39:55 Mine It just is sort of It's in the ether and it's looking for The portal. And

40:04 it comes through so the these ideas and these stories and these muses per se are are kind of floating around and like my job as a songwriter is kind of To try to Clear the channel. So I can be available to what comes through.

40:21 Um And yeah, Say Leave was another one of those Which this record has a an inordinate amount of these kinds of this is not how I usually right music, it usually feels a little bit more mine. Yeah.

40:36 Celid is um It's Someone else's story. It is not my story, but it just came through and I wrote it upstate in my little house. Up there and that.

40:48 Um There's just so Mm. Much kind of.

40:57 spiritual information up there for me. It's a really sacred place to me and I just About this story kind of. Arrive and I did have a friend who was going through a breakup at the time and I so I wonder if it's a little bit her Story that was coming through me.

41:15 I think it's a Beautiful kind of Letting go. So there's something in letting go that allows you then to receive something new and that's the and that could be a Like a tr a full s uh a song that arrives. Maybe fully formed.

41:29 I think there's it's really interesting to play with like What can kind of feel like the danger like the edge, the growth edge? the dangerous part where you really don't quite know what it is. I feel like Ben Fold said this to me a long time ago. That was a really it stuck with me about when you're in the writing process to kick the editor out of the room to make sure that you're not

41:53 sort of watching yourself. create like just let that playful It's like our most intuitive selves, our child selves, know how to play. We just know how to do that. But as adults we

42:08 Um rules and walls up. And I just think the more we can be in the mystery of what creation actually is, making something from nothing is so Awesome. To let it be as mysterious as I think it actually is.

42:26 We just felt really cool. And also I find it Very um Helpful. to put down the idea of taking ownership over anything. Like it's not

42:37 It's not mine. It's not for me. It's It's for everybody. It's the that makes a lot of sense to me. when I think about what music actually does to the world and to people and to me and I much prefer that. I mean I really want people to clap for me, don't get me wrong, don't get it twisted. But I'm happy to acknowledge that like

42:58 The wisdom is like somewhere else. Like what comes through is like not entirely mine. Now that we're on the subject of mystery and mysticism, uh I there's also a Song on here. Um uh about your relationship to the divine, I think. It's called a love story. Hmm, yeah. Where are you and God?

43:19 God, your homie, yeah. That's my homie. Um that f that song actually feels like Andrea's song. So I wrote that song in Colorado. I had gone out to a fertility clinic. in Colorado that everyone said when I couldn't get pregnant after years of not getting pregnant, everyone's like, You have to go to this clinic. It's the Mecca. It's the place where it people who can't get pregnant, they get pregnant when they go there. Okay, I'll go anywhere.

43:42 I'm in Colorado. Um, which is where Andrea and their wife Meg lived. Um And I was there for an egg retrieval.

43:53 That ended up being unsuccessful. But In waiting for the days prior to the egg retrieval egg retrieval. My friend Edie Carey was going to um Andrea's show at the Paramount Theater.

44:08 In Denver. And so I was like, Well, I'm here. I'll go see Andrea. Tig Nataro's opening. I love Tig's comedy. Let's go see this show. And while I was at the show Um I saw Glenn and Doyle and Abby Wombach.

44:22 Down in the front. And I had done their podcast before and I sent Glenn an email and I I was like, I think we're both here randomly in Denver watching like what are you doing here? We spoke and I told them what was going on. They're close with Andrea. They were a part of this documentary that ended up being about Andrea's life. And they were so sweet about the fertility issues. And then they invited to be me to be a part of The film and that film experience was so transformative for me.

44:50 Um, so the song I wrote the day of my egg retrieval. Which was not successful. But I had just seen Andrea on stage. And I felt so full. Of Andrea.

45:02 And the cadence of their language and the And Andrea talks a lot about you know, God or the universe and and when I say God, I think I really mean

45:15 life force I think I think Yeah. There's something about like the mystery I don't believe in the bearded Man, of course. Like but I But I do believe that there are there is a kind of

45:29 Life force. That is Bigger and has Yeah. Better answers than I do.

45:35 I really have a lot of faith in that. Um So This that song was written after seeing the show and running into this man on a walking path.

45:47 Who told me about losing his wife. And I just was Overwhelmed with Grief. And just like how connect how connected it was that I felt like if the whole reason I went to Colorado was to be a sign for this man.

46:03 Uh his wife who just passed away. was gonna take care of him in the afterlife. Then so be it. You know, the the surrender that that came from and the comfort that comes from the idea that like we might not have all the answers or all the

46:21 perspective at any given moment. I mean I was devastated. I I Went through this procedure and we didn't get anything. And and the worst part being that like no one told me that it might not ever be an egg. It turned out it was just a sack of fluid in my ovary. It wasn't even an actual egg that was growing. And I didn't even know that was a possibility.

46:42 So I had been there for weeks for this one. what I thought was a follicle with an egg, and then there was not even an egg. And I was Devastated. But then I got this song.

46:53 And I got this experience with Andrea and Meg and Tig and Glenn and Abby and like On and on and on and on. Like A life changing experience. being a part of that film. So I'm just like I don't know. I have a lot of faith.

47:06 In the wisdom. That's Not mine. I'm curious like how's it going with the fertility stuff? Ugh, I'm taking a break. I had a miscarriage earlier this year.

47:15 The good news being that I got pregnant. And I had never been pregnant before. And boy did I love it. I loved feeling pregnant. I loved it. I loved it. Yeah.

47:29 And I'm gonna tell you It was What I really feel is relief. Because I

47:39 Have also felt so saturated by this. Creative output. I mean, in addition to what I'm doing with the record and the movie I also have a new musical that we've been in it's launching at the end of this year. It's I'm going on tour. It's just a really really intense time creatively.

47:58 And I I don't know how I would manage if I was also I would probably have canceled my tour. is what I probably would have done.

48:08 And so I feel grateful that I don't have to be in that. Kind of. In the tension between artist and mother. Um

48:19 But yeah, we'll try again. We try it. We had a A little embryo. Yeah. Didn't take, but

48:26 was a huge amount of learning that happened and and I felt really I really celebrated that I could get pregnant at all because that's the first time that's happened. So Hey man, I'm in the messy middle. I don't know what's gonna happen, but we'll try again. But I'm on a break now, and I'm not mad to be off those meds. The hormones are Fucking awful. I know we've talked about this, you know, but but we we had very

48:50 We had a lot of infertility struggles in our Family. Including a miscarriage and um IVF and all the

48:58 many of the things you were going through and We were essentially told it wasn't we were we're never gonna have a kid and um Now I have it. Giant Aryan. Child marching around the house with a mouthful of braces and mouthing off to me.

49:12 So Congratulations. I don't know if that's the right term um some days. Uh but yes, I mean it really Yeah, if you feel like persevering, um Yeah, amazing things can ha can happen. Again, it I mean, it feels like there's a theme there around just like

49:32 There is a kind of mystery. to all of this. There is like a kind of Surrender and a mystery. Like acceptance is different than resignation. You know.

49:44 There's a kind there is a sort of beautiful H True acceptance of what is Maybe not so easy. I mean for me with

49:53 Fertility, and I know I've shared with this you per with this with you personally, but You know, it was humbling. to be someone I I really like me and life get along pretty well. I I it's not that I don't I work my ass off, but like I've never been someone who was

50:11 Who felt like nothing ever works out for me like that's just not My philosophy Always had a lot of Class have four. Kind of just

50:19 Yeah. And It was really humbling. to be really trying. I mean it still is, but I'm like, I'm really Trying.

50:29 And it's not working. Or it's working on some level that I don't Understand yet. You know, but it's really humbling. And I think there's beauty in that too, even though it's not particularly

50:41 Comfortable. And that seems to be the through line of this wh whole conversation and of this body of work that you're in the middle of uh on the cusp of releasing into the world and by the time this post you will have released into the world is that is like um An awareness and an embrace of the poignancy of this whole being alive thing. The point is to just I only want to say appreciate.

51:03 But To just be a wick. To the richness. Amen. It's just so

51:09 Astoundingly complex. And varied and strange and mysterious. It's just like How And there's so much beauty in that.

51:22 In the mystery. If you're open to it and if you're not, you know, just Walking through life. or sleepwalking through life, you know, in denial and distraction. Um but

51:34 And I think that's the fundamental brave choice that you've made, which is you're not doing that, or most of the time. You've been a huge Huge part of why I can say that I'm more awake than I was before. And I really have to thank you just as a teacher, as a friend. And as someone who curates spaces that really cultivate a kind of

51:54 Interest in people seeking a different way to move through the world. You have been So instrumental. And so helpful in making my quality of life what it is. So Thanks, Dan Harris.

52:06 It's my pleasure, Sarah Barellis. And and really it's like it kind of what you're saying that when Which I really appreciate. I was just thinking a little bit about the porousness of the line between service and self interest. I do a lot of work that I hope is helpful to other people, but it th in doing that work it's very beneficial to me and enjoyable and I I assume I'm just this is an assumption, you'll correct me if I'm wrong, that you feel the same way about your art. Joyful narcissism. Yes. Yes. Yeah.

52:41 Yeah, yeah. I used to feel Really conflicted about the fact that I was doing

52:54 this work, meditation, Buddhism, happiness, whatever you want to call it whatever it is I do, uh, and that there was self interest in there, you know, like it pays my bills and um I like people clapping for me and all all of that stuff. And my executive Coach. Jerry Colonna's very wise guy. Yeah. said something to the effect of, No, no, you can think of it all as like a uh an exchange of love. Like you

53:21 are doing work and I think this applies I think this applies to what you you to what you're doing. You're making content out of love and then you get love in return in the form of like the ability to pay your mortgage and um the the dopamine From applause. And then that allows you to do more work and up you go. I think that's right.

53:42 Yeah, that it's also Yeah. Return is energizing. Not all the time, but so often. It's energizing and it makes you want

53:52 Yeah, to the it's it's like a A loving feedback loop. I think that's good. One more song I wanna ask you about before I let you go. Um

54:01 And this this was One of the songs that you played w you were Um just so viewers and listeners know Sarah's Friends with my wife.

54:10 uh Bianca Harris and um Sarah and Bianca and a few other um women w organized a Little day long Retreat at our house. In the winter.

54:21 And um Sharon Salzburg, the great meditation teacher, was part of it. And I was uh the gopher. Um, I think fetching you guys food and winable fire. Yes, I made a fire, and then I was told to get the fuck out. Um but I w there was one period toward the end where I was allowed to stay for brief period of time and you played us a few songs on uh off this new record and one of them was Heartland Which I think maybe my favorite song on the record is

54:46 And it's about America It's about America. And Um yeah, I was just curious to hear you hold forth on on the work. I think one of the things that I have not really known how

55:00 Oh I guess where to Put Is my grief?

55:05 And I think I it's something that so many people I know and love are also grappling with. And I don't know if We've been calling it what I think it actually is is just like grief. It's like it's not What I thought.

55:20 It was. And I really believe that it's important to N Um sort of surrender the idea of patriotism and

55:31 That you can love this country. And also know that it is deeply flawed. But Um so the song is sort of written from the perspective of the Statue of Liberty. And

55:44 The constitution I sort of personified those talisman. To I don't know, just talk about the ideals that this place is founded upon. Yes, deeply flawed, obviously not inclusive from the get and but that the The things that we are reaching toward I think are still

56:04 Beautiful. Ideas. And It makes me Sad that

56:11 love of country feels co opted by people who I find to seemingly be so cruel, exclusive, and so Narrow minded. About what makes America whatever.

56:25 Um So yeah, I've just felt so sad. I felt so sad about what we've seen transpire. What I thought would never be possible. Being possible.

56:36 Um And there there is a lot of grief in that. So I wrote a song about it, which is literally my job, Dan. Ha ha ha.

56:46 It's a great time. It's so beautiful and Um You know, as I was listening to you speak, you're talking about like people weaponizing patriotism, you know, when in fact they're hiding behind it as a excuse for cruelty or

56:59 corruption and you know, that expression, patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel and like Yeah, well who who does that that suit fit better on than Donald Trump, you know, um, the guy is using his position as president to enrich himself to like Obscene extent. All with a Make America Great hat on.

57:22 Yeah. I mean Joe and I talk about My husband and I talk about this all. The time. I've just like

57:29 It just feels Unreal. And and the fog. That seemed it's just uh how long are these fucking presidencies Jesus. Just like we're not even halfway through, are you? Kidding me

57:49 It's it's it's a long haul. And Іно There's probably you know the the reckoning that we are walking through

58:00 Is I don't know, do we get there without someone this horrible? I don't know. I I Again, I want to sort of believe in in the mystery, but it is It is a brutal thing to watch. And I really and I see and appreciate so much of You know, people coming together to

58:18 To work against Uh Current. And work against the corruption and try to build safety and community.

58:26 In places that need it and It's not all bad. There's still so many good people. I think there is still So many more. People working.

58:34 For good and not. Just a lot of greed and corruption. And Power hungry. People.

58:43 A million percent. And I think it's really important. To hold two things. in your mind at the same time as you've just Pointed out, like yes, there are some very significant problems at sixteen hundred Pennsylvania right now.

58:56 Uh throughout um the body politic. And There are definitely more good and amazing people and good and amazing things happening. But the algorithms That control our lives.

59:10 Um Are You know, people are profiting off of making us angry and anxious. And um I think it's really helpful to to

59:21 keep in mind that we can be aware of the problem without lapsing into like you know, posting in all caps and um, you know and or resignation. I mean the distortion, the the amount of distortion. That happens online.

59:38 It's just astounding. So Yeah. I am definitely someone who really keeps Or at least tries to keep my social media

59:47 experience check and just like G have your experience of the world be in the world. Like Th there's that beautiful quote. Then I don't know who said it, but it's not I said it.

1:00:00 No, it's not mine. Just hitting. It's that we don't see the world As it is, we see the world as we are. And I think that The phone. And these algorithms, like you're saying, they are just designed.

1:00:14 Yeah. to There They're designed to destroy our idea of what the world actually is. Reinforce our priors.

1:00:23 And warp. uh you know, and and bolster our prejudices and, you know, um uh vilify the people who disagree with us. A hundred percent. Um I think it was Anais Nin who said the whole thing. Anais Nin, that's right. Now I'm just showing off.

1:00:41 I really I love your intellect. Well done. How do you know I didn't just Google that real quick? I could've'cause they watched your hands. Oh yeah, that's right. Yeah, it's like a intellectual three card Monty. Um anything um

1:00:58 Anything Sarah Borrellis that I should have That we should have talked about that we haven't gotten to? Oh, I think the only thing the only other thing I wanna say is that the beautiful documentary that was made about This record that I feel is a s really a sister piece to this record is gonna be in theaters on September second. So I really highly encourage people to go check it out with their friends. Um

1:01:24 I promise it's it's at least a little bit funny. You might cry. You'll probably cry a little bit, but it's at least a little bit funny. And you'll get to really understand the music differently. So if you're if you're interested in the in the sort of behind the scenes look, it's it's a pretty cool one, I think. I love documentaries about music and watching the creative process and uh I just started watching this uh last night and it really like it's so cool to watch you and your team and your f co creators make this beautiful thing together. So I recommend it. And also um you are going out on tour. So if people want to f find out when you're coming to their town, how do they do that?

1:02:02 You can go to Sarah B Music dot com. Um And Everything you need to know is on there. Also all about this film who I also want to shout out Josh Alexander, who's a friend and also a

1:02:15 meditator and a and a fan of yours and uh he's the director of the film. So he brought together the beautiful team and and made this beautiful movie. So really grateful to him. But yeah, everything you need to know is on SarahBmusic.com. So you don't even have to s know how to spell my last name. You're welcome. Uh

1:02:38 The record's called Good Grief. It's out today. documentary also called Good Grief. out soon. Um and the uh tour information Cereb music dot com. There I mean.

1:02:50 B music dot com. Thank you. I'm super proud of you and also really grateful to you for sparing the time to do this. So thank you. So happy to do it. I'm happy to see you and I hope to see you soon. Thank you so much to everybody who works so hard to make this show. Ten Percent Happier is produced by Tara Anderson and Eleanor Vasili. Our recording and engineering is handled by the great folks over at Pod People. Lauren Smith is our managing producer. Marissa Schneiderman is our senior producer, DJ Kashmir is our executive producer. And Nick Thorburn of the great indie rock band Islands wrote our theme. Also, one last thing before you go, remember

1:03:25 to sign up for my new app, which is called Ten Percent with Dan Harris. You can sign up over at danharris.com. On the app, you'll find a growing library of meditations from world class teachers, add free access to the full Expertise. of our podcast guests, meaning you'll get this podcast with no ads.

1:03:43 exclusive live stream events, which we do weekly, sometimes twice a week. robust discussion threads to connect you with our team, with our teachers, and with one another. There's a free fourteen day trial if you want to try. Before you buy.

1:03:56 Peace.

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