How Mercado Libre built Latin America's most valuable company: 18k engineers, 30k deploys a day, and their own fleet of planes | Sebastian Barrios

Transcript from https://podmenti.com/t/f06d73cd0c71ec23

Steve Jobs called you. One day I'm walking in the street and and I get a phone and a blocked number. I was super young, by the way, at the time. I think I was like sixteen. Pick up. I said, Well, uh hi Sebastian. This is Steve from Apple. I need to talk to you about your app. We're not gonna be able to have it on the app store. I actually pushed back
A little bit. I told my I I read all the rules of the app store. He'll be check again because we just added a new rule. At nineteen you built an app that became the number one app in nineteen countries. It absolutely exploded. I actually got contacted by a lot of different companies, like multinationals, governments, things like well.
You have the number one app. We want you to build an app for us. You oversee something like eighteen thousand developers. We do around thirty thousand deployments per day. We deliver over five million packages per day. You're really big on not creating a big distinction between engineering and product.
it's hard to separate where engineering stops and product begins and we don't feel like just having a title should determine who was the owner. Is there anything else might be helpful for folks, either about how you
operate as a human
Morning routine. We were raised in a very intensely independent way. My mother mainly the analogy that she used is that she wanted to train us like spice. She would drop us in the middle of the city, Mexico City.

Today, my guest is Sebastian Barrios. Sebas, as most people know him, is currently senior vice president of engineering at Roblox.
He was also a longtime head of product and engineering at Mercado Libre. Mercado Libre might be the biggest and most interesting company that you have never heard of.
And Sebus might also be the most interesting product leader that you've never heard of.
Mercado Libre is currently the most valuable company in Latin America, valued at over 100 billion dollars, which also makes them one of the 150 most valuable companies on the planet.
They also have one of the largest engineering teams on the planet, with over eighteen thousand engineers operating in eighteen countries.
They deploy an unprecedented thirty thousand times a day. The company owns their own trucks and planes. They deliver over five million packages a day.
At one point eBay tried to acquire them, they ended up acquiring PayPal instead. Now they are larger than both eBay and PayPal combined.
Also, just wait till you hear those about Sebas's early life.
Інклють газмам трейдем лайка спа.
Why he only drinks water, no coffee or tea or juice. Why he doesn't listen to music.
And also why Steve Jobs personally called him when he was 17 years old, telling him that they are booting his app from the app store and forever changing the app store policies as a result.
A huge thank you to Christopher Lazarus, Oscar Mullen, and Farhan Fower for suggesting topics for this conversation.
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With that
I bring you Sebastian Barrios.
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Sebas, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.
Well, super happy to be here.
Thank you for hosting me.
This is the first time that you're doing a uh a major let's call it major podcast. I think you can call it major podcast. You can be proud.
What you've done?
I appreciate that.
Um
So let me just start with a stat that I think is gonna blow a lot of people's minds.
You oversee
Something like eighteen thousand
Developers.
Is that right? Is that the right number? That is the right number. Uh eighteen thousand and climbing. Uh
I just put it.
specify that that they don't report all directly to me. We can talk about how the company's structure, but yes, I'd lead the
The technology team that basically powers all of what they do.
I think essentially you guys are in the top ten of most
of most engineers at a company. You're like
above Salesforce and TikTok.
Nvidia, Adobe, Uber, OpenAI.
That's right. I think you have to go into like big tech or huge banks, uh to to get a a larger number.
Okay. So
A lot of people listening to this have not heard of Mercado Libre. A lot of listeners are in the US, other parts of the country outside of Latin America.
Give us just like a brief explanation of what does Mercado Libre do.
And then give us a few more stats that
Will blow people's minds to the scale of this business at this point. Happy to. Happy to. So you can think of us as uh
Completely vertically integrated.
e commerce marketplace. Oh, that that that means uh buying and selling any product you can think of.
And the vertically integrated part means we have our own distribution network, we have our own airplanes, we have our own uh trucks. Uh
We have to do all the technology and coordination uh behind that.
But
Even or in addition to to that, we also have a a f a very large fintech operation. The the two sides of the business are actually almost the same size.
So we also offer accounts, we offer credit cards, we offer loans, uh all of that sort of like
integrated with each other.
into uh what we call an an an ecosystem. Okay, and then I saw a stat that you guys plan to have
over one hundred thousand employees by the end of this year. That's right. There's a lot of uh operations that need to happen uh for for for all those packages to
To be delivered. You asked about some uh fun statistics, uh specifically with with deliveries, we deliver over five million packages per day or items. So we visit most of Latin America. We have some very cool visualizations where if you track the
routes of our our our our trucks and and and delivery vans and and whatnot. You sort of like paint a picture of Latin America, which is pretty fun. Uh we obviously operate in in major cities, but we
have very, very uh large capillarity on and reach all the different corners of of Latin America.
Okay. A couple more stats that you didn't mention. Uh
You guys are valued over a hundred billion dollars. It's a large company. But yes, uh a hundred billion, even more so now. Depends on on on how the market's feeling and then
uh what the what the global news are.
But yes, uh one of the
top valued companies on the on the planet.
Uh we have around a hundred million uh users, customers, sellers.
People interacting and the
the platform and as you mentioned, uh one of the larger engineering and product building teams on the planet.
Hopefully people now get the sense of like, Holy shit, this is
Uh there's a lot to learn here.
There's kinda two buckets to the way I want to approach this conversation. One is just really unique, interesting ways you all operate and how you
scale a business like this, how you build product.
The other's just uh you as a human are really interesting.
And there's a lot of stories I've heard that I wanna talk about, but I'm gonna save that version for
For next.
Let's start with
how you all operate. So one of the so I talked to a lot of people that work with you, that work at Mercado Libre.
One of the themes that came up again and again is you've you're really big on not creating a big distinction between engineering and product.
It's essentially one team for you guys.
Talk just how that works specifically, just like what does that mean?
And why that's so important to you. For me and for uh Americano Libre.
It's hard to separate where sort of like
Engineering stops and product begins. We do have
There are people in
Medical that have the the the product manager title, but the the ratio is much smaller than uh
Any other
tech company that that that you would think of.
And the way we we think about it is like that. We we we're not gonna determine who's gonna own the product just based on the title. It's gonna be based on
Who's the best for that role. No, and then uh turns out that for us and in the majority of the cases
It's the engineering leaders, it's the the tech leads, it's the the the people that can understand
Well,
Okay, what what are the business needs, what are the user needs, what are the users doing, how am I gonna measure that? No, and and combine that into uh
A single roll.
So to make this even real m even clearer.
You have eighteen thousand ish
Developers, how many people have the PM title?
So I think it's less than one thousand.
only the thing that would make uh like five percent. Uh where in other companies maybe you have ten, twenty, thirty percent, even more uh other
Companies.
So two follows here. One is just why why do you think operating this way is
more effective in in the way in your business.
And what
Do you need to hire engineers in a different way?
For them to succeed.
In this way where they're basically playing the PM role. This works because you want to be as close to the problem as possible, and that probably works.
being as close to the technology.
As possible.
Being as close to the users as possible.
You can have it with two different people that have to interact and and coordinate, and that obviously works as well, right? Like I I'm not saying this is the the only way to do it.
Clearly there are a lot more examples. Maybe we are actually the the the exception and and it would be hard to
replicate anywhere else, but if you're able to have that whole context in a single mind in a single person that can then deliver that vision to the team.
I think it leads to great products that users are gonna love and and and enjoy.
In terms of hiring.
We do
And and the interview process sort of like
Test for
product skills, but we mainly do tests for for engineering skills. Uh I think it's worth
being honest about like we we we have a strong bias for uh engineering, for for for being technical.
For being deep into the the details, there's n not a lot of tolerance for
being in a meeting and getting asked a question, like Well I need to check
with this person to understand the details'cause you know, I'm not sure what technology we're using. Like that that would not fly. No uh so the there is a bias towards the the tech side of it.
And then once we once you're inside Mercalibre, you we'll probably get to know you a lot more and then it'll be very clear if you have the
Product inclination, or if you should.
Uh if you would be more comfortable we'll just
with the engineering.
What's really interesting about this is a lot of companies start with no
PMs and they're like, We never need PMs. We're we're just gonna be engineers, leading product, gonna be amazing.
And then usually eventually.
People these engineers realize I don't want to be doing all this bullshit PM work. Like I just want to code. I want to build. What am I in meetings all day writing?
Specs.
And it's interesting you guys have scaled to a a hundred billion dollar market cap, eighteen thousand.
People on the product team developers.
And still you're working this way?
It's really rare.
What do you think has allowed you to operate this way at this scale?
That maybe other companies can't. Yeah. I think it it it's also a top down uh thing where uh a lot of the leadership
Mm.
very technical. They're they're uh very into the the product. They're also very into the business, into the numbers, into the the the details. Uh it's it's amazing to be on the
C level meetings and then the kind of questions, uh the kind of uh level of uh of attention.
I know founder mode is now uh like a a term that's that's there, but
The company has been operating like that for for a while. Now where uh discussions will
Even go as deep as
Okay, we're using that copy.
That's way too many words. Uh it's not clear, hey, what was why is this pixel here where uh we could use that space for something a lot more useful. And and these are literary conversations at the at the C level. Oh the
Asking okay, w
How does this work for users? Oh, when when you present a feature and here I'm gonna stereotype
other companies know it might not be the case, but my my understanding is anytime's okay, how much revenue can we get from this new feature or or what's the metric that that that's gonna move for Marcos our our a CO the first question is
Always okay, how's the user gonna experience this?
Show me the flow, show me the user experience, are they understanding it? Show me the metrics that people are actually liking what we're what we're doing.
Putting the users before the the the revenue.
obviously turns into revenue in the future, or in the in the long term, which is what you're
Looking for
So again, I I think w uh the the the top down version of that
uh maintaining the the culture and being able to like select for the top of the top talent uh in in a whole region, no, and in in multiple countries.
I think it's what's allowed that to to happen.
And the the the the business you said, like there's a lot of technology, right? Like you you need to do the routing for all the the buses, the the the trucks, the planes, the distribution centers, you need to do routing for picking items within the the the distribution centers.
risk, uh content moderation, search, uh robotics, no there's uh uh
really long list of of of really fun initiatives uh that we're working on. Uh they're all very technical and turn into
value for our users.
I can't help but ask how does AI impact this way of working where engineers are doing more and more of the PM work?
Uh, is that just accelerating that further? Is there anything you can share but just how I AI is
Changing the way you'll operate. It's a great question'cause you probably always hear it from from the other side, no, like okay, now
People who are more product oriented are not gonna need engineers as much.
So for for for us the the the change is accelerating, what people can do on both sides, uh but I don't think there's any
competition and and again we we we won't we don't see a line between product and and engineering as strongly as
as other companies. So I'm extremely happy when uh uh someone who's more product oriented
comes in and can actually start developing more stuff on their own, even just demos, no? I think for for we we can talk about the AI hype uh a little bit in the in the future, but it's definitely great to to to make demos to
actually turn ideas into something that you can touch, the something that that that you can see designs, no and and and seeing uh
A lot more people enabled to to do that, I think it's just
accelerating everything we do. On on the actual coding side, of course.
It started as like advanced autocomplete, and now you have
Agentic frameworks and cursor and windsurf.
Open AI just made a an acquisition. Clearly it's sort of like a uh a big shift in in in the way we we develop technology. It's not at the point where it can sort of like do anything and everything and and security, compliance, all the different things that that that go around actually turning uh a demo or a product
into something that that that's gonna reach the production or or or the market uh takes time.
But I would say we're we're we're taking it even further.
We always like to think in in in terms of platforms. Uh it's one of the reasons why we've been able to scale the team so much. We have a great internal development platform that takes care of a lot of scaling, security, building, testing.
compliance, uh so t so developers and and and teams can just focus on
Adding value.
And we're taking the same approach with AI.
We uh developed uh an internal platform called Verdi.
uh that basically abstracts away a lot of the complexities around okay, where are we gonna get the data, how's it gonna be authorized? Uh and and that and Intel has been evolving as the models become more more capable. Now you can have more
call them call agents, agentic frameworks, uh
Things taking action, taking over.
longer tasks, uh, and uh we we're seeing great results.
With skipping code entirely. Oh, I think it's it's a it's a fun one where
The the prompter or the
what you actually want a product to do is everything you you tell a system.
we came up with ways to use our existing code. No, so it's not like there's no code in in any of of what I'm talking about, but we basically can extract the functionality of every single one of our microservices.
And then we can have agents.
build and uh use different parts of of of different services and create new features.
Four users end to end.
With a UI. So that's the that's something that it's still
Experimental, obviously.
Uh but it's happening and then it's just gonna accelerate as the the
The models get better.
So we literally have things that are taking existing code. So
You you it's not like code doesn't exist, but you don't have to write any new code. There's a lot of functionality that we already have on the platform and you can combine different parts of it.
Of it.
and uh turn it into a a new feature or product.
Without any intervention from from any
Code. Extra code. That is very cool. So essentially you have all these APIs and microservices.
And your agents can just use what already exists to add new features.
Exactly.
And and it it if you extend it a little more, y y you could even
Reach a point where
Like
UIs and and and and apps are sort of like entirely generated. No words are like okay, these are like all the things that you can do inside Mercado Libre, you can buy stuff, you can get a credit card, you can move money around, uh and then have like a
completely personalized UI for for user predicting what are you gonna do next and then just having that as the main screen. Maybe you have like other screens, obviously, that that that allow you to do everything, but
It's uh uh an exciting future. I think we're we're gonna see a lot more uh automated uh UI.
Wow. Okay. I'm gonna try to resist just making every conversation about AI.
So let's leave that aside and maybe we'll come back to it.
But let's zoom out a little bit and
I wanna hear other key or very unique ways of working that you have figured out that allow you to
operate this team of eighteen thousand developers and continue to ship great product. So if you had to pick like I don't know, two or three
Key ways of working.
What would those be?
One big one, uh it's a cliche, but it's true, is uh the the
Fear of failure.
No uh we
actually empow our teams to to to make mistakes.
Like no one's gonna get fired for uh releasing something that uh
didn't work in the sense that maybe the market was not ready or uh we had the wrong idea on on on where we have to implement. Obviously there's a lot less tolerance for okay, bad quality and it failed because the product wasn't good or or or or is going offline or or uh
Those kinds of uh failures are are
much less tolerated, uh but we do encourage our teams to take a lot of risks.
on what we should actually be working on. Uh
We also let them be very independent. I think it goes.
hand in hand. So there for example, we don't operate with OKRs, uh where everything just like trickles down into what every team is uh is supposed to do.
We have very high level objectives on where we want the the the company to be. And they're not even that long term. It's not like we have a ten year plan and and I think in in a market that's changing so much. Even before AI, no, it's an extremely competitive market with
very dynamic regulations in in in multiple countries. So it's it's it's hard to say like, okay, this is a plan for ten years and these are the OKRs. And now everyone go into your teams and implement
The specific features that that that are gonna point to that.
The way we run it is these are the objectives. These are maybe some of the new businesses or areas where we would like to explore, but everything else is up to the teams. Oh, we we just cascade the the main vision of of where the company's going.
And there's a lot of uh another cliche freedom and responsibility, saying like okay.
Do whatever literally whatever you think is best.
for uh our users, for for the company, for for what we want to uh accomplish.
There's gonna be tight feedback loops on that to also make sure everyone's pointing in the same direction. But you can't sort of like
be uh telling eighteen thousand people exactly what they should be working on every day and and and expect that to to work.
Also there's a fun combination of
What can you delegate, what can you not delegate? Um also I think very hands on
wherever we can be. So the the the we can't be on every single detail, but in the projects that we feel are most important
the whole leadership team goes extremely deep now into working with the team, uh understanding what the restrictions are, what the what's working, what's not working, and and and and pushing the the team forward.
I think that's um that's
That's probably the main one. Uh we also talked about putting users before revenue. Oh, I think that's another
uh big one that the that we've liked. Uh
And there's another tricky aspect of it, because this is life is trade offs. Oh, but so you say, Okay, let' let let's be very distributed on on on what the teams are are gonna be working on, then you can end up with a product
That has
Great parts.
But once you put them all together.
horrible and it's uh it sucks.
People don't like it. Uh so you also need a a a mix of okay, uh this is the holistic vision, uh, this is what we want to accomplish, th this is
what probably the end product is gonna look like and then you can build the the
The features. Uh and there's no like one rule that basically applies to all projects. There are times where
you can have more freedom. There are times where you do require uh a lot more sort of like
Yeah, one vision of of of where things are going.
I think that's uh that's another important one. What else?
We like to observe users more than talk to users. No, you always hear uh talk to users, uh listen to users, they're gonna tell you what they want, what they need. Um that works sometimes. Uh we've seen that what works best.
It's just to observe them.
Whether that's
Literally like user research sessions and just
Seeing what uh what people are doing with the
With the product, uh I'm sure this has happened to you and to many people that that listen to your show and and and uh you cringe at all the assumptions that that are being crushed before your eyes as as someone
types in their email and uh their name in the same field because your field said email comma
Name. Oh, so you could either have the email or the username, and people say, Well, I'll I'll write both because that's what they're asking of me. So the a lot of examples like this where
Observing users is uh
Extremely valuable.
I think the those are the ones that come to mind.
Okay. This is a great let me follow up on a couple of these.
So mm, what I'm hearing is there's a lot of independent and kind of uh distribution of
Of ownership.
Yeah, where teams can kinda go off and build their own stuff.
As you pointed.
Uh
It's important to have a vision and some sense of what success looks like and make sure everyone's rowing in the same direction.
just going a level deeper, how do you actually operationalize that sort of
way of operating where teams can do their own thing.
But you also share vision. Like how often do you
Update that vision, how do you communicate it, and then how do you check in?
With teams.
Yeah.
To make sure they're heading towards the right.
In the right direction.
We don't do anything magical there. We we do a lot of
Design reviews, I think is a term that that they would probably use in and or product reviews.
in the in the US, where it's like okay, this is what we're working on, this is what it looks like, this is what all the pieces together
are doing and and and working or not working. Uh and there the the leadership team is extremely candid and uh honest on their
Feedback always cordial, uh and and uh uh a happy uh work environment.
But definitely on the side of of of being honest about what's working, what's not working, uh
Whether the the vision was mistaken as well. Th there are many times where we've uh thought
This was the right direction.
Turns out it's not and we can uh pivot very quickly into uh uh
A new thing, um so no no big secrets. Oh just uh the
The the maybe the only secret is
You can't
Check absolutely everything.
eighteen thousand people. Uh so to give you another crazy uh statistic we do around
thirty thousand deployments per day.

Uh PRs. Oh a day. PRs deploys. Yeah. Like changes. Changes to to to a system. It can be configuration changes. It can be
uh database updates or or whatever like
Things that that that change. So
Th there's no way uh anyone can check what
those thirty thousand changes are
Are doing.
That's more than one per developer. Yeah. Yeah. Some of them are automated changes uh as well. Uh but yeah, we we uh we have a very uh high speed of uh
of execution and uh
Yeah, it's uh
quite fun to to be around. Something that that that that's changing that rapidly and and that dramatically.
Um we
Again, have many different businesses, many different competitors and and different businesses.
who operate at world class whether it's fine
Whether it's uh e commerce, um I would even say
Brazil is probably one of the most competitive markets on the planet for for e commerce. You have local players, you have international players, you have players from Asia that are
even funded by video game uh revenue and and and and profits
Um
great dynamic market to to be around.
I like that optimism. That way of framing it.
Well, do we we we like competition. Uh especially when you're competing with with sort of like the top of the top and uh it pushes you to be better as well.
Mm.
This point you made earlier about
The being the
the top company in a market is really interesting. I was I was wondering if I wanted to come to this, but I think it's interesting to talk about for a bit.
So I've had a few uh
Product leaders from companies like
Revolute and twenty six.
Uh, I haven't had Intercom on yet, but the f co founder's coming on soon.
And

Conversations about w how they've built
such a strong product team that pumps out incredible product leaders is there the top
Startup.
in their market.
And it's just a interesting thread of just how much power comes with being
The most successful company in a market.
And just like the cycle of success that comes from that in terms of hiring amazing people.
Is there anything else there that you think might be interesting to folks that are I don't know that wanna try to do something like this other than just build a successful business?
I think it applies to to many things and and you often also hear like well
You're not in the Bay Area, uh, you're not in the the pinnacle of of and the capital of uh of technology. So how can you build amazing technology? No, and and there are advantages as well. I think you you you would find the same with
You mentioned a a a bunch of companies that that have experience that where
Okay, y if you can be the the top in the region where there's great talent, no and like by
statistical definition there's
Great talent everywhere. It's it's uh probably follows a uh uh a probabilistic distribution, so but it's everywhere. A lot of it does flow into the the the US, and it's absolutely true that there's uh
A very high concentration of talent.
Outside specific companies.
I think that's probably the the one thing you don't get outside of uh of the big tech hubs where
I you uh are of the top company.
But you are.
the only top company, and I'm I'm exaggerating a bit, right? There are great companies uh throughout the world and in Latin America, and you have
Unicorns and there are outliers. Um
But the truth is
you're setting your own path and you're setting your your your own map and uh the setting your own destination. You're building things that have not been built before and in in a different way. And it's it's very fun, uh that's for sure.
Uh by the way, I'll correct I I said Intercom. I don't think I think they're technically a US based company, but I think a lot of it a lot of their team is in Ireland or is originally in Ireland.
Just to be clear there. And then there's other companies like Canva and Atlassian. I feel like there's
This is really like what I'm taking away from this is if you want to build a company outside of the US
You need to be the best.
In that market.

Take advantage of this
cycle that happens where the best come to you. Yeah, maybe you you could say you have to be the best eventually, oh, if you want to like have that flywheel.
running. Uh it's hard to start and be the the best uh and the biggest, no when when when you're just getting started. Uh but I think just knowing that there's
great talent everywhere and and that it is possible to attract them uh without
being in a specific tech hub.
Maybe even empowering, all to like okay th I wanna start a uh a company here.
I think we can also be honest that it will be harder. Oh, it it is easier to
recruit and and and build a team where you're in a place where
the high density is all over. Uh another thing that happens to us is that
Many people try to recruit from us, uh, and that's something that we have to deal with. Um
But if you actually
get that uh flywheel going, um it becomes into a a clear advantage.
I wanna come back to something you said that I think
might be there might be something more there, which is around reducing the fear of failure.
A lot of companies and leaders say that and they're like, Yeah, yeah, we let people fail. Totally, no problem.
But then in reality, you know, they perform interviews, they gotta show impact, they have to show success.
Is there something you do to actually
create that sort of culture where failing is okay. Like what can people learn from you to actually
create that sort of culture. I think that question is even more on like
how does culture work at uh at any company, especially at at at hours? No, it's very clear that it's not what you write on the walls or what you put on on on your website uh from from what F Learn and what we've seen
it it's something it it's what you do, no? It's it's what the leadership team is is doing is how I get my performance reviews.
how I get either praise or not praise and in in public. No, what are the acceptable errors, what are the not acceptable errors. Uh because again, if we have uh a system outage, oh uh it's obviously unacceptable. Like that's not the the the kind of error that that we're going for. We're going for
Well, you took uh uh a risk and a very bold vision, and it turns out it was not the right path.
You're not gonna get penalized for that. Uh you might even get a uh a promotion and and th those messages that that you send are extremely powerful. No, and um
who has what title, who gets promoted, who doesn't get promoted, uh, who is is getting what praise in public, no um what announcements are made on
New products. How do we talk about things that that that didn't work? No
one very clear one is like okay, this didn't work and and and yes, we like risk with the person that led the project was fired. No it's like, well then you're not sort of like
living what your uh what you have on your website. Also uh
uh I think it is not more complicated than that. You need to live it, you need to show it, and um you also need to like
Have people that will
take in that culture and also propagate it into their teams. That's also the way
it scales uh in the in the organization, but it definitely starts
with the the top management of the of the company and again what they are focused on, uh what messages they're sending to
to the rest of the of the company. They participate in the product reviews. They they are very aware uh at least of all the
big features that that we launch and the
The feedback is direct and uh clear.
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You talked about this idea of being direct and honest, but also
Maintaining a cordial environment.
Talk about just that balance in the culture you've created of being direct. Kind of this idea of radical candor is what I'm hearing. Yeah. So the the book became very very popular. No. Um The book Radical Candor. Yeah. Yeah. It's uhwhill. We had Kim Scott on the podcast. It's a great book. And um the concept is is also great.
I would even say it's even more important in uh Latin America, uh in some Asian countries.
where you have uh a culture and I'm Latin American, so I can talk a little bit about stereotypes without it uh becoming uh
Offensive, uh, especially ones that that are true.
where there's a lot of hierarchy and okay, I'm not gonna tell my boss that he's wrong. Uh we're just gonna do this because he said so or she said so. This is the way it works and and this is the way it's always been done. So that's the way we're we're
We're gonna do it. Uh I don't wanna stand out. No these are sort of like
cultural stereotypes that we are extremely aware of when we
When we operate, uh people are extremely polite in Latin America as well. I don't know if you've if if you're traveled, everyone will smile at you. It will be very hard for someone to say no to something, uh even like meetings or whatnot, or yeah, yes, but later, yes, but later, and and and and they actually uh
mean no. I think they're
Argentina uh and other countries but Argentina where the company was was founded is is an exception to that, where people are uh very direct. Uh
I will tell my boss if he if he's wrong. Uh it's something that I love about the company and we've been able to sort of like
Export that and also select for people that will actually uh
behaven and
In that way.
Extremely direct.
uh extremely candid, uh we're honest uh about what's working, what what's not working.
And it's a it's a it's a learning that every uh like
manager or or leader goes through like well, I don't want to hurt people's feelings, you know, uh I wanna be friends with everyone. Uh I think we all start on on on that path.
And eventually you realize that people like the the the honest but might not like it in the very short term or in the medium term sometimes.
Even uh but my experience has been
If you're coming from uh a place of honesty
Again, if you're sort of like not insulting anyone or or kinda like
crossing a a line where where things uh
feel personal, uh people appreciate the the feedback. People like growing, people like if if you have your performance review and everything comes back positive.
What are you gonna do with that? I was like, Well, he's doing great, uh everything's perfect.
Thank you, uh, for being a part of the company.
Well that like w what could I be doing better? What's not working?
It's also a skill to separate
that from from your person, no? That w we do have situations where uh I've had to have conversations on like well
You you got this strong feedback, but but it's on the product, you know? It's like
maybe on on on the vision that we are pursuing or on the execution, uh that their work has nothing to do like with you. We can we can go out and and and and have lunch, uh and and uh we'll still be uh cordial and and uh
But this uh idea of
Well, the companies should be like families and and it's not true because you you behave extremely different with with your family. There's no expectation of high performance. Uh I mean in some families, obviously, uh and and in some cases even in in and mine we can talk about that, but it's always from from from a different perspective, whereas
I think the analogy that we use much more often is of a high performance sports team.
Where it's very clear.
Where the line is between yes, we can have fun together and we should as we work on on interesting things.
But when you uh are talking about
work and and the performance and and what's working, what's not working.
The the
the results speak for themselves usually and we just don't hide that from from anyone.
Speaking of that, along those same lines, I heard you do this you d do something that uh
uh is a little controversial these days, but you did this a long time ago, which is you send it weekly email.
Asking what did you get done this week?
And you share what you get got done this week.
Uh talk about just that. Yeah, yeah, so it's so it became a a a meme, uh what was it like

I used to do it before that, I should uh I should say. And I should also uh clarify that
I don't actually have an expectation that the that people are gonna send that to me. It's something I do myself.
Oh, so I'll I'll uh sort of like go over
What I did in the week, what worked.
What didn't work, uh, even what interesting things I discovered, uh, and I will share that.
with uh the executive team with uh with our CEO who I report to
Uh I'll share that some some of them with with my team. No, it's basically helps me keep track of of of what's working, what's not working.
I I usually also get feedback on on those emails, uh, or help or uh saying like, Well, let's talk about this and this and that. So I think that's something super simple that anyone can do, right? Like you can write like an uh a weekly email to your boss or to your team and saying, like, well, this is this is what happened this week. This is
uh what work, this is what didn't work, this is maybe something I need help with, or or or something that stuck. Uh maybe we can unlock it together. Uh I think it's
Strange that um not
I I haven't heard a lot of people doing it. I think I actually read it somewhere uh uh a couple of years ago, and that's probably where where I got the idea.
Uh I'll I'll look it up to see if we can link it on your uh your notes so I don't take credit for it. I wrote a post about this actually. I called it the State of Me. Okay, maybe it was you. I wonder if it was you. Either way, a link to this post and the whole idea, and there's like a
less controversial way of asking this instead of what did you do get done this week, which is I call it the state of me, I call it the state of Lenny.
email and basically every week it was a a weekly thing for me, not a daily thing.
I email my end manager. Here's what I got done. Here's my next set of priorities.
And here's blockers I need you to help you. Oh, I probably got it from you. It's sounding extremely familiar. So I send the weekly email. I I call it a weekly update. It's also not like
What did I get done this week?
It's it it can be what I got done uh on the week, but like important things are happening, new releases.
Uh that also frees up a lot of time uh for example with uh with my COO
Uh, or like okay, on the weekly meeting, we don't have to talk about like
those specific things where we can pick out from that email uh what's relevant, what's working, what's not working. So definitely a great tool. And and and I'm pretty sure I got from from your post uh just hearing it. What a what a circle of light you've got here.
Yeah.
Okay, so speaking of things that you did before other people.
Something else that came up a lot in chatting with folks that work with you is
They pointed out that you're really good at not falling
For hype cycles, you're good at
being really pragmatic about things that are everyone's really excited about, like crypto.
Gen AI these days.
How do you approach stuff? How do you approach new things that everyone's like super excited about and uh not kind of fall into this trap of just like, Oh, we all gotta pivot and do this thing that everyone else is doing.
I I haven't thought about it that way, uh but it's true. Uh it it's true in some sense.
'Cause it it it's not like I just ignore it. So I uh think I I uh bought or even mine my my my first Bitcoin and like
Two thousand and ten or twelve or or something like that. We can like le leave it undisclosed how many and and and how many I still have to do it. Why are you still working? Uh no, not not enough for that.
Um a lot of great lessons on on on selling and and
when the right time and whatnot. So it's not like I I I ignored uh what was happening. No, but the the the I'm definitely
Sceptic.
Of most things, I would say.
Even uh I I like doing a lot of research. Uh
Deep research is is is a great tool. Like I use it all the time for for a lot of things.
I do it myself, um as well. So
What
crypto, for example, I love the technology, actually. The I think there there are there are some uh very fun breakthroughs there, the the distributed uh consensus and
You get like uh a single thing, but then you you start to run some of the numbers on like okay, so uh what's the throughput? And then what can you actually
put in there, at least with the technology that that we had uh at the time.
Lot of things are are are moving quickly and you got layer two and layer three and and whatnot, but I think
having a um a good understanding of the uh fundamentals and also being involved probably in like
what I would call quote unquote the real world in a business and and like understanding the scale of uh what's necessary for for
For things to work, uh is it's helpful.
Uh keeping a a a level head. Oh, on like
What are some of the
main characteristics of
We can talk about and by the way, like we we have crypto and and in mercado libre, uh we have our own cryptocurrency. So it's not like we uh just say like well
crypto is is uh not useful and and it's actually very useful in
uh in Latin America and countries where uh access to to US dollars are uh
It is not as easy as uh in in other places. Uh but I think going from that to saying like, okay, every single thing on the planet is gonna run on uh on the blockchain, that's where some of my alarms start to go off and it's like well, it can be a great technology and it can be very successful without having to take over the
the world uh
Which
can also turn into AI or again the claims are that
uh will take over the the the world and and and and happy to uh
Talk about that.
Just understanding the the the fundamentals
of the technology that's being potentially hyped.
and uh having a good understanding of how it could be applied to something useful for for people. Uh
I think it's
Words.
Been helpful.
Awesome. Okay.
Let's pivot to talking about you as a human. There's just like so many stories I heard from people that I I want to hear about.
Okay, so one is that
You built an app.
You put an app store, Steve Jobs called you and
He's like
Sebastian, we gotta remove your app.
Yeah.
Yeah. Talk about that story. Yeah. So th w we should clarify that the app was a bit strange. Uh so it was an an an app that
literally helped you drain your phone's battery.
Th there were two reasons why why I made it. One was because I was like learning about all the different sensors on the on the phone, like GPS and gyroscope and and and and the screen and and
and whatnot. So I said I'm gonna turn them all on at the same time. Uh and that's gonna uh really warm up your
Your phone. Um
On the other end, uh there was like this
This trend I'm not even sure where where the that ended up where
It was better for your phone to run completely out of battery and then recharge it. I think now the recommendation is actually that it should stay between like ten percent and eighty percent uh at all times to to maintain battery health.
I was like, okay, so the when you have like two percent left and you just want to get it over with and and and get the battery down, you open this app and like drain it. Um I like that there's a reason for this. I could see just doing it for fun, but I like there's functionality here. Yeah, yeah. I I always try to uh make it useful. Um at least for
For me. So I put it on on on the app store and and and this was the time where um like
The apps are was starting and and the app review process and and uh people were actually getting very mad that their apps were getting rejected.
We're used to like a a world where
I just put my app out there and anyone can download it.
So developers were were going to the press to say like, Well, Apple is not approving my app and then articles will be written and it would be like a a PR thing.
So the executive team at Apple, including Steve.
uh were actually calling developers uh to inform them that their apps were not gonna be approved, or they were gonna take in off the uh off the app store, uh kinda like trying to avoid them going to the press and and just
Like being more personal and explaining what uh
What was wrong with with the app? And so so one day I'm walking uh in the street and and and I get a phone and a blocked uh number, like maybe can't identify it.
Pick up uh hi Sebastian, this is Steve from Apple.
I'm here to well uh I need to talk to you about your your app. Uh we're not gonna be able to to have it on the app store.
This is draining people's batteries and and we don't want that for uh
For people uh actually push back a little bit. Uh I thought like, Well, you know, I I read all the rules uh of uh of the app store before making this app and there's no rule against draining the
The battery, uh he's thought we check again,'cause we've just added a new rule. Uh that apps cannot
overly drain the the uh the the battery on the phones.
So I'm happy to say there is an app store rule that uh is was made specifically for for me uh at the time.
Actually didn't realize I had uh
spoken to Steve Jobs until like a couple of minutes later. He was like, Well, yeah, someone called Steve from Apple
There's probably a lot of Steve's.
I was like, Well, you know, that that voice sounded extremely familiar. And um I was like, Okay. And then articles started popping up of
Like Steve and and the rest of the executive team.
uh calling developers to to let them know that that this was happening. Uh so I was happy to confirm that I had
Uh
Please had a a short phone conversation with
What Steve uh
Quite the legend.
That is an incredible story.
First of all, I just love that Steve Jobs was calling
Random app developers and

Like how did he have the time? I just love that he took you know, that they realized this is important.
And if people hear from us, that'll actually go over better.
Uh even though people kept
Posting, right? Like people are like Steve Jobs call me should touch on my app.
So a little backfired maybe.
Uh any how did he sound? Was he just like did he was he this nice radical candor balance of
Yeah, yeah. Uh and it's not what you would again stereotypically hear from him. No. He was a lot more Mercurial, I think is the term that that people use. Uh but none of that on on the call. He was actually
Pretty nice and and and chill and say like, Well, we're not gonna log your app just a matter of fact. Yeah.
Uh and then y you said that they added this rule as they're going to be.

We have a new rule. I guess they could do that, right? It's like our place, our store. Wow. Okay. Amazing story. Uh did that discourage you from building more apps or you just like holy shit. No, absolutely not. I was very happy to talk to Steve. I I I sent him a few uh emails.
Uh, I never got a reply, to be honest, but uh send some emails on on feedback on again, like the app store, the iOS and uh whatnot. I was super young, by the way, at the time. I think I was like
Uh sixteen or or seventeen.
Seventeen or eighteen when uh when I developed that.
That app. Uh I was like
Yeah, I don't know what I mean.
it meant no to to to get a call from him and and uh to send him emails and expect uh
A reply and and whatnot, uh
That was a a fun experience and um I I kept building more apps.
Actually started a mobile app development company um a few uh months after
After that, which is another another fun story.
Well, maybe this is the story, but I know that at nineteen you built an app that became the number one app in nineteen countries.
Maybe just briefly share that story. That one is super fun. Um so I
had a girlfriend who I really like at the time.
I don't know if if if that happened in the US, but in many Latin American countries and I think around the world
Uh phone companies came out with something where you could call five numbers for five minutes for free, like a five for five for five.
So I had my
girlfriend's number on there and we would talk for for for five minutes. But what they did is if you went over like one second, they would charge the whole five minutes. Uh and and and and phone balls were expensive. Now uh we're gonna sound like old people when when we talk about this soon. That was like a a big deal, especially for for for a teenager. No, I I didn't have like
money to throw around and and uh on on on my phone bill. So I made this app that was extremely simple. It
alarmed you or like it sent a a notification when you're close to reaching the five minutes. So you could just hang up and call again and have another five
Three minutes and then call again.
I did it for myself. Uh it turned out to be a good investment'cause I ended up marrying my uh girlfriend uh she's still my wife and we have a a a beautiful family together.
Um, it also turned out to be a a good business decision. So it cost
A hundred dollars, I think it still does to to upload an app to the app store. I thought okay, I need to sell like
Around a hundred copies. I mean there are fees and whatnot, but let's say
I have to sell a hundred copies for one dollar. So I'll I'll put on the app store. That was my business plan.
And it absolutely exploded. Uh became the top selling app in Mexico and and a lot of other different countries. Uh it was not not a free app. Uh and it was also like
completely local. So there was like no back end, no cost, no advertising.
Uh was a uh a very profitable um endeavor.
That also very quickly turned into uh
A business in itself. Oh, but and then uh a separate business where people this was when the the app store was starting, when the iPhone was w was getting big.
Uh so I actually got contacted by a lot of different companies, like multinationals, governments, no saying like well, you have the number one app.
We want you to build an app for us. Uh there weren't that many people.
Into uh iPhone OS at the time it was called uh development.
Objective C and and all the ways to to to build a a good app. So I started building apps myself for a bunch of different people and companies. Um eventually I couldn't scale that and had to hire people.
So I hired my friends from from college and taught them how to do uh apps. Uh actually all learned from uh a free online course uh from Stanford.
It's a great course on on on how to build apps. Uh'cause I I remember going to to my university professors and saying, Hey, the iPhone is cool. I want to learn how to like
Make these apps who can teach me and they're like
No one, like this new, like no one knows how to
uh how to do it. So I also had to learn on my on my own, but then I was able to to teach people
Turned that into a mobile app development company, did that for oh
two years, uh and it turns out to be
a very good business, but it's also like boring to have to start over new projects and new projects and new projects. I I like going deep into things and iterating and and actually
creing products that that that people love. Uh
So we decided to sell the consulting side of of that.
keep the the mainly mobile team uh start working on fun products uh that we could uh like actually scale and scale exponentially. One of those was ordering ordering taxis from your phone.
No, so at the time uh Uber was starting in in San Francisco
They started kind of like a private network of of of drivers and like fancy cars and uh eventually it was open to
Uh to a lot of people.
I thought, well, that would work great for for taxis and and Mexico City is is is the city with the most taxis on the planet, uh at least outside.
um Asia.
And the the uh at the time in San Francisco, for example, at least taxis had kinda like a a a clunky computer and they were like these track by GPS wore up, but like
In Mexico they they use radios and you had to call uh a number and you never knew if your taxi was coming or not.
So we developed a very simple test.
It sounds silly now that

Like not sure or are people gonna trust uh
getting on a car that they got from a phone.
In Mexico City, uh when your parents have told you like don't trust people on the internet and and don't get into strangers' cars.
So we're like combining two things that that that people were taught not to do by their
By their parents.
We decided to just do the passenger app.
uh and test whether people uh actually like this. So when you requested a car.
We would call uh a taxi.
company and basically just call for you and send the the the car over
And that was enough for it to explode.
Like we could not deal with the demand. We actually had to build
like an intermediary call center to like call other call centers uh while we develop the driver side of the of the marketplace and and and actually got drivers on on board.
And once you got the flywheel and then you got a lot of drivers and a lot of writers and the network effects.
uh then it started to uh to scale and and work uh those uh uh
A fun experience.
Oh man. You're just a well of fascinating stories. I love this kind of journey of sharing of just like at sixteen I think you built that app that Steve Jobs called you about, was right. Yeah, yeah, maybe so. Okay, yeah.
So okay, from that to now managing something like eighteen thousand engineers. I I love this journey.
Uh also competing with Uber along the way. Yeah. Yeah.
Very intense competition.
I've always enjoyed competition.
That's
The epitome of intense competition, from what I hear.
Uh okay, another uh
Interesting thing about you that I've heard is that you drink
You drink no alcohol, which I think is common these days, but this is something you've been doing for a long time. You also drink no tea.
No coffee.
No juice, no soda, just water.
What's going on there?
Why is that?
I just love water. Water is uh is amazing.
Uh, I think it the i i it it's not the like the same reason for for everything. It has turned now into like well
I'm happy with water, like
Why do I have to like
alter my brain with uh chemicals. Like I like my brain. We have a a good relationship and uh I sleep well and I I don't feel like I need
uh stimulants of of of any kind uh already have uh
A lot of fun. Uh it did start in different ways. So uh the the the legal drinking age in in Mexico is eighteen.
Um
like younger than th than in the US. Uh so people actually start drinking when they're 16, right? Uh so very early, I got to see like
The effects of at least
Drinking a lot.
can have on on on your body and and uh I just never want it to be in in that situation where I didn't have like
control of of my destiny and and and I mean control, right? We don't have a lot of control on our destinies, but at least, you know, like physical control of like I wanna walk there and can I walk there. Uh I I think that
really marks you when you see like young people over drinking. It's not a uh a fun picture. Then I understand people.
like adults can drink responsibly and and have fun with with friends and whatnot, but
I never got into it and I think if you it's like an acquired taste, uh I don't particularly enjoy the the flavor of like
beer and and and and different alcohols.
Coffee, it's also similar. I don't like how it tastes. It tastes extremely bitter to me. I also think it's an acquired taste where
Like, okay, well the effect is great'cause I get like a lot of energy.
And then you start to like appreciate the the flavor, but I don't think it starts with the
With the flavor. So again, I never got into it. Uh tea, I think is is something that
I could drink, but I just never think of um of drinking it. Uh and I'll probably erase you
even one stranger that uh I don't know if my my uh the friends you you interviewed mentioned. I actually also don't listen to a lot of music. Also uh
When I program that I like to program in silence.
uh which I know seems like extremely strange to to to a lot of programmers and
And developers. Uh and I think the reason for that one and also talking about the the
Interesting background is my my dad's an orchestra conductor.
Uh so I
one to maybe like hundreds of concerts uh for
big orchestras and backstage and I was actually
Uh very fun. But I think I had enough music for for for a while. Uh and it's not like I don't enjoy music. My wife is really into music and we listen to music together uh and with our kids and and everything, but I I never have like the idea
Of um of putting on music myself.
So that's another strange one to share.
That was a good one. I had not heard that one.
Uh
And then another couple of things I heard is that you basically don't do any social media.
You also don't watch the news, uh you don't watch T V really.
Is that all true? That is true.
That is true. Uh for a really long time.
We don't even have a T V.
Like of uh like the device. No. Uh we we bought one uh when uh my son was born.
And we couldn't go to the movies anymore.'Cause I do like like media. No, I like I I like movies from time to time. Uh we do watch shows from time to time, but we can watch them on an iPad.
I think it's a lot less uh addictive though if the screen is small. Uh
So e even though we have a uh a TV now, we don't we don't use it very often. Um I love reading. Um I the and the the the social media thing I think it's worth uh qualifying as well. Like I enjoy X a lot, like Twitter, uh and reading like what people are
thinking, what's happening what's not happening, uh that's probably like my my main source of
News uh
I don't follow any like news organizations just because
I feel like I'm gonna find out if something
extremely important is happening. Uh like now uh the the the
whole political and geopolitical environment is extremely volatile.
And I hear about that.
from like people that that I follow and sometimes I'll retweet articles and and
I'll read them. Um
I think
There was a uh uh
A fun memory of of my childhood.
Oh when
We had a TV in the uh in the house.
And and and my mom's also a very curious character.
stuck uh uh assigned to it that said
Everything you see here
Is a lie.
Uh, she stuck the sign to the front to the TV. Yeah. I don't think she meant it for like news and she didn't get into the whole misinformation thing and and and whatnot. It was mostly on like, well, you're gonna watch cartoons of like people flying and be careful, like don't jump off the the roof of the house. And I think it was more more uh
In that sense, but it probably stuck with me of uh like being very
Independent minded and
Do your own research and and uh actually understand what you're uh hoping for and and and what you wanna do. Again, I I I'm not like
uh closing my ears and eyes to to what's happening in in the world. And I do follow a lot of uh like tech
Coverage and and that I enjoy a lot. Like
New programming languages, new frameworks.
new model developments. Uh so when I talk about news, it's probably like
the bad news that I think people can sometimes even get addicted to of like, okay, if I turn on the TV and put the local news channel channel
It's just gonna be bad news. Uh, and I know that like statistically is not all bad news.
So why am I gonna like
Watch a show that's
Pointing out.
very unique things that don't happen very often that are um not happy stories.
I don't know who said this once, but it's always stuck with me along these lines of what you just said.
That we're just not designed to know all the bad things happening in the world.
Every day.
Like we'd lived in small tribes or a couple, maybe something bad happened that day.
We're not evolved to
Because
comprehend s so many calamities globally that we should not even know. Absolutely right out of uh uh I I can't imagine our brains were um evolved into well, you know, you open your phone and you get like
Unlimited information about any single topic that that you want. Um I think you have to be like purposeful of what you're reading, what you're seeing.
You can find absolutely anything.
Amazing things.
horrible things. So why am I gonna like focus on the horrible things?
I love that and I feel the same way.
Uh, this is such a cool glimpse into just what it takes to be
uh extremely successful to go from building this app that Steve Jobs down to running a company and a team this size.
Uh, is there anything else along those lines that we haven't talked about that might be helpful for folks either about how you
Operate as a human.
Morning routine trick, I don't know, anything else that we haven't touched on along those lines. I I don't have uh uh as strict a routine as you would expect when you talk like to executives and and whatnot, like well, this is the time that I do this, the time that I do this.
Uh I think what's worked great for me is to follow my curiosity.
Uh
Thankfully, I think I have good intuition.
Uh but even like in in life and in in my work, uh like on
It's hard to say like well
This is a formula for what you should focus on today.
I have an intuition of
what I'm most curious about, uh, and and thankfully that usually aligns with
what we should be working on and and where I can add the
the most value to to my teams, to to the company, to my family, to my career, to to to the things I'm
I'm learning. Um I think that that that's probably
What's been the guiding principle for me? Oh like
follow your your curiosity, what excites you.
Uh it's also probably what you're gonna
No, because it it's hard to do.
Compete
With someone who loves what they're doing, if you don't love that thing. But if you go in and say, Well, this is my curiosity, this is what I love.
Uh
I'm probably gonna be good at it and and it's not gonna be like something I have to force myself into. No. So I think that that's something that I've done.
Throughout my whole life and and career that's uh worked very well.
I had Toby Ludke on the podcast and we were talking talking about raising kids for a little bit.
And we chatted about what do you want your kid to learn most? Like what's the most important.
trait to develop and his
His
Inkling is developing curiosity. Developing curiosity. I think I I I would agree. I think the the the other one that you need is probably
It's also a trending topic now, but agency.
Something like
It's not probably enough to just be curious, but like be curious and and and go get what you
What you want. Uh we were raised
in a very uh intensely independent way. Also my uh
My mother mainly uh had these
fun ideas on on how she wanted us to to be. No she wanted us to be able to handle
quote unquote any situation. And uh
The analogy that that she used is that she wanted to train as like spice.
Uh so so I was I was thinking Sparta. Yeah. Well I'll I'll share one fun story.
Uh
One one morning she wakes us up, like, Hey, we're going camping.
Uh everyone get ready. Like no warning. We're we're leaving right now. Uh I remember uh what my my little brother, just so you understand how how how that plant work.
His only question was
Should I go on my pajamas or should I change uh
Uh so we go and uh turns out we're we're
I I think it would be actually hard to call it camping because we we we're camping with no gear.
Oh, so it was a uh survival camp training, uh is what we were going to do.
Uh there was an instructor and it wasn't like uh completely uh irresponsible, but it was like
Find your own water, build your own shelter.
Boil it, start your own fire.
Uh
That was a fun one. Um another fun one and the house to celebrate New Year's.
Um another fun one was
She would drop us in the like in the middle of the city. And this is Mexico City.
Uh she says she would then just like leave us alone.
I don't remember. I think she was just following us, but uh like you have to get back home. Um and then you have to like know public transit or ask someone for help.
And basically like uh solve
problems uh she would send us on international trips also
alone. So I I I think there there were many things that she did.
Uh she she called it independent, no? She she wanted us to be independent. I think the term that we could use now is like agency if like
Solve your problems. Just
go and get things and and and get things done. Uh I think that was also very informative of of of the way I am and
I approach uh different problems.
Do you feel like she might have actually been training you to be a spy?
Maybe we w we also did a lot of uh skiing, biking, uh trekking, and and you know, like also the action parts of the uh
of the spy experience uh we we used tease her
Still that she she didn't enjoy activities that didn't have like a liability release.
uh before you uh before you did them. Uh so yeah, repel, climbing.
Uh we had a a very fun childhood.
This explains a lot. I feel like I could do another hour just diving into your childhood and what made you who you are today, but maybe we'll save that for part two.
Uh I feel like we've did an uh we've done a great job.
giving people a sense of just how interesting you are as a person and also just the uniqueness of Mercado Libre and what they built in the business that you help run.
Is there anything else that we haven't touched on that you think might be helpful to folks or that you want to leave listeners with before we get to our very exciting lightning round?
I think we covered a lot. I also um happy to to be able to share, no mercury that doesn't operate in the US.
I think that's the main reason why it's like
not a uh a uh such a well known uh tech company. I think it's changing. Uh
with the stock growing as well, it it helps like a lot of people actually uh know it from investing and and and being very happy with the
with the performance. Uh so thank you for for for letting me share some of what we do and some of what I've been doing.
Absolutely. And with that we've reached our very exciting lightning round. I've got
Five questions for you. Are you ready? I'm ready.
What are two or three books that you recommend most to other people?
This is a good one. I think it it it depends on like
the the person that I'm recommended to. I I try to actually make it relevant to to what they're doing. Uh if we go like statistically
uh it's usually within the company. So uh management related, high output management, I think is uh is a great one. Uh but I also have been recently recommending people read The Odyssey. Uh it's a super, super uh like inspiring uh story. Like there's it's not a coincidence that it's
uh survived for for for thousands of years. It's like
A really fun read and and uh something that just resonates with um with a lot of people.
Um
Another book that that I really like, it's called The Dream Machine. Uh and it's kinda like the the the story of uh computers and computing and uh the internet and and uh like for example, why is Ethernet called Ethernet? Um there was Aloha Net before
Uh that's also a great one to to understand some of like
The things that the that we rely on and then
These sort of like we stand in the shoulders of of giants.
Constantly to to build the things we do.
I think that's that's another great one and'cause the rest are probably
more fiction and I love Doom, I love science fiction.
Uh
What you would expect.
Okay. This next question, I know you don't watch TV, so let me just ask.
Is there a favorite recent movie that you watch that you really enjoyed? Yeah, yeah. I mean recent, uh I I don't go to the movies as often as I used to since I uh had kids. Uh
Uh sometimes we we we go with them, but I I think probably the the last one that
Resonated with me or that I thought was awesome was everything everywhere all at once. Uh
Just
Really fun movie, great acting.
Low budget. I didn't know when when when I watched at the time, I sort of like did did research on it later. Uh that one was was super fun. Uh Dune, I enjoyed a lot because uh
I like the the books, it's one of my favorite books.
Uh, but I do watch uh children's shows.
Oh uh from time to time.
There, I'm sure someone has probably mentioned Bluey already, uh, but it's amazing. Uh it's really well made for the kids.
For the parents, uh great messages, uh great animation. That's just
uh uh a gem that I really recommend.
Yeah, Bluey does come up a bunch. I feel like it's one of the
More mentioned.
Uh shows. You interview a lot of parents as well, then.
I guess I do. And I'm I'm a new parent, so I think of that. I'm pulling them in.
Uh okay. Do you have a favorite product that you've recently discovered that you really love? Yeah, this one is gonna be fun uh for you as well as a parent. Uh I'm not sure if you've heard of Mentava. Uh it's a new
Kind of like
Way of teaching.
Uh kids to read.
Uh the Oh, the company. Okay, yes. Yeah. Say more. Yeah, yeah. Uh so that I mean it is a product. And it's great. I uh did it with my son and
Um kinda like I
quote unquote taught him how to read using the the program. Uh now he's probably the
the top reader in in in his class. Uh how old is he? So so he's uh five. Uh
And it the it's actually designed for
three, four, five year olds. Uh so it's probably late to to to the
Reading early bandwagon'cause it I haven't really uh seen strong evidence that
It actually changes outcomes uh in the future.
The best argument I've uh I've seen for it, uh from Matt Bateman. I'm I'm not sure if you're familiar with him, but he's great on um education and and and Montessori.
Is that
It can lead to a very enjoyable childhood if you can read early. So if you're like a a four year old, uh a five-year-old that can read very well, you'll you'll have a fun childhood.
with access to to to a lot more information. Uh so for us it wasn't like
uh a reading early of just making sure you have a really good fundamental on uh on reading because it's just a base skill that uh
Propagates to to the rest. And in that vein, actually, uh Beast Academy for math is another great one that uh
I w I recommend to uh to parents. Um great. Uh and maybe the the the last product I would mention, um David Protein Bars.
They're very good. I uh really like weightlifting. It's it's sort of like one of the things I do too.
Get my my my blood flowing.
uh super high quality ingredients, very high protein.
Uh I think it's actually a venture back company. I've
haven't talked to the founders, but reach out. Uh I would love to
To meet you. You guys are doing something fun. Uh I think th those are the ones that come to mind. 3D printers are also fun. I made a telescope with my son a couple of months ago.
That was very fun.
Yeah, there's a lot of new products now. It's a a fun time to be alive.
This is your category right here. Cool fun gadgets and products. I yeah. I feel like we this could be another hour of podcasting. Probably.
Okay.
Two more questions.
One do you have a favorite life motto?
that you often come back to find useful in work or in life.
But life and the world.
are malleable.
No, like the things aren't as
Set in stone as uh you would think. There's
usually a way to to to get
What you're after.
Uh
You actually have to be careful, I think, about what you want, because if you have like enough agency, you can probably get
quote unquote anything. So make sure you're uh looking for for for something good and that you're gonna be happy with the
But the result but th that's probably the main one. I've heard it phrased in many different ways. Uh Steve Jobs said of like
Well, you know, the world was built by people.
Like you, like me, uh some of them not smarter than you, some of them maybe smarter than you.
Uh so you can just go out and and do things as a new meme, no? And and uh
The world will probably
reconfigure itself to to help you, which is that that one's from from Mark Andreessen. Uh yeah. Just
Understanding that that you can uh actually change the world doesn't have to be in a massive way.
It's also possible. Uh just in
Uh, not just getting locked down to, well, you know, this is how it's done, or this is a culture here, or uh this is how it's always been done. Uh

We can change whatever we want.
What I'm hearing is your mom's goal of instilling agency in you
I would say so.
Uh
Yes, I uh I have fun solving problems.
Finding your way home from the center of Mexico City worked.
Final question.
Uh a colleague of yours, maybe friend, Christopher Lazarus, wanted me to ask you about something
Called the Tatami Project.
Does that ring a bell?
Talk about what that was. Yeah, yeah. That's from a long time ago. So you did your uh ver very good research.
Um
Yeah, talking about agency, at some point I wanted to have what's called a
I'm not an expert, but basically.
A room in your house where you have tatamis and you can like meditate there or train or or or practice.
Uh
My my room, um, like my childhood bedroom was uh strange in that it had kinda like a basement. So it had like
Two floors, you could open a hatch.
on the floor and and uncle down I think was like a thing from
How the house was built.
Uh I I uh
Decided that that was the best place for uh putting the the Tamis.
Uh, but I didn't want to have like
a roof on top of that. So I went and bought like construction gear and like huge diamond cutters uh and actually cut a big hole in the middle of my uh of my room uh put a stair and put the tatamis underneath so I kinda like
turned my uh my room into uh a two floor
Laft
Uh, which was pretty fun. Uh I hadn't thought about that in
In a while. I used to do a lot of uh hacker projects and maker things and I love
I love using my hands, I love building
Products, technology, code, but also
physical things, um had a lot of fun with Arduinos and building tiny robots.
Yeah, that's a that's a fun memory. But I did uh
Put a hole in the middle of my room.
Uh
My parents were always
Happy with us having projects.
Uh I was gonna ask, how did Joe Bon feel about this? I don't think they they they were thinking about like the the future sale value of the house or or whatnot. It actually turned out to be
uh I think people were interested they didn't sell the house, but they used to rent it and I was like, well, this is like strange. Maybe we'll put like something here and then uh it turned out to be
uh a good decision, but they were very open to us exploring and and making mistakes.
Then going back even to
to the start of our conversation on on
On how to
not get stuck uh as a big company, as a as a big team.
You need to
make mistakes and and and take risks and that's
Something that that was always uh encouraged.
By my parents.
That is a hilarious story. And just to be clear, it's a Tami Mat. It's like a thin mattress, basically. So a Tatami is uh not something you would sleep on directly, but it's kind of made out of bamboo. Like if if if you've like Google for
Just uh uh Japanese house.
No um what they have on the floor.
is uh at the tami like block, uh so little pot two, three, five
ten together, uh so it's kinda like that green floor that that that you see in many like traditional hotels or or
for photos. Uh so I made kinda like a a miniature version of that and the
Um
Newly added second floor of my room.
Uh Sebas. This was everything I was hoping it'd be.
We covered so much ground, uh you, the company, things you've learned.
feel like we could do another follow up with just as many insights and lessons and stories.
But uh other than that, two final questions.
Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out, learn more, and how can listeners be useful to you?
Perfect.
I um
Not so active on Twitter, I mostly
uh read and and uh find interesting ideas.
uh but happy to to see you there. Uh LinkedIn is another one. I know uh
Some people who are very into X and Twitter actually don't like uh LinkedIn a lot, but I think both work and and and they're both
Uh they'll both have have their place. Uh yeah, happy to connect and feel free to
Reach out, uh something that I love about the the tech industry.
Uh you can
Just
Just do things, just reach out to people and they'll probably
Helpful.
be helpful and and and help you. That has certainly been the case.
with me and I'm also happy to do that for anyone who has
Any question or wants to connect?
Amazing.
Sebas, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for hosting me. This was awesome.
Happy to it was awesome. It's my pleasure.
Bye everyone.
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