#311 James Cameron

0:00 After James Cameron's avatar made two point seven billion dollars. The director found the deepest point that exists in all of the earth's oceans. And dove to it. When Cameron reached the bottom of the Mariana Trench, He became the first person in history to descend the six point eight mile distance solo.

0:17 Since then, others have followed. Most prominently, a private equity Titan and former Naval Reserve intelligence officer, turned explorer Name Victor Vescovo. But Cameron is adamant That none have surpassed him.

0:32 Vescovo, Cameron told me. claimed that he went deeper. But you can't. So he's basically just Making shit up.

0:38 Vascovo disagrees. I have a different scientific perspective, he told me, diplomatically. But even he is a fan of Cameron's films. Like Cameron. Vescovo has made multiple dives to the wreck of the Titanic.

0:51 And while returning from one of them, he emailed Cameron. I said I watched Titanic. At the Titanic. And he actually replied.

1:00 Yeah. But I made Titanic. At the Titanic. It is perhaps illustrative of Cameron's gifts as a filmmaker that even his most determined rivals will admit that Cameron has written and directed some of the most successful films of all time. It would be fair to call him the father of the modern action movie.

1:19 Which he helped invent. With his debut, The Terminator. And then reinvent with his second Aliens. It would be accurate to add that he has directed two of the three top grossing films in history.

1:31 But he's also a scientist. A camera that he helped design served as the model for one that is currently on Mars attached to the Mars Rover. And he's an adventurer. And not in the dilettant billionaire sense. When Cameron sets out to do something,

1:47 It gets done. The man Was born with an explorer's instincts and capacity. The original Avatar required the invention of dozens of new technologies. From the cameras.

1:58 Cameron shot with. to the digital effects that he used to transform human actors into animated creatures, to the language those creatures spoke in the film. For the sequel, The Way of Water Cameron told me. He and his team started all over again.

2:13 They needed new cameras that could shoot underwater and a motion caption system that could collect separate shots from above. and below the water and then integrate them into a unified virtual image. They needed new algorithms. New AI. To translate what Cameron shot with what you see.

2:30 Nothing. would work the first time Cameron and the production tried it. Or the second. Are usually the third. Cameron showed me a single effect shot.

2:40 Numbered four oh five. That means There's been four hundred and five versions of this before it gets to me, he said. Cameron has been working on the movie since two thousand thirteen. It was due out.

2:52 Years ago. The way of water was expensive to make. If you ask James Cameron how expensive. He replies

3:01 Very fucking. But his cameron worked late into the evening day after day. Solving the infinite problems that the way of water continued to present. He seemed to be enjoying himself. I like difficult, he told me.

3:13 I'm attracted by difficult. Difficult is a fucking magnet for me. I go straight to difficult. And I think it's probably goes back to this idea. That there's a lot of smart

3:23 Really gifted. really talented filmmakers out there. That just can't do the difficult stuff. So that gives me a tactical edge. To do something nobody else has ever seen.

3:34 because the really gifted people don't fucking want to do it. Cameron and his fifth Wife. Live year round in New Zealand. Where they have owned a five thousand acre farm since two thousand eleven.

3:46 In the early days of the pandemic. Cameron and his wife gave up their home in Malibu. and became full time residents here. I asked Cameron. If it had been lonely.

3:55 Moving halfway around the world. I don't have any friends, so it's okay, he said. with only a hint of a smile. Cameron's Malibu compound. was known for its survivalist vibe.

4:06 Fast cars. A security team trained in fighting wildfires. Guns. He had himself trained. by one of the best championship shooters in America.

4:16 He's the guy that taught Keanu Reeves how to be John Wick. I was his first Hollywood contact. I trained with him for three years. And so I'm a competition grade shooter. At sixty eight years old.

4:27 Cameron wakes up at four forty five AM. And often kickboxes in the morning. Cameron is proud. To work at the biggest scale possible. Terminator two.

4:37 True lies in Titanic. Вермонд мост експенсив фільм. Ever made. At the time of their release. To date.

4:45 Oh. Have made their money back. Many of them spectacularly. Self doubt in general is

4:53 is not something Cameron has a lot of experience with. I don't think I'm hardwired with that. I don't know why. Cameron was always the type of person whose confidence preceded his achievements.

5:05 Confidence. preceded his achievements, that is an idea that you and I have discussed on multiple biographies. It's in a lot of these books. The fact that belief comes before ability.

5:15 That's the exact same idea. Cameron Was Always the type of person whose confidence Proceeded. His achievements.

5:22 It was while working as a truck driver in his twenties that Cameron decided to become a filmmaker. And so he taught himself filmmaking. He'd go to the stacks. At the library at the University of Southern California. Which was home of the vaunted filmmaking program that Cameron couldn't afford.

5:37 I'd find somebody's three hundred page dissertation on optical printing, Cameron said. And I'd be going through this and I'd think Well, I've gotta get this. So I'd pull out the staples and I'd photocopy the entire three hundred pages. And then I just kept doing the same thing.

5:53 Week after week. For about six months. And I'm driving a truck. But I had these binders. I was going through this stuff chapter in verse.

6:01 And making my own notes and all that. I basically gave myself a college education in visual effects and cinematography while I was driving a truck. The idea for the terminator So did the pivotal scene in his second film.

6:16 Aliens. Cameron has a rich dream life to this day. I have my own private streaming service that's better than any of that shit that's out there. And it runs every night for free, he said. Avatar also originally came to Cameron while he was asleep.

6:30 I woke up after dreaming of this kind of bioluminescent forest. With these trees that kind of look like fiber optic lamps. And it's a river. That was glowing bioluminescent particles. And kind of purple moss.

6:43 on the ground that lit up when you walked on it. It was all in the dream. I woke up super excited and I actually drew it. So I actually have a drawing. It saved us from about ten lawsuits.

6:53 Any successful film. There's always some freak with tinfoil under their wig. That thin beam their idea out of their head. And it turned out there were ten or eleven of them. And so I pointed at this drawing I did when I was nineteen, when I was going to Fulleton Junior College.

7:08 And said, Do you see this? You see the glowing trees? Do you see the glowing lizard that spins around that's orange? Do you see the purple moss? And everybody went away.

7:17 Zoe Saldana. who started in the first avatar and returns to the second. And who also works frequently. In the Marvel Universe. Pointed out how comparatively unique.

7:26 Cameron's approaches in modern Hollywood. The Marvel franchises are built By dozens of comic book artists and writers and directors who work together to create these stories. By contrast Avatar.

7:38 is the result of the vision of a single man. Without gyms heavy. Heavy brain. This would all fall apart. When Cameron moves, he moves fast and favors one side.

7:49 When I asked him what he'd done to give himself a limp, he looked at me curiously. I've got one short leg, he said. It doesn't slow me down any though. Cameron in his nearly forty years of filmmaking. has earned a reputation for having a temper.

8:02 Some would say he's earned this reputation several times over. On more than one Cameron set crew members. You can't scare me.

8:13 I work for Jim Cameron. Cameron is well aware of this. So I looked at it. And I was like, All right, why am I getting so upset? And what is that solving?

8:22 I'm not saying I don't get upset once in a while. I mean everybody I think is entitled to having a bad day. Whereas before it might have been once every couple of weeks. Now it's like twice a year. Cameron recalled working with Ron Howard. The famously nice director.

8:36 on the visual effects for Apollo thirteen. And I just watched what a great guy he was, and I'm like, I'm a total asshole compared to Ron Howard. I have to get in touch. with my inner Ron Howard. But despite his famous temper, Cameron has always inspired loyalty.

8:52 The process of how Cameron builds the Avatar films is complex. I asked if he knew of anyone else working this way. And he laughed. They'd be insane to even try, he said. And I don't mean that we're special.

9:03 I mean like if We hadn't made more money than any other movie in history. This is the last fucking thing that I'd want to be doing. Cameron is famous for being able to do any job on a movie set. Some say

9:15 He can do most jobs. Better than the people he employs to do them. Cameron disputes this, although. Not better than, he told me. But I'm not just some brain in a bowl.

9:26 creative type sitting over in a tent someplace saying, Yeah. Put that over there. It's a curious fact. That Cameron has directed only two feature films in the last twenty five years. This is a part of the explanation for why Cameron has at times drifted away from filmmaking.

9:40 He said. There's a certain point. Where my mind wants to solve problems that are real world problems. For a while his career in ocean exploration. Which Cameron got serious about after making Titanic.

9:52 nearly kept him away from directing a film ever again. I didn't get back into making movies for eight years, he told me. I was having too much fun. And when he did decide to return to Hollywood, With his idea for the first avatar.

10:05 Cameron's longtime studio, Fox. Almost didn't want to make it. Cameron has mellowed with time and age. But he is still a score settler. A keeper of grudges.

10:16 And this is what he said when Fox initially passed. And I said, Now just so you know, before your tail lights are out of sight, I will be on the phone Disney. Who wants this and will make a deal.

10:26 And that'll be that. And then whatever happens, happens. And you might look like a big dick if it makes a lot of money. In the end. Fox did come back.

10:34 And Cameron made avatar with the studio. But Cameron still remembers an executive at the company who will go unnamed. Because this is a really negative review. This executive approached Cameron after a pre release screening of the film. And begged the director to shorten it.

10:50 I said something that I've never said. To anybody else in the business, Cameron recalled. I said I think this movie is going to make all the fucking money. And when it does. It's going to be too late for you to love the film.

11:02 The time for you to love the movie is today. So I'm not asking you to say something that you don't feel. But just know. That I will always know. That no matter how complimentary you are about the movie in the future.

11:15 When it makes all the money. And that's exactly what I said. In caps. All the money. Not some of the money.

11:23 All the fucking money. I said. You can come back to me and compliment. The film Or chum along and say

11:30 Look what we did together. You will not. Be able to do that. And then of course The film came out.

11:37 And made all the money. I asked Cameron. Whether he had a theory about why. I don't think I need a theory, he said. I think anybody that's seen the movie knows why.

11:47 It's a fucking gigantic adventure. That's an all consuming emotional experience that leaves you wrung out by the end of the movie. And it was groundbreaking visually. And it still holds up today. So I don't think I need a theory.

12:00 After Avatar, Cameron again walked away for a while. He dove to the Mariana trench. to the deepest point on earth. And there was a period there About a year and a half where I didn't even know

12:10 If I wanted to make another avatar film. I knew how awe consuming it would be. It basically took over my life for four years. I had no other life for four years making that first film. And I thought

12:22 Do I really want to do this again? It's the highest grossing film in history. Can't I just tag that base and move on? But the problem was He still had ideas.

12:34 He knew of course Then on some level He was running out of time. When you get into your mid sixties, you start realizing that the axe could fall at any moment. Maybe it's next week.

12:44 Maybe it's in thirty years. Cameron said that in the end. The answer he landed on was this. I'm a storyteller. And there's stories to be told.

12:53 I'm not done. Until the big hook Comes out from the side. So to me

12:59 Everything. Every idea. Is a work in progress. The list of things that Cameron has failed at is short. But there are a few destinations that have eluded him.

13:10 One of them. Is space. But he's come close. He went to Daniel Golden. who was then the NASA administrator.

13:17 and overseeing the assembly of the international space station. and asked if he could go up to the American side of the ISS. They met for a summit. Golden offered Cameron A shuttle flight instead.

13:30 No ISS. But he'd see the planet from above. He would see space. Golden said the ISS at the moment was too difficult. Cameron thought about it.

13:40 He said to himself Maybe everything that I've been doing over the last few years Leads to this exact moment. When the administrator of NASA is willing to make a solid deal to fly me on the space shuttle.

13:52 But he looked at his heart and he decided no. He would only go to space on his own terms. Are you seeing a theme here? With James Cameron. We haven't even gotten to the book yet. He would only go to space on his own terms.

14:04 I said I've gotta say no. I wanna stick to my plan. Even if it can't happen. Then Columbia was lost. On february first, two thousand three, the space shuttle Columbia disintegrated, taking with it seven souls.

14:17 Cameron went to their memorial service. But he never got to go to space. I asked what level of regret he had about this, the fact that he never went. Zero, he said. Different life.

14:28 And he's been on a planet. Of his own making ever since. I was driving back to my hotel not too long after when the phone rang. It was Cameron. Wanting to talk again.

14:37 About the shuttle flight that he had turned down. I forgot the punchline to the story Cameron said. The punchline is The shuttle mission that I refused. It was the Columbia.

14:47 His voice rose. I fucking saved my own life. By choosing the higher path. Okay, so that was a super long excerpt. Not

14:55 From the book that I'm gonna talk to you about. This is from this Unbelievable. long form peace on GQ. It I will leave the link down below. It is called The Return of James Cameron.

15:06 Box office king. And it was written by Zach Barron. I read this article. Mm. completely took over my life life.

15:13 This episode that you're about to hear. I have never. ever worked on an episode longer. Than this one. This I've been in the mind and completely obsessed

15:22 with James Cameron. Starting with this Incredible. Peace and GQ. I don't even know for how many weeks.

15:30 So I I read this this piece and like Oh my God. I have to learn more about this guy. And so I immediately ordered Uh a biography on him. That biography, which I'll talk to you about today and I'm gonna go over now, it's called The Futurist, The Life and Films of James Cameron. It was written by uh Rebecca Keaton and it was produced right after uh the book's about ten or twelve years old. It was produced right after the original Avatar came out.

15:48 But what I would do is every night Uh, I'll leave the link down below. You gotta read the entire GQ article. It's it's incredible. But I would also listen to it. It's thirty six minutes long. They use this technology called autumn. And you can uh instead of reading, you can listen to the whole thing. I would fall asleep as I'm reading the b this biography of James Cameron.

16:05 Every night I would fall asleep. listening to this article again. And I probably listened to it, I don't know, ten or fifteen Times. He just unbelievably impressive with not only how he approached his

16:19 Work. But his absolute insistence on building his own world within the world. So I wanted to read the the excerpt from that article first. Because that's the order that this information on James Cameron was presented to me. I think there's gonna be a a few of these things that's gonna be repeated throughout the book.

16:35 But I think It gives you that overview is gonna give you a better introduction into Cameron. And why he is A one of one.

16:44 An unbelievably unique individual who is unapologetically extreme. That is one of the most th most important things that I learned about him and w one thing I'm gonna take away and I I I do think this guy's gonna change my and change my approach to my own work, but also reinforce it. So let me jump in because I got a ton of stuff to talk to you about. Just gonna go over a uh brief overview and introduction real quick. He's a truck driver who directed the highest grossing movie of all time. He then ditched Hollywood to spend a decade of his life exploring the deep ocean and the heights of science.

17:11 He's a tinkerer and a dreamer who pioneered tools that revolutionized the way stories are told. Technologies that a generation of filmmakers now rely upon. He spent his adulthood doing things that other people called impossible. As I watched a director work, I became curious about a man who Who seemed interested only in doing things that were hard.

17:31 And so when I got to this part, it made me think of one of my personal heroes, Edwin Land. This is exactly what he said. He says, Do some interesting science that is all your own. And if it is manifestly important and nearly impossible. It will be fulfilling and maybe even a way to get rich. That sounds a lot like Cameron's quote in the GQ article. He's like, I'm attracted to hard. Uh hard is like a magnet to me.

17:53 He says that in two thousand twenty three, and back in two thousand nine or two thousand eight when uh this book is being written, it's like hey, I This is very curious. I I started watching this man and he seemed only interested in doing things that were hard. Edwin Land was only interested in doing things that were hard. Steve Jobs was only interested in doing things that were hard. And when you choose the hard path and you you put all your effort and focus into it and you're wind up being gr like you solve the the problem, the technical problems that you have to solve.

18:20 And you actually succeed at doing the hard things, other people can't help but respect, even the people in his field. There's a multiple examples in this book. This is just the first one, where other directors who are at the top of their profession is like, No, I come to James to learn. And so we have Peter Jackson here. Uh, he's the director of the Lord of the Rings trilogy, and this is what he says. You can't help but come away from spending time with Jim feeling that you're a little bit stupid. He's got such a sharp mind.

18:42 He is formidable. This idea of Uh. Training ourselves and becoming formidable individuals is something that you and I talk about over and over again. I jumped out of my seat. When I saw that word.

18:53 In this book, he's got such a sharp mind, he's formidable. Cameron's career has been built on questioning accepted wisdom, believing in the power of the individual, his outlook. This oh my goodness, that goosebumps again. His outlook is that we can take fate in our own hands. I have to read that to you again. This is what gets me so fired up about this guy. Cameron's career has been built on questioning accepted wisdom.

19:14 Believing in the power of the individual. His outlook is that we can take fate in our own hands. Okay, so I just wanna pull out a few things from his childhood. It's obvious James Cameron was a builder and a founder. From an extremely early age. uh he winds up becoming even from like he's like a little kid him his brother

19:31 You know, they love to tinker, they love to build things, they love to experiment. They're constantly like making things like go-karts, they make rafts, they make tree houses. He's growing up in Canada before his dad um gets relocated by his job to Orange County, California. And I think one story that his mom tells in this book of like a little kid version of James Cameron, you see, oh, this is this is a founder from day one. Cameron demonstrated a knack for assembling large groups in service of his goal his own goals. When her oldest son was about ten She noticed that his younger siblings and several neighborhood children were streaming into her yard carrying scraps of wood and metal.

20:05 I said, What are you guys doing with all this junk? Jim said, We're gonna build something. And a couple hours later the kids had constructed an airplane. Guess who is sitting in it being pulled, his mom said. Cameron was very good at telling people what to do.

20:19 And so another thing to know about Cameron, I highly likely that he's got a genius level IQ. Th that's what I took away from this. His mom gets a call when I think he's in like third grade. Or uh yeah, I think it was the second grade. I was like, Oh, we're just gonna skip'em to grade three. And then

20:33 He's already skipped one grade. doesn't even get halfway through that and then he she gets another call like Oh no like we got to skip this kid again. And so it's gonna be no surprise to you, uh anybody that's intelligent, they're gonna read all the time. he started doing this at a young age, he would He was a voracious reader. And we see this with a lot of like the interesting founders. They were when they were kids.

20:52 Like think Jeff Bezos or think Elon Musk. Uh, they were obsessed with reading science fiction. So James Cameron was the same thing. Like he would just sit there and read all the time. And so he's doing that from the time he's in elementary school. By the time he gets to high school. Like he he's winning every single academic prize you could possibly win at school.

21:08 He went to becoming the president of a sci of the science club. He becomes obsessed. with history and studying ancient civilizations, which is funny'cause later on in the book he has this great line. I don't know if I'll cover it or not. But it says something like I'm an explorer by nature and I'm just a filmmaker by trade.

21:23 And then even as far back as high school we see this development Or the the the initial development of this like James is just extremely comfortable. Going his own way.

21:33 He never ever felt it. necessary to follow the herd. You see that in the way he makes his films. The fact that This guy literally gets to the top of his fresh and is like, Yeah, I'm just gonna take like an eight year break. And dive.

21:45 The ty uh the deepest part of the ocean and maybe neighbor never make a film again just because this is this is what I'm happy to be interested at this moment. Not really concerned with what other people think I should be doing. And I think this refusal to just give in to the other thoughts of other people is like a massive advantage for founders. It says the groupthink of his peers baffled him. He's in high school at this point.

22:05 First period meant singing the national anthem and saying the Lord's Prayer. In tenth grade. Grade, Cameron listened to his classmates and felt a surge of defiance. І струк ми аз трибал чан. In the middle of all this, he sat down.

22:19 Opened his book and started to read. this indifference to the opinions of other people concerning like his behavior is something that continues to this day. Uh something that changed his life when he was a little kid, he becomes uh fascinated uh by Jacques Gusteau, who was making all these like underwater documentaries. So I think even by the time he got to high school, he was already scuba cer certified.

22:38 He winds up begging his parents to let him get uh to take like a scuba class at like the local like Y M C A. And we start to see something th this idea is like hey, I want I don't just want to do scuba, I just don't want to do anything that's just like the normal way. I want the hard way. He is extremely uh intentional about building himself into a formidable individual. So he says in the scuba class he learned diving military style.

23:01 with harassment drills in which the instructor pull the instructor pulls off your mask and rips the regulator from your mouth. This harsh training engendered in Cameron a confidence. And resourcefulness. that would help him survive two near drowning experiences in his life. So James comes from a family of engineers. His dad is an engineer. His brother goes on to become an engineer.

23:23 And this is something like uh I was thinking about m my relationship with my own uh my own son. And my daughter for that matter. This is just his dad just does the right thing. Like he's like, Listen, I'm gonna back you. no matter what I personally think. And so the note I was leaving to myself, I was like going through this, it's like I really hope I

23:39 You know, my my son's still young, he's three years old. I hope I'm like this. I hope I'm a dad like this when he's older. So it says uh Cameron's relationship with his father would strain in his teenage years because his father wanted James. To become an engineer. And his dad thought it was a little weird that his son was like obsessed uh with sci fi and uh like the stuff that he was reading.

23:57 He says he didn't understand me very well because I was in art and science fiction and a lot of fantasy. However, this is what I meant about good guy dad. He would provide financial help in Cameron's hungry early years as an inspiring filmmaker. Tacitly. supporting the career choice of his son. No matter how grievous the odds was that his son would succeed, good guy dad.

24:20 And so there is a line from last week's book, last week's podcast on Walt Disney Picasso, I absolutely love. It says uh all creative individuals build on the works of their predecessors. No one creates in a vacuum. Hit it took seeing a film. another film we're like, Oh wait, I might be able to do this for a living. So it says the first time he considered a film as a career was in nineteen sixty eight.

24:40 I think he'd be around maybe fourteen or sixteen years old at the time. He goes to the movie theater and he sees Stanley Kubrick's classic film. Which is two thousand one, a space odyssey. And this is one of my favorite lines in the entire book. It was at that moment. That Cameron went

24:54 From being a fan of movies to wanting to make films himself. What does he do? Not good enough to just see the movie the first time. He goes back over and over and over again. He's studying How do how did he do this? He returned to the theater and saw the film several more times, trying to understand how Cubrick

25:08 had managed to pull this off. And right after this, his dad gets transferred to Orange County, California. And most kids, like you're in high school, you there's no way. I think i th this might even be since like senior year of high school or something like that. And most kids like, Oh, I don't want to move, like this is terrible. He he he knew that Orange County was closer to Hollywood. He already had this idea that he wanted to be a filmmaker.

25:27 And so his response Teenage Jold Jim Cameron's response. Is Very unusual. He says, Can we leave tomorrow? And so it's after high school Cameron goes to Fullerton junior college, which he which he mentioned earlier, or mentioned in the GQ article, right?

25:42 And there's a couple of things that are really important here. One, everybody. Everybody who runs into James Cameron, regardless of what point in his life, they all comment on his intensity. And so This is the first time though, he's like okay well Maybe the first step of making becoming a filmmaker is actually becoming a screenwriter. And it took just meeting the right group of friends that had similar interests.

26:01 So it says Cameron was taking fourteen credits at Fullerton College by day and then working four to six hours a night as a precision tool and die machinist. He has got a bunch of these blue blue collar jobs that he's got to work uh while he's going to college at time. And he continued to tackle his own creative project on the side. Which was writing science, fiction stories, and drawing. Jim was very intense. He was very bright and full of ideas. He was one of those guys that when you met him, you had the feeling he was gonna do things.

26:26 And so he meets a friend at the same college, this guy named Randall Frakes, and Frakes shares Cameron's passion. for science fiction, for ancient history, for exploration. And Franks is the first person is like, Hey, why don't you like you should be writing your own science fiction movies. And so he goes and gets all these scripts, like the original scripts for for very famous movies like uh Citizen Kane and Butch Cassidy and Sundance Kid.

26:48 And he's just like here, James, take a look at these like what what would What would be considered well written screenplay screenplays. And that'll like give you ideas on how to do this, and then you can just get started by doing that. And it's at this point. In Cameron's life story where it's like okay.

27:03 This is what a high agency person looks like. He's working all the time. He's l teaching himself how to write scripts in his spare time. And he's giving himself a graduate level College education.

27:15 Filmmaking education. For free, or for a couple hundred bucks. This is high agency personified in his early twenties. Cameron held a series of blue collar jobs. He'd work as a janitor, a truck driver, and a machinist. On break, so he's he's driving a truck, like a lunch truck.

27:30 for the uh the school district that he's uh l living by And on breaks. During the day when he's driving the truck, right? He curls up in his truck and starts writing s uh writing screenplays. At night after a full day, Cameron would go and hang out with friends with Louis that had that had similar interests.

27:46 They would talk passionately. About movies for hours on end. On Saturdays. That's not enough, right? This is again, this is high agency. Cameron would then go to the library at the University of Southern California. And he'd photocopy all these graduate student thesis.

28:00 On esoteric filmmaking subjects. He filled two fat binders with technical papers for the cost of a couple hundred dollars in photocopying. He essentially put himself through a graduate course. In visual effects. At the top film school in the country without ever meeting a single professor.

28:19 And so then he's like, Okay, well, how do I break into the movie industry? And he does something very smart, like this is what I do. I if I I never have been on a job interview my entire life. What if I did? Right. I wouldn't just send in a resume. I would send in some kind of demo or some kind of proof of work. And so what he does, he makes this like twelve minute

28:35 Little short film called Exogenesis. And so he takes exogenesis. to this guy named Roger Corman. Roger Corman has come up in past podcasts because he winds up uh starting like Francis Forcoppola and Martin Scorsese gives all these like legendary directors. Their first shot in life.

28:51 So Takes uh exogenesis. to Roger Corman's company. Roger Corman runs this company called New World Pictures. It's like this B movie, like kinda crappy films where they just churn out a bunch of crappy films. So they make m money in volume as as opposed to Two

29:06 uh quality, right? But it's inc incredibly important because it says Cameron was about to land exactly where he needed to be. In a Darwinian environment for would-be filmmakers, a place that rewarded smarts and scrapiness. And the kind of alpha behavior. That he had honed. Why would the Roger Corman school of film

29:22 Like why was that the perfect place? For a young enthusiastic and driven person like James Cameron is at this point in his life. And the author does a fantastic job, uh Rebecca Kingham. does a fantastic job here. She goes the most successful product of Corman's movie making factory. Had been people.

29:38 Definitely not his movies. His movies suck, right? But Why is this important? His low budget productions had launched the careers. Check this out. This is insane. Have launched the careers of Francis Four Copa. Martin Scorsese, Ron Howard. Jack Nicholson and many others in Hollywood. Why?'Cause what he does is so smart.

29:53 Corman recruit the young and the eager. He was usually the only person working at his company over the age of thirty. I was giving them training and an opportunity to make a movie that nobody else would give them. You could go from carrying light stands. to directing your first picture.

30:08 In less time. than it took to graduate from film school. So Cameron Starts He create creates this like Calling card, this demo of what he's capable of. Called exogenesis.

30:18 And that Demo gets him hired. As a model builder. He's not a screenwriter, he's not a director. Right he's a model builder, but you've already I think now

30:28 You've already gotten to know James Cameron a little bit, right? Do you think he's gonna stay a model builder? There's no way in hell this guy this guy's going to whatever the fastest path to promotion is You can be sure that the Cameron will find it. And so that's what we're about to see here. And so what we see next is that James Cameron was James Cameron before he was James Cameron. This is more high agency behavior.

30:49 He is at the bottom. Like the entry level. Bottom of the totem pole. Somebody forgot to let him know that that was the case. Cameron had only been at Corman's for a matter of days.

30:59 But he was already taking charge. Listen to this line. He seems constitutionally incapable. Of doing otherwise. He had a very commanding presence, even if his position was not running the model shop.

31:11 He clear seemed to be running the model shop. Cameron was so eager. And the production so consuming that he started sleeping at the model shop. That was where he was When Corman's assistant woke him up at three AM.

31:24 Corman had had just fired the art director of the film that they're working on. Did Cameron want to take his place? He had never been an art director and had no idea what the what was involved in the job. Sure, Cameron said.

31:36 In a matter of weeks, he had jumped from a model builder on a film. So that's another Main idea, main theme. To learn about Or learn from

31:45 Cameron, he just assumes that he can learn any job. So if you ask him, Hey, can you do this? He'll say yes, and then he'll figure out how to do it after. And we see this in the early days of company founders over and over again. The fact that There is some kind of benefit of not knowing what you don't know.

32:00 Cameron says, there wasn't time for any doubt. We didn't know the twenty seven reasons why we shouldn't be able to do exactly what we were in the process of doing. There was this blissful іgnorance. About the process of how films are really made. That allowed us to do some pretty damn extraordinary stuff. Given the time and budget restraints.

32:17 You come out of this with the feeling that you can do anything. So he's the art director and he's like, you know what Uh I don't think I should be the art director. I think I should be running this entire thing. And the way what's about to happen here is what he discovers is that your mediocrity is my opportunity.

32:33 So he's watching the director of this movie and he says he wasn't impressed. These guys had no idea what they were doing. I'm watching them just blowing it. They're not getting the shots, they're not getting their performances. It was a light bulb moment for Cameron.

32:45 I'm thinking I can do that. He cornered Corman. Right? He says hey. I think I should be the second unit director. I will work at night.

32:53 Again. Cameron made a job for himself. And again Corman encouraged the enthusiastic young man and said, That's a good idea. Start tomorrow. Because of his work on this film, he eventually uh recruited to be a director of this terrible

33:07 Terrible movie. It's called like Piranha Two or something like that. And This is really important. Okay, I you know what, let me read this to you first, and I'll read my takeaway from this. On his fifth day at work, Cameron learned that he was fired. His first opportunity to be the main director, right? He lasts five days.

33:23 Five days. Well felt like career a career ending Uh mistake, however, was actually just one beginning. The torment Cameron went through over his failed first directing effort. Would lead him Exactly where he needed to be.

33:35 into the dark recesses of his mind, for that is where he found the terminator, which is gonna be this massive hit. This is the punchline of this entire section. He was twenty seven years old. broke and depressed. Now this is the entire reason I just want to pull down one paragraph. He gets hired to direct, right? Quickly gets fired.

33:53 He finds at twenty seven years old. Broke. Depressed. feeling like a loser fifteen years from now. He will be at the very top.

34:02 The very top. Of the same. Profession. Excellence is the capacity to take paint. What if he quit here?

34:11 So The Terminator was like one of my favorite movies. Uh when I was a kid. But there's a few Uh. Entire chapters, like the chapters are separated, uh, in this book on like what film he's working in. So there's like unbelievable degree

34:23 of detail. So if you're really into some of these films. uh reading the chapters I would I would highly recommend. But there's just a few things about the terminator that I want to pull up because I think they're interesting and and more widely applicable, just not just to filmmaking. But The aspect the first thing before you you how you can pitch a film, right, you have to write the script.

34:42 Cameron. was not did not feel like he was a naturally gifted writer. Uh he write this is the first time he talks about this, but he talks about this his whole life. He finds writing to be torture. But he does it anyways. And I think that's the biggest lesson here. Uh, Cameron found

34:55 Writing a lonely and utterly unforgiving process. It is very hard for me to get started and it is very hard for me to stay focused, he said. When he's writing He tends to bunker himself in. Working mainly at night.

35:08 And we're drawing from the outside world. He used to tell friends. that he'd like to buy the most uncomfortable chair he could find for writing, so he would finish as fast as possible just to get out of it. And so he writes this and then he goes around and tries to find f convince a studio to make the movie. There's just one paragraph here. Great projects can happen in bad economies. When they're trying to raise money.

35:28 For the terminator. This is nineteen eighty two. Unemployment's at ten percent and interest rates are at seventeen percent. And they still managed to get the deal done. And it's good that they convinced people to finance the movie because the f the movie only d terminator, the original Terminator, right? It only costs six million dollars. It winds up making seventy eight million on a six million dollar investment.

35:47 And we see that James Cameron actually has a lot in common with the Terminator. He has a terminator like work ethic. He is doing the rewrite, he's rewriting the terminator script to get ready f to film the movie. Right. So he's already written once, he's doing the rewriting. Then he also gets a job. He's no he has no money at the time.

36:04 So you gotta take every opportunity. He gets a job to write the sequel to Aliens. And I think it's a sequel to Rambo. the the the movies uh with Sylvester Sallone.

36:14 Listen to how he does it. This is what I mean that he has a tur terminator like work here, I think. This is wild. Uh that meant in a three month period in nineteen eighty three, he had to write three scripts. Cameron approached this dilemma. As a terminator might. He decided that each script would be a hundred and twenty pages for a total of Page count of three hundred sixty.

36:31 He divided This is so wild. He divided. The total number of waking hours he had during the three month period by three hundred and sixty. And figured out how many pages per hour he had to write. And I just wrote that many pages per hour, he said.

36:47 And so it's all while he's working on the pre production for determining you're getting ready to shoot the movie. he winds up meeting um another like high quality person. They wanted becoming partners. Uh this guy named Stan Winston. And so this is James describing the partnership. Stan and I clicked early on because we both respect the artist, and he saw one in me, and vice versa. And

37:06 We are both a little crazy. and enjoy each other's eccentricities. The work that he did for Cameron in subsequent films would earn Winston three. of his four Academy Awards and would lead to their co founding A visual effects company called Digital Domain in nineteen ninety three.

37:22 If you study the career of George Lucas, I covered him all the way back on episode thirty five. I'm gonna reread that book and and do an episode on it again in the future. But this is something that Lucas and and uh Cameron have in common. is they were constantly had ideas on how visual effects and and things they wanted to do in their films that they couldn't figure out how to do. So their solution

37:41 Way's a little insane. They're like, Oh well, I'll just found my own Special effects company. So Lucas famously founded in Industrial Light and Magic. Cameron's gonna wind up being a a customer of theirs. And then James does the same thing when he founds Digital Remain with Stan Winston in nineteen ninety three.

37:56 And so once the production on terminator begins We see something that was echoed in the the the GQ piece, the fact that people call anybody that works with James, they call him the do it yourself. they they all say that he likes being extremely hands on. And then I've seen him speak in other interviews. uh'cause I watched a bunch of his inter interviews. He's like, listen, this is the only way that I can work. It's the way I want to work.

38:16 Cameron established a hands on working style that he would Take to an extreme in later films. Camera would be holding the camera. Editing the footage, mixing the sound. Performing almost every technical and artistic task on the film himself except acting.

38:29 Cameron can do almost anything there is to do in a movie set. as well as any specialist and he knows it. So the financial success of Terminator opens up every opportunity that Cameron's gonna have after this. He's gonna be able to pick and choose what movies he makes as he continues to have financial success with his films.

38:46 He eventually is able to wrestle over complete control. He's got final cut. He gets to choose like eventually his whole thing is he's obsessed with controlling all aspects of his work. Before he's able to maneuver himself into a position of complete control, though, he still has to work and he's still young. I think he's like thirty two, maybe at this time. This is the first time that he actually interacts with s with people. that don't love their work. So He is doing production on the sequel to the very successful movie called Alien.

39:13 He the sequel to Alien that he does is called Aliens. And so this is the the the contrast between somebody like James who loves his work being forced to work with other people who just tolerate theirs. They do not love what they do. They just tolerate it. Production on aliens took place at Pinewood Studios, which is in London.

39:31 The emplo employees at Pinewood were lifers. Locals who viewed their film jobs As they might factory work. A paycheck and nothing more. I was shocked to be working with people who simply could not care less about the film they were working on, says Cameron.

39:46 The Pinewood crew. We're lazy. Insolent and arrogant. I despise them. And so they're both approaching this with vastly different perspectives. At the time, there was a sense that you don't get to the top of your profession through talent.

39:59 You get there by paying your dues and putting in your time. To the Pinewood veterans. Cameron at thirty one years old. was an undeserving kid. And so something that Steve Jobs just said previously.

40:09 that he observed that A players only like working with other A players. We see that here. When he finally rapped at Pinewood. Cameron stood up to address them. This has been a long and difficult shoot, fraught by many problems. But the one thing that kept me going through it all.

40:24 Was the certain knowledge that one day I would drive out of this gate and never come back. And that you sorry bastards. Would still be here. He never did return.

40:36 So if you're able to see all my notes that I have in this book I have these like main themes that I keep writing down. 'Cause they just keep reappearing and then I when I went back and started thinking about like what I wanted to talk to you about I would continue to add to them. And so one main idea, one main theme in James Cam uh the life and career of James Cameron. Is that he's just willing to let ideas marinate for decades.

40:56 uh in many cases, you know, he can't figure out how to make what he wants to do, or he has an idea and he doesn't get to actually make that idea in like twenty five years. In this case There's nineteen years between this idea and the execution. Water and its mysteries would be an abiding source of fascination and creative stimulation for Cameron throughout his life. One that would inspire him to make

41:15 His most grueling and personal movie. This movie called The Abyss. The Abyss began А за шорт сторік Карон рот він і ви с тінь. When he was devouring Jacques Cousteau's underwater TV documentaries. And so this is something that he's gonna work on for his entire life. He loves

41:31 shooting in water. For the precise reason That nobody else Likes shooting. In water. Let me quote Edwin Land again.

41:40 Don't do anything. That someone else can do. Hard the harder something is The less competit competition They're actually B. I think this is something I see a lot of like entrepreneurs like struggle with. It's like they try to look for like the easy way. I was like no

41:52 That's the exact wrong thing you should be doing. You should be trying to avoid competition at all times. And if something's easy. There's gonna be way more people trying to do it. James is like, No, I'm only going after hard because I will I will literally Be the only person out there doing this. I will be the only person standing. I will be a one of one. There will be no competition. While making avatar, he was also at work. on an engineering project, designing and building a one man sphere.

42:13 to dive to the Mariana Trench. There's a fantastic documentary. Uh about this. That shows like all all of the engineering that went into designing this this sphere that he used, the sphere. That he used to get to the deepest part.

42:26 In the world's oceans. And he had that idea because he watched this doc uh this this video the last time humans had gone to the the very bottom of the Marion Trench be true before James Cameron did it was all the way back in nineteen sixty. But this sentence tells a lot about his personality and his approach to work. That no one else had bothered to try again in fifty years. Did not deter Cameron.

42:47 It makes the journey irresistible to him. I like doing things I know others can't, he says. That's part of what attracts him to shooting movies in water. Nobody likes shooting in water, he says. It's physically taxing, і's frustrating, і's dangerous. Бо у тему азиа.

43:06 That are good at it. There's deep satisfaction in both the process of doing it. And the resulting footage. So this idea about I'm constantly attracted to heart. I wanna do things other people aren't doing.

43:18 What is that actually like what does hard look like in this case? Like the The Abyss is a movie that's gonna be made in I think nineteen eighty nine. Right. So he's trying to figure out a couple of years before the movie comes out. Okay, well where how am I gonna do this? Where am I gonna shoot it, right? So they're going and scouting all over Amer uh locations all over America. And they they're scouting out one thing and they see something kind of weird in the distance. And says in the distance, Jim could see something really intriguing. It was a giant concrete bulk.

43:42 From afar it looks something It looked a little like the Roman Coliseum. So he goes over to it. He's like, What the hell is this thing? It's like uh essentially like a an abandoned construction project. What they were trying to make would have been a nuclear reactor's containment vessel. It was only half finished.

43:57 And it was two hundred and fifty two hundred and forty feet in diameter. with eighty foot tall walls and no entrance. So he parks next to this thing, he's like, Okay, I wanna check check I wanna look at this thing. What is it? Well, how are you going to look at something? that is has eighty foot walls surrounding it and no entrance.

44:13 He's like, Oh, there's a construction crane right here. the crane that they were using to assemble it was also abandoned. So what does Cameron do? He goes and starts climbing up on the hundred and ten foot crane. It is raining and there's a ton of wind when he's doing this. And he decides this is exactly where this is the set. This is where I'm gonna film the abyss.

44:30 This is what hard looks like. This is what he means like he's attracted to hard. It would involve pouring thousands of yards of structural concrete. Installing enormous filtration systems. And a row of twenty thousand heaters to warm. The seven point five million gallons to a comfortable temperature.

44:46 What they were planning wasn't just the largest underwater set ever built. It was a feat of industrial engineering. And so the crazy thing is you just built the world's Largest underwater set, movie set ever made. He matches this unbelievable

45:03 initial accompl accomplishment. With this insane work ethic and dedication. I think they call him a few pages later. What is the word? They call him like a maniac. I think that's the he's they call him a possessed maniac.

45:14 Listen to this paragraph. Remember, they're filming underwater. At the end of the day, Cameron had to hang ten feet under the surface for an hour to adjust to the pressure difference. Never want to waste time, Cameron asked the crew to install a monitor in the control room underwater. Remember all everything about this car to is happening underwater.

45:31 Never want to waste time Cameron Esther Crutch install a monitor in the control room so he could watch his dailies. Through the acrylic. Window. While suspended online. When his neck was sore from his giant helmet. So he's got this helmet that has all this like communication stuff in it, right?

45:45 He hung upside down. And had the crew invert the monitor. It's like hanging upside down like a bat underwater. He asked to patch phone calls. From the studio through

45:55 To his helmet. So he could talk to Fox executives while he decompressed. Under water. After a draining out eighteen hour day. The few lingering casting crew members heading home.

46:06 Would stop and take one last look in the viewing room. Window at their director, clinging to the line like a bat on a branch and still at work. I was stunned. By Jim's allegiance to the project. And the extent of his physical abilities.

46:20 Jim was there for every minute of it. It was beyond belief his commitment to what we were doing. Another main theme in the life of James Cameron is the the important and magical power of compounding. So present day he's been a filmmaker for over forty years. Where we were in the story though. He's, you know, only a handful of years into

46:39 uh his career as a filmmaker. the reason I I talk about the c the compounding nature of Cameron's uh career that kinda jumps out when you study him. is he starts experimenting with CGI with computer graphics. All the way back in nineteen eighty eight. The reason I'm bringing this up is'cause this is when he starts working with George Lucas's company, Industrial Light Mag Magic.

46:56 And it said industrial light light magic assured Cameron that they could do it. It would take the company nine months. This is nineteen eighty eight, okay? It would take the company nine months to deliver twenty shots. Amazing when you consider that twenty years later on Avatar Cameron's crew would produce more than two thousand shots in the same time period.

47:13 Each of them many orders of magnitude more complex. So in nineteen eighty eight, takes tw nine months to make twenty shots. Twenty years later. They can do two thousand. And I think twenty years after that, it was like twenty thousand or or maybe even more in that same time period. There is a massive benefit in getting to find your life's work as fast as possible.

47:33 And then once you're there, just stay in it. All the benefits, all the future technology. All of that's gonna compound and accrue to the people that don't quit. And the thing is most people quit. is another example of that. So now he's Almost ten years into uh his movie career.

47:48 And this is incredible. The existing norms of the movie industry at this point in time, right, are going to be Temporarily ignored. Two. The benefit of James Cameron and Arnold Schwarzenegger.

47:59 So remember Terminator. I think costs let's say six million dollars, six point eight, something like that. uh to make so six million dollars made seventy eight million dollars in revenue. And so now this company goes and buys a few years later, they pay ten million dollars just for the rights.

48:15 Right, just for the rights to make Terminator two. James Cameron's thirty five years old this time. The this temporary suspension of like the normal economics of the industry that he happens to be operating in. is going to benefit him and Arnold. This is what I mean by that.

48:29 Carol Coe Pictures. It's this independent production company. And they call James Cameron. And they're like, Hey, we just bought the rights for Terminator Two. We want you to direct write and direct the film.

48:41 And Cameron was not sure that he wanted to do a sequel. And they're like, Okay, we'll pay you six million dollars. And so it says they offer me a lot of money, Cameron says. Six million dollars to be exact. It turns out I can be bought. So

48:54 That is in nineteen eighty nine. So it's you know, be like double that or maybe even triple that today. For a thirty five year old director. Now that was hilarious. winds up, you know, becoming one of the most expensive. I think the budget they have on this movie's like a hundred million dollars. But Listen to how

49:08 What they did for Arnold. So they give James six million dollars. You know how they convinced Arnold to do the movie? These guys gave Arnold a twelve million dollar Gulf Stream jet to close the deal. That's incredible. And so while I'm reading about how they're making Terminator Two, I stumbled across this like little piece of Fun history fact, right? So think about

49:28 One of the most well known uh software programs of all time is Photoshop. Well, the crazy thing I discovered in this book Is that an early version of what eventually becomes the first version of what will eventually become the commercial product Photoshop? Is actually

49:42 Y the first thing they use it for is to solve a technical problem that James Cameron is having On Terminator two, this is around nineteen ninety, I think this is when it's happening. Some of the things that Cameron wanted the T one thousand terminator to do was a stretch for industrial light and magic. When the computerized character extended into certain poses, giant black gases appeared in his shoulders. The ILM industrial light and magic team. Pulled it off, thanks in part to a cool new piece of software invented by a twenty-something person working there named John Noel and his brother Thomas.

50:13 A grad student at the University of Michigan that that software Happened to be the very first version of Photoshop. still a few years away from becoming the industry standard Graphics editing. program.

50:28 That's incredible. I went and looked, um, and I think the developers wind up selling uh the rights to Photoshop a few years later for I think thirty five million dollars. There is something that appears in the book multiple times I haven't covered yet. I think you already know this, but He has uh excessively high standards. He's very difficult to work with. This kind of reminded me, there's one of my favorite lines in that uh when I was reading that

50:50 chapter on Walt Disney and Picasso last week. Was that Walt Disney put excellence before any other consideration? I think James is uh would that applies to James as well. And so it's talks about like they had to get this movie made quickly. Um but

51:03 that didn't have any effect on Jame Cam James Cameron's level of perfectionalism. Uh, he would he's known for doing this on multiple things like the so he shoots a take. And then he has like a catchphrase like he would repeat over and over again. And so he says. He would either he'd alternate between these two, which is hilarious.

51:19 That's exactly what I didn't want. Or the other one. Perfect. Let's do it again. And it says it chafed. The T two crew.

51:27 Some of whom started wearing shirts that said Terminator three. Not with me. And that dedication to just making the best thing you can possibly could pays off in the end. Quality will always make you more money is another line I think from the The Walt Disney uh book that I covered last week, or the Walt Disney essay, rather. So

51:44 What's fascinating is I think they pay they cost like a hundred million to make the movie makes something like five hundred million dollars. And so this crazy he keep his his movies keep having these fantastic financial outcomes. And this is what Allows him. to get to what he really wants. Wha what what James Cameron really wants and what most of the history's great founders want, they want the same thing. They want ownership and they want control. And so you know, I'm reading about James

52:06 Right, uh James Cameron, I could easily be reading about James Dyson. or George Lucas. And so it says in the spring of nineteen ninety two, Cameron signed an unusual five hundred million dollar multi picture domestic distribution deal with Fox. They gave him power to put any movie he wanted into production without Fox's approval. up to a budget of seventy million dollars and

52:24 he retained ownership of his own films. This deal gave Cameron both more control And more responsibility than a director typically enjoys. This is what he said, and this is what inspired him to do so. I had just made Terminator two for Carol Co Studios and I admired how they rolled. being their own bosses. Mavericks and entrepreneurs. I admired how they rolled, being their own bosses, mavericks and entrepreneurs, Cameron says. I've been fed up with the studio system.

52:49 After aliens and abyss. both of which I felt were not released properly. I could now set up a structure which would allow me to call the shots myself. And so after he signs this next deal, the next the thing he does the following year is he founds his own special effects company. I just love this idea. It's like uh James Cameron knows that there is a revolution in computer generated special effects happening. And that one, he wants to play a role, and two

53:12 In order to play that role, in order to do so, he decides hey the the the correct move here is to start my own to found my own special effects company. Cameron wanted to be part of the digital revolution and special effects. I wanted to make sure that as a filmmaker I was always ahead of the wave and not behind it. To do so.

53:27 He felt he would need a lab of his own. He was thinking of founding his own special effects company, which they're gonna call Digital Domain. This is how they get the funding for it. Uh, they raised fifteen million dollars from IBM, which took a fifty percent stake in the company. and provided much of the hardware to get it started.

53:42 Digital domain wasn't a hard sell. The guys behind Terminator Two and Jurassic Park. were as promising a team to back in a nascent Remember this is a very early days. in the nascent digital effects industry as existed. And then just one more thing I want to pull off from this section, which I think is a good idea. Go all in on where you believe the future is, regardless of where it currently is.

54:03 The company's first bold move would be to wholly embrace digital compositing and not even bother to open an optical department. It was a risky decision at the time. Most of Hollywood was still relying on optics. They thought that was gonna that that wasn't gonna be the case in the future. So they just skipped that part. They went directly to the future. Just go right to the future, I guess, is the way to think about what he's doing here. But setting up digital domain that way gave the company an almost instantaneous

54:28 advantage over the established effects houses. And then there's another theme that appears over and over again in the career of James Cameron that I want to point out to you. He's just got intense focus. And so it's like Mute the world. And then build your own world.

54:43 Cameron knows a lot about a lot of subjects. He can talk about energy policy. He can talk about helicopter engines. He could talk about the Punic Wars, but one of his rare blind spots is Hollywood gossip. He does not give a damn. what is going on inside of his own industry. This is not a man who watches

55:00 E. And so what um they're talking about is he he I think this is on true lies. He winds up wanting to hire Tom Arnold and he didn't know anything about like the back there was like some controversy around Tom Arnold So he gets this phone call from a Fox executive and they're like, What the hell are you doing? Like they're just so mystified by

55:16 th his choice of casting. Remember, he has control, so he can do whatever he he gets to choose the actors that he wants to work with. And so they ask him, they're like, Don't you read the papers, don't you watch T V. And Cameron confessed that No. He did not.

55:28 And so a short while later we hear from his long term attorney and he's like Listen, James is not a guy that I would call and say let's do lunch. Cameron rarely lunches or parties and applies none of his laser beam focus. To the Hollywood power struggles. Jim doesn't call me up and say, What does Spielberg make? Which some of my other clients do.

55:47 He does not think in those terms. And so the note I have on my page is like this is this uh really like a bullet point. My bullet point like model of James Cameron. Up until my reading up up until the point of the book is like He likes to focus.

56:01 He likes to work. He is not motivated motivated primarily by money. Very much like Walt Disney, excellence count came first, right? financial considerations or if it's gonna make him money, he's trying to build something great. And with the trust that if he builds something great he'll make money. But he th building something great

56:18 was something that Walt Disney and and Cameron put first. And then the last note was that he's just got an inner clock. He's got an inner scorecard. J he just wants to focus on the work that he's doing. He's not concerned with p p pulling his head up and looking around like what what do other directors think or what is everybody else in the industry doing? It's irrelevant to him. And you see this in how he picks his movies. He's trying to figure out like what am I gonna work on next? after uh true lies and he this is where he decides to do Titanic, which w at the time becomes you know the most suc finite successful movie of all time.

56:48 Uh what movie he makes next next is decided intuitively. Based on themes that interest him at the moment. And what new technical or dramatic territories he wants to explore. I had a lot of diet doubts about doing Titanic, he says. Could it be done? I wasn't sure. Could the deep dive filming be done? I don't know.

57:05 Could we create the technology? I don't know. Would anyone want to see it? While he was ruminating on what to do next, he received a fax. From this other guy, this this explorer named S Sagovich. And so he's reading Savovic's thoughts. And I love this idea'cause I I I find this to be true as well.

57:21 when I listen to podcasts or when I read books, that just one line can change everything. And so he's reading this uh this facts and it says in s it is sometimes necessary in life to do something extraordinary. In Cameron's mind that line seemed to gr to glow on the page. Yes, I realize. Sometimes you have to do something extraordinary.

57:39 Something crazy. And this is the line I mentioned earlier, I am an explorer at heart and a filmmaker by trade. And so he looked at creating Titanic, making the movie not as I'm making a film, I'm going on an exploration, I'm going on an odyssey. And then he has this great thing where Uh one of the reasons he wanted to do the film because he's been fantasizing about diving down to the wreck.

57:59 I think it would cost I think it was like six million dollars or something like that to to develop the technology to do it safe. And then I think he went down, you know maybe a dozen times, maybe even more. And what he realized, he's like, Well, really, we should charge my expedition to the Titanic as a marketing expense in the fi and the studio's like, What are you talking about? And this is actually a genius way To gain attention for the film.

58:20 And so Cameron says, Well, the expedition should be charged to the marketing budget because it's gonna attract way more publicity than just trotting out the actors and sending them around for on the talk show circuit. There's this great line in uh Michael Jordan's autobiography, which I cover back on episode two thirteen. Where he says I focus on the little things. The little things add up to big things. And Cameron did this entire career.

58:41 He you you see it in in the Titanic, he was a stickler for getting the the actual historical details. as accurate as possible. There was a degree of obsession in Cameron's dedication to the little details from the ship stationary. down to the white star line stamped ashtrays he has always been a stickler. for the little things. After I put out that episode on Bernard and all

59:01 I heard from stories from people that listen to the podcast that He's this way too. the most minute details in the stores. The businesses that he runs, the hotels, the restaurants that he owns. He focuses on the large picture, the strategy, but he also pays attention to the most minute detail that it would be some of the stories I've heard would just shock you if I could repeat them.

59:20 And they came to mind when I'm reading this section. It's like oh well, this is what Michael Jordan, top of his profession, Bernard O'Neill, top of his profession, James Cameron, top of his profession. Obsessed with the details, little things. Add up to big things. Let's go back to this idea that was in that piece by Chi Q. That I that jumped out at me.

59:37 Right, where it's like James is the type of person whose confidence preceded his achievements. It's so important. to truly believe in what you're doing, to have like superhum levels of confidence because sometimes you have people on your own team. Trying to talk you out of it.

59:51 He's doing Titanic, right? Titanic, this is before Titanic comes out, is going to be the most financially successful film. And he's got people on his own team. On twentieth century Fox. Uh, one of the presidents there. comes to James and is trying to like instill doubts into James's mind. This is crazy and this is a

1:00:09 If you listen to the early episodes of Founders, I'd have this segment'cause it should pop up so much so many times where I called it Critics Don't Know Shit. And what I meant by that is like these just biographies are just full of people confident. in why what you were doing just won't work. And so we see that here. Twentieth Century Fox president uh Bill McCannic. uh told Cameron that the film would never see a dime of profit.

1:00:27 He uh suggested that Cameron should not only surrender all his points, meaning his profits on Titanic. But give back half of his points on the next film he did with Fox. This conversation happened in Cameron's living room. Mechanics counteroff did not go over well. Get the fuck out of my house.

1:00:44 Cameron replied. And I need to make the point that that level of confidence, like sometimes it has to be externalized even when It's not you actually don't feel it at the time inside. Because this is coming towards the end of the filming, so they're The the production, like the actual shooting of Titanic is is wrapping up, right? But then he's gotta figure out to edit it.

1:01:02 It is one of the lowest points of Uh James's life. He's like, just kill me now. But you still have the strength or the belief in what you're doing, even though you feel like shit. to make sure that you don't give in to the doubts of other people.

1:01:15 He was exhausted and drained. He had enough footage for a four hour movie. And was wildly over budget and had been told there was zero possibility that the film could make any money. His moving Was the laughing stock of Hollywood критиcs don't No

1:01:29 Shit. The media was attacking him and ridiculing him daily. The Hollywood media, the media that he has a right to ignore, is making fun of him. Because they think this is gonna be like another water world. Like this.

1:01:41 This bust. You spent all this money. Remember, it's about to make more money. Than anything else. And this is what was happening. Right right before it's darkest before the dawn. This is great line, um, the founder of Vans, the you know shoe company.

1:01:54 He says uh opportunity is a strange beast. It commonly appears after a loss. I don't know why that came to mind. When I got to this point, but this is what I was thinking of. He had enough uh footage for a four hour movie, was wildly over budget and had been told there was zero possibility of the film Could make money. His movie was The Laughing Stock of Hollywood and the media was

1:02:11 ridiculing him, attacking him daily. I thought to myself, Lord take me now He had finished one impossible task, only to face another, but that was tomorrow. And then right after this was just this funny interaction he had with uh Fox's CO, Rupert Murdoch. In the middle of this terminal, the director ran into the news corporation chairman and CO, Rupert Murdoch, at the studio.

1:02:31 I guess I'm not your favorite person at the moment, Cameron said to the media barren. But the movie is going to be good, he promised. It better be better than good, Murdoch told him. And so what happens, Titanic winds up being number one for sixteen straight weeks. And makes Almost two billion dollars.

1:02:48 The almost makes two million dollars for the movie. And this is why he's so interesting. He is bent on doing what he wants to do, when he wants to do it, and maintaining absolute control uh what would be the apex. Of his powers. As a director, Cameron would step away from feature filmmaking altogether.

1:03:04 After Titanic, Cameron took to calling himself the world's busiest Unemployed filmmaker. I've got my fuck you money and I can kind of step away for a while. So As you can already tell from his interviews. From this book.

1:03:17 Uh if you watch a bunch of video like video interviews of him too, that is by far his favorite word. These are his words, right? This is what he how he talks. I got my fuck you money. And I can kinda step away for a while. My career's not going anywhere and I can do all the cool stuff that I've wanted to do now. And so what does he do when he wants to get away from all the pressure? He does what this this is the weirdest thing, the uh surprising thing to me. It's like uh I just did a Tiger Woods biography on episode three and one. Tiger Wood said the exact same thing that James did.

1:03:44 He like the only place he could get away from the pressure was by diving deep into the ocean. It's just Surprising thing they had in common. For Cameron, peace is found under the ocean. After finishing a movie, he says I usually go diving first to decompress by literally decompressing.

1:03:58 I find the underwater world to be a great anecdote to Hollywood. Nobody knows Nobody down there knows who you are. That's exactly what Tiger Woods said. And then James uh adds another level to this, you are just part of the food chain. And so for the next eight years, he just dedicates himself to to becoming an explorer, which is what he always wanted to be. In fact, there was a little like uh historical anecdote.

1:04:21 Where um James Cameron is actually underwater at the site of the Titanic. on nine eleven. And so they come to the top. I think he's with another person. I can't remember.

1:04:32 And they get to the top and the boat, um and they thought it was like gonna be like a cause for celebration. And they get to the top and everybody's like sullen and depressed and like what's going on? And that's when he found out that nine eleven had just happened. And so he's looking back and trying to explain like why he did this at this point in his life. And he says, Where are the twenty first century's Magellans? More important, where was the spirit of discovery in the regular citizen? Who had once watched the moon landing and been filled with wonder and a sense of possibility.

1:04:59 Exploration is not a luxury. It defines us as a civilization. By two thousand five, Cameron had devoted seven of his midlife years, potentially a director's most productive. to the discovery of new places and new technology. Rather than to making movies.

1:05:15 And so eventually he resurfaces, literally. And he's like, All right, I'm gonna make Avatar. And this is what I meant. I was like one of the most impressive things about him is that the f the idea that he'll just let ideas Simmer. for decades. He may not know how to do it, but he just he keeps

1:05:28 He says s there's another line in the book uh earlier on where he's like, Oh I'll I'll run out of time before I run out of ideas. So it says at this point Cameron hadn't released a feature film in over a decade. He had been largely absent from the Hollywood scene. uh writing in his submarines, filming his documentaries, and tinkering and building new filmmaking toys. The director wrote his first treatment for Avatar twelve years before.

1:05:47 This is twelve years before he actually starts working on it. Uh, the only problem with making the movie in nineteen ninety six was that it was impossible. The technology did not exist. Again, we see this over and over again. I know what I want to do. I just don't know how to do it.

1:05:59 Yet. And then he comments on this idea that he just doesn't let ideas die. He doesn't let them go to waste. Cameron jokes that he's like a plains Indian who wastes no piece of the buffalo. In his case, it is his ideas that are made of use. Down to the marrow, sometimes decades later. He started creating some of the images in Avatar in the nineteen seventies. That's what he was mentioning in the piece where he had these drawings. And all these people come out after the avatar is widely successful. Like you stole the idea from me. It's like, Oh yeah? Look at this. Dated.

1:06:25 I wrote this when I was nineteen. I had been processing this in my imagination for Decades. That is an incredible statement. And so all the way back when he's founding his uh special effects uh company Digital Domain. I think this is nineteen ninety two, the year before he founds the company. He writes this thing called uh Digital Manifesto. It's like a twelve page, almost like a white paper.

1:06:44 outlining like why he's starting Digital Remain and what he thinks is gonna happen. And really Not to focus on the specifically what's happening at the book. What is the idea behind what's happening in the book? And what the idea that's happening behind the book to me is like

1:06:57 What is obvious to you in your industry? That won't be obvious to other people for a decade. This was obvious to him a decade before it was obvious to anybody else. Cameron had written a digital manifesto, a passionately argued thirteen page document. laying out where he expected filmmaking to go in the coming years.

1:07:13 In his manifesto, he describes something called performance capture. What he's calling performance capture is now known as motion capture, and that's what you see in avatar. Uh, performance capture in which an actor would don a data suit, sending a stream of information about the actor's physical movements to a workstation. Remember, this is 1992. Uh, where it'd be inserted into a synthetic environment. Artists would then use software to turn the actor's digitized performance into a fantastical character.

1:07:38 Cameron was rubbing elbows with the brightest minds and special effects at that point. So back in nineteen ninety two, okay. And this is the stuff they were talking about. It all seemed pretty obvious from where we were sitting, he says. To most of Hollywood though, the p possibilities of lifelike CG characters Driven by human performances wouldn't be obvious for at least another decade. as fast here and think about like what is obvious to you in your industry that will not be obvious.

1:08:02 to other people in that industry for a decade. And can you start working on these things now? And the last chapter in the book is all about the building of Avatar. This is another main theme in the life and career of James Cameron. The fact that he said he feels every idea is a work in progress, he is attracted to hard. I love this line. It says a crew member wrote

1:08:21 uh a set catchphrase on the whiteboard. It's avatar, dude. Nothing works the first time. And another cool thing about James Cameron is he's all positive some. Uh I love when these like people at the top of professions interact with each other, whether it's historical analogy or something that's taken place in recent

1:08:37 Uh history. This is where I mentioned earlier how uh you know he's willing to to share everything he learns Peter Jackson and Steven Spiber wind up spending a week using Cameron's equipment, visiting working with his crew, visiting the production.

1:08:50 And it says he was helping us get our heads around the equipment. Jim is very generous in the way he shares knowledge and information. He doesn't jealously guard technology and secrets. And then you fast forward like another, you know, decade after this book ends. And that's part of the reason that Cameron moved to New Zealand because he uses Jackson's special effects company. he was using it to build uh to on avatar.

1:09:11 He's gonna use them for I think Avatar three and Avatar Four two. It's called Weta. And it's actually uh headquartered in New Zealand, very close to where Cameron lives. And finally, in one of the last pages of the book, there is a sentence that I think is the perfect way to end this conversation, this podcast. this time together. That gives you a great indication of James

1:09:30 Cameron the person and how he approaches his work. James Cameron put on a blue baseball cap. With the letters H M. F

1:09:39 I see Printed on it. It stood for Head motherfucker in charge. And that is where I'll leave it.

1:09:47 I am going to leave the link down uh below for this book. If you buy it, you'll be supporting the podcast at the same time. I'm also going to leave the link down for the GQ article. At the top of the GQ article, you'll see they'll have audio controls in case you want to listen to it. It's excellent. They did an excellent job on it. Like I said, I've I I was listening to it. every night as I went to sleep, as I was working my way through the book and thinking about this podcast. So Hope you check out both the GQ article and this book.

1:10:11 Absolutely fantastic. Another thing that I hope you check out is if you get on my personal email list, so I will go through I don't know, I probably have seventy five highlights of this book. What I'll go through and this takes an unbelievable amount of time. is I will go through and try to find like the ten

1:10:26 f like my ten favorite sentences in the book. It's like ten bullet points that I want to remember from the book. I if you want to get on the list. The link is down below. The second thing that I hope you check out.

1:10:37 Which a lot more people are checking out now. Founders AMA. It is for if you are a fanatic, if you are an enthusiast of founders, it is a way to go deeper. Here's what founders AMA is. It is a private podcast feed. Where If you sign up, you get access to a private email address.

1:10:53 I read every single one of these email addresses, right? This is where you send in a question. If you you have a question I read the question, I t I answer it in a form of short AMA episodes. I think I've done twenty eight or twenty nine up until this point. You can listen to them immediately. So that's one thing you can listen to all the Amy up episodes. you can email me a question which you'll know that I'll read. And include it in your question if you want to let other peop other listeners of Founders AMA know.

1:11:17 what you're working on, you can include your name and your link to your website and I include that in the question. So it's a great way to kind of check out what other people that listen to this are working on as well. That link, this is all optional. You don't have to do it. You can just listen to the regular founders episodes. There's you know, three hundred and ten over there. Um, but if you are an enthusiast and if you are a fanatic and a maniac like like I am.

1:11:35 uh and you want to go deeper, this is a great way to do that. That link is down below and available at founderspodcast.com. That is three hundred and eleven books down. One thousand ago. And I'll talk to you again.

What you see above is a preview of the first minutes. One unlock costs 10 credits and covers this episode forever: full segment and word-level timestamps on this page, plus .txt, .srt, .vtt and word-level JSON downloads, as many times as you like.