Becoming a super IC: Lessons from 12 years as a PM individual contributor | Tal Raviv (Product Lead at Riverside)

Transcript from https://podmenti.com/t/ec18386d0be0b2ad

I've had thousands of people
Tag my CEO on Twitter calling on him to fire me. I was actually on vacation and I got bored and I was like, I haven't logged into Twitter, I haven't posted anything to Twitter for a while. What's like what's going on on Twitter? And I see that the uh notifications
number. It's like maxed out. It's like nine nine nine plus or whatever.
And I was like, Wait, what? And I clicked the notifications tab and
I see the first tweet is has at CEO Handle fired at Tallervive and I saw that that has like a ton of retweets and I just keep scrolling down and I start to piece together the story.
Today my guest is Tall Raviv.
This is a very special episode for me because Tall was one of the first and most active community members when I was just starting my newsletter Slack community, and as a PM I've admired from afar for a very long time, he's got some really unique and insightful takes on how to be a great product leader.
And interestingly, he's decided to stay an IC product manager throughout his entire career up to this point, which is over 12 years as an IC PM. I've never met anyone that stayed in IC for this long. He's been a PM at Patreon, at Wix.
at Apps Flyer, and most recently joined Riverside as their first ever product manager. Riverside by the way is the platform that I use to record my podcast, so this was kind of a meta experience for both of us. He's also former founder, and outside of tech, he volunteers as a surf instructor for people with disabilities.
In our conversation, we talk in depth about the IC career path.
A bunch of tactical advice on how to be more productive as a PM, including a killer example of how he uses ChatGPT to scale himself.
Tal also explains why every tech company has just two departments that matter.
The difference between book smart decisions and street smart decisions is
We also spend the most time I've ever spent in Failure Corner, where Tal shares all of the times that he's failed in his career and how those experiences made him stronger, and it was really important for him to share these things because he wants people to understand that successful people fail a lot, and those failures make you better.
If you want to learn more from Tall, he's actually about to launch a course on Maven, that's called Build Your PM Productivity System.
Which based on the conversation that we had, I am confident is gonna be awesome.
If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to follow it and subscribe in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes and helps the podcast tremendously.
With that
I bring you tall review.

Tal, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.
Uh, thank you. It's great to be here. This is uh long time in the making.
It has been a long time in the making.
You're interesting in so many ways. We're gonna talk about a lot of different things. One of the things that makes you most unique and interesting.
As a PM is that you've
stayed an I C product manager for your entire career for twelve years.

I don't think I've ever met a PM that's been in I C for twelve years.
I imagine you've had many opportunities to be promoted. I imagine this has been very intentional.
And I also know a lot of people actually think about this a lot. Should I move it to management? Can I stay in I see and be successful?
So I'm gonna spend some time here to start.
And my first question just why? Why have you decided to stay in I see? Why have you not moved?
Into management.
I don't really have a strategy for my career.
Like my strategy is not to have a strategy.
For the longest time I've gone by
Am I excited to wake up in the morning and what's gonna make me excited to wake up in the morning? Right. Not every single day, not all the time, but
For most of my
you know days that I work.
Uh what's gonna make me, you know, hop out of bed.
And
Just kinda follow that.
And
Over time as I got to you know
Have different managers, um
And different uh product leaders that I worked with.
I've never looked at their schedule.
or their days or how they spend the highest, you know, high percentage of their time.
Um
And said, Wow, that's what I want to be doing.
uh if I compare their days with mine and the the stuff they're you know they're busy with um and focused on
And at the same time over the years
I've also noticed that the colleagues that I
identify with the most, like the ones where I just feel I most relate to them.
Many of them have that same pattern where they've gone to
You know.
Team lead or
director and so on and
Their next role they
request to be an IC, like they insist on being an I C.
And
Yeah, so that's that's from the
Yeah, from the tech world that's wow
What informs that and
the values I had growing up, just watching my dad. He's a researcher, he's a professor.
Uh and he just
has a blast every day. Like he refuses to retire.
He's just so enthusiastic about what he does.
And
He you know
He's never like aspired to be like a
Chairman, provost, like that. Like he just loves what he does and he's stay there and
Um I just see the joy, like the fun.
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So much of that resonates with me. I there's actually a period of my career where I was I was not an I C no, I wasn't I C and I was just like
I don't want to be promoted any higher. Everyone I look at above me is just so stressed.
And I just don't need this. And things are great. Why would I want to change that? And I love that you stayed close to that.
I know a lot of things pull people towards management.
Much compensation.
Their status.
More
impacts, trying to you know, like learning to be a manager.
Is there anything there that's just like
hold you and you've been just like I'm gonna give that up and I don't need that, or is it or life just as good as an IC for you?
I won't lie.
Um, over the years, despite like everything I said, if somebody who is my, you know
Same amount of experience or same cohort.
Gets promoted and becomes
a team lead and makes that decision and and and rises up.
It does
You know, like
twang in my stomach and like gets in my ego.
I have that moment where I'm like
Wait a minute, like what about me and
So I'd be doing that and it makes me question everything. Um
And
Then I say to myself, Okay, so
Yeah.
Go for it.
You know.
Tell you know, tell your manager you change your mind or whatever it is needs to happen. And
Then I'm like w
Mm.
Like
Like, do I actually want I I kind of get back to that same logic of like what I don't
I don't actually want that, like
So if I could push a button and
And switch with them, I I wouldn't. So
But definitely, definitely, you know.
Very human.
At the same time.

Trying to pursue this path.
trying to avoid these sorts of things and say just trying to be successful and as an I see
Looking back, is there anything that you've learned that
Has helped you be successful in
Pursue the thing that makes you happy.
I think the big elephant in the room is compensation.
I think that's like
You know, whenever I have this discussion with friends and colleagues, like that's always like the
Well, there's two things. There's compensation and there's
Um
Mike.
Can it
be interesting. Like don't you get sick of it.
Right.
So
I think
Yeah, the classic book drive.
You know, um
Motivation comes from autonomy, mastery, and purpose. And I think for me the I C role
It's definitely very autonomous. It's one of the
being a product manager is one of the most autonomous roles and
Most amount of agency you can ask for.
I think mastery
I once heard Marty Kagan say
in a in a workshop.
You know,
Product manager role is just one of those roles where you can just keep doing it.
You know, for a really long time because it just gets
Uh just keeps changing and
You can change industries, right, without having background in it.
Um the situation changes every time you do it and
every different context is just so
So different and interesting and
Uh, purpose is one that I
I took for granted in the past and I learned how important it is.
I think if you feel that you're building something that you really want to see happen in the world and you really want to make sure it's done well.
You're like you don't you like don't trust anybody else to do it. Like you wanna be the one to work on it and make sure that this gets done well in the world.
Because it matters to you.
Then
I think you're
Yeah, you're in a really strong place, uh
from that point of view, like that really gets you motivated and you want to be hands on and
It keeps you really focused.
I wanna drill into something you said around compensation.
Uh and just generally what you've done to be
to stay down this path'cause I know the conversation, that's a real thing.
Is there anything you've seen in or done that has helped you be more comfortable with that?
In terms of
getting the comp you think you deserve being an I C this long, being like basically a super I C.
I think first of all you have to believe
You're worth like
You have to genuinely believe and understand
Uh
An individual contributor in product management.
Yeah, it was
Is worth
can have a really big scope, really big ownership, really big impact.
And
uh matters line I think
The industry is
coming around to that, right? Um
We'll talk a little bit m more about this, but the
you know, the great flattening of the last few years and
You know, I've seen like
talking to friends who are founders and the founders here at Riverside.
are really looking for people really experienced who are really hands on. Like that's
Like first of all, we just need people who get stuff done.
And
Just recognizing that
In yourself and believing that and recognizing that in the industry and remembering there's a really good analogy here in engineering, right? Where
uh it really makes sense to all of us that like you shouldn't have to rise into management in order to increase your compensation. You're equally
Or just as valuable, right?
Um not as a manager, as like a domain expert.
And
That's step one, like really understand that you are
you know, really, really, really valuable as an I C.
I think
Tactically speaking.
One thing that I've done a few times, different interview rounds.
Is
When it comes to compensation
Uh you've probably heard the line.
Well
You know, that's a really high number.
But yeah, we can't reach it, but don't worry.
We're growing a lot. The product order is gonna grow a lot. There's gonna be a lot of opportunities to rise into management. So you know there's gonna be a lot of opportunities to increase compensation over time.
And that's like a classic line you might hear from a
in a recruiter or hiring manager.
And in those moments
It's kinda like puts you in a weird position where it's like, Well, you know, you don't think you're gonna rise up. So well.
And
What I see in those moments is
You know, I'm glad you mentioned that. I actually have no intention of going into management
uh rising up.
You know, in those ranks.
And I know that
Yeah.
The industry traditionally
Undervalues
Yeah, I see role.
So it's really important for me to, you know.
have that number now.
And that works.
Wow.
Okay.
Very straightforward.
So maybe along those lines just a final question there on this track is just
For people that are trying to create a space for an IC.
Path at a company.
Or as a company trying to do this
Anything
You suggest
They do.
To make this a thing.
for people that actually want to stay I Cs to set this up as a real career path.
Have the titles. I think having you know
Good.
You know, titles that are clear.
That you can move up into
First of all, just like creates it as an idea that there is progress.
Creating clearer levels.
And rubric just like you would for
You know, within any level or within any title.
I think saying it out loud, recognizing it.
I th I think it's just um
Like at the end of the day, you know.
We all want.
Respect we all want.

To feel that that's recognized.
So
I think putting it in words.
Goes a really long way.
So in terms of titles, what are the titles you find? Is it principal product manager? Is there other
titles you found helpful and how many levels of I C do you mind you need?
The ones I've seen?
On like
LinkedIn.
you know, product manager, senior product manager
principal product manager. I've seen a distinguished product manager at last. Oh yeah. I think Amazon I think has that too. Amazon too.
Um
Yeah.
Um
I think those are like the exception, not the rule.
Mm.
Yeah. Uh but uh yeah, I think putting in words really helps.
Okay, so principal and distinguished. Amazing. Distinguished is the highest level you've seen.
I mean I see PM.
And I just create super IC, I guess that's it. Super IC, and we're gonna talk about that.
And then in terms of rubric and career ladder, basically it's just the same way you
Have a
career ladder for managers just have it further go further for I C PMs.
Yeah, I think product is usually like the last department to really uh
Just'cause it's smaller, I think. Um
Yeah. Okay. Amazing. Really helpful.
We've talked about this idea of super I Cs and
As you mentioned, there's kind of this bit and rise of
And shift of flattening of orgs, as you said.
of people hiring more senior product managers is there's a sense of that and they're
Companies are expecting more of
PMs just doing the work, not managing other PMs.
And I feel like you're such an interesting prototypical example of the P the PMs
People want to hire.
And with AI.
It's unlocking a whole new
lever an opportunity for a lot of PMs where they in theory can actually achieve this thing that companies are looking for them to achieve.
Which is just get more done.
So any just thoughts along that track of just like
More is expected of I CPMs. There's more
Need for I CPMs and AI making it easier.
What have you seen there? Where do you think things might be going?
We've seen the last couple of years, you know, I think uh was uh yeah on here Nikhil Singal talking about
When Facebook had those uh really big layoffs.
that they were biased towards keeping
individual contributor product managers.
Um, Zuckerberg, you know, talked about
Oh the fighting
And I've seen
you know, here at Riverside during that same time.
Um
founders talking about how they were just really looking for
You know.
Can we just find some really, really senior, experienced people who want to stay hands on?
Like that would be the dream, right?
I you know, I also have heard from friends in you know, in the market that
um the hiring market that there's just a lot more experienced people.
uh competing for the same I C roles as a result of all that.
So
I do think that the result of that is
You know, a lot of
think the result of that is um
Like being at ten X PM.
For example, is becoming more and more table stakes, especially like you mentioned with
AI.
That's just the tailwind for all that.
And we don't have to go too far down this track, but have you actually experienced this yourself? Have you found really interesting ways to leverage AI and become more effective?
Just this week I have an example my team
I want in that
trying to introduce much more rigorous scrum as it hires a lot more developers. Part of that is a lot more paperwork.
uh as a product manager. In some companies it's a whole like role that they hire.
Uh just to do that.
And
What we did is
Uh basically
took chat GPT, told it the format.
You know, of the stories and epics and so on.
And
uh tried something where I just dictated and spoke as if I was doing a kickoff.
And I just talk naturally.
And you know, out at
Just put out all this uh

Stories and so on.
And you know, just have to edit it a little bit, but
Um
So that was that was like a
You know.
Uh moment for me, like, okay, that would have taken
either dividing the team into smaller pieces or multiple product managers to be able to keep up
And
You know, the next step is like we just take the actual kickoff, record that, transcribe that.
And like feed that in the we're
Playing around with that as well.
You can imagine what
might have taken, you know, ten years ago, five years ago.
A director
organization, like a director level organization and everybody reporting to that director.
To achieve something could probably be achieved with an IC now.
And I think the you know, this ties in because like the product career path is gonna be
Even less about people management.
And just more and more about like leadership.
Right. And
Like the the core uh core product manager skills.
Uh, this is an really interesting example of how you're using it. I wanna definitely spend more time here.
It help me understand exactly what you did. So you had a
uh a bunch of projects that you're kicking off with a bunch of different teams with a PM
Leading each one or Scrum Master leading each other. We tried this on on one team, but it was like a really big project. Okay. Like a ton of yes, ton of stories, yeah.
Can you uh explain what the project is briefly or sure.
Okay. Um it's a
I'll say it's like a
pretty fundamental change to the
user experience uh so touches on like everything.
Oh shit.
Of Riverside. Okay. Oh man, here we go.
I'm excited. Okay, so you have this big
uh project you're kicking off to rethink the experience of Riverside.
And
normally you're saying you would have had to write all these one pagers and specs.
After
components of this project, like the different features and product. Is that right?
So the like high level why we're doing this, you know, usability studies, the the design, the vision, all that stuff.
We did without AI, it was you know.
Me, director of design.
And our founder.
But then it came time for, you know, the repper meets the road.
Uh we did a kickoff on engineers, you know, everybody's bought in, everybody's excited.
And now we need to like really make sure that things are really, really well defined.
And very, very clear and easy for
you know, testing afterwards and just like
Make all that stuff, the high level stuff really.
Really specific.
Uh and so s that means
User stories in Jira in this case, right, for this team, that's how they prefer to work.
And the specific format.
Like
But
You know, they they've asked for and
So it's like a story and there's uh it's called a Gherkin. I'm learning this too. This is new to me.
you know, given this, when that, then that.
It's it's really tedious. Uh when it's small, it's actually really fun to write because it makes you think.
But when you have
You know.
So many things I need to change.
Uh it's overwhelming.
And
Would either delay the team, that would be the bottleneck, or we'd just have to split it up.
And
What we did is we took that template.
My team lead said, Hey, this is the template I would love.
I gave it to Chat GPT, so
You know.
You're an expert, PM, product owner, scrum master, whatever.
This is the template. Do you understand? It's like yeah, let's go.
And then I said well actually before we get going, um
I wanna tell
you know, holding down like the dictation button, um he's a whisper.
uh West for I to dictate and
I was like
Yeah, let me just tell you a little more background. I just like started talking to it like I would for a developer, you know, joining the team.
And I just started to talk about like why we're doing it and so on. I was like
So do you understand that?
It's like yeah, cool, let's go.
And then I said, Okay, well the first thing is we're gonna change this area and it's gonna work like this, and it's really important that this and this happens. And I just talked supernaturally to it. Like just
Just like I would to a person.
And
Uh when I was done I hit enter.
And it
Created that.
Yeah, that user story in that format.
Uh all those cases that would have taken me so long to write.
And
I would say the thing that
We still really needed a person for.
Was
deciding how to break up.
this really, really big change into those stories, like what is the logical way to
Split it up.
Uh engineering wise, which my uh team lead did.
But
Once you have that.
Like each one individually worked really, really well. So
I'm now experimenting with taking the transcript. I tried this actually, uh experimenting with taking the transcript of the actual kickoff that we did.
And that we we recorded.
uh on Riverside and had it transcribed and I copied it and put it into chat GPT. It didn't work as well.
Um
So I'm experiment tweaking it to see like
How far how far can we push this?
This was awesome. I love that you're sharing this.
Uh so you had basically
sh describe the project and all the different components all the different features and user stories and words.
Using Whisper just
And to use Whisper is it an app?
Or is it within chat GPT? Where do you actually access this?
It's built into Chat GPT's desktop app and mobile apps, like if you dictate if you dictate that way.
Um I also have like a desktop app on my own that I use
'cause it's just such a great
Um
You know, transcription model.
Awesome. It's it's open source free, uh provided by OpenAI.
Right. It's their it's opening eyes uh trend.
Spee to text.
system and then they're adding voice mode soon, like it's coming out to people. So this is gonna be built into chat GPT soon. Amazing. Okay, so you talk about here's all the things we're gonna be changing in the product.
You give it a template.
Where do you give the template is it you
Put the transcript.
into chat GPT with a prompt of here's the template.
Or are you just even still describing that in
The recording.
No, uh the template is something that um my team leads like this is how I'd love to have these written.
He just says it as part of the train. So the first thing I did, I opened a new thread in ChatGPT and I said
You know, you're an expert.
you know, product manager, product owner.
Uh this is the template we want to use for user stories. Do you understand? Hit enter.
So like
It's like cool, I get it.
And then I start to talk about
The
The changes we want to make.
Okay. This is amazing. Um
I could go down this track all day, but let's shift a little bit at
Is there anything else you found to be really helpful in
having leverage as an I C Pm kind of along these lines, whether it's A or not just
Being that super I see, essentially.
Getting more done as an I C.
So the way I think about this is
How you manage your own time.
How you design your days.
your energy
Your focus.
And then your team.
And how you build that culture and those habits.
To just give you a lot of leverage as an I C. So that you know, still as one person you can
you know, own a lot of uh scope, you can influence a lot, you can
um manage a lot. So
Personally, for my time, I really believe and I think you've written about this as well.
in actively designing your days. And for me
I really strictly spl split my days between deep work and what I call ping pong.
Or you know, ping pong you can imagine it's like when you're
Uh you open Slack and it's just
constant, you know, hitting the belt back and forth. It makes your brain feel like scrambled eggs. You're not gonna be doing any
deep thinking or reading or strategy.
So for me I'm a morning person
And I
I block off my morning for meetings, you know, a lot of people give that tip.
I go even further and I don't open Slack before noon.
I've been doing this for eight years.
Oh, I don't open Slack at all to the p it gets really extreme to the point where like
If I
need to send a message. Like it's usually fails. I usually open Slack.
Um
before noon because I needed to send a message.
And then I realized like all these messages don't need to be sent before noon.
Right.
Just'cause I thought it
At eleven AM.
Doesn't mean I need to send it at eleven AM. There's no urgency.
At that level.
So I actually keep a section of my to do list which is
When I open Slack.
Here are the messages I'm gonna send. And I write them as if I'm about to hit enter and slack, but they're in my to do list.
And
Sometimes if I like really, really, really rare moments I'll
need to check something, I'll ask the person next to me, like, hey, can you go into this channel and just show me that thing? Because like I you know, all their notifications don't like
you know, trigger my brain into scrambled eggs again. So that's an awesome tip.
Yeah. And I know people will hear this and be like, There's no way I can do this.
Is your insight is you can.
Yes, uh
Usually when I share this, people are like, Well, what if something urgent happens and people are looking for you?
This has happened
Like
twice a year.
I you realize how not urgently needed uh the PM role ever is, like
And
First of all, over time
People really respect it.
They like they learn that
This is how you work. And they they come to really respect us.
Um
And
Second.
The key people that I work with have my phone number.
And I tell them you know.
Feel free to call me.
Any time.
If I'm not on Slack, if you really need a response, just call me, WhatsApp me, whatever it takes.
And
First of all it's like a a barrier, right? It's not like a quick message.
So it really is only for urgent stuff. And
You know, all I have like
Yeah, for
twice a year I'll get like a WhatsApp message from my manager, from my team lead, Hey, something urgent is happening in Slack, like we really need you.
And then open Slack, you know, I'll violate my rule. It's totally fine.
Um
But that's like it's so rare.
At uh
This system works for me.
Amazing. Okay. Anything else along those lines? This is awesome.
Little tip.
I personally
keep a weird habit. I I realize it's a weird habit. I call it product scrapbooking.
Um where I have
This like massive notion database.
of every opportunity big or small that's ever come up.
And
When a like a piece of
Evidence.
you know, out in the world comes in. It could be like a support ticket or like a CSM sends a gong call.
Or like there's a really great Slack thread with like a amazing brainstorm happening and ideas.
data piece of data, whatever it is, right?
Oh
file it. I like I actively take a screenshot or whatever it is, I file it.
And I start to like
cluster these in this like really messy notion.
And
The reason I do this is that
I've learned that
You know, we have these like
Road maps and strategies that like seem linear, but like life and customers and you know insights are not.
So
When the time does come around to work on that thing.
And that opportunity comes up.
I can pull up that notion.
And I already have a bunch of like really
You know, in the weeds, real world.
Clues to start with.
And even persuade people that we should dig deeper into this.
Or for example, another advantage is that
uh if I'm on a conversation with a person from sales or CSM
From customer success.
And they'll mention a request.
you know, I can open that up and I'm like, yeah, this is actually the this client and that client and that client also mentioned that.
And
Uh you know, you see like
in their face that they they feel hurt like you've been listening all this time, like you've been writing this down.
Um really
I think that's really important as well.
I love these tips. I love
Product scrapbooking is a term. Make so much sense, and it's just immediately clear what you're gonna be doing. And I love how simple the approach there is.
Is there anything else along those lines or is there
Mm something you want to share around the kind of this other bucket that I think you hinted out of
Helping your team
Set you up for success and get more done.
I believe in
Cultivating
Very self reliant teams.
And I think that's
Really key to being
having a lot more leverage as an IC.
being able to manage multiple teams if needed.
Uh on much bigger areas of the product.
I think the
Key of that is having this mindset.
That product isn't a role.
It's a team.
And
Yeah. I read a quote once.
Um
By Abby Atawadi.
And
She's worked on Netflix and Uber and and she's super experienced and she
So something like it's not about waiting for products, you know, product said this or that or waiting for product, like
We're all product.
And
I really try to like
Have that
That as the cornerstone of a culture of of any team that I uh I'm on.
That
Yeah, I had a a new teammate

uh recently he just joined and uh he was on engineering
And he's he came with me excitedly.
And he's like
I found a case that you didn't think about.
And I was like
Okay, awesome, but hold on, let's talk about language.
Like product is a is not a role, it's a team.
And
Uh whatever it is, I don't even know what it is, but
Everything that
We're we own like it's uh both design was involved.
Engineering was super involved.
You know.
Yes, I was there.
And
It's let's call it
Hey, I found a way to improve the product, or hey, I I found
Something that we didn't think about.
It's really, really important. So first of all, like that language, that culture.
Uh but
You know, it's not like this hub and spoke model and like the
PM is at the center and making all these decisions and
Um you know, passing things through.
So first of all that's like that's like a fundamental mindset.
Uh, it's really important for each team to have.
to to be more high leverage than I see.
The second thing is
Personally
to seek to
Not be needed, but be valuable.
And the difference is
Like
If you think about your day
As a product manager.
Like
Look for situations where
Is there
A game of telephone that's constantly passing through me.
Uh are there a lot of situations where
clearly you're the bottleneck, like your attention, your ability to get to something.
Is the bottleneck.
And a lot of people are waiting on you.
Do you find like
A lot of communication is happening direct messages with you instead of public channels for the team.
Are a lot of working meetings just like you and one other person on the team instead of maybe two or three?
Yeah, not too many either.
So
All those
Are
Like opportunities.
Where
You can create
a different situation where a c a culture on the team where people are figuring things out between themselves.
It may be involving you at the very end.
So one of the things that I
I really put a lot of energy into
Is
really encouraging people to get conversations out of direct messages and into channels.
This is like a really important um
Way to cultivate.
People were just working together and figuring things out.
Between one another.
And
Anytime somebody sends me a direct message, I say, This is a great question.
Can you please put it in this channel with the team? I'll answer there.
But it's really important for me.
that any decisions we make are transparent.
It's easy to find it later.
that you know, there's a few other people who should probably chime in if they want to.
Uh and this could be
At the team level?
Um
I work at a company that had
uh really, really big customer success organization, they'd constantly like find you as a PM and just DM you these questions and I'd say
Great question.
Put it in like this really big channel.
That way
And I give a reason. So that way other people on the customer success team can search the channel and find the answer later.
They can help other people.
And
If you do this enough, it becomes a snowball effect because
Other people on the team.
We'll see that other people are posting in public channels.
And feel more comfortable with it.
And that just becomes a chain reaction.
Such awesome advice.
There's
Like s it's so kinda counterintuitive also, I think, um to a lot of product managers where
You're basically saying
Like remove yourself as a dependency.
uh delegate more, empower everyone in your team, have engineers
Come up with ideas, have them write things.
Like when page respects things like that, like
become less.
Valuable almost, which I think is not the natural.
And
Become obsolete.
And
That's the dream, no?
That's my dream.
I love that.
But I think they're like if I thought of if I think about trying to do this
I think you need like a real confidence as a PM and be
And comfort with
Chaos.
A lot of times PMs
They wanna be the hub because the more they can control the narrative, the more they can control what people see.
PCX pinging an engineer, like, Oh my god, they're just gonna start working on this thing, and then we have this roadmap, we have priorities, and what are they gonna do?
How do you manage that?
Challenge.
Yeah, there's a great phrase I heard a mentor once say, which is culture over process.
you know, process is important and and sometimes you need process to scaffold till you build the culture, but
I think it's it's like you view you gotta view the team as like this
asset you're building, right? This culture is an asset that you're building and you're you're investing in it and you're
You know.
cultivating it and
You want to build something that's stronger than
Uh that's a great example. A CX person or sales person just directly messaging an engineer or just asking for something. You want to build something that's resilient to that. Like that's the real
product that
You're building as a PM, I think.
Is the team that builds the product.
And is resilient to all this thing. It doesn't happen overnight. It's not gonna happen in the first quarter that the team is formed.
But it happens
you know, over time gradually with
little messages and little interactions and positive feedback and you know
asking people to work a little bit differently and giving them a a reason why and building trust
And
You know, I I think that
Success in my job is
To build
a very self reliant team that's very resilient to all those things I
I would otherwise, you know, like you said to keep me up at night and like really make me worried.
You shared an example of how you do that, these little mic I call these micro interactions. Like so much of a PM is these micro interactions with
Team members, which is so much harder now in a remote world.
We can't just walk by and just like
Do a little bit.
T little chat uh the the chat you shared I think is an awesome example where the language
was a really powerful
Shift in how this person thought.
Is there anything else along those lines you could share of how to create this sort of culture?
One thing.
That I try to do.
Is
When somebody
Take something
That would be my job.
Right, and does that like a
Whether it's on the design side they like, you know, lean in more
On the engineering side, they lean in more, people bring ideas, or they say, Hey, I took the liberty of doing this. It could be as small as, you know, something bureaucratic, or like as big as like an idea or a suggestion.
I just
shower them with positivity. I just show them
Just
You know, how excited I am.
But they did that.
that ha you know, I just want that to happen again and then to feel even more bold.
And
Just like when somebody takes something off your plate, when somebody
Yeah.
thing does kind of the the PM what you think is like uh that's PM thinking. What are you doing, right? Just really want them to feel that that is extremely welcome.
And I imagine there's a bunch of coaching you do to like help engineers, designers, researchers, data people think the way you think almost.
To kind of become more PME.
Is that a part of this too?
I don't know if I would call it coaching. It's
Um
It's like a lot like I said, just a lot of little behaviors, so
One thing I try to do along those lines is
When there's something that's
you know, on me to do.
uh for someone or like the next logical step.
Um
I try to do that live with them. So if
Uh, somebody asked me a question about, hey, what does the data show about this? What if we went that direction? I'm like, I don't know, let's find out.
Instead of saying, Hey, I'll get back to you.
Let's open
You know, mixed panel.
Let's play around with this.
And
I don't tell them, hey, it would be great if you I just show them how easy it was. Like, hey, if I could figure this out, like, you know, this Fisher price data for PMs, like this is you could totally figure this out. That's the that's what I'm trying to imply by showing it.
Um
Or
Uh you know, if it's a write a create a Jira ticket just to make something happen quickly and document it.
Uh I'm like, hey, let's just do this together on the call right now and make sure I get it right.
And what you see is over time
You know, some people more than others, but they start to
just naturally want to do that themselves, ask you for that access.
Uh start start to do those things.
You know, um
You know, I did this and I wrote the gear ticket for it. I did this and I did the data analysis and you know that
Rose over time.
You actually have a course that you're uh launching or is out now or about to launch that teaches a lot of these things. Talk about that. Yeah. Um
Uh this is a passion project I'm working on uh with Maven, uh the learning platform.
It's a course called
uh build your personal PM productivity system.
And it it really goes super deep and super practical into these topics exactly. Like
how to design your time, how to manage yourself.
How to manage your emotions.
uh how to cultivate self reliant teams, how to give feedback and create a product org, you know, with less that puts less overhead.
On you as a p as a PM
And
Yeah, it's the the idea is to just take all these topic and just make this like really, really, really hands on.
Awesome. Uh I feel like I wish I had this.
I feel like you're such a
great person to teach this because as an I see
This is
This is how you succeed. This is the thing that makes it hard to stay as an IC.
And again with the rise of AI
Almost
Creating a space for super I Cs, as we talked about.
Feels like this kind of stuff is gonna be more and more important. So
Uh so we'll definitely link to that in the show notes.
I wanna shift to a different topic.
Uh
Yeah, if
You've kind of shown people this already, but you have a lot of very unpopular
uh contrarian opinions about a lot of things.
You see things a little differently.
And there's a few other things that I've seen you talk about that I want to spend a little time on.
So I'm just gonna go through a few of them and just share whatever you wanna share on us. Now good?
Sure. Okay. Okay, cool.
Uh the first is you have this phrase that
Uh
Or this concept that every tech company basically has just two departments that matter.
So yeah, over time working uh at a bunch of uh hypergrowth companies
I've started to notice that there's
Some departments that
Are the reason that company won?
The market?
And
also started to realize that
And this is sometimes true of the department, you know, that I'm in product.
That even if
You know, product did
Ten X job.
Yeah, it wouldn't be a ten X outcome.
For the company over the decade.
But for example, it could be if marketing did a ten X job.
the company would have.
a tenx outcome over the decade.
And
I started to observe this over the years and I noticed
It's roughly usually like two things.
Two companies, uh sorry, two departments.
It's roughly like two departments that
This boils down to in each company.
So
I'll just make this really concrete without naming names.
Uh the companies that I worked at
The two departments at one company was
Product design.
And support.
Like those are the like if those two departments were ten X
then the company would win.
Another company was data accuracy.
And customer success.
Another company.
Was
The thing that made them win in the market.
Was trust slash brand. Like
Trusted brand.
And payments.
And
Another company that I worked at
Looking back, what made them win in the market was
Marketing.
And
Engineering, like scalability.
So
Product sometimes is on this list.
Uh so one of the companies I worked at
I mentioned you know product design product.
Um if
If that department does ten X
Uh impact.
Then the company will succeed ten X in the market.
Uh, but it's
In my career it mostly hasn't been product.
Product has to do a good job.
But it's not the
Yeah.
not the biggest lever for that company, even though it's a tech product company.
And
I think this really crystallised for me when I finally worked in a company where product
Is that department.
You feel that.
Okay, so the uh sixty four thousand dollar question, whatever billion dollar question is, how do you know which of these how do you know which two departments matter most?
First of all, look at what really drives the growth.
Like what's the growth model?
And what are the levers? Ask ask those questions.
How does it work?
Ask officially asked.
That's part of your back channeling and you know, reference checking and
The second thing is if you're really seriously
Checking out a company, evaluating a company.
Truly understand
that customer and like what are they actually paying for in this industry?
Yeah, what is the thing that what is the real
product. What's the real value that they're getting?
Clearly they're paying for a product or a service, but like what is beyond that, what are they actually paying for? Ask those questions.
And I think that'll uh
Make it clear.
I think maybe one
Trick here is just see what
Team drives.
Growth.
Oftentimes it's gonna be sales, oftentimes it's gonna be product.
Experiments they're running.
Could be marketing.
Exactly. And
Um
The
That department if you're
Whatever all you have.
If you're in that department for that company.
That's gonna be your career defining work. Like that's why it's so worth it.
That's gonna be you're gonna attract like
You know.
The best colleagues, your careers are gonna
You know
have a step function jump like it's it's a it's a totally different experience.
And this is when people say a company's engineering driven, product driven, marketing driven, sales driven, this is exactly what they mean, which
team matters most to the company because they are driving most growth.
So if you're a salesperson on a sales driven company, you will
Mm-hmm.
Valued.
More highly than being a product person at a sales driven company.
Yeah.
graduated from college, I had a friend give me advice. He was like
Don't be a finance guy at a tech company and don't be a tech guy at a finance company.
Yeah.
This was
Two thousand nine, so like
Yeah. Anyways. Yeah. And I think this is where a lot of people struggle where they're PM.
at a company that's very not product driven and they he read all these books about being empowered and
Having agency and autonomy and
And instead they're just the team that people they're just feature factories because
Other teams are on the show and we don't need your opinions, we know
We know how to grow this thing, just build this thing for us.
And here's the thing.
That's okay.
Like that's what that company needs.
You know, to succeed in the market.
You know.
You think about
The Olympics. This is analogy.

Um if you let's say uh you can think like
How a marathon runner looks.
And how a swimmer looks.
They're very different.
They look very different. You can you can spot them, you know.
And in the room of athletes.
And
If you imagine
you know, product being a lap muscle.
That's
Product department.
You know, you can be a lot muscle for a marathon runner or you can be one for a swimmer.
And American Runner needs one and it needs to work.
Uh but
Right. It's
Do you want where do you want to be that lap muscle? On the swimmer or on the on the marathon runner?
I love that analogy.
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Let's move on to another uh let's say hot take that you have.
Yeah, this kind of phrase that there's a big difference between book smart decision making and street smart decision making.
What's that about?
Yeah, uh this one comes out of uh a lot of mistakes I've made myself and uh
Seen
Around me as well.
Uh so I'm I'm so guilty of this.
Book smart decision making as a PM is all the stuff we talk about all the time.
That's data.
you know, uh design, technology, strategy, frameworks, all that stuff. And it's really important and
You know, it's why we're strong at it.
Street Smart
Decision making is
Taking all that and then
Sing
Something from somebody else's point of view.
This goes beyond empathy.
Like
Giving the
Customers perception just as much
Weight as you would to logic.
Um
A really big example of this, and I I won't name the company
I was at this company that
Changed the structure of the pricing.
And
The
Change was
Actually not meant to make more money.
It was meant to unblock a payments roadmap and like enable all these feature requests that were stuck behind this.
fundamental change.
And
In preparing for this, the company did a lot of analysis.
And just made sure that
You know.
This was really actually really good for customers and
Uh
But this would this would only um
Like on the numbers and the predictions and the models where like this is a positive thing.
And
I know all the people that were involved.
or the most empathetic really did this because they really cared about this customer.
Uh, genuinely I've never seen people that are you know, at the executive level
um at the product level, at the data level, like these are the people who who really genuinely wanted the best.
uh for this customer.
And
They rolled out the change.
And
In reality what
Well bottom line, there was a big you know
Revolt on the internet. It it was it was a big deal and uh it was rolled back.
And the bottom line, why
There's such a
Gap.
Between
You know, everything actually, by the way, all the analyses proved out to be to be correct.
All the models, all the predictions, like everything played out.
Yeah, the numbers as as predicted, the problem was the perception.
Uh the narrative behind it, what it looked like.
When you've logged into the product.
And
You saw only the negative, but you didn't see all the positive because the positive was
You know, what happened thirty days later and you saw the negative immediately.
You know, a lot of things like that.
And
Yeah.
I I would have made exactly the same mistake. I w you know I
Not a criticism, I I would have probably made more mistakes. But that that's like what opened my mind to
Oh my God, you have to really think.
More than just logical. More than just like, you know, utilitarian.
Another example of this is
There's a a company I worked at where
All the
Features that were on a
A higher plan.
were invisible to the lower plans just because it everything was built really fast and it was just uh it was time to
To make them visible so people could upgrade.
So we got that ready.
And
And we did this and we're about to release it.
And we realized
You know
Tomorrow morning.
A bunch of customers are gonna log into the product.
And
There's all these features that they've been asking us for because they didn't know that we have them because they were locked only on higher plan.
Suddenly.
From their point of view.
The company built everything they'd asked for.
And
All of it?
Requires paying more money.
How are they gonna feel?
And so
We didn't roll it out that way, we rolled out
in smaller pieces and you know in different ways. Um
Because we realize like that's gonna feel really shitty.
If you think about it, you know.
But
Practically speaking, or theoretically speaking, we didn't
We didn't uh
Upsell every anything we didn't
start to you know, these are all things we already had built. Everything's above board.
That's the perception that was gonna happen.
And that's like an example. Is there anything?
That triggered that.
recognition or is it just
People sitting around being like, Oh, what about this? Or was it

Point where you
Customers were telling you this isn't
necessarily what they want and you're like, No, no, no, you're gonna do great. Trust us. It's gonna be really good for you.
But there's feedback at least in the second examples or something that's like
And I'm what I'm asking about is like how
How can people develop the skill'cause I I love this advice.
I think that intuition came from
Um
spending time in the customer community and support tickets and just
Noticing
Smaller versions of that.
Um that people have feedback on?
And you kind of
Start to see
You know.
What
our customers, you know, at the time with like what they would tend to, like what their suspicions always were and like they're very like
you know, trigger happy to blame the company for XYZ and
Uh if you see enough
You know, raw data from customers.
Yeah. Or if you get on a customer call and they mention
Nickel and diming and all these things, right? Like you start to understand like this is this is the target
Persona. This is this is how they think. This is what they're sensitive to. It's interesting'cause at Airbnb there was a lot of that, a lot of hosts being really upset about changes.
Like constantly.
Everything that changed their
And usually the changes are to help the business in some way, help the guest in many ways.
And it's always this balance of we're just gonna we gotta do this. This just
The future.
Is there anything there, just real quick of just like learning when we gotta do this anyway, even though they're gonna be pissed.
Versus like oh shit, let's roll this back. Okay.
Yes, for sure. Um, this is just this is just like what I'm talking about is to recognize it. What you do with it, right? Is a different thing.
But
You know I I joke when we when we do uh changes to
um like redesigns or changes to the UX and we're gonna get inevitable, you know, complaints. I just tell my team
We're gonna deploy this and we're all gonna log out of social media for two weeks.
That's the strategy.
Right. That's extreme. We don't actually do that and
Of course, but that's what we uh
Wish we could do sometimes.
And the insight there is just social media will amplify one person's loud voice.
Versus
Like how many people actually are upset about this?
How important are they to the business, right? It's like don't pay attention to the loudest person.
We're also
Um
The I think the key there is the two weeks.
Because if people are still complaining after two weeks, okay, then there's something here.
Mm.
In those two weeks there's gonna be a lot of
feedback that comes from a resistance to change, so they're gonna
You know dot two and
We can't won't won't be able to remember what was before.
Uh, but you know, sometimes you you make mistakes and
Yeah, people.
You know, if there's a real mistake, you'll know about it.
For a long time.
Yeah, and obviously he'll pay attention to like support tickets and all that stuff.
It's just a disclaimer like
During this those two weeks we look at every support ticket and yeah, look at everything on social media and we yeah, for sure. Okay.
I have two more examples about the the Street Smart Books Mart that are that are really important. Oh, please, let's do it. Let's do it.
This has happened twice to me, um, where
I
I worked on a team that
made a very logical UX change.
And
quickly found out that we ruined the sales demo.
So
For the users of the product.
The
You know, y the experience became a little bit smoother.
It was an optimization, wasn't something critical.
But then
For
Uh the sales demo.
It communicated a value
Less. It was harder to for people to really understand.
You know, in in one glance.
So a lot of times
Uh this comes from taking something that's very
Like visual and making it very efficient and small.
So you might gain, you know, fewer clicks but
It'll make it harder.
Sure.
our the sales team to you know to communicate.
uh and for that ha moment to happen on a call. To the point where
Uh we made this change and then salespeople
Would send me gong link.
Recordings.
You know, in the past and in the current demos and just show me the difference and it would
It pain me to watch these and I was like, Oh, we gotta fix this. Like people aren't getting the value how they're even gonna experience it.
Okay.
I know that you have a couple more hot takes.
That I wanted to make sure we had time for.
One that I love that I agree with, and it's kind of the thesis of this podcast almost.
Which is that
There's no right way to get things done.
In a product team and in business.
Uh
In spite of what you may read online.
I'd love to hear your take here.
Yeah, I didn't always understand this.
In fact I
Moved
Continents.
Uh because I had
Professional FOMO.
So I moved
Um
From Israel.
to San Francisco.
Because I
believed
And actually a lot of people
You know, have that feeling that
You know
Whatever we're doing here.
in Silicon Valley, they know how to work. Like that's the big leagues.
And I
Got to work shoulder to shoulder.
With people who came from Apple.
Um
Utu.
Salesforce, Facebook.
You know, Slack, Amazon.
Straight.
I got to work with the people who came from these companies I admired so much.
And
I came over with the conclusion that
We're all just
Making it up as we go along.
In tech.
Uh, we're all just improvising as we should. That's the beauty of it.
Every situation is different. Every market is different.
Right, every company's different.
What it takes to win is different.
And
So
Myself, I've had phases where I've been this like zealot of, you know, everything has to be outcomes driven.
And
Uh
then I've gone to like let's just ship as much as possible, figure it out and everything needs to be A B testd and
Uh you know, quarterly planning has to work this way and
Should do scrum. And they just realized like
There is no
It's not that simple.
It's about
figuring out the problem at hand and optimizing for that and having an open mind.
And just
Understanding that we're all improvising.
It's really powerful and I
I think people may hear this and be like, Yeah, I think I get it.
I guess for people that are just
You know, everyone's reading
Reading my newsletter, reading all the newsletters, re listening to podcasts, listening to how people w work.
What's your advice? Is it just like what should people think in your c mind when they read about how another company runs?
My personal story w like one of the things that happened when I
landed in San Francisco, I really felt like an imposter.
It's like okay, well, everybody else here really knows, you know.
how to work and I need to like learn from them.
And
Six months later
I found myself giving talks and writing blog posts about how to work.
Yeah, you know, like block post that
you know, were being used in like reforge courses and and all that and
uh advising people and and sharing.
And
That's one I mean, like that's the beauty.
Of this industry.
Is that that can happen because everything is changing so fast, like because
Like I how like how did I get there?
I was just
on a team doing something
Really difficult and interesting.
In a very unique way.
And
You d that's how you learn. That's like the real way to learn.
Um
My manager, Adam Fishman, at the time.
I told me
You know.
Something related to this, which is like
The best networking
is just to do really good work at a successful company and like everything else will work out. So I think the same goes for like learning
Right. The best learning
is to just to do really good work.
at a really good company with really good people.
And solve problems that have never been solved before in in this way, which will inevitably happen, right? That's w what we're all doing.
Um
And everything else will work out. Like you'll be the one
Writing the blog posts, not just reading them.
Such important advice.
So kind of the takeaway here is just
If you want to become much better.
If you want to be the one sharing advice versus the one reading advice.
Easier said than done, but
The advice is
Work at a company doing interesting hard things.
Driving impact.
being growing, being successful, and that's that's how you level up.
Yeah.
I love that. It's the best way. Yeah. Yeah. And again, easier said than done. Not everyone can join an awesome, you know, high flying tech startup.
Um
Interestingly, you did this like in Israel, right? Away from the core of Silicon Valley. So you can find great places outside of outside of Silicon Valley.
Absolutely. Okay.
So
I know that uh
You wanted to spend a bunch of time in failure corner.
Which I love.
It's this recurring segment on this podcast where folks share times they failed in their career and things they've learned from those.
experiences and you may you wanted me to
Carve out meaningful time here, which tells me that you've had a lot of these experiences.
For better or worse.
So what I'm thinking is let's just go through a few of these stories that you think might be helpful to people to hear about times you
Things didn't go great.
And what you learn from those experiences. How does that sound?
Yeah.
Um
Yeah, it's really important for me.
To share this, I think
during s you know, low points in my career.
having someone uh share with me
A failure story.
Um
Just really helped me understand that that's part of it.
And I'm not alone and
You know
You browse LinkedIn, you see these incredible profiles with these incredible pedigree.
And
Well you don't see yeah, it gives you this like sense that everybody's just had a smooth sailing and everything's going great.
Um
And everybody has had, you know
Some
Everybody who's been here long enough is
A ton of failure stories and ton of low points and self doubt. So
It's really meaningful for me to just talk about this.
Let's do it. Let's get into it. Let's get real.
So
Um
I'll say this.
I've wasted
Twice. Twice I've wasted an entire
quarter
of a growth team's time.
Because of
My poor use of user research.
Hm.
Uh first time
I I can look back and after twelve failed A B tests
And then you know, twelve failed A B tests set us on the right path and got us to re you know, revisit our hypothesis, but
If I had only spent more time with
The customer and this was
Yeah, the kind of uh A B testing that
People say, No, you can't do user research, you can't ask somebody what their you know
how a button's gonna affect their purchasing, but
If I had spent
Time
with the customer to just understand
Who they are, what motivates them.
how they got there, why they're paying
All that stuff I would understand that
Um
Not every checkout process.
You know, is the same psychology as Groupon.
Or
you know, Amazon or Booking dot com.
So
The things that work
On those sites work.
Not just'cause
You know, people are the same.
Uh everywhere. But
They work because
People are in the same mindset.
You know on
For for Groupon, for example.
Amazon is different, booking dot com is different.
And what you're working on.
Why people are buying
You know?
in the situation that I was I was in.
Was so different.
They
Had so much motivation over such a long period of time.
You know, they
They uh had
Um
Constant reminders.
naturally in their lives that they were happy to get.
And
The things that didn't work were all the things that work, you know, that the Groupon and Booking and Amazon and all these e commerce sites did. Those were not relevant.
And we tried all those things and they fell flat. The moment we realized
That
And it clicked for us.
Uh, and all these you know, all these A B tests that should have printed money.
Did nothing.
Once we realise that
um then it we really start to you know increase conversion and it was a super successful team. But
Man, I look back and if I had just r you know
I just use more qualitative research, even though it was an area that traditionally you don't use qualitative research.
I gotta save so much time.
It's also a great reminder of just not assuming
wins that work at another company win for you.
Which I think everyone's like, Yeah, I know that, but
I think people don't know that. I think they often oh, look at this. Amazon's killing it with this feature. We're gonna if we add it, we're gonna
We're gonna win so hard.
And so this is a great reminder. Don't just take stories from other the something Shrias actually talks about a lot is
Don't take stories from other companies as
Cospull at your company.
Th there's so many things that are
Not the same.
Awesome. Yeah. What else? What else you got?
Um
I was building a referral program.
And
Uh we
We had a user research plan and we ended up only executing half of it, which means we
Talk to the people.
Cool.
We're already using it successfully.
And
We decided to skip.
Uh talking to the people who
Should use it, but didn't.
And we're like, Yeah, we got it, it's probably the same feedback.
We're in a rush for a lot of other reasons. There's a lot of pressure. Um
Just unrelated reasons and
Just decided that okay, we have enough information, we don't need to spend more time. Let's start shipping.
And
That was a huge mistake as well. Just spend so much time building something that didn't work.
Um
And uh
Yeah, I think my my lesson there is
The reasons that
Got me to a hurry.
and and you know make make that decision with l with not as much data.
Uh reasons that
I just kinda took people's word for stuff. I
Um I didn't think as first principles as I should and
Uh I I really caved into the time pressure.
So
Yeah.
It's like tall things. Just letting it all out. This is great.
Um
And so so far our recurring theme is
Spend a little more time to use the research, talk to more customers.
Yeah, something we always hear, but
A lot of people are like, Ah, I use a research.
I don't need that. And what we're hearing here is
would have saved your team months and quarters, potentially.
Yeah.
Each of those each of those wasted entire quarter.
Oh jeez.
All right.
Cool. All right. What else? What else we got?
I have
Um
Three times.
been a hair away from getting fired. And and what I mean by that is a senior executive has come to me and said, You are a hair away from getting fired.
Uh

Oh.
And uh
One of them
Um
You know, one of them is there were uh changes that the head of product really wanted to make.
And I
uh I felt strongly that it shouldn't be made and I voice that directly, um, candidly, personally.
And
Re repeatedly?
And
Then I we had that conversation and a colleague, listen, um
Look at it this way, like
If you trust the leadership team
To adapt if something's not working. I said, Yeah, I trust them.
Well
Like what they need from you is
just to rely on you that you're gonna be with them even if in the the disagree and commit. Like that's what they need from you.
If you're right.
They'll adapt.
If you're wrong, then great, you learned something, you know, product work got better.
So
The most important thing was
You know, there's like a song that
the lyrics that goes You got to give and a win.
Um
Like it wasn't about being right. It was about
Just like
Being supportive and
Uh letting things fix themselves instead of uh
So
That was
That was that moment. It was really like literally that was that was the conversation.

The second moment, the bigger story, but
I was on a group
That
The uh
My manager and I
Um
We just weren't a fit.
And that happens, it's really important to share that happens. It's it's
It's common.
And
It's somebody I respect
Deeply.
and has done amazing things and I still respect them and
Um, we just we didn't work well together.
And the next step was okay, well I guess, you know
It's time to let me go.
And
Uh his manager's like hey, you know
Before we let you go.
I I want you to stay at this company.
And let's find you another group to work in.
So
I was like, Okay, he's like just finish
You know, the initiatives you're on, don't start new ones.
And quarterly planning is coming up, sit in all the meetings.
Look for opportunities.
And and
Things will work out.
And
I did that.
And I didn't find
uh an opportunity that I was excited about.
And my initiatives wound down.
And
I didn't know
Okay, well what what's gonna happen?
Um
And
Then uh there was a group were actually three PMs left at the same time. One went on maternity leave.
Uh one uh got an offer from Fang and one had to start like an emergency tiger team.
Uh for their area of expertise.
And
Uh this director he filled two of the roles, one internal hire, one external hire, and there was one more role.
And uh I reached out to him and he's like, Yeah, great.
You know, come
Put your desk next to mine, we'll just uh
Just uh work on a few projects together, get to know each other.
And I could tell after a few weeks that even though we'd been getting to know each other
He was still interviewing for that third role.
And I realized that like something was stuck.
And at the same time
Uh director who
had uh reached out and said, Hey, please say it's company, you know
You'll find something called me with a very different tone. He's like, Listen
You can't just float around without a roll.
Um, if you don't find something, you know, soon, we're gonna have to let you go.
And he was right.
And
So I found myself in this situation
And
I actually reached out to a friend, Guy Pellad, he's a friend and a mentor. I I actually met him through the uh
Funny community.
Um yeah, he's here in Israel. We got coffee.
And so
And he told me, listen, like
Clearly you have nothing to lose. Like there's probably an elephant in the room, you know, this
New director.
Uh is wondering why'd you leave this old group?
He's not opening, he's not broaching the topic.
Uh so it's up to you to do it.
And I was like, Okay, what do I say? He's like, Well, what what would you say to him if you didn't have to edit yourself, you didn't have to censor yourself, and I just
I told Guy, Well, this is this is what actually happened this is what I believe. This is what I did. Could have done better, this is what you know.
He's like
He's like, dude, that's
Totally fine to share. You should share that, like the word for just say that.
So
The next day.
Um
I took uh
The director, you know, aside and I we had this conversation I shared
Uh vulnerability just like here's what I
I think I messed up. Here's what I think I I wasn't under my control.
And
That
Conversation.
Just uh like
the the vibe change, I could feel like a weight off our shoulders.
It was like we really felt like we got closer and
Um
Two days later I was, you know, part of the group. I joined the group.
Did some really awesome work there.
It's such a powerful lesson right there of just
Mm.
Opening up and being vulnerable and just
Sharing what you're actually feeling.
This has come up a couple of times in the podcast, is what brings people closer.
You think being vulnerable and showing weakness
Makes people think less of you, but almost always it
They think more of you because they
Didn't realize what they're doing, they didn't realise what you were going through.

Yeah, we've all been through that. Like
You know, it doesn't look like it. Doesn't when you see someone suc you think is successful that you admire.
Uh you you look at somebody's uh LinkedIn profile, you look at their resume, you look at their bio.
Right.
It doesn't look like that, but
We've all been through all of it.
You know?
Right, and most times folks don't know that's what you're feeling or going through and so just sharing here's what I
Here's what I'm seeing, here's what I'm feeling, here's why things may be
Or working for me.
Goes a long way.
Amazing.
These are awesome stories.
What else?
Where else have you failed?
I've single handedly tanked new payments.
Uh for a whole week for a a company I worked for?
Um it was a well meaning change. It was super logical. It was kinda streamlined
And I violated my own framework for when do you run an A B test. I even wrote like a blog post about this, and I violated that.
Yeah. And uh I was like, Oh, there's no downside here and you know, we need we don't need to measure this. This is just gonna make things uh way smoother.
And then I get a call for marketing and they're like, Why are none of our campaigns converting?
Um listen to your own advice.
Run A B test sometimes. Run A B test sometimes. Yeah. If you're dealing with really sensitive uh flows that have big downsides, even if you think, you know, logically in your mind there's no reason there should be a downside here.
Great. Yeah. If the stakes are really high. Yeah.
All right, what else?
I have some stories, I don't know if they're failure stories, but they're kinda like Wild West
Yeah.
Let's do it.
That's what it feels like. It's like
Um
One time I
Um
Completely disabled quarterly planning. I was
you know, my team was told to be w to do one thing and we just said no, we we're gonna do something else. It's not as dramatic as it sounds, it was like
you know, hey, we really, really believe that this is an opportunity and if we we delay this, there's gonna be like a really nonlinear cost opportunity cost to this, and we really should do this. I'm like, no, you should still work on this. Like, okay, well what if we, you know
made it a really small team and it was just for one quarter
And then
You know, like fine, okay.
We had built that that capital to be able to do that. But
Yeah.
Uh I remember your W framework post. I love that.
And I don't know what what letter that would be.
But that's how that's it. Split it off into it, make it a Y.
Uh but most importantly, did it work? Was that a good idea? That it was that a a right hole.
Uh
It was a right call that it's it's become
uh way bigger team today. And yeah, I still s I still read, you know, press releases and and blog posts from
other company where it's clearly that team's work uh continues. So
Excellent.
I got lucky though.
Um
Yeah. All right. Sounds like
Uh
Again, this is this is just like
Wild West. You know, Wild West.
Like PM
It's no less wild than than life itself. I
Uh
I've pulled an April Fools prank.
on an executive team that resulted in
my CEO
Seeing me
Like next time he saw me, he just looked me in the eye and said, Fuck you, tall.
And walked away.
Can you describe the prank?
So
The prank was
Well I'll I'll say first of all the best A for Fool Spranks.
Are the ones that
Touch
Just
Ever so gently on people's uh biggest fears.
Uh at that time.
So in a work context, like whatever somebody's biggest strategic fear is that quarter or like that March of that year.
Right, whatever people are talking about.
Like you just have to touch it a little bit, they'll do the rest of the work. So
Uh this company.
Uh they there's this really big debate about internationalization.
And
uh should we do that and it was there's a big trade off to doing and other things we could be doing with the same resources.
And
The
The this is just on everybody's minds, especially the leadership team.
And it was March, so
Um
My uh my buddy and I
Uh also the company we
decided l what would be people's biggest fears would be
That
uh a really big company would launch the same thing.
in Europe.
And
We created not just a fake
Screenshot, like not just fake news, we created a fake
Domain name, website, publication
Um it was like really uh detailed. We really invested a lot in it.
And
Of this like German website.
And
It was we made up a a tech arm of their spiegel.
We call the Spiegel Tech, we bought the domain.
I'm probably incriminating myself by saying this.
And
Then what we did is we knew that if we had
Sent that link.
On the first of April.
To the executive team, nobody would believe it.

So what we did is every executive on the leadership team has that like senior
Report.
That they really trust.
So we got all them in on it.
And the link would come from them.

And
Each of them.
Um
Took it further.
Like
the senior engineer who's like this really critical to the company.
He created a fake
Uh recruiting, poaching.
Email.

If I recall, I think the legal council
Uh created a fake cease and desist.
Like we just want to allow it.
And then um
And this was on a Saturday, so we ruined the executive team Saturday. They had like an emergency call. It was a Saturday.
We we ruined the executive team Saturday.
And every time that
Uh we decided that
you know, a a particular executive had suffered enough, like depending when they woke up.
And how long they had been.
You know.
Dealing with us?
Uh, we would let them in on it, let them into the private channel.
And you know haha.
So
Monday rolls around.
COC's me.
Fuck you tall.
Great.
Um
I'm still still employed.
And
I hear later that day.
That
uh the leadership team had their Monday meeting.
And somebody mentioned
That
Uh you know.
Even though that was a prank, it really got me thinking, and then the
CTO of the company.
Um goes, Wait, what do you mean prank?
And he dawns on it dawns on him.

And he just gets up, throws down his jacket and like walks out of the room. So
We forgot to tell him.
He had to, you know, steal with that the whole weekend. So
Yeah, sometimes you gotta something goes too far. That is well executed.
Oh my God.
It actually reminds me at Airbnb when I was
I was leading a lot of the April Fool's jokes year after year, and one of the best ones we did was we launched it's basically we did the opposite of what you did.
We launched Air B R B.
Which was a desk sharing service.
And we made like a whole launch video. We like announced it as like a new product, Air B R B and the idea is like you go get lunch and you can
I'll be right back and then your desk can be rented out for like twelve twenty minutes.
And we had a whole website and we had like yeah amazing video launching it.
And uh
Basically it was the opposite, all the desk sharing companies
Got freaked out.
Oh no.
Because very legit.
It's their it's the greatest sphere, yeah.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Yeah.
And uh the good news is we quickly they quickly was no not not real.
But we probably led to some calls.
Some board calls.
Okay.
This is awesome. Any other stories?
I've had thousands of people
Tag my CO on Twitter calling on him to fire me.
This was by accident, but yeah.
Um
I I was actually on vacation and
Um
I got bored and I was like, I haven't logged into Twitter, I haven't
posted anything on Twitter for a while. What's like what's going on on Twitter?
And I see that the uh notifications
Number.
uh is like maxed out it's like nine ninety nine plus or whatever and I was like, Wait, what?
And I click the notifications tab and
I see the first tweet is has at
CEO handle fired at Tall Reviews.
Yeah it's
Um, and I saw that that has like a ton of retweets and I just keep scrolling down and I start to piece together the story and
Um
There was a
I changed
The the pricing change.
Earlier I said had an uh uproar.
And the internet was up in arms about this and
Somebody found
A blog post.
From a year earlier.
It was Brian Balfour interviewed me about an onboarding experiment that we did.
And
Part of that interview.
I shared.
That
You know,
At this company, we'd rather have fewer customers where we make a bigger impact on their lives than a lot of company a lot a lot of customers that we make.
uh smaller impact.
And kinda explaining the logic and the the product principles.
Um
Yeah, that was like core really core to the mission.
Of a company.
And somebody took a very limited screenshot of that to prove that, you know.
Uh Tal Raviv hates
poor people or something. And
Um
That screenshot went viral.
And that
Those tweets got embedded on like N PR and Washington Post.
And
That was that was a little nerve wracking. Um
I wasn't fired'cause I uh she wasn't connected to that.
I wasn't on that. I really felt bad.
uh that the
uh the PR team marketing team and all that I I I I reached out to them was like I'm so sorry, like you know, you guys are working overtime because of my big mouth. And they're like, Don't worry, like this is happening to everybody at the company right now. Everybody's having you know
People are digging stuff up, unrelated stuff.
Um
But uh
Yeah.
That's stuff that happens.
What a life you've led.
Talk.
Um, maybe just to close out this uh portion of our
Discussion.
Is there something that you think people should most take away from
This really important stuff you're sharing of just like things that
Usually don't go
Well for people that
do well in pro like there are many things that go wrong.
Well, so the feedback I get from executives about these moments that really
I think is transferable and helpful is
That they know that no matter how silly I'm being
Or
You know, what kind of stuff I get myself into.
N
They know for a fact that I how much I how seriously I take everything.
Like they know how much I I'm ta if I make a funny presentation about something
Right, I put a lot of jokes into it.
But they're like
You s it's still extremely clear how seriously you're taking this.
So I have peace of mind.
Yeah, I think I think uh you uh you have to have both. You can't just
You know.
Have these adventures or do these silly things or make these like
His mistakes like
it's important to give the confidence that you know you're making a mistake, you're on top of it before anybody else.
That
You know
It's bothering you more than anybody else.
Uh that you've
If you're if you're communicating and you're trying to make it creative and like
That
First of first of all, you've done all your homework and you you know, you've put a ton into it.
And that gives you the basis. Like
The funny side of this is I have friends who make fun of me that
I work really hard to justify to I like my friends that make fun of me.
I have friends who make fun of me the the
I work really hard.
So that I can increase the amount of bullshit that I can get away with having fired. Depends how you look at it, but it's really important to give that to giving that
Peace of mind.
Yeah, build that trust bucket and then just deplete it completely. Throw it out the window. Throw it out the window.
Amazing.
Tell is there anything else that
You wanna share
before we get to our very exciting lightning round. We've covered
A ton of stuff. All kind it feels like there's been three podcasts within one podcast. Um, but just before we move on, is there anything else you want to share, touch on, or leave listeners with?
Oh let's do it.
It's like a lightning round, yeah.
Well, with that we reached our very exciting lightning round. I've got five questions.
Are you ready?
I'm ready.
First question, what are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people?
The best book on product management that I've read.
Um
It's called How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk.

Uh I encountered this book.
Uh, my sister is a speech therapist and she had on her bookshelf at home.
In her apartment?
And uh it was jet lag one night, I was visiting her and uh I read it.
And
If anybody has read uh Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss, where he talks about how
these like senior FBI agents in seventies, eighties were realizing that all they were doing in their like negotiating tactics were just
Not working.
And decided to try something different.
Um and that's something is basically nonviolent communication.
And he gives these a amazing examples of decades of using this with kidnappers and
You know, terrorists and and um organized crime.
Uh to diffuse situations.
And uh create productive outcomes.
So
Uh
This book?
You know, with all due respect to uh FBI agents and and terrorists and hijackers and kidnappers, right? Like
This is about kids. Uh so
Um this book is for me, this is what really the example is how it's communicated.
It's like
Uh illustrated almost like a comic book.
Uh tons of super concrete examples.
And for me I think that's one
these principles really sunk in is is from that that book really, uh
uh resonated f with me the most more than the book itself for nonviolent communication or the never split the difference, both of which are awesome.
So
I really recommend that book.
Man, I w I wanna do a whole podcast on what you learned there, but I'm gonna force myself to move on.
Yeah. That's awesome. That's gonna be really helpful to me as a new parent.
There's um
There's a book that another I'm just gonna throw out a book recommendation reverse lighting around on this topic.
That Joe Hudson recent podcast guest.
recommended offline that I've found to be incredibly helpful. It's called Listen.
It's an orange book, so there's a few on Amazon and we'll link to it in the show notes, but it's just called Listen.
And it's
about why listening is the most powerful way to
Help your kids get through stuff that is challenging to them.
It's not gonna be a powerful title.
Just listen.
That's it.
And there's all these different ways of listening. So anyway, okay, we'll keep going. Um
Do you have a recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed?
I recently rediscovered
Ted Lasso.
Mm.
Uh the first time I watched it, I uh I got tons of recommendations. It's hilarious. I didn't connect to it. I just didn't connect to the humor. I was like, ah, okay, fine.
Yeah.
I stopped watching it.
Um
And
Then I I heard a podcast where somebody recommended watching it from a point of view of like leadership lessons and they just couldn't
Stop recommending. They just so passionately recommended it. And I was like, Okay, let me revisit this.
Um
And
When you watch it from that point of view.
It's mind blowing.
If you think about I I'm sure mo you know
ton of people listening to this have have watched the show.
You think about the premise of the show, it's this guy who's been given
An impossible task.
And he's surrounded by
Like the worst human beings in the world. In terms of, you know, they're yeah, just the worst human beings in behaviors.
And
Um the way he gets through that
Right is
It's hard to describe. You have to watch it.
Um
I think any any attempt to to summarize it, but the the show, like just watching and how how this character behaves and gets through this stuff is
It's incredible when you watch it from that point of view.
And
For me when I
Um
Yeah.
It
Definitely affected how I work.
Definitely influence me, but not just work, like
Just also how I
Deal with
You know, aggressive
Middle Eastern
Urban life.
situations how I
uh deal with
I was I was
apply this uh dealing with really tough locals, uh
Surf breaks.
You know, in South America.
Like
It's incredible. Uh
I I' I I'll give a story of the surf break. I was in in Chile and
Um
I was uh surfing and it was an hour of the day where a lot of the people who were local would be surfing.
And a bunch came out.
And
Uh, they started giving me these like looks, you know, this happens in everywhere in the world, every surf break.
Um
And
Just like I'm really uncomfortable.
And
Um
One of the guys especially.
And after a while I was re realizing like I'm not gonna get the surf if I if this if this keeps up and you know
I'm not there's no
conflict way to get out of this.
And
I w I swam up to him.
Uh and I
I asked him, I was like
Hey yeah.
Are you from
Like PG Lemo, are you from here?
He's like, Yeah, why?
I was like, You are one of the luckiest people in the world.
And
Yeah.
He didn't you know, he was totally caught off guard. He he started smiling.
Um
And like you know
That just changed the whole vibe. Um it got to a point where
You know, he was telling other people like, you know, let me have this wave and
Um
That's not my experience, you know, in a lot of surf breaks and
Um
I you know, my friend calls it the the Ted Lasso. The Ted Lasso somebody.
Uh, which is also very genuine, like you really have to believe it.
Okay.
Next question. Do you have a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really love?
So this morning I spent uh half the day surfing and
I think the the products I've really come to appreciate. There's not a lot of products used in surfing. It's like a wetsuit and like board shorts.
You know, maybe a hat.
But
You can really feel
Uh
Like I s I s uh surf with
Uh O'Neill wet suit, hyperfrequent wetsuit, but
It doesn't matter. It's it's like when a
A piece of gear is like
Really well constructed.
You can feel that the person behind this
also surfs or spends a lot of time with surfers.
And really gets you. Probably gets you more than
You understand on face value.
And you start to notice all these details.
Um over time. It takes a long time to notice all these details.
And you can really feel that there's a person behind this product that gets you.
And it's like
It's kinda like art almost, you know, when
You feel
You know, a piece of art.
Or music really resonates with you, you feel that the artist is like
communicating with you directly and
Ex letting you feel something that they were feeling.
Uh it's almost like that.
So
Um
I think like for me it's outdoor equipment, but
Yeah.
You can feel that the the person behind us is like using it along there with you.
First time a wetsuit's been recommended on the podcast.

Great milestone.
Two more questions.
Your favorite life motto?
That you often come back to find useful in work or in life, share with friends or

I think I uh can't I'm doing uh three surf stories in a row, but um
My my this is a life model that's just like stuck in my head.
Um
For almost a dec yeah, for more than a decade now.
Which it comes from
A piece of plywood
Outside of surf shop in Mexico.
Um that was painted on it.
You can't stop the waves, but you can learn how to surf.
Yeah.
And uh
Yeah.

There's a lot to that that you know over time that I've
Really try to apply that.
In a lot of ways, uh emotionally.
Um
Organizationally, like at every level.
You think about that?
Along those lines, final question. So at the beginning of this podcast, you mentioned that this podcast has been a long time coming.
And the reason that's the case is we had this
scheduled for some time in early October.
Uh you live in Israel, uh
War broke out.
You've been living through that.
Being in Israel this entire time.
I saw this Venn diagram that you put out that I think summarizes your life.
Right now, which is uh
Uh, I forget one side of it, but just like Apocalypse. Apocalypse. One circle, the other's gotta go get to work.
You gotta wake up and make Israel. Israel's in the middle, that's what yeah. And you've been for real that for the past year.
So I'd love to just
Briefly just hear how that's been for you in the past year. How are you doing? How's
How's life?
For you.
Here at Riverside
We've had a bunch of people out for reserve duty.
Um
Think all
All of them are back now.
Mm.
I have uh team lead.
Uh
Well, people are still going in and out of reserve duty while working here.
Uh I have a team lead
who leaves around some days around
You know, four PM
Uh goes to the base.
Uh won't say what he what he has to do, but
It's super intense.
And shows up the next morning a little tired, but
Back at work.
And um
And general, uh we have
It's not just in Israel, we have teammates in Ukraine.
Um all long at the same time.
Yeah, like uh one of my teams is uh almost entirely in Ukraine.
So you'll have we had we've had moments where
You know, we're we'll all be on a call.
Mm-hmm.
You know, missile
Siren.
Here in Israel, here in Tel Aviv.
Um and we'll say, Hey, sorry, we gotta go.
Go down to the shelter.
hear the explosions overhead.
Come back, sit sit back down.
Later that day.
We'll have another meeting.
And on the Ukraine side.
You know you'll hear like
Yeah, that that beeping.
Isn't that the the missile alert?
You know, on your end and
Andre, like isn't that the that the critical error on your iPhone?
He he looks at his phone he'll be like,
Yeah, but I got ten minutes. Like let's just finish the meeting.
Right, like all these these like surreal moments where
You just
At the same time where everything's
Not normal.
People have this really strong desire for normalcy.
It's
You know, work.
And everything around us and our routines like
become more important than ever.
And
It's just these you know, you have oh, you know, where's blood? Oh
the you know, the power grid was attacked in his town, so he's working on g getting the generator back up.
Um okay.
Um but
You know.
I don't know if it's like a no excuses mindset or badassry so much as
I know in my end, it's just a
Like, I think for Ukraine team definitely for mine, it's just like
Really.
really crave the routine and and the sense of normalcy when you can get those moments and
Um
Like I said, I I you know, I think during this podcast, working on this course, all these things I'm
Not doing them because
Things are normal, I'm doing them because they're not.
So
Yeah.
And
I'll use this opportunity.
To say that
You know.
Biggest thing in all of our minds is
Um there's
Hundred and seven hostages, uh that have been held for three hundred and twenty eight days by Hamas.
No.
Yeah.
Need to bring them home now.
Yeah.
Well, let's hop also just come home. Let's hop things end.
Soon.
Uh I'm really impressed with how much you've been able to get done in the middle of all that.
And thanks for making time for this. I know that this isn't the
The most important thing in the world right now.
But I think that this conversation's gonna help a lot of people and you have so much wisdom to share.
Thanks for being tall.
Um
Thank you.
On the course real quick, just to pick make sure people check it out. How did people find it? Just throw that out there as a final step.
It's on Maven.com.
Um in the
Uh product catalog.
And um
I'll have it. I'll probably post links to my LinkedIn as well. You can find it there.
And uh
Yeah, it'll launch in
Mid October.
That'll be the first cohort.
Amazing. And we'll link to it in the show notes.
Tell. Thank you so much for being here.
Thank you.
Bye everyone.
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