Transcript

Exclusive Update: The Chef Who Shocked the Culinary World and Why He’s Changing Course Again—Daniel Humm of Eleven Madison Park

0:07 Hey everyone, welcome to How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. So normally in this slot, we have an episode of the How I Built This Advice line, which will be back next week. But today We've got an update to a story we told a few years back, and we'll put a link to the original interview in the show notes, which is well worth hearing. Anyway, you might remember the interview with Daniel Hun, the legendary chef at Eleven Madison Park in New York City. In that conversation, he announced on this show in 2021 that he would no longer use any animal products at the restaurant. I think we've all been able to take a step back and sort of re evaluate

0:46 And in a way maybe be a little bit more thoughtful. Also about the impact to our surroundings and The way we have sourced our food, the way we're consuming our food. The way we eat meat. It is not sustainable.

1:02 That announcement rocked the world of fine dining. Why? Well, because Eleven Madison Park is one of the most iconic and celebrated restaurants in the world. In 2017, it was actually named the world's greatest restaurant. It's been awarded three Michelin stars every year since 2012.

1:20 And when Daniel made that announcement, many people thought he was crazy. Up until that point, Michelin, which as you probably know, is the most influential force in fine dining. Had never awarded three stars to a purely vegan restaurant. Eleven Madison Park changed that. And became the first ever purely plant based spot.

1:40 to win the coveted three star designation. На топоти. It's estimated that there are 15 million restaurants in the world. But fewer than a hundred and sixty have three Michelin stars. In the US?

1:55 There are just sixteen. An EMP, as the restaurant is known, seemed to be blazing an important trail. Because even though these fine dining restaurants account for just a small fraction of food establishments, they have outsized influence on the industry. Sort of like how you might see a video of a Paris fashion show and wonder, who wears that? Only to see a version of it in HM a year later. EMP was famous for its lavender glazed duck and butter-poached lobster. It served the finest foie gras and caviar.

2:26 But overnight Daniel and his entire culinary team had to essentially relearn how to cook at the highest level, without demigloss and butter, and cream or anything that came from an animal. They visited Japan and discovered all kinds of new ingredients, things like tonburi, which is a seed from a cypress tree found mainly in Japan. that tastes and feels like caviar.

2:50 They had to learn how to make pastries and laminated breads using only plant-based ingredients. But the move didn't come without some controversy. Plenty of people in the industry perceived the move as political. And some longtime patrons felt excluded. Like The restaurant was just for plant-based eaters.

3:09 Some of that pushback was hard for Daniel. He insists he never even imagined people would see the move as anything other than a creative shift. And of course, it did have an impact on the restaurant's bottom line. New York is a very expensive place to run a business, and it turns out working with just plants is also more expensive because it requires more staff and more work to turn the food into something spectacular, which is what EMP managed to do night after. It's still hard to get a table there. But to make the economics work, you need high rollers. Patrons who are also drinking expensive bottles of burgundy and champagne.

3:49 And those patrons, especially in New York. Almost always want some meat. as well. So after a lot of thinking and reimagining, Daniel Hom and his team decided to evolve.

4:01 Once again. Vegetables will still be front and center. 90% of the menu will stay plant based. But a few non-plant based items will come back.

4:12 Daniel wanted to return to the show to explain his thinking. And while going plant based has fundamentally changed everything about his cooking forever. But first, I asked him to go back to the reasons why he went plant based. In the first place.

4:28 After becoming the best restaurant in the world and having had Tree Michelin stars for a decade. We reached The number one spot in the world. And I started to feel a little restless.

4:43 Creatively. I felt like I was sort of going in circles. When we created Our dishes.

4:52 It felt we were repeating a lot. We we did the lobster with leaks and then we did the lobster with Well they're not squash and then we did but it it was sort of like I as a creative it didn't quite feel like ground breaking. What should have been

5:11 DeVay Mountain Top Felt A bit empty. And The hardest part was from that moment on.

5:21 I No longer new What was my North Star? Yeah. And so

5:29 After the pandemic I wanted to build The restaurant. And are cuisine without using any animal products. I I wanna just break this down for a minute. First of all

5:41 Here you you are in your early forties. Having mastered Cooking. The art of cooking, right? And all of a sudden

5:49 I'm assuming you did not know how to make Something that tastes like butter. Without cream. I how to

6:01 How to be a chef. To me that There could a not been anything more exciting also I think there's so much magic In the cooking

6:11 It's almost like alchemy when you can Transform a carrot. Into a luxury. Experience. I think it was really important to have Um

6:24 such boundaries to really Exclusive. Any animal products. To push this creativity the way. We have to find the answer of

6:38 How to laminate the bread. How to make You know, I bother with sunflower oil or how to make And From a tree. Yes.

6:59 Yeah, it's it's from the Cypress plant and Cypress, yeah. And it is um Yeah, it's it's done it I've learned tamburi, which is also referred as land caviar. But it's something that is used in Japan. Mostly in in the San Buddha's cuisine. And so

7:17 Ві дисковерд So much. Things d you didn't even know that existed. That's right. That's right. I'm celebrating my twenty year anniversary at eleven Madison Park. uh beginning of next year. And so

7:33 A quarter of that time. The restaurant has been fully plant based. And our our cooking has Everything about the way M

7:44 Think about food and make food has changed. We will never revert back to Butter glaces, chicken stock. The demiglass. It's fundamentally change because we've had learned.

7:59 In some ways. To make things even better. Like we started our own farm upstate. Which we would have never done if we would have not been so focused. Um The vegetables.

8:13 One of the things that I think is Important to point out is that uh is that I don't believe you were you were trying to send a message to the world saying Don't eat meat, stop eating meat, stop eating animal products, restaurants should stop serving it. That was not in any way what you were saying you were you wanted to use

8:31 The vehicle of the restaurant. as a way to encourage people to think differently about Plants of Fair say I mean you you Condemning.

8:40 the consumption of meat. I mean, in this case, I believe My Naivete. Was an asset.

8:49 You're not eivate to make the decision to go plant based. Yeah, because if if I would have known all the things That I know today. I don't think I would have had the courage. To go down this path. Our decision

9:04 created a global Debate. That far transcended food. And this is something. That we were not.

9:15 Prepared for. For a Lotta people Going to a plant based restaurant. Isn't a choice of cuisine.

9:26 But it's like А лиф'счос. And with this change Some of our guests felt Excluded.

9:36 They had the feeling of Not being Welcome anymore. That it was just for vegans. Yeah, yeah.

9:45 It's not like oh let's have Korean food tonight or let's have Let's go to a steakhouse and let's do plant based tonight. Yeah. And that's what you thought this was gonna be. Oh, it's just gonna be another type of cuisine. Let's get uh French food tonight. Let's go to a Persian no. The thing about

10:04 plant based or or vegan is that most people think of it as a lifestyle. chain shift. That you it's your it's you're either that or you're not. It was almost Like a political view.

10:17 And I never intended. To be part of a political debate. We just wanted to cook.

10:26 Vegetables. Because It's Better for the planet. And we love the creativity that

10:36 That it brings. The restaurant. You know. Got some. outstanding reviews, also had some really harsh reviews. Yeah. That was tough.

10:46 And you and the team. But um Were you surprised at Some of the backlash. Some of the you know, some of the backlash from people who were genuinely angry. at you and at

11:00 This decision. Well in the early Days The experience inside the wall. Of the restaurant.

11:12 Didn't match. Sort of the incoming Criticism. And I think that Чуа

11:20 was confusing. And also We felt so empowered and satisfied by the experience and by the learning. Did we just

11:34 Uh continued. And then Slowly things started to turn. Turn around. I remember sort of early on.

11:45 The cattle rancher from Texas. And uh He sent me this long leather. And it the latter was sort of like he decided for his fortieth birthday. to have dinner at E Low and Madison Park, a fully plant based restaurant, as a cattle rancher.

12:04 And he said his wife was Confused about that decision. Um but then he said as the meal goes on and He's eating all different types of aspergas. Morales and

12:18 The spring onions and He's realizing that he is having One of the best meals. Of his life. If not the best meal of his life.

12:31 And so That conversation really interests me. Because now we're really having a conversation. So I think All this

12:42 was was was very motivating for me. Because um I do believe A restaurant. Has the power.

12:54 To make an impact in the world. And this is definitely something That continues to be On North Star. Yeah.

13:03 And When we We're invited to Dimishna. Ceremony in two thousand Twenty.

13:13 I was Unsure. If you would retain your three stars. What would happen. Were you nervous that night? I was I was very nervous because I Knew how crucial

13:25 It was And how much of a milestone. This would be Of cuisine, there's never been a restaurant.

13:35 That received three missional stars. with a plant based Christine. So Mishnah

13:45 Create it. Fine dining. The rules of fine dining. There's They're the Guardians. Yeah.

13:53 Of of disavical way of Of co of cooking. And uh That night when it was announced that that we are the first restaurant to receive three Michelin stars, it it did feel like

14:07 Or walking on water. Do you d I mean From a business perspective, right? There's a lot of pressure. 'Cause you are just the chef.

14:17 But you're the owner. Yeah. And you manage a team of like two hundred people, I think. It's a huge number of people. who depend on you and the restaurant for their livelihoods. Were there moments Over the last four years where

14:32 I don't know, you felt I don't know, not up to the task. Did you have self doubt? We definitely saw a dip in in in revenue because catering to became a lot smaller.

14:46 And We've learned that Cooking plant based. Is more Also dependent on the seasons.

14:57 In the spring and summer. It's an easier sell. In the fall and the winter. It's harder for people to wrap their head around it. It's selling less wine.

15:10 And wine you need to sell a lot of wine. in order to sustain a restaurant. I mean you're in Manhattan. Yeah. The rent is high. Yeah. Salaries are high. Yeah. It's a big staff. Luxury experience.

15:22 Yeah you do a hundred You serve a hundred people a night, right? Yeah. And and even if you're fully sold out every night. for months and months and months and months, which you have been, it's not enough to sustain when it's when when When you don't sell the wine. And when you don't sell

15:40 Your private. Events which are like events for thirty or forty people. Right. It's very hard to have people buy into an event When you don't have a a signature roast. And does only using plants require

15:57 More labor. higher labor costs. Our labor costs went up by like twenty percent. Like it requires more cooks to bring that magic to the carrots and to the onions. So yeah, it's it's it's it's gotten harder, uh, from a from a business perspective And our guests at times have put us.

16:16 In this parks. Our goal At the end of the day. Is to Welcome people around to table.

16:25 And everyone is welcome. around the table. Purpose. Of a restaurant. If it's what's on the plate or what's not on the plate.

16:36 Keeps. People from coming. Then that would be devastating and we're we would be missing our mark. And When we listen to all

16:49 The feedback. We believe that It is time for Another change. We're gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, Daniel explains for the first time his next big step.

17:04 at eleven Madison Park. Stay with us, I'm Guy Roz. You're listening to a special episode. of how I built this lab. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. So four years after shocking the world of fine dining by turning his three-star Michelin restaurant into a 100% plant-based operation, Daniel Hume says it's time for another important pivot.

17:46 I understand now. That For most dining at a plant based restaurant. is more of a life choice. Then a choice of cuisine.

17:57 I feel incredibly lucky. That I've had the privilege. Сі дис кретив індевер трумост фав єрс. But I've made the decision

18:10 now that it's time for another change. And uh Starting In October We will

18:19 Reintegrate. A few Um animal products. such as fish or s shellfish. And yes, we will bring our duck back.

18:32 Our honey lavender clay stock. We've always listened to the feedback and what we've heard Is that to be the most Hospitable version. Of our restaurant.

18:43 Today. Is to offer a choice. Our use of animal products will be deliberate. With the base of our cuisine staying plant based. And offering

18:56 individual experiences. To some of our guests' preferences. So that we can welcome Everyone around the table. The whole family.

19:08 So so You came to a decision to reintroduce Some Meat sem animal products, right? And

19:19 Was that was it hard for you to to to m to come to that decision or did you feel like You know I tried this thing. Yeah. And it's

19:29 Changed what I do, how I think, how I cook. And this is The next chapter of that. 'Cause Inevitably.

19:39 You know this. who hear about this and find out about this are gonna there are gonna be some people who say, Oh, it failed. This this experiment failed. It was a process. Of course to get to this point.

19:52 Because When we made this decision We dove. All in hark. And we had to

20:00 You have to really firmly believe Of what you're doing and where you're going otherwise. It feels disgenuine. And that was very much Where I was at

20:11 in the pandemic. I wanted to create The first plant based restaurant. Yeah. receives three mission as stars.

20:21 And The voice is Around me. We're like This is not gonna work.

20:31 This will fail. People who were your friends and supporters. Yeah, people had a lot of doubts. We created. a new language, we created a new cuisine. We wrote an entire New book called The Plant Based Chapter. It's

20:47 Fundamentally. Different. But We have Over two hundred people working in a restaurant that serves

20:57 A hundred people. The Martians are Razor thing. And And it requires for us to be

21:08 Um Full. All the time. It's the only way. Uh

21:15 You can maintain level and esteem. And so um Yeah, but it

21:24 Is possible. Um We just gotta continue to also have that hat on. It's it's not just a creative endeavor. It's a business.

21:37 And I think if we want to continue to Um Be part of the conversation. It's Has to be sustainable.

21:48 As a business. Do you think that that like I g I think the analogy would be like If'cause a lot of people ask me, you know, they'll sort of say, Well W why are these sort of Michelin three star restaurants so Lot of people talk about them. Very few people dine at them, you know, every there are mu many more people eat at a red sauce Italian place, right? Yes. But the reason they're they're important is because it's sort of like why is you know the runway show in Paris important? Like we're not all wearing that, but we will wear things that

22:17 Are inspired by that? in a year from now. Like we'll find them in Main Street shops. And it's a s similar with like Fine dining restaurants. They that they sort of set the tone that trickles down to Food.

22:29 I mean inevitably, right. They're gonna be all kinds of reactions. And and that doesn't necessarily m mean anything. But there will be people who say, Well, you know, it doesn't work, it can't work. You can't have that you can't sustain a restaurant at that level. What do you say?

22:46 Well like what's your response to that? For me It took A long time to come to this next step of of evolution and and part of it was

23:01 Because we put So much. This like flag and the In the ground. And people saying it's not gonna work.

23:16 And You don't wanna be like Some of those voices. Maybe they had a point. Part of what they're saying.

23:30 There was some truth to it. You feel that way? I feel that It's such a big change. It's a change in our industry was a change to our suppliers, so I think I think there's a lot of

23:44 fear that comes up with that. I don't know. All the reasons why people said Mm-hmm. But if it was for the reasons

23:56 that it was an inclusive then I think they Definitely had a point. But to me it it very much І це сукс.

24:09 Because Fundamentally different. And now Or incorporating

24:20 If you animal products where we're gonna be very deliberate about What these are And um We studied

24:32 A lot The Mediterranean diet. Mm and uh we traveled with our team to Greece and to Italy. That diet

24:44 Is is mostly plant based. It's a little bit of fish. And a little bit of meat. For special occasions. It's also what Michael Pollan

24:56 Yeah. Mainly plants or little and mostly plants. And and you you mentioned Greece and Italy and and like um Was that trip sort of did that start to

25:11 Turn the gears in your head again about. The next. sort of iteration of of what you want to do and how you want to Present. Food?

25:22 I started to realize that To create Real change. We can't be as dogmatic. And when we looked at

25:37 Ancient cultures. Which None of them. Have a lot of meat. In their diet.

25:49 But it's also Not No meat. Right. Where we're heading

25:58 is informed by Sort of ancient practices. But then also modern techniques and then we're finding sort of A place in the middle.

26:12 So moving forward. When somebody I mean the idea is At the M P somebody is gonna dine there who would not have gone there before because they didn't feel like it was for them. Yeah. And they can have

26:27 Some duck if they want, and there might be some cheese. But you want them to walk out having been exposed to preparation of vegetables that they would not have eaten anywhere else. Like like That they will they're gonna walk out of that experience saying, Wow, this was like Like the best thing I had was the you know, the carrot

26:44 cooked fifteen hours at you know low temperature, whatever whatever it might be. My goal is that everyone can be around the table. And different Dishes. Are gonna resonate.

26:57 With different People? We have created a new language of cooking That is based. In plant based cooking.

27:08 And if you want You will have the choice. For a fish or for a lobster or for a duck. We're not anti meat, but but but we are pro planet. And we believe that

27:22 We need to Reduce The consumption Of meat. in the world.

27:31 And that is a fact. That's not something I came up with. But so if we can Celebrate vegetables and have a little bit of meat. Or a little bit of fish. I think we're in really good shape.

27:45 And that will really move the needle. So probably a lot of the things like the You know, the the the desserts. And the bread will still be Fully flame. There'll be no animal products at all. You you're gonna have cream in your desserts or butter in the croissant and

28:02 You know, I think when We find a product that we're really excited about. That we wanna highlight. This could be a cheese and this could be a butter or it could be a cream. And when the dish

28:16 becomes about that product. Then We will use it. Right. But we will not just mix it into every Single dish.

28:26 Like it used to be. But any great product. has the potential to become a dish of eleven Madison Park if that becomes the main focus. Yeah.

28:39 And will you Will you have to reestablish Some relationships that you lost. You know, it was really Interesting when we made this change

28:51 Um We we did get some We we upset some we some people were upset. Yeah. Some of our suppliers were upset.

29:04 And they felt like somehow We are turning Our back on them. Which of course in a way we did because we stopped ordering certain things. Yeah.

29:17 This was never meant to be Personal Or or this was never meant to be about A supplier or Even

29:28 Some shafts I could feel. They were a little bit more Rubbed the wrong way. Because Maybe they felt

29:42 That maybe there's some changes coming. And maybe they need to start changing certain things. Ever about anyone else. Other than what I wanted to do. as a chef and I was in a creative rod.

29:57 I Wasn't fulfilled. I had the opportunity to create Something entirely different. To learn.

30:05 About new cultures they're never looked at. Traveling India, travelling Japan learning about the San Buddhist cuisine. Um going to the Middle East, all these places

30:18 Um It's changed my life. It's changed me as a chef and I'm extremely grateful. And and the team is grateful. Today I feel like Our cuisine

30:30 Is its own. Before, I think it was always a version of something that already existed. And today I feel like I really found my voice. Today the cuisine is very authentic too. Eleven Madison Park.

30:49 After the break, what Daniel thinks his decision means for himself. and for 11 Madison Park. Stay with us, I'm Guy Roz, and you're listening to a special episode of How I Built This Lab. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Roz. So along with his decision to put a few animal products back onto the menu, Daniel's grappling with what it means to him creatively, as a chef, as a businessman. And as a leader.

31:28 You know, from from an outsider's perspective, right? Especially for a young chef or anybody in food, or anyone really looking at your career and you you know, they see you, right. You'd be perceived as somebody extremely successful and, you know, Michel and three stars and all these accolades and And um And I wonder how you

31:48 See yourself. I'm full of Self doubt. Especially with where we're going next, you know, t in the process after everyone told me this is not gonna work.

32:01 And I sort of came to the conclusion that We wanna continue to evolve. We don't want to be stuck. In this box.

32:11 And sort of At times I felt like Well. I'm a fraud. Mm.

32:18 All these things the The flag that I put in the sand is now people are gonna look at it as like A vikness Are they gonna judge me for being weak, for not standing?

32:33 for my beliefs and Of course I have all these thoughts. in my head. But then I also have to remind myself that In order to evolve We do have to push boundaries.

32:49 And then we learn And then at times we pull back. And then we push in a different direction and then we pull back. I feel like it's kind of human nature. And I think If we want to continue

33:02 Evolving. Eleven Madison Park, if I want to continue to learn As a chef. That's part of

33:11 And You know, I I'm so grateful to the community of the plant based community. Who has Been celebrating.

33:24 our work. Um it's given me a lot And I I do Hope.

33:33 That now That were Pivoting slightly. That now the plant based community doesn't feel like

33:43 Or turning our back because that's not at all. what we're doing. It's really to Go deeper on this to continue. On this. We wanna

33:56 Welcome. Everyone at the table. Part of being running a a a restaurant in the businesses you are you have to your leader, right? You have to

34:07 Exercise like leadership. skills and so this is a change for I mean there are people who are on the team Some of whom came. and joined you because of this, because you went fully plant based.

34:20 So It's gonna be hard for some people. How are you? How are you gonna manage That

34:27 you know, that sort of friction. I think You know, my team is Is everything to me. And a lot of people have been we

34:37 With me for a long time. Um I think the people who've been with me for a long time They've gone through many different changes. With me and

34:50 we all understand that we always gonna continue to evolve and listen and And adapt. Um So in that sense everyone has lived this experience and everyone is sort of like Itching for

35:05 An evolution from here. Um There are people who have joined our restaurant because we are Going down this path. And uh

35:18 But they're also all in the hospitality business. And that's really why they're working in a restaurant. And I think They hear these feedbacks.

35:31 of people say like Oh, I wish my brother. I wish my husband Would understand what this is, but he's not willing to do it.

35:43 And so we're all living this experience, and I think. People will understand. We are not reverting back to the restaurant we were. We're A changed restaurant. Forever on. And uh

35:57 The thing about EMP is Change. Is In its DNA. There is a quote by an artist, William De Koenig.

36:08 That really resonates. With me And he said I have to change to stay the same. Yeah. And this is

36:17 Couldn't be more true. Four eleven Madison Park. the restaurant industry in general is having is sort of I think that the word crisis has been used m that might be a bit much, but I mean there are a lot of challenges, right? There are Um I hear from

36:33 people I know in the industry, you hear it from Chefs who, you know, restaurants are closing. Um for a variety of reasons. Um

36:44 And just to s sustain the the the pace of running a restaurant, especially a fine dining restaurant. Um I'm sure you've been you've sort of seen these conversations happening you know, on the margins or even m even Actually it's on a center stage around the future of fine dining. Like is

37:03 is that model, right? Is that model sustainable? Is it going to be how people eat in ten or fifteen years. You know. To me.

37:14 Chefs are Incredibly important. As you're seeing. Or food. System change.

37:24 Our supply Change. This cannot be in the hands of politics This has to be in co in the hands of chefs and farmers and

37:36 The people actually On the ground. Fine dining will always be Will always exist. because it's it's it's the highest form of

37:49 Of cooking. It's like saying there w won't be Any ballet anymore or any classical music or I I mean this is part of the culture. I think it's important.

38:02 That it continues to exist and that we continue. To celebrate it. Um And and I believe very much

38:12 I think the way it this is always kind of swung In a pendulum where were very Focused on casual dining and then eventually We become more focused on

38:26 Fine dining, and maybe now we're in a place of in the more casual but but it will swing back. It it is important. It's also where A lot of the education happens. Like the amount of people who have come through EMP

38:42 Or Through the French laundry. Or to Single thread or true. Any of these great restaurants.

38:51 It is tremendous and these people Are working in casual restaurants. But they've gotten the training. From these fine dining restaurants. Yeah. So I think it's

39:02 Imperative. At these restaurants. Continued. To exist. So here you are right at this next chapter.

39:10 Mm-hmm. And Now We might talk about this chapter in in five years. Mm-hmm. Where do you see yourself in you know in in ten years from now? Like w where do you see'cause you're You're still young. I mean you're you know, you're not yet fifty. I think it's young'cause I'm fifty. Um but

39:28 I mean you have all of these things that you probably want to do. And you're involved in different projects, I know. Yeah. Where do you see yourself? in ten years from now. And what do you want to be doing. I mean

39:44 Eleven Madison Park is I've been there for twenty years. Um, I could have never imagined that That would become my home for so long.

39:55 But I'm so grateful and I feel that My work With this restaurant. Isn't done yet? Um

40:06 But I think And especially I think this next chapter. is really crucial because I do believe that we are really now landing in a very healthy place. Where it's

40:20 Fundamentally A different restaurant but one that Welcome to everyone. And so That is something

40:31 I wanna see Fully through. And in a weird way. I feel like for the first time ever. The restaurant.

40:40 Feels. Complete? After Twenty years being there? And

40:47 My goal is for this restaurant. This restaurant deserves to be One of the great restaurants. For many more decades. And I don't think

41:00 That's in me. to be able to continue that story um We have incredible team members. Uh who are much younger. Mm.

41:11 Hopefully one day Someone can take My dream is that in thirty years. The restaurant is as important.

41:22 As it is today. Um but that's an exciting sort of uh conversation and and something I'm I'm looking forward to. to solve over the next decade. That's Daniel Hom, chef and owner of Eleven Madison Park in New York City. Just a reminder, we'll put a link to my original conversation with Daniel from twenty twenty one in the show notes. It's a great episode.

41:45 And well worth hearing. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. If you're new to how I built this, check out our archives, almost 700 in-depth interviews with the world's greatest founders, all available to you for free. Just scroll down in your podcast queue. And if you want to support this show, it's really easy to two things for me. Click the follow button on your podcast app. It's free by the way, and you'll never miss a new episode of the show. And the second thing, tell people about the show. We make HIBT to help you think about business, leadership, ideas, and how to start something that has impact. You can also get free advice by signing up for my newsletter at guyros dot com or on substack. This episode was produced by Catherine Seifer with music composed by Ramtina Erablui. It was edited by Andrea Bruce. Our engineers were Robert Rodriguez and Cena Lafredo.

42:38 Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Carla Estevez, Casey Herman, Carrie Thomson, Nora Gill, Ramel Wood, Sam Paulson, Diva Grant, and Elaine Coates. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening. how I built this.