OLIPOP’s gutsy play to dethrone Coke and Pepsi, with Ben Goodwin

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1:20 Join us at masters of scale dot com slash apply twenty six. That's mastersofscom slash apply. twenty six. Hey everyone, Bob Safian here. Today we're revisiting a terrific conversation I had with the founder of Olipop, the prebiotic soda that's grown to a nearly$2 billion valuation and inspired competition from new startups to major global brands. We call this episode Olliepop's Gutsy Play to dethrone Coke and Pepsi, and you're gonna lap it up. So settle in. Here's Ben Goodwin of Ollipop.

2:00 We've been growing triple digits every single year. 2020, we grew 960% in one year. It's like when th you know, the videos somebody's like riding a rocket and their cheeks are, you know, flapping and the it that is what it is. That is what it has felt like. Like, oh my God. Like our leaders have to grow at At pace that is inhuman. Between the like You can't just do all your work, which is already inhuman, you have to grow.

2:31 As a person and as a leader. I will either be the one of the bigger unlocks for this company or I'll I will be the biggest bottleneck. That's Ben Goodwin, co-founder and CEO of Olipop, the super successful probiotic soda brand. With a mission to make soda that's actually healthy for you and flavors that have captured the taste buds of Gen Z and millennials, Olipop is challenging the$60 billion soda industry. PepsiCo recently shelled out$2 billion to buy Olipop rival Poppy, while Coke launched its own competitor, SimpliPop. I wanted to talk to Ben to hear how he and his company are navigating the turbulence of rapid growth and rising competition.

3:19 What leadership lessons he's had to embrace along the way. And whether healthy soda is actually healthy or just a TikTok fueled fad. Ben doesn't disappoint, so let's get into it. I'm Bob Safian and this is Rapid Response. I'm Bob Safe, and I'm here with Ben Goodwin, co-founder, CEO, and formulator of Olipop. Ben, thanks for being here.

3:49 Thanks for having me, Bob. So I I have to start by asking you. Uh your title includes Formulator. What What what does that what does that mean? What's a what's a formulator? Yeah, you know, it's kinda funny because uh

4:02 I'm I'm technically kind of a bit of a formulator first CEO second in terms of the arc of my history as a you know formulator first. Yeah, so I mean, that's the top of your resume. That's the first thing on the LinkedIn page is formulator. It's the it's the uh craft I have the deepest relationship with in terms of the the amount of time. Like obviously Ollipop has grown a lot. We've had triple digit growth. Every year out the gate. So I've had to learn how to be a decent CEO under really intense conditions.

4:36 But I've been a formulator since I was, you know, effectively twenty. the uh product science, you know flavor chemistry, all the kind of stuff. I essentially I do all of the formulation for all of the Olipop flavors. You know, I'm I'm fortunate enough now to have Uh an in house lab.

4:54 that supports my efforts and supports various kind of R D stuff for Olipop, but I still lead all of the flavor development. I mean is is being so hands on, is it Is it important for the business or just something that like you love personally? I mean I know you I heard you started in your laundry room. Is that still your preferred laboratory? My laundry room was my upgrade. I started uh I started just like in the kitchen. Then in my last place, I actually managed to get it in the laundry room. And in terms of your your your question, like it It is Fun for me.

5:30 It's an art form for me and It's actually my most direct, unfiltered kind of personal expression to our customers. Um, and then I just I guess you know, I'm also fortunate enough to be

5:46 Adequately skillful that You know, it's that product quality has contributed to our success. And and look, at this point, it's like a really it's not convenient. At all. Like it's really like a huge pain in the ass to try to run the business and formulate, but Um Yeah, but you're not giving up the formulating.

6:05 Hello? Maybe it'll happen one day, maybe it won't. So so for folks who are less familiar, Alipop's known as a functional soda. Like What does that mean? What is a a prebiotic soda versus a probiotic soda? Give us the landscape.

6:20 Soda itself has a really, really interesting, very deep history. Right. It goes back Hundred, couple hundred years, there's like Middle East roots, there's European roots. So in the US, like obviously full sugar soda and a in a myriad of forms existed for many, many decades. Especially kinda starting in the late eighteen hundreds. Actually it wasn't until nineteen forty three that the federal government stepped in and told Coke and Pepsi and Dr. Pepper that they could no longer call soda healthy. That's how long it was they were co saying that it was healthy, even though by that time it was like loaded with caffeine and sugar. Um

6:55 You know, and then in the sixties and seventies, and then really peaking in the eighties, you had diet soda come in. Right. And that was this awareness that hey, all the sugar's not great for you. Let's go with these kind of Artificial sweeteners. And that's it's been a kind of that two horse race for a really long time. Functional soda. Which I am fortunate enough to effectively had been the one that created the category and I've been working on it since about two thousand and and ten.

7:21 Is basically this idea that Soda can actually be health contributing. I was looking at the evolution of the science around digestive and microbiome health. and decided that this kind of nutritional intervention was I thought was actually a superior strategy. The base of our kind of nutritional pillars are fiber. prebiotics.

7:42 And nutritional diversity. So sometimes when I hear people say the prebiotic soda category, I'm like, well, that's true, but that's just part of the story because a lot of the other competitors that have come into the space are kind of just looking to capitalize for the most part on a trend. Uh, but it only is kinda t actually technically a part of a part of what we offer. The health benefits, n not everyone's on board about them. You know, there been Class action lawsuits not about your claims, but about claims from others. I is Alipop actually healthy for me, or is it just Better for me than traditional soda.

8:16 You know, I'm actually s so grateful that you asked that question. I don't want to s wade into trash talking territory here, but I do think a lot of the other entrance They've they got a really small amount of total fiber. Or they're putting some of that fiber in it's not even stable in their products. You kind of really want like a blend of different high quality prebiotics. It's how you get to the best outcome. That's at least our new my Formulation philosophy.

8:40 Um Ollipop is actually Healthy. We have done multiple in vitro clinical trials now at Purdue. We have a partnership with their stability lab.

8:50 We've a partnership with their complex carbohydrates laboratory, and we've looked at microbiome and digestive health outputs. We sacreable bifidogenesis. We saw the fermentation of multiple forms of short chain fatty acids. And then we just finished our first uh pilot human clinical trial. And we were looking at blood sugar stability. And blood sugar response and basically of the folks that we studied. Um, it kept their blood sugar stable for a full three hours. So

9:17 uh like if you start stabilizing people's blood sugar response, you start benefiting um their digestive health, uh microbiome outputs. I'm you know. Yeah. I don't know exactly what level of data peop most people need. to uh classify something as healthy, but I'd say that certainly meets my criteria. My goal is to say health and wellness

9:40 Should be Actually contributing. to your health and wellness and you should have some empirical data to validate that. If you're gonna ask consumers to spend a premium You wanna know that you're actually giving them real

9:52 Outcomes for what For what they're spending. You mentioned how Fast. your business has been growing and and it's one of the fastest growing US beverage brands ever. He recently raised funds at I don't know, around a two billion dollar valuation. But you do have this intense competition.

10:08 Right. Poppy, which is known for these Super Bowl ads that was recently acquired by PepsiCo for just under two billion dollars. Coca-Cola's launch. Simply Pop, like How much does that change the game when the sort of The big players. Step in. I really want to see this category.

10:28 live up to its full potential. You know, you've got Soda, which is a sixty billion dollar Ninety eight percent household penetration market in the United States, right? If we can do good. in that category and use that as a kind of a Trojan horse to drive outcomes for people. It's Really powerful. In terms of like big players entering the space, to be honest with you, I think it's fantastic. Some of the largest brands and the largest players in the soda and beverage space in the world getting into your category have it goes a long way to massively validate

10:59 what you're doing. And so like hats off to Poppy. I know that getting out uh selling the business was it really important to them. Coke uh Coke as well getting involved. It's like to be honest with you, it's a bit of an honor. One of your investors is Injo Nui, though. Former Pepsk. I I imagine that PepsiCo may have approached you at the same time as they did Poppy. I don't know, do do you consider tying up with a bigger place? Look, I mean I

11:25 Yeah. You know, I can't I can't really speak to that with a lot of detail. I don't want to be overly coy in terms of Ollipod does need to create a liquidity event, right? The reality is we've taken on investor capital, you just Point into that. That was our final round into the business. We're like very, very fully profitable and really liquid pun intended. But um

11:47 Uh we have raised investor capital, which means you need to generate a liquidity then. There's multiple ways that you can go through MA. Um, there's obviously IPO going public, and so that is where right now we're just preserving optionality. I mentioned Poppy's Super Bowl ad earlier. They spent I don't know, sixteen million dollars on a on a one minute spot. Yeah. You didn't make that investment. And instead

12:10 you tease them for their spending uh uh on social media, which they then called online bullying. Like i is that is that kind of back and forth With them is that Is that strategic? Is that what customers want from brands? You're laughing. I have no idea. The online bullying thing is really good. Oh, that's really good. Um

12:31 First of all, there's a difference between the stuff that I personally authorise and sometimes the stuff that the social media team decides that they wanna get up to, right? And that was a moment where to be honest there's a little bit of a gap, right? I was actually at a friend's wedding in Puerto Rico, I was not the one hitting send on the whatever whatever platform it is that we were commenting on. But at the same time, I kind of understand where the I understand where the consumers were coming from, which is like we do live in a time with like an enormous amount of income inequality. Whatever it was about how Poppy showed up, that hit a nerve for a lot of people. They made their own voices heard. I don't need to add to that conversation. Um

13:10 You know, our team did say a couple of things, but then they stopped and that's good,'cause they probably would have been fired if they hadn't. Uh, and uh and we just kinda went on with their lives. But yeah, I think that We we don't spend the same amount of money on on marketing that that uh that Poppy does. I'm okay with that because a lot of what has driven our business has been organic demand and organic word of mouth. That is like real sustainable growth that we're experiencing. Um and I'm really proud of that. And and as long as you can continue to grow the business like that, you should I think that we will probably have increases suspended marketing. Yeah, as we go, but

13:48 Yeah, it's okay for us as brands to have different strategies in terms of how we approach growth. I asked about the social media in part because you guys have been very successful, popular on TikTok. Your videos are praised for not being highly produced, for feeling authentic, which yeah is either easier said than done for a for a lot of brands. Seventy percent of our content creators of social media are first they're not professional influencers. They're first time creators. They're not professionals uh at all. And we really love that because they're real customers. They're real fans of the product. That's a big part of how you get to that authenticity. The other thing that I love about it is we have this really high level of brand affinity.

14:30 From our customers, even as celebrities that we've ended up partnering with. Um They're big. I was gonna ask you about that, because you've got you've got a slew of celebrities as investors and right, the Jonas brothers and Gwenneth Paltrow, Mindy Kaling. Like does Does that help your brand? The celebrity that we have the high um level of relationship with is actually Camilla Cabello.

14:51 We got connected to her because she was out photographed drinking a bunch of strawberry vanilla a bunch of times and eventually we're like, Hey, do you are you a fan? And it just kinda worked out with uh with an investment and then a and then an actual uh talent deal between us. We shot an ad with her. Um it was kind of an anti celebrity celebrity ad. And she brought her that's her real family in the ad. Like she brought her real family in to to shoot that. Um, and that so the authenticity of the relationship we've been able to have for her, the way that she really gets what we're doing is that's the thing that's made it really thrive. And I mean

15:26 I think you can build I think celebrities can be very useful. But I think they're the most useful when the relationship is authentic. And I just think like when if a if a consumer sees that and feels like, oh, that's transactional. I don't think it carries the same weight. Mm. I mean.

15:42 How how much of your success Do you feel like Is from the marketing Versus from the product. You know, like some some cer some people are like, Oh, the product had to speak for itself.

15:55 And other people are like Hey, I can sell anything. To my chagrin, actually, as a product guy. You can cut corners on your product and if you're really effective at marketing You know, again, to my chagrin, I think this is a bummer. But you there are people who've built Perfectly successful companies that way.

16:13 I don't love it. Um it goes against kind of everything I stand for as an entrepreneur and as and again as like a formulator, but it's it is that is still technically an option. I think you're In much better. Territory though. If you

16:29 Up. load, you know, you spent your upfront energy really getting your product. And agree. Spot. I think we live in a world where

16:37 Uh let's just be like honest. Like a lot of life is a scam. Everything's kinda trying to rip you off. All the time, especially in the United States. And I think, you know, I think one of the things that really builds real brand affinity is when a c a consumer a customer has an interaction with the brand then goes like, Oh, whoa.

16:59 This actually delivered on what it Set, right? This actually really gave me that satisfaction. I personally just like that's so satisfying to me. that I just like couldn't bring myself to build a company that was all marketing driven and you know, all no subst all style, no substance. It's one thing to market a product well, but as Ben points out, delivering on that promise is where brands earn lasting trust. So how did Olipop survive what Ben calls quote the death hurdle of growth? And how are he and his leadership team dealing with rising pressure and expectations? We'll talk about that and more after the break. Stay with us.

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18:48 10 seconds to find, just search rapid response wherever you listen to podcasts and hit follow to make sure you never miss an episode. I hope to see you there. Before the break, Alipop's Ben Goodwin explained why healthy soda is soaring in the marketplace. Now we talk about the leadership challenges and lessons in managing breakneck growth, including his own personal mental and emotional journey. Let's dive back in. You alluded earlier to the things you've had to learn moving from being a formulator to being, you know, a CEO. And obviously you've had a ton of growth. Growth has its own challenges. Are are there lessons in that transition? I mean, I was looking at your revenue jump from like

19:35 Two hundred million to five hundred million in a in a year? I mean it crazy. Crazy kind of growth. Man, it has been It's like uh it's like when you know the videos it's somebody's like riding a rocket and they're they're

19:49 Cheeks are you know flapping and the it that is what it is. That is what it has felt like. You just try to keep your Physical and emotional sanity as like a as a leader in all of that. The first death Hurdle is that is ten million. Getting from zero to ten million, like your chances of death from zero to a million are just astronomically high.

20:09 Your chances of death of from one to ten are still pretty high. You get to that ten and you're like kind of on some more stable ground, but really you've got to then get up to a hundred. If you wanna then be like breathing well. And then from there it's okay, it's two hundred Five hundred. And then you had a billion, you were just in

20:28 Very, very rarefied territory. But like one of the things that I really saw, I I so we have something in the company called Ollipop Leadership University. And it was for me, it was just kinda based on the premise it was exactly what we're talking about now. Holy We've been growing triple digits every single year. Twenty twenty we grew nine hundred and sixty percent in one year. Which a l

20:49 Irritated me a little bit because I'm like, we're forty percent away from quadruple digit growth, right? We're just so close. Uh but I'll I'll take it. Um and uh You know, and and like I I I really realized, like, Oh my God, like our leaders have to grow. Uh At pace that is inhuman between the like

21:10 You can't just do all your work, which is already inhuman. You have to grow. As a person and as a leader, it's like it takes every ounce of everything you've got and a lot of people still aren't gonna make it. Well, guess where that was more true than anywhere else? Me. Because I recognize like I will either be the

21:32 one of the bigger unlocks for this company or I'll I will be the biggest bottleneck. And you learn as you go through that process that leadership is like a really conscious effort. The best leaders are very, very conscious about how they're showing up. They're very conscious about what they're saying, when what they're not saying, when they're saying it, what tone they're using. The other thing that you're learning about being a leader at a larger company is you're a systems engineer. Because you still gotta be able to s sniff out bullshit.

22:00 And like look, see around corners and pivot. But you also have to become a systems engineer because you can't sit down with everybody in the business anymore. So now you have to think about how whole departments work and how they interrelate and how the sub departments work. And do I have the right leaders sitting over the right verticals and all that kind of stuff? And you have to hire people who are better than you in every single area of the business. A lot of founders who become these senior leaders basically, what happens to them is they can't let go of control.

22:29 And now you've got to be able to say, step away from that. A lot of leaders start to struggle with, Well, what's my relevance? What am I good at anymore? And you got to realize, like your job is now to become s A that systems engineered, but it's also um you need to become an excellent leader of people. Like you need to understand people. You need to ha be

22:49 Um more emotionally mature than you are today. And that and so that means like Maybe you need to go to therapy. Maybe you need to start dealing with some of your sh

23:00 And that's a hard thing for a lot of people to Uh absorb. You spent years sort of toiling away on an idea that, you know other people kept saying was a crappy idea, you know, and you've kind of gone from being a renegade who is going against the grain to kind of

23:17 Yeah, which was motivating, right? To now like writhing this wave of accolades and momentum. Like how how much of an adjustment Is that for you? Man, that's a great question, Bob. No one's ever asked me before. That's also that's a really interesting question. I actually I do have this like pretty defiant personality in a lot of ways, right? Which a lot of entrepreneurs do. And uh that's one of that that creates the grit, right? That's like that's like a big part of our makeup oftentimes. Both my co-founder and I

23:47 experience this lag. Where all of a sudden we both were like Oh sh Like we have all this power now? And it's really weird.

23:57 We were just so used to being that underdog. And now all of a sudden you've got some like momentum under your belt. Two hundred million four hundred plus blah blah blah, and all of a sudden You're like the final boss in the interview of VPs and up, and people are like nervous to talk to you and you're like an idea for people now, and it's this whole weird thing. And For a while it wasn't the right strategy. I just didn't know how to deal with it. I kinda stuck my head in the sand a little bit. Like I basically like I understood that like okay I gotta s I know I need to start acting differently now. I know I know I need to

24:29 be responsible with my power, but I don't want to deal with this whole being a thing for people. Thing. And uh Then you know and then I had to I eventually came to the point I was like, actually They need me to be a thing.

24:47 Like they kinda need it. And it's like Going back to like being conscious about your style like What is that right line where you're still authentic?

24:59 But You are becoming more skillful, hopefully. And you are recognizing that it's just It is part of your role. And then how do you lean into that? Well, as much as you can

25:14 You know, then it all of a sudden starts to become about like Making sure that You don't lose touch with yourself in that as well. I went through a period of that where okay, like finally flipped over, but then I like lost touch with myself a bit. I didn't kinda know why. You're kind of playing a role instead of being yourself. And it's painful. It's like physically and emotionally painful.

25:34 And and you g it happens kinda gradually and you're overwhelmed, so you don't see it happening. And actually somewhat recently I've started to reclaim That center of gravity with myself and I was like oh Thank you I did I got that was what was missing. You know? So look, I think you just like Notice how I've spent a lot of time in this whole arc talking about

25:55 Interpersonal mechanics, emotional mechanics, maturity. I think that like people really do not talk about the people go and get their MBAs, right? And people talk about all the stuff, like here's the three steps of strategy how you do this and that. Like You're like if you get the right people around you and you're not So foolish as to not listen to them. A lot of those skills are gonna come with

26:19 With By necessity and by learning. If you're good at learning. It's the emotional interpersonal development stuff where there's the most value and it's the most Under represented in terms of what we discuss. And I I think that's a shame.

26:35 Mm now I was part of the reason I asked at the beginning about, you know, why you keep doing the formulating'cause it's like sometimes you just gotta do the stuff that feeds your soul, right? That that Gee keeps your energy up. You're so right. I I you know, self aggrandizingly I am also pretty freaking good at formulating. And your sorry, which is that's like that's embarrassing to say that out loud. But uh but I am pretty good. And um

27:02 And also, you're right. Like it is it is a For me, it's almost like an act of uh of service a little bit for our customers. You need all those skills. You need to know how acid works, how mouthfeel works, how sweetness works, how bitter like you've gotta know how all the stuff works. How you know. What's your pH to stabilize? What are your bricks and hydratable acids? But you'll try to learn those things enough. So that the art form can flow through?

27:28 Which uh Yeah, it that does There is something really special and and grounding to me about that. And you know, you have all those butterflies, you'd have almost like I made a song. Are people gonna like it as much as they like the last song?

27:43 When it works, it's a great feeling. So I I there's this stat that I saw That Alipop received Half a million. job applications last year, people wanting to work at the company. I is that right? That's that's kinda crazy.

27:57 Yeah, so it's about four hundred thousand. Um And yeah, that's a mind blower. How many people work at the company now? We have like two ten. So first of all, massive hats off to the people team.

28:10 And the talent acquisition team. The year prior, I forget that I think we had some like eighty four thousand applications. And it was like, it's officially harder to get into Olipop than Harvard. And then this last year we had almost four hundred thousand and they were like, uh, it's officially harder to get into Ollipop than to become a professional NBA player in the United States. Wild Wild.

28:33 Obviously I'm really Grateful for that. By the way, if you have applied for Holy Pop and didn't get a job, now you know the stat. Please don't take it personally. So What's what's at stake for Ollipop now? I mean you're in fifty two thousand retail locations over

28:49 I don't know. Twelve thousand Starbucks outlets? You've also got your hardcore fans that buy from you directly. Yep. You're in one out of five households. Like this is the dream for a lot of brands. Yeah, I know. I've got a bunch of different feelings about it. Like, you know, there's there's a part of me that

29:07 from the beginning set off with like a very Audacious vision, which is like, hey, let's go let's go be this like third wave of soda. Let's go let's go be as big as diet soda. And like, you know, let's go take it on. And In order to Do that. be huge and you've got to be really, really lucky and really, really successful. So there's a part of me that's tracking all of this is just kind of going, awesome, we're on track.

29:32 You know in a very just kind of like matter of fact way. Um, there's a part of me that's just like mind blown. And it's like you're totally right. This is like absolutely this is absolutely the dream and I'm beyond lucky and I'm so thrilled. And mostly I'm just and I know this like I don't know if this sounds cliche or not or whatever, but like I'm really genuinely seriously, I'm just So grateful for our customers. Like when I we were in a major retailer and major national retailer, we overtook Pepsi. And in size? And I was just like What?

30:02 What? Uh... So I'm really grateful for that. There are moments that I experience Uh, and I always just try to bounce back from them. But there are time there have been plenty of times when you are just so Burn to the ground.

30:18 Well, I remember this event that There was some. really cool pop up and they were featuring Ollipop. And I think that was right around the time that we were launching The minions banana cream flavor. And that was something I did not think was gonna work, but I like challenged myself with it, and it's it was this like weird cult hit, and I was just like It was all coming together once and I remember being so burned out.

30:38 that I couldn't even go to the event. Sometimes you have those experiences and you're a little sad. Because you're like, wow, I work so hard, this is such a cool thing, I get it I'd get a you know, interact with the community. But you know. Then you go. A couple months and you kinda surge back and then you go get to do something like that. Right. So there's definitely these moments where

30:57 You feel like Damn, I'm so busy. And I'm so taxed, I'm not really getting to enjoy this moment. Um, and I'm I'm kinda not really getting to enjoy that feeling of success. And then you have other times.

31:10 when you do, right? It's like a bit of it's a little bit of a it's it's a little bit of a mix. I'm sure there's gonna be so much in reflection that's gonna be like deeply nostalgic. And some of it will just stay in that Lane. And some of them might be like, you know, damn, I wish I was a little more Uh I wish I was a little more able to really saturate in those moments because they're The life I'm living is technically really, really rare.

31:36 And that's a really rare experience to get to have. So, you know, I'm gonna enjoy as many of them as I can and We'll go from there. Well, then this has been great. Thanks so much for doing it. Yeah, you met, Bob. It's been a really great conversation. Thanks for having me on. Ha ha ha.

31:52 Ben's openness about the emotional highs and lows of building a business and his effort to stay present through it, it's a reminder that scale isn't just about numbers. It's about navigating rare experiences with rare clarity. Too often leaders get so focused on growth they lose sight of what they're growing into or what they're growing past. I think it's so crucial that Ben continues to do some formulating to keep himself grounded. I know that for me, doing this podcast, talking to people like Ben, helps me stay connected and present. So what keeps you grounded? What gives you the joy and energy that helps you get through the tough times? That's the fuel for resilience, and these days we need as much of that fuel as we can muster. even if it comes from a bubbly can.

32:37 I'm Bob Safian. Thanks for listening. Rapid response is a wait what original. I'm Bob Safian. Our executive producer is Eve Tro. Our producer is Alex Morris. Associate producer is Mashumaku Tonina. Mixing and Mastering by Aaron Bastonelli.

33:05 Our theme music is by Ryan Holiday. Our head of podcasts is Le Cal Malad. For more, visit rapidresponsehow.com.

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