World Cup kickoff: Goals, greed, and geopolitics, with ESPN’s Sam Borden

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1:20 Join us at masters of scale dot com slash apply twenty six. That's mastersofscom slash apply. Twenty six. To mi the World Cup is

1:37 in a lot of ways the great equalizer among the massive disparity that exists in the way that people live day to day around the world. I like imagining a thing. Where for a couple of hours or a couple of weeks or a month Everybody just wants the same thing. Everybody just wants a goal. Everybody w wants a win. Everybody wants to dream another day of like how far they could go. I find some beauty in that and I I like the simplicity it offers.

2:13 That's Sam Borden, global sports correspondent for ESPN and an investigative reporter who helped crack open corruption inside World Cup organizer FIFA. Sam has had an insider's view on the most impactful storylines and inflection points at World Cups from Brazil to Qatar. Today we dig into this year's tournament, which kicks off Thursday from Team USA's prospects to controversy around ticket prices and more. This is part one of our two part dive into the World Cup on Friday's episode. I sit down with US Soccer Federation CEO JT Batson. That conversation will be available exclusively on Rapid Response.

2:55 So for Masters of Scale listeners, be sure to click over and listen. For now, enjoy the passion and bite of ESPN Sam Borden. I'm Bob Sapien, and this is rapid response. Sam, thanks so much for being here.

3:15 Thanks for having me, Bob. I appreciate it. So the World Cup is finally upon us. US hosting alongside Canada and Mexico. It's gonna be hard to match the drama of the last World Cup with Messi leading Argentina to victory. Are you rooting for Argentina to repeat or are you all USA all the time? Y you know, Bob, I would say that the uh the big secret of my life that I'll share with you if you promise not to tell anybody else. Despite being a sports journalist for over 2 years, I am actually not that big a sports fan. You know, I love um The drama and the stories and the um emotion that goes with

3:59 big time sporting events and, you know, courage and overcoming adversity. But I have to say that I am not um particularly invested one way or the other in what team wins or loses. I do have a little bit of a soft spot for France because we lived in France for a few years and my girls um, you know, kind of got into the French national team. But generally speaking, I root for games to end on time and me to get home, uh me to get home as quickly as I can. Yeah. Well, you've covered global soccer as a game and as a business across forty some countries. So I wanna ask you about some of the societal and

4:40 cultural impacts that that swirl around This year's games. Yeah. First though, have you seen Nike's new uh Rip the Script video for the World Cup, the star studied video. Have you seen it yet? No, I don't think I've seen that one. But it is really interesting to see how invested the business world gets in soccer every four years, particularly in this country, where for the intervening four years, it's a little bit like the Olympics, you know, it's like for a month every four years, it's the biggest thing in the world. You see all of these activations and, you know, corporate opportunities around this sport that

5:18 For the other three years and eleven months oftentimes struggles to make the same kind of an impact. Yeah, I mean the business of the World Cup is for real, right? For for sponsors, for sports brands, for media companies, for athletes too. I mean, there's a lot of money at stake. Yeah, no question. It it's funny, in meetings we've had at ESPN, we've talked a lot about what we're calling four year fans. And I include like my wife and many of my friends in this category of like

5:46 They're gonna be locked in when the US is playing on uh Friday in uh Los Angeles against Paraguay. they're gonna be locked in on that game like there's nothing else happening in the world. But if you were to ask them literally a month from now, hey, what about the US soccer team? The recall and the ability to to to speak intelligently about that team would not exist at all. And if the US team like doesn't perform that Well Will the World Cup then have to fight for attention in the US?

6:18 I mean'cause it's not a sport that's traditionally embraced here, the way the way basketball and baseball and other sports have been. For sure. And I think you've seen over really like the last twenty years, you know, the last generation or so, you have seen a very steady rise in terms of interest, TV ratings. But there's also no question that particularly for this world cup where it's taking place in North America, how the US does will drive to what level of history it makes in terms of ratings and interest. If the US can get beyond sort of the typical they've done, which would be like a round of 16 appearance. If they can make a quarter final in a home world cup,

7:02 I think you're gonna see some astronomical viewing numbers and engagement numbers. If they go out on the group stage, it's gonna be a big bummer for the entire tournament, there's no question. This year's World Cup has this sort of novel three country hosting plan across the US, Canada, and Mexico. The relationships between these countries right now. Are a little tense in terms of tariffs and trade and immigration. W will that show up and how the tournament is run? I mean, it's a complicated event.

7:33 You know. Whatever, a hundred and four Super Bowls in thirty nine days, someone calls it? You know Obviously Obviously there is this

7:43 unusual and as you said, you know, um ever changing dynamic in terms of like pull politics and trade that exists between these North American countries. They're also massive rivals in soccer. You know what I mean? The US's biggest rival is Mexico in soccer. And their rivalry with Canada over the last ten years or so has grown exponentially. Canada is a much bigger player. on the world stage now than they ever were a generation ago. I mean, they have as much of a chance to make a deep run as the US or Mexico in this tournament. So There is that competitiveness within like the sporting component, but then when you add in what is happening in the world, there is no question that

8:28 it will make things a little bit more difficult. I think the one thing that people often don't necessarily understand about the way that the World Cup is operated is that I think it was Eight years ago, FIFO, which is the organization that runs kind of the World Cup and global soccer, They switched away from the previous model where world cups were operated by local organizing committees. So you know, in nineteen ninety-four, when the World Cup was in America the last time, there was a US based company.

9:01 that was created the local organizing committee and their job was to put on the World Cup. Like they made all of the decisions about ticketing, stadiums, um, scheduling FIFA basically was just sort of like Here's the teams that have qualified. Here is you know some money that we set aside to run the World Cup. You guys put on the World Cup. And about eight years ago FIFA switched away from that model, and now FIFA runs the world cup. They created a uh subsidiary in America.

9:33 And so to your question about how will the relationship between the US, Mexico, and Canada affect the running of the tournament, I think the short answer is that A generation ago, if this happened, it would have been a massive impact. All of those questions about trade and commerce would have really played a lot bigger part than what we're gonna see in this particular iteration because FIFA is running the tournament. FIFA's making the decisions and we've I'm sure we'll talk about it. When it comes to ticketing, which has been a huge Huge controversy.

10:04 All of that is being run through FIFA. That's not run through any company that's based in the US, Mexico, and Canada. So the the the price of the tickets Or like the naming rights. I mean, I've seen some of the stadiums be sort of have their names taken. All those decisions are made by FIFA. That's correct. FIFA, despite being a nonprofit, is very good, and their president Gianni Infantino is very, very good. About Finding revenue opportunities, stretching a dollar, um soaking or sucking

10:37 as much m financial reward out of any circumstance as possible. And so like to your point, the ticketing platform is run by FIFA. And not only are the face value prices, which are astronomical to begin with for these tickets. Not only are those set by FIFA, But they have also created their own resale platform where they take a fifteen percent commission on every purchase. and every um sale, like they're taking a commission off both sides of these resales in addition to the commission they take off and the revenue they take off from the Ticket being sold the first time.

11:13 And they're monetizing all of that. Your investigative reporting of FIFA has been uh memorable. You were on site in Zurich in twenty fifteen during the infamous raid and arrests of FIFA officials at Swiss Hotel. For for listeners who are less familiar, can you quickly recap like what you uncovered, what the situation was then and Whether FIFA has changed much since then.

11:39 Sure. It's actually funny. Here I'll I'll show you a little we'll do a little prop because I keep on my desk This is a pen. from the Borlock Hotel in Switzerland in uh Zurich, which is where those arrests happened, uh in two thousand fifteen. And essentially what happened was A bunch of the highest level executives in FIFA were arrested and caught up in a DOJ, Department of Justice investigation around corruption, bribe taking, um vote trading, racketeering, all types of

12:13 Financial crimes. that were rooted essentially in power and influence in global soccer. Uh the reason that the world cup was in Qatar in two thousand twenty two, and the reason, for example, that Fox is broadcasting the two thousand twenty six World Cup at a fairly bargained price. is because

12:35 the awarding of the 2018 and 22 world cups to Russia and Qatar, those votes were largely bought. Since then. I would say that FIFA's structure has changed considerably. A number of the um allegedly corrupt politicians either went to jail or faced

12:55 serio ethics violations and penalties within kind of global sport. So there are a number of new people that are involved, but there's also no question that FIFA and the way that it operates is still among the most uh murky global organizations you would ever want to know about. And I think we're seeing some of the ramifications of that. They do largely operate with impunity. They own the World Cup. And they wanna set their ticket prices at whatever they wanna set them for, they can. They wanna make um

13:27 hard rock stadium in Miami be known as Miami Stadium? They can. It is a fascinating paradox, right? That FIFA's been Sort of Arguably one of the most despised organizations in global sport. And yet its signature event is the most watched on the planet. This FIFA's reputation

13:45 matter or it it it doesn't seem to. No, it doesn't. As much as I'm proud of the reporting that I and my colleagues at the New York Times did in two thousand fifteen. And for sure it led to um some material change certainly for the people who were involved.

14:02 I'm not sure that it makes a huge difference in the overarching sentiment around soccer. It's by far the most popular sport in the world. The men's world cup is by far the most popular Tournament or event. in the world when it comes to sports. And I think that it's gonna take a lot. for that to ever change and certainly some

14:23 Rich guys getting richer. For most sports fans, I'm not sure that's gonna resonate, you know? The World Cup's magic. isn't just the soccer, it's the it's the Vubuzellas, it's it's the sort of raucous fan energy Yeah the high ticket prices this year. The cheapest ticket for the I think the group stage I saw in LA was like four hundred dollars plus the US game. I mean, it starts at twelve hundred and I know they're selling for for way more than that now.

14:52 It's a total shame because one of the things that is amazing about the World Cup. Every world cup that I've been to, um, whether in Brazil, Russia, Qatar, or here The fans are what make it what it is. The fans are what make it special. Not just the atmosphere in the stadium, but just The cultural mixing, you know, walking around the Souk in Doha and seeing Moroccans going, you know, crazy in one direction and, you know, um Argentines coming in the other direction, and you've got uh Colombian. I mean, like it's just

15:23 It's such a wonderful Sort of moment of connection that people all over the world can have with each other over this shared event. And To your point, I think one of the grand shames of A world cup that is spread quite as widely as this one is from, you know, Canada to Mexico and all over the United States.

15:45 Is that you're not gonna have those moments. There's not gonna be that same kind of crisscross that core that central hub isn't the same. Yeah. If you've never been to a World Cup match, I I I'm not trying to tell anybody how to spend their money, but like It is a really amazing thing. It is different than going to a Super Bowl. And so when I see stories and or why hear from fan supporter groups who are saying I mean, even the American outlaws who have been So devoted to supporting the US teams.

16:15 You know, they're not sure how many people they're gonna be able to get into the building. how many tickets they're gonna be able to get from FIFA, from US soccer, if they can afford it, if their members can afford it. Like it's just a bummer. And that's US fans in their home country. You know it's gonna be even more difficult for a fan coming from um Uzbekistan Who has been waiting his entire life to see his team in the World Cup. and now may or may not be able to afford to even see that happen. It to me, to be honest. It's the thing that bums me out the most about all of the stories that we've seen in the run up to this event because it really is, it kind of cuts to the heart of what makes the World Cup special.

16:54 Hm. There are some stories that that soccer fans are said to be fearful of traveling to the US because of immigration actions and travel visa restrictions. Uh how real is that? I I think it's real. I was fortunate to live in Europe for many years, you know, working for the Times

17:14 And so I have a lot of friends, you know, who still live in Europe, um or around the world and who Talk to me about, okay, well, what is the experience like about coming to America? Let me tell you about what it was like to have my phone searched when I arrived in America as they're looking at my social media history. What is it like to be here when there's an ice raid in the city where I'm staying? How does that feel to be around that? And so I do think that it Has a material impact. There was some tumult earlier this year about immigration agents

17:47 Potentially working at matches, which has kind of fallen out of the headlines. Has that plan shifted or we're we're just not hearing about it? It sounds like there certainly will be an ice presence around World Cup cities and venues. The government has said that there won't be active targeting, there won't be active um activity. I like many journalists or people, um You know, you sort of take all of that with a grain of salt. Like I I uh there's a little bit of a like

18:17 I'll believe it when I see it, you know? Um and so Will there be um ICE activity? Will there be protests? Will there be um standoffs between law enforcement and fans? Like My gut tells me yes. And for what it's worth, Bob, I mean, I covered the world cup in two thousand fourteen in Brazil and there was incredible civil unrest amongst protesters in Brazil at that time. And I was in Sao Paulo when there were Anti-government protests and police were firing rubber bullets.

18:47 You know, on the day of matches like It happens everywhere. This is not a America only problem. I think what makes it a little bit different in this circumstance is that A America is the most visible country in the world and the you know sort of media presence here is greater than anywhere else. And then B America is I think a little bit like more on the fulcrum of

19:14 what instability, you know, the sort of Western world feels generally speaking. And so it's different when you see, you know another protest in Brazil versus when you see it happening, say, in downtown Los Angeles. Hm. Does FIFA have Um particular rules for

19:33 For teams for you know, players about what they can and can't do, you know. On the field to make a statement. They have very strict rules and the protocols around uniforms. I mean, even something small like this, uh, Bob, I'll tell you about it. It was a controversy in Qatar at the last World Cup. One of the issues that got a lot of attention in Qatar was the intolerance towards the LGBTQ community that existed in Qatar in many countries in the Middle East. And so a number of teams, I remember it started, I think, with the captain of the England team, Harry Keane.

20:09 wanted to wear uh instead of the typical armband that a captain would wear that says like captain on it. He wanted to wear a rainbow. armband in support of the LGBTQ community. while the World Cup was being played in Qatar. And that was a huge controversy. FIFA said, Look, we

20:28 Are very um Are very focused on having no political statements. anywhere around our field of play. And there were rules. Handed down.

20:40 About If you wear a rainbow armband in violation of our rule you will receive a yellow card during the game, which is a big deal, you know? Um and so ultimately some kind of compromise was worked out and there were some very generic language put on the captain's armbands that were not rainbow, but said like you know, um

21:02 Peace for all or whatever whatever the generic hablum you could imagine. Is what it was. But To your point. They're very strict about political statements on the field. If somebody were to lift up a a jerse and there was a t shirt underneath that said free Palestine, for example, there would be serious ramifications for sure.

21:22 In Qatar the political culture is less uh Less open to dissent than than here in the US. But it sounds like there are similar Maybe not identical, but similar concerns and restrictions. I mean, it's a month long tournament with forty eight teams. There's a lot of press opportunities, right? I mean, before every single match

21:43 There's a press conference with generally the star or captain of the team and the coach from that team. And As much as FIFA might like to control the press conferences There are going to be questions asked where Players from international teams

21:58 Are going to be offered the opportunity to speak about the United States? And In the same way that players on the US team were asked about Qatar's lack of tolerance or um attitudes towards women. And I know that they were because I was in those press conferences and heard those questions asked. I would imagine that there's going to be no shortage of opportunities for foreign players.

22:20 To take shots at America. Our president. our government, our policies, our immigration approach, whatever. And so I'll be really curious to see how FIFA responds to that and just sort of how the

22:33 News media in America treats What I would imagine will be a fairly steady stream of criticisms of what's going on in this country at this time. With so much global scrutiny on the US politically right now, this World Cup comes at a tricky time. Is it the best time to hold a World Cup or the worst? And what does it mean to host a World Cup while at war with one of the competing nations? We'll talk about that and more after the break. Stay with us.

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24:26 I hope to see you there. Before the break, ESPN Sam Borden talked about World Cup ticket prices, FIFA's murky financial role, and the stakes for Team USA. Now he talks about Iran's participation in the World Cup and the cost-benefit trade-off of being a host country, plus his impassioned case for why the tournament means more than what happens on the pitch. Let's dive back in. I wanted to ask you about Iran's world cup team, you know, coming to the US in the midst of of armed conflict.

25:01 I know FIFA declined to restrict the team from competing. What sort of reception might they get at their matches if they come, or there any like I don't know, Trump wildcard concerns that people are talking about. I mean from a

25:16 sporting perspective, this is like a once in a lifetime opportunity for many of the players in the team. Like I would understand why they want to compete in the world cup. And By the way. just for showing up and qualifying for the tournament The Iran Football Federation receives somewhere around thirteen million dollars US Which is no small thing for a country that, you know, is at as you say, actively at war.

25:39 There have been visa issues. We've seen a number of countries. I think the Democratic Republic of the Congo is one that also had some issues. Obviously FIFA has worked with the US government and has gotten assurances that ultimately the people that need to be here for the World Cup will be allowed in, but As we all know, government red tape is you know, uh a reality of the world and I think the world cup competitors are experiencing that One of the things that I think is interesting is that Iran chose to move their training camp from Tucson, which was where it was originally scheduled to be. to Mexico because they want to be spending as little time as possible in America. So they're gonna be training in Mexico and flying in the day before the game to Los Angeles or Seattle where they're playing their group stage games and then going right back to Mexico.

26:27 To your question about the reception. I'm actually very curious to see When Iran was drawn into the group that they were drawn into and their games were assigned um where they were gonna be playing a couple of games in Los Angeles, obviously there's a massive Iranian um Diaspora in Los Angeles. I think the expectation is that it's gonna be a pretty cold reception for the Iranian national team. A lot of um Iranian Americans who live here see the football team as

26:59 A symbol of the regime. whether that's fair or not, and are looking forward to the opportunity. Taboo them. You mentioned Uh previous

27:08 World Cup. Hosts. Brazil, South Africa, Russia, Qadar. The all of them sort of they stake their national prestige and resources on this event. There's been a lot of discussion about this with

27:21 Olympic hosting. Is World Cup hosting Like, is it worth it? Does that pay off? There are real bonuses for um

27:32 hosts who take an Olympics or a World Cup. in terms of raising the public profile, the global profile of the country, whether it's tourism or just general awareness, travel opportunities, um international diplomacy. Like that's not something that America generally struggles with. I think that

27:52 From a corporate standpoint, there's no question that, you know, companies like Budweiser, Nike, um, Visa, some of these companies that have been on board with US Soccer and FIFA, it's a huge opportunity monetarily, brand uh activation opportunity wise. Um Corporate hospitality. Uh for sure it's on a different level here than elsewhere. But what I think is really interesting is that This tournament, unlike Qatar or Russia or certainly Brazil and definitely South Africa.

28:26 This Tournament required almost no infrastructure change. All of these stadiums Our NFL stadiums are all built to host these kinds of events. You know, the stadiums in Qatar Several of them were literally built and then torn down. One of them was literally made out of

28:44 shipping containers that were then I mean I don't think it's happened yet, but the the premise was It was gonna be taken apart and then, you know, repurposed as shipping containers. They did a big story for the New York Times before the twenty fourteen World Cup about literally how do you build a stadium in the Amazon. There was a a stadium that was being built in Manaus, which is sort of the capital of the Amazonian region, and hosted, I think, like five World Cup games, and they had to on boats, you know, bring in rebar and concrete and build this 40,000 seed stadium. Once the world cup was over, there is no professional team in the Amazon

29:20 that would ever play a game that would draw forty thousand spectators. And so What happened to that stadium? It I think it became a bus depot. And then at some point it became a prison, like a private prison. At least in America, we are not gonna have any of those sort of Massive expenditures that are unnecessary in real life. So

29:41 No upside necessarily the same as uh these other countries in terms of visibility and, you know, making your profile bigger, but also no downside in terms of like, man, we had to spend all this money on these things that have no use once the month uh long tournament is over. For the the reputation of the United States. I mean it's a tricky time to be having people

30:06 Focus on us. You mentioned all all the interview questions that might happen. Is that something that could You know, looking back like oh, maybe that wouldn't wasn't such a good t idea to have hosted. I think that's definitely possible, Bob, but It's also one of those things that like sometimes fate decides. I mean

30:26 This world cup was awarded in two thousand eighteen. I was in it was right before the Russia World Cup began, the vote happened. And at the time, I think the thinking was well, geez, that's so far from now, you know, ten years or eight years down the line, the country's gonna be in a much better place than it might have been in two thousand eighteen. This probably isn't what organizers imagined would be the global profile of America right in this moment in time. But also how could you have possibly predicted, you know, where we would be r right as this kickoff is about to happen. I mean, even Six months ago, a year ago.

31:05 Would anybody have predicted we'd be in the middle of a war with Iran? Like I'm not sure, you know, that's something that was on anybody's radar uh, you know, at that moment. Can you explain Why you feel like the world cup matters? Beyond the outcome of the game. To me, the World Cup is

31:23 In a lot of ways the great equalizer among the massive disparity that exists in the way that people live day to day around the world for a month. Everybody wants the same thing. Everybody just wants a goal. Everybody w wants a win. Everybody wants to dream another day of like how far they could go. I mean, there are some countries competing Where the living situations are Horrific, you know? Uh the the most fans

31:48 You know, in Haiti are dealing with real life issues that far surpass anything that you or I are dealing with. But

31:58 When Haiti plays, they just want the same thing that Every other fan once. And like There's something simple about that that just really appeals to me, you know? Obviously it doesn't paper over the real problems that exist in the world, but I like imagining a thing where for a couple of hours or a couple of weeks Or a month.

32:19 Everybody just wants the same thing. I don't know, maybe that's overly simplistic or cheesy. I find some beauty in that and I I like the simplicity it offers. So do you have any tips for folks who uh who are hoping to try to get tickets to uh to the finals in in New York? I mean, you know, uh sell your car? I I don't know. I mean, uh I think getting in is gonna be very difficult. And it sounds like the cost even just to get to the game, you know, uh to take a train, you know, from the city out to the stadium is like a hundred dollars for a trip that usually costs like twelve dollars. Uh so the price gouging has even hit, you know, mass transport. Um, but

33:00 The beauty, I think, of modern sports is that watching it on TV, uh in HD with your friends and your family or in a bar, like is a pretty great experience too. If you've never watched a game, go to a sports sports bar, find a friend or you know, group of friends who are watching it like I have a feeling you your opinion of soccer will change. Sam, this was great. Thanks so much for doing it. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

33:23 Sam's feelings around the beauty of the World Cup resonate with me. It's an event that reminds that no matter what team you root for, the colors you wear, the flag you wave, We are all people. There's something about sport that allows us to see that. Even when so many other factors highlight our differences. Now, whether I'd sell my car to get a ticket to the final, I don't know about that.

33:49 But I will be rooting for the tournament to be a unifying force. As for the on the field action, I am a sports fan, unlike Sam, so for my colleagues here on the show, go England, go Haiti, go Argentina. And of course, Go Team USA. Quick reminder to join us Friday to hear from the US Soccer Federation CEO. I'm Bob Safian. Thanks for listening.

34:14 Rapid response is a wait what original. I'm Bob Safian, our executive producer is Eve Tro. Our senior producer is Alex Morris and our associate producer is Masha Makutonina. Mixing and Mastering by Aaron Bastanelli and Brian Pugh. Our theme music is by Ryan Holiday.

34:43 Our head of podcasts is Lital Malad. For more, visit rapidresponse show.com.

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