#128 Ryan Holiday: A Stoic Life

0:00 What I love about stoicism, what gets me excited about it, is that All of the stoics. We active elite professionals at whatever they did. And f stoicism was a guiding force, a thing that

0:13 Allowed them to do that. To me what I love about stoicism is that it's very much philosophy for the world. I mean it's literally founded One by a merchant who loses everything in a shipwreck, but Um and two, it's founded

0:26 In the Athenian agora, like in the center. Of Athens In the marketplace. Where it's battling from day one. Limited.

0:36 attention from busy people who have Actual lives. Welcome to the Knowledge Project Podcast. I'm your host, Shane Parrish. This podcast sharpens your mind by helping you master the best of what other people have already figured out. If you're listening to this, you're missing out.

1:08 If you'd like special member only episodes, access before anyone else, transcripts, and other member only content, you can join at fs.blog Slash membership. Check out the show notes for a link. Ryan Holliday is here today. Ryan is a prolific author in modern philosopher. His books include The Obstacle Is The Way, The Daily Stoic, and most recently Courage is Calling.

1:34 I wanted to talk to Ryan not only to learn more about stoicism and deepen my understanding, but to also learn more about his process for writing and reading. We talk about how he writes a book a year, how stoicism can help us make better decisions, the value of journaling, and the four virtues courage, self-control, temperance, and justice. It's time to listen and learn. Let's start with your book writing process. You're prolific, man. You do like a book a year. How do you do that? What's your process for writing? What does that look like? Take us inside and behind the scenes. It's weird, um, because obviously I sort of know objectively that I'm prolific and people tell me that I'm prolific, but to me

2:19 I am more curious that other people are not so prolific. I mean I realize that different authors do different kinds of books. But I I do feel like If this is the job and you're waking up and doing it every day, it does seem to me that like more published work for people should come out of the other side. And but I am kind of amazed, I maybe it's because writing is a creative pr profession that people don't

2:45 treat like uh professional sports or you know, trading or anything where it's just sort of excuse like because people think it's hard and they don't understand how it works. They're just a really tolerant of sort of spotty output. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

3:02 The biggest part of my process and is probably uh boring and unsexy, but it's like I show up and write every single day. And if you show up and write every single day Pages come out of the other side of that. There's a couple parts of my process that are integral to the output that I have, which is one

3:21 I always have the next idea. uh set before I finish uh the one that I'm on. So there's not this sort of like existential angst about like what I do next. Again, likening It to sports like

3:36 They know the season starts at the same time every year. And that there's always another year unless you retire. So it's not like Should we get a league together this year? You know, like should we play this year? It's like I know I've got the next project. And there's usually a a contractual obligation slash like deadline.

3:56 for that project. So that That keeps me really honest. I'm I'm also always Like reading and so the reading is creating the material which is then setting up the next book. So I kinda have this

4:09 system that is just in motion all the time and I'm like a part of it. When do you read? Like do you read in the afternoon? Do you write in the mornings? Are you always writing at the same time for the same length of time? Like how how regimented is that? If you'd asked me before Covid, I would have said like I read a lot on airplanes and in hotel rooms. Like I tended to I wouldn't do anything but like read when I was traveling. And that's where that's where I made

4:38 Up a lot of it. And then when COVID happened and now it was like, oh, actually you have to integrate this a little bit more into your regular life. Um, it's it's been a bit different. And I wouldn't say it was a struggle. Obviously, early on in the pandemic, I got tons of reading in because there was like nothing but time. I would say I've I've like lately I've been trying to figure it out a bit more, I've been kind of out of a rhythm, which I guess would be another point, which is like for me

5:03 I am just generally more of a binge reader than a like I do two hundred pages a day or something. Like If I'm like Finding awesome books in a row, I might be banging them out like that. And if I'm like You know, you pick up a book and you're like, This is okay and I know I want to read this But like

5:22 It's It's a a bit of a chore, then that can like grind the whole thing. And if you get a couple of those in a row. Suddenly you're like, Am I good at reading anymore? You know? Um Yeah. A couple

5:34 big parts of my reading routines. I read while I eat every day like while I eat lunch, I'll read for like forty five minutes or what an hour. So I read then. I usually do read in the afternoon and then uh I I read uh before bed and then on the weekends I tend to To read. Wh so when do you write? Do you write in the mornings? Are you writing for the same period of time every day? Is it like two hours? Is it ninety minutes? Is it Yeah, all almost always the morning, although like I'm in the middle of the launch on this new book and so my routine's a bit exploded. Um but like my thing is I really don't schedule anything in my calendar Like we're doing this at eleven central. This is like the first thing in my calendar.

6:11 And usually I I'll do uh tend to do a little bit later. I want the mornings free. So Probably You know, from eight thirty to like eleven. Uh eleven thirty is like loosely writing time

6:25 So that might be like thinking about the writing, that might be reviewing some writing, might be going through note cards, or it's just Uninterrupted Like sitting down writing. But that's Th I make a big distinction between like Book writing.

6:40 and other forms of writing that I do. By that I don't mean like writing ema to people, but like if I'm editing uh a book for someone or or for myself, I can do that later in the day. I can you know, write newsletters or blog posts. I can do

6:57 those kinds of writing, but I I feel like Book writing demands a level of concentration and focus. And frankly, energy that you only have when you are fresh at the beginning of the day. Talk to me a little bit about schedules and how saying yes creates like

7:15 It just disrupts your flow, right? So like even this meeting, we got one meeting today. You and I were both talking about this before we came on. It's like it's the only thing we have today that's sort of booked, but we you wake up and you think about it and there's this like hidden tax to it. Yeah, well, I mean my whole day is centered now around this because like so so when I look at my calendar, like some people are sort of very scheduled. For me, if the calendar is empty then I'm spending that time writing, reading, thinking about like my creative work. That doesn't get scheduled. That's the default.

7:49 So if there's something in the calendar then suddenly everything else I'm doing pivots around the existence of this thing. It really highlights to me the cost of saying yes to stuff. Because It I'm r it's very clear to me that like, oh, because I said yes.

8:07 To this thing. Instead of thinking I got all day To focus on this. In three and a half hours I have a fifteen minute catch up call. With some, you know, person that I

8:18 could really be accomplished in an email. So I I really I really try not to say yes to stuff and and I think it was helpful for me Somebody told me uh you know, everything you say yes to is saying no to something else. I have this uh Performance coach, uh, Jonathan Fader. He's a doctor, but he's worked with a a bunch of authors and he worked with um the the New York Giants and the New York Mets, uh among others. But anyways, uh I was talking to him about this a couple years ago

8:46 And uh she sent me this picture, and it's a picture of Oliver Sachs in his office, and he's on this like old uh landline phone. But behind Oliver Sacks he has this giant sign. uh that just says N O in capital letters exclamation point. As a reminder to say no to stuff. He gave that to me as a reminder of of the the importance of saying no.

9:10 And and his analogy, which I think I talk about in Stillness is the key. He was talking about like uh for a baseball player You're you're really defined by the pitches that you don't swing at. So I I just try to remember that like Uh I have to say no, the vast majority of the time. And it creates this weird like all of your success in terms of selling millions of books creates this weird sort of paradox where it's almost like the seeds of success plant the seeds of destruction, right? Because all the more obligations come in, more more questions, you get more inbound, you have to learn to say no.

9:43 more and more, otherwise it's gonna prevent you from doing the very thing that made you successful in the first place. Yeah, yeah, the irony of success is that there are infinitely more distractions from that success. Um and as you get more successful, the higher The uh price or bribe attached to those things is, right? So early on it was like, hey, do you want to do a lot of this free stuff? And it was like, well, no. And then now it's like, do you want to say no to insert large amount of money

10:16 uh to not do this thing and and you that's that's really tough. Like'cause you think about it, it's like let's say you get an offer To give uh a speech. the the amount that you're being offered to do the thing, consult on the project, give a speech. Whatever, right? That is a tangible amount of money. As soon as the offer comes in

10:35 That money is real to me. So it's not that it's not that like I'm not earning what I didn't think About two seconds ago. It's now it feels like I'm taking that money and lighting it on fire. Even though I never had it, I'm I'm costing myself that. Even though again Yeah it's lost subversion, right? Like you feel like it's yours. Totally. Even though you know, three seconds ago you weren't like I need this, I'm hoping that it comes in. What I try to think about now is uh an easy uh more difficult thing to

11:05 to demonstrate which is opportunity cost, right? So I also got paid a certain amount to do the book that I'm working on. And if that book is successful, I will earn More because of that, right? To say nothing of legacy, what I actually care about, what's important, et cetera. So I I try to

11:23 go okay, but what is one hour of dedicated work On the book. Or one dedicated hour on this or that or a day if the thing takes longer, right? I also accepted money to do that thing, and I'm sort of you know robbing from Peter to pay Paul, so to speak. So I think we're really bad at comprehending, especially in the moment, opportunity costs, but they are always there. And everything that you say yes to means you are saying no to something else because you can't do everything. There's always an opportunity cost to everything you do. as well as transaction costs, right?

11:56 And uh I think we we struggle with that. And and one of the opportunity costs that we don't really see is when we say yes and we do a half ass job Like that creates its own sort of problems down the line. Well, of course. Yeah. So let's say I'm continually saying yes to a bunch of stuff. On the first book. There's a five percent

12:14 You know, decrease in quality. And then the next book, there's a 10% decrease in quality. And the next one, there's a 15% dec now I've significantly fallen off. It was imperceptible. To mi at the time. But the audience is feeling it, the market is feeling it, the editor is feeling it. And soon enough you won't you won't get the opportunity to do that anymore.

12:36 And I think we're really bad at calculating that. You mentioned legacy. How do you w what do you want your legacy to be and how do you measure sort of success for you? I don't I I don't think that much about legacy. I guess I just mean like At the end of the day, what has more impact? A talk to fifteen people.

12:54 At a hedge fund. Or making the book five percent better or something, right? So yeah, I I guess I was just meaning more like where does the energy w where is the best return on on your investment as far as time. I go back and forth to sort of not caring about it at all and then um having some sort of like wanting to be the best at what I do.

13:16 Not so much in relation to other people, but just like I want to be great at what I do. I do think about legacy in terms of like Am I fulfilling my potential? That's interesting to me, as opposed to Like where do I rank?

13:31 against other people because one, I think it matters what timeline you're measuring these things on. And then it also One of the interesting things about writing Is that Everyone's kind of playing a different game.

13:46 Right, like It I write about an obscure school of ancient philosophy for the most part. It would not just be torturous, but like Unfair. to compare myself to somebody writing

13:59 A book that sells a lot more copies, but about a much easier, more accessible topic. They're just totally different races. And they require different strategies. If you're like, Well, you know, this sprinter finished much faster than you, and you're like, Yeah, but I ran four hundred meters. I mean, they're like, of course. Like they did a fourth of the distance that I did. So you gotta figure out like who your peers are.

14:23 And you may not have it. Well, I th it it's also like going to an internal scorecard, right? So I think you sort of hit on the way that I think about this, which is relative to your potential and what you're capable of, are you getting better than you were yesterday? Are you constantly improving? Are you are you delivering on that potential? Because everybody starts with this sort of like different trajectory and yours might be higher than mine. But what I really want to what I care about as an adult, as a person, is sort of like how do I maximize what I'm capable of? within this environment within these constraints.

14:56 No, that's that's totally right. Yeah, we're not it's not like basketball. We're all playing the same game with the it's an infinite game versus a finite game or something, right? Like it's it's it it's just Anything that's possible, any uh way of doing it is possible, and so much of it is outside of your control in terms of like Is it at the right moment? Is the are you ahead of your time? Are you behind your time? So so to be to to judge your success. comparative to other people in this profession. І just a recipe for complete misery.

15:27 I wrote this book several years ago about Peter Thiel called Conspiracy, which was like my first stab at what you would call Actually first and only so far, stab at what you would call narrative nonfiction. It was an interesting experience in that one, I think it's one of the best things that I've done. It was certainly the hardest thing that I've done in that it was way outside my comfort zone and my style and not like any of my other books. But I had this really weird experience with it where It sold probably the fewest copies of any of my books. It wasn't a failure, just if you're ranking the books, it's like

16:01 Dear the bottom. But it got the most critical success. And then also like split my audience, right? Like some of the people were like, it's your best book. And then some of the people were like, I don't even care about this. I'm not gonna read it. Point being It really helped me decouple all of those things from each other and realize that they're not particularly related.

16:23 You can write your best book. And it could sell the fewest amount of copies. you could get the most critical reception and it could uh it could sell the fewest amount of copies. All you should really focus on is like, are you proud of it? Did you do What you set out to do with it.

16:39 Now obviously if it had sold zero copies And been torn apart as wildly inaccurate, or, you know, if I like embarrassed myself in the sense that I like failed at what I was trying to do as well. I I'm not saying that all success is relative.

16:56 Uh but It it was helpful to me to realize that A lot of these variables that we kind of put in one bucket up here. are actually sort of located more on a scatter plot.

17:08 And uh you gotta pick your which one it really matters to you. Let's talk about what you've been writing about for both the ever since I've met you. I think we've known each other, what, seven, eight years now. So let's talk about stoicism a little bit. What is stoicism? It's a philosophy that originates in ancient Athens. makes its way to Rome over the next several centuries. And becomes I think the most interesting and practical of the ancient philosophies. Like when

17:35 I I'm I'm sure when people hear ancient philosophy they go That's really interesting intellectually. But of very little use to me as uh insert whatever it is that you do. What I love about stoicism, what gets me excited about it, is that. All of the stoics We're

17:53 Like active elite professionals at whatever they did. And stoicism was a guiding force, a thing that allowed them to do that. and guided the decisions they made inside that field. But it wasn't

18:07 You know, they weren't Diogenes the Cynic or A Buddhist monk. Uh or or or anyone whose pursuit of a philosophy or a set of ideas took them away from the world.

18:21 To me what I love about stoicism is that it's very much philosophy for the world. I mean it's literally founded One by a merchant who loses everything in a shipwreck. Um and two, it's founded In the Athenian agora, like in the center.

18:35 Of Athens. In the marketplace. where it's battling for Like from day one. Limited.

18:43 attention from busy people who have Actualiz. What are the key sort of like teachings of stoicism that everybody should know? So Epictetus, who's a a slave, uh becomes a philosopher. He says like the primary the first task

19:01 of stoicism. He says, is this exercise called the dichotomy of control? It's the distinction between what's up to us and what's not up to us. Any energy spent on stuff not up to us is wasted. And that what we primarily control are our thoughts.

19:16 Our opinions Our actions, our beliefs. So I think Then the next thing that the Stoics build on top of this idea of the dichotomy of control is We don't control what happens.

19:28 But we control how we respond. And then Marcus Relius building on that says Look. Uh The

19:36 Everything that happens is an opportunity to practice virtue. So my first book, The Obstacles The Way, is about this. specific stoic teaching that Stuff happens. Stuff that's out of our control or You know, we make a mistake with something that's in our control.

19:50 And then What we do with that is an opportunity to practice excellence in some form or another. So I I feel like the stoic is sort of embracing both their powerfulness and their powerlessness at the same time and sort of fusing it together.

20:07 Into this Real understanding of where we have agency, where we don't. And what are we gonna do with that agency? And speaking of stoicism, Seneca sort of like said that he had this line, which is like, I shall never be ashamed of citing a bad author if the line is good. I love that. Yes. Which is like a way to learn from you can learn something from everybody. It doesn't make them a good or bad person. There's no judgment implied, but that you know that maybe they had this moment that is like, Oh, I can use that as

20:34 in my repository, my mind, my mental repository of things that I could do. Uh, and it could be a good or bad person, but it seems like society today just sort of like wants to chuck out people because they they have this blemish. What do you think of that? I think that's totally right. I mean, there's lots of good lessons that come from bad people. Um, and they're not always cautionary tales, right? Like

20:56 Uh a lot of people are sort of tragically gifted and flawed at the same time. I think this is a thing that people struggle with, like Um, history is uncomfortable. And it is inherently built around not just like human beings which are flawed. But usually historical characters, as I was saying, are by definition

21:17 Um more ambitious, more more everything, or like they would have been an unremarkable forgettable part of history. Right. So so like Churchill, who I'm fascinated with and write about quite a bit, Churchill's virtues are incredible. But they correspond with equally enlarged vices. And that's what made him Churchill. Just like

21:40 You know, you look at I don't know, someone in the contemporary world like Elon Musk. Elon Musk wouldn't be Elon Musk. If uh you know he wasn't all these good things. Um

21:50 But he'd also be considerably less well known. He'd be like uh one of the forgettable billionaires on the forge list if he didn't also have these corresponding habits, right? And so I I I am very much of the school that we can learn uh from anyone. We can cite bad authors. I mean The the proof of what Seneca's talking about, I'm always uh

22:12 This has always influenced me. Um, from my earliest days of of reading Seneca is like In Seneca's letters and his book Letters of a Stoic is is one of the incredible sort of works of ancient literature, um The philosopher that he quotes most as a stoic Is Epicurus.

22:29 Right, he he's not just saying like hey, I'll occasionally cite someone I disagree with. The primary source of the philosophy that he talks about in this book. is someone he is vehemently in in disagreement with on almost all issues. And in some cases he's quoting

22:46 uh where he agrees with uh Epicurus, and in other cases he's saying where he disagrees. with Epicurus oh. What I think the lesson there is he is intimately familiar with the works. of all the schools, including the ones he disagrees with. Well, it it it sort of goes back to that sort of concept of like if you're gonna have an opinion, you have to be able to argue the other side of it better.

23:09 then the other person can argue it, right? You have to you have to be able to walk around the problem in this three dimensional way, which means you have to understand other people's perspective into that. Yeah, and I think you've talked about it, but the the first person I've I heard it from was actually Peter Thiel when I was writing Conspiracy, but he talked about Steel Man, like the the instead of, you know, reducing your opponent's argument to a straw man, um, this sort of caricature, the least uh you know, uh charitable interpretation of what they think and why You know, actually really put yourself in their shoes. Try to argue it as as well as possible. Usually not only will you find that there's some validity to what they're saying

23:49 But it will make your argument stronger. Because you will have preemptively addressed uh the strongest parts of their argument. So I think people are often afraid to do that and it's why they they sort of understand intuitively there is some validity to what the other people are saying. And their fear of it makes them

24:10 you know, unwilling to wrestle with that. So they reduce it to this like preposterous character. Let's go back to one thing that we had sort of said about people and sort of being uh having equal strengths and vices. I I think there's an inter We talked about this, I think a long time ago at dinner one night, which was We we couldn't Yeah.

24:28 At the time we couldn't think of any examples of anybody who was extraordinary and well balanced. Right. Everybody had this corresponding sort of like offset. Like uh, you know, Tiger Woods and his vices and like anybody who achieved this uh far right tail success. was not anybody that you would hold up and be like I they live a balanced, healthy sort of lifestyle. Yeah, it's like who what what American president would you actually want to be? Right, like like not like oh it they've done cool things, but like you have to like live inside their head.

25:06 And I think this is true for For billionaires this is true for Професіонал атліт. It's often like some sort of hole or some sort of wound is partly what drives A person into the public sphere to begin with.

25:20 And it's also, I think It it's it's why it can be adaptive early on. Is like Okay, look. Um if Elon Musk was balanced

25:29 Um he probably would have been happy. And satisfied with PayPal. Right? Like she made tens of millions of dollars. He changed not just the technological landscape, but he changed how money changes hands between people. Um

25:44 That's enough, right? Like that in and of its if I was just like, Oh, meet this guy, Elon. He's the founder of PayPal. You've heard of PayPal, right? You'd be like, wow, that's so cool. Um But he's like not remotely satisfied with that, right? And then if Michael Jordan was easily satisfied. You know, his high school career would have been enough.

26:03 And then his college career would have been enough. And then the first championship would have been enough. So Inherently the insatiability Is the key differentiator in a lot of high performers. And I think there's a Stefan Zwag quote where he says like

26:19 Never before has a conqueror been surfeited by conquest, meaning like No conqueror was ever like I won and now I'm good. Right? Like that's enough. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. There never is enough. That's what made them who they were. So I think that's part of it.

26:36 But as I've worked on this in my own life and had a bit more experience. I do find that like There's a survivorship bias that we Don't think about so

26:47 You know, you think about Michael Jordan, you think about Kanye West, you think about Elon Musk. Think about Winston Churchill or whatever. Um One because historically the moment maybe a line for that person.

27:00 And that will never happen again. Or They not only were really talented and driven and ambitious, they also had some insatiable desire for Public adulation or attention.

27:12 But like There's a lot of people who won two championships with Michael Jordan that we don't think about. And so I think we often forget that the people we've heard of

27:24 More often than not. Not only wanted us to hear of them, they needed us to hear of them. And the slightly more balanced people. Like I don't know, Tom Hanks one of the greatest actors of all time.

27:36 She doesn't seem as tortured as Daniel Day Lewis, you know. Um And it and it may be that um, you know, because he's not as tortured He doesn't get covered for being tortured. and sort of slides under the radar a little bit. Yeah. I I I I think there's there's a couple of different themes to pull out of this. One is like we see parts of people's lives we don't see their whole life, and it gets magnified by social media, and then we we feel like, Oh, I want that attribute, and I think it was Naval who said something along the lines of like

28:06 Never feel jealous of anybody else unless you're willing to trade your entire life for their life. And you're just seeing this one little sliver of their life. So make sure you see all these other things that go on. Sure. And sort of the the the other theme there is like, what goes into sort of a balanced, healthy life? Like what are we gonna think when we're ninety about the life that we lived? Like I I used to work with this guy who who ended up retiring and you know, before he retired, everybody wanted to play golf with him, everybody wanted to talk to him. The minute he retired, nobody wanted to talk to him at all. He's just dead to everybody, right? And the the reason is like he was the boss. So everybody everybody's sort of like, you can help me do something and while you're the boss, I'm gonna do that. But then

28:49 He he sort of came to this realization a few years later that like the way that he became the boss. was mutually exclusive. From sort of like developing sustainable, long lasting relationships with people. And so it was only too late that he recognized this. And I wonder if there's part of us that are like, it's too, you know, we're gonna be eighty and be like, man, I wish I would have worked out more. I wish I would have ate healthier. I wish I would've spent more time with my kids. I wish I would have, you know. Not done this some of the stuff that I'm I'm doing now, or I wish I would have taken all my relationships and just thought of them as like

29:23 You know. This this person is gonna be my life for thirty years and that'll change how I act, right? Like You and I have been friends for I don't know, eight years now. And like I know you're gonna be in my life in twelve years and that changes our relationship in a way, right? Like it it sort of nudges it it it pulls us towards better behavior. Yeah, there was a uh interview I read

29:45 Is it Michael Chabin or But anyways, the the the novelist. And he was saying that early on in his career, um, he before he had kids uh some like sort of grizzled old uh novelist, like I don't know, a Hemingway type, uh said something like, You know, every kid you have is a novel you won't write. And that really hit him and then he ended up having kids anyway. And in retrospect, he's like, I would take that trade.

30:10 Like every day. Right? And so uh I think one of the things uh that you realize is that The professional

30:20 First off, the professional success is not nearly as unprecedented or special as you think it is. Um it's more ephemeral than you think it is. But like when you really think about The things that it often comes at the expense of It's only in retrospect that you're like, Oh, that was a bad trade.

30:41 And so for me, like when I when sometimes people ask me what my goals are and I've always Like sort of my three goals are um I want to be a great writer. I want to have a great marriage. And then I want to be a great father. And so those three goals

30:56 Have to be In constant relationality to each other. Um Because Certainly you can be better at one

31:06 At the expense of the other Oh. But they really only matter if they are done In concert with each other. And you know, if if you told me that hey, I was a great father, but like I gave up all my potential as a writer

31:22 Now look. If if I had no choice, of course I would accept that. But I there would be regret and pain in that, right? Because uh I would have felt like I was rejecting a gift that I have. Now if you told me if you could like actually show me like Ryan Your books would be twenty five percent better. You'd be more famous.

31:41 You'd have made more money. But you have to undo the kids that you have. Like you like your kids cost you that. I'd be like, Okay, cool. Instead of having like really concrete career goals. I think more about

31:55 sustainability like I want to do it over a long period of time. And I wanna do it not at the expense of these other two things that are important to me. I I I think that what you're really getting at is sort of like uh the harmony between those things, right? Like it's not a balance. It doesn't imply like giving and taking, but it's like this constant sort of repositioning based on what the needs are at the time and sort of like not not necessarily sacrificing everything else, but You know, the kids are in school, so you can work.

32:22 Right, but when the kids aren't in school, maybe it's like oh I'm gonna work less because I wanna be with them and sort of I I I think that when you start thinking about life that way, it it sort of changes how you view things. Yeah, and and I think about it um in terms of like well what do I need then to Do all these things. So like Let's say I'm younger, I can sort of white knuckle it. I don't have to have the same level of habits. I can be more inconsistent. Um maybe I I don't have to invest or spend. to like set up like

32:54 But as I've had kids it's like oh okay, like if I wanna keep doing it, now I do It's like an athlete getting older has to spend more time doing recovery work. uh because like their body can't handle it. And I think like as you take on other responsibilities, your priorities in your life you have to figure out how to co uh how to

33:13 adjust for that to continue to perform at an elite level. Yeah. And you you almost certainly can't just do it on raw willpower or talent alone anymore. It requires a team, it requires an environment, it requires a routine, you know, it requires all those things. So I've I feel like I've As I've had kids

33:33 And then in pursuit of this balance. I've had to professionalise more. And even like in my marriage, it's like Oh, like I can't just be consumed. with what I'm working on all the time. Work can't be the default mode. It has to be like when I'm at work, I'm at work. You know, I I you have to

33:51 You have to professionalize and Systematize uh if you want to sustain it over a period of time. I was actually reading the new Um biography about the New England Patriots, the it's better to be feared.

34:05 It's like an incredible book. And actually one of the things that I never thought about it this way I sort of saw Tom Brady leaving the Patriots as part of His insatiable desire to win. To be in control.

34:18 Same as Kevin Durant leaving uh the Warriors to go to the the Nets. But reading this book, it was it it actually uh Seth the the author. uh hint explains that he he views it more in the light of Tom Brady's wife and kids being like You have to be a regular person. Like he it was basically like the New England system.

34:40 was not sustainable for a forty three year old, you know, uh This isn't sustainable like from a work life balance perspective. And also like what good is all your success? If it still makes you unhappy and unable to function as a well adjusted person in the in your life. And so part of he he sort of phrases it as part of the transition was like Yes, I want to keep winning.

35:08 But I also just actually love playing football. And I want to go play football the last couple years. Somewhere where it's fun. And it's integrated into my life in a way that doesn't make me

35:21 a a miserable wreck all the time. Uh and I don't think this is so much an indictment of the Patriot system, so much as like there's a time and season for different phases. of an athlete's development and like Again, being a twenty two year old N N FL quarterback. who's not won anything is very different than

35:41 All the championships that he'd won and he's now forty three. And the other the other point that you mentioned a while ago is sort of longevity, which I think is often something where we have to pay a cost today to get longevity, but we don't want to pay that cost. An example is sort of like eating healthy might be difficult for you. It it's not for you personally, but like Uh exercising, right? So exercising might be an hour a day cost, but it's going to improve the odds that you can do what you do longer. And if you look at the best sort of like professional athletes, their entire life, like Tom Brady's life, is organized around playing football as long as you possibly can. And whatever support staff that needs from like a personal chef to sort of his personal trainer and all of this being involved in his life. Like he looks at that as like this is enabling me to do what I do. I need to work out every day. I need to stretch. I need to uh get a massage. I I need my life organized in a way that's maximizing that. And and he's also looking at it from longevity, right? So there's a daily cost to this stuff where you might be able to maximize your sort of like immediate value by writing twice as fast, burning yourself out.

36:48 You know, killing your marriage, not seeing your kids, and you get these immediate rewards. And we often sort of like I feel like we have this conversation with ourselves and and w we say, Oh, I'm gonna do it until I reach this point and then I'm gonna quit, right? Like I'm just gonna do it for this book. But like as you said, your that appetite is sort of never fulfilled. And you can never walk away and then you sort of end up burning out and flaming out, which limits your you know, where you reach your potential and limits what you're capable of doing.

37:16 I I worked on this book, and I know you had him on the podcast with Chris Bosch, and um one of the things I was asking him about for Letters of a Young Athlete,'cause I'd heard that LeBron James, you know, spends something like a million and a half dollars a year on his body. Like trainers, massages. uh medical treatments, et cetera. And he was like, Oh yeah, it was crazy. You know, the rest of us were like we're young

37:38 We don't care. We wanna we wanna play video games on the plane and he's like doing yoga or he's Taking I know he was he was always doing and Here he is still playing and the rest of the big three is not in the league anymore. A certain amount of that is luck, like Obviously, you know, Tom Brady has the benefit of not getting hit.

37:56 Uh to the degree that other quarterbacks have or No real catastrophic injuries, but the investment uh in the body and sustainability is is like really huge. I've got to imagine like if you're Steph Curry, having a father who is a professional athlete Helps you understand

38:15 This is like y you you come from a lineage of people who've done this before. Most of the time though, you're a first generation at whatever you do, especially at like the elite level. So it's it's hard to like really pick up these sort of pro habits. uh whether it's investing or hiring

38:34 or scaling or shortcuts or you know, taking care of yourself. But like these you have to figure these things out. Because like the real cost is not money. It's in how many years. of being able to do this it cumulatively deprives you of

38:52 Let let's switch gears a little bit'cause I want to get into some more meaty questions here. Uh what do you know about making decisions that most people miss? I do tend to find We often Spend too much time thinking about the decision.

39:05 Uh, instead of just fucking making it. and dealing with the consequences of it. So I there's a story I tell about George Marshall where he goes, Don't fight the problem, decide the problem. So I tend to find in my thing like I'm a big believer in momentum. And I'm a big believer in crossing things off the list. So sometimes this costs me'cause I'll be hastier than I should have been.

39:27 But like What'll be frustrating to me, especially if someone I work for would be like, I'll bring something up and be like, Hey You know, you have to decide whether we're doing this or this, right? And then like Three days later Three months later.

39:40 I'll check in on it and they'll be like, Oh, I'm still thinking about it. It's like Okay, but you just cost us three months of not Having it Either way. And whatever the margin of error would be between one decision or the other

39:53 Is far smaller than whatever the opportunity costs of not having it done. And moved on to the next Thing are.

40:01 Totally. Do you do you want to go a little deeper on that in terms of like momentum and how that works for you and and how you think about that in the context of decision making? Well, so as a writer, for instance, I'm all about momentum. So every day, like I told you about how I sort of work on books, but I'm I break each thing up into smaller pieces. And so I wanna have the sense that I'm crossing things off, that I'm making forward progress. Let's say um I have a bunch of chapters I have to write for this section.

40:28 Now There's one section that I kind of knew what I wanted to do. And another section That I could do it this way, I could do it this way, I don't really have the right example.

40:39 Am I gonna do the hard one first or the easier one first? In this case I'm gonna do the easier one first. Because stalling out is the main thing that I want to avoid. It's not that I'm going towards where the path of least resistance, but I'm going towards where I'm going to make forward progress.

40:58 And so I like to do things in order, for instance. I like to do them according to plan. But if you're telling me that I'm starting to get damned up over here. I'm gonna pivot And maybe I will flash forward and like The book that I'm working on now, which is about self discipline, I didn't have enough material to write the main chapter for the second part of the book.

41:19 But I did know all the subsequent chapters I was gonna write in the book. So I started with the subsequent chapters, and then only last week did I circle back to put in the main thing. So Instead of stalling out Going like I can't write until I do all this stuff.

41:37 I wanted to have the four momentum while I was working on the other stuff. So I I I'm a just a big believer in momentum in that sense. Going back to stoicism a little bit, how do we learn to accept the things we can't control? I mean you don't really have any choice, I guess. Like we have to go, Well I can't accept this and it's like Well, does not accepting it mean that it didn't happen? So what we're really talking about is like

41:59 The stoics, um They use this word assent. Not like ascent up a mountain, but A S E N T. And it just means like you're acknowledging that it happened. You're like giving it permission to have happened.

42:13 So when we're talking about well, I can't accept things that are outside my control. You have accepted them. They have happened. You had no choice. Like no amount of objecting undoes them. What we're really talking about is like Whether mentally you're okay acknowledging that they happened. Or

42:29 that you're at peace with the fact that they happened. And so if we think about it like that, I do think it becomes a little easier. What about like sort of the people that focus continuously on I'm thinking like the way the world should work versus the way the world does work? Yeah. Uh this is like a important part of stoicism too because If you have high standards

42:52 Um, it's very easy to expect other people to live up to those standards. And invariably they do not, right? I think we struggle with acceptance because it feels like you are saying that because it happened It's like

43:08 Good that it happened. Or that it should have happened. Right. When really I think what the Stoics are saying is like Excepting that it that it's a fact on the ground. Does not lessen your obligation

43:21 to prevent it from happening in the future. Or It does not mean Uh that That it was okay. Like that it was

43:29 It wa it wasn't immoral or unjust that it happened. Solinsky the ac the activist says like uh you know The social organizer has to start with the world as it is. For what it is. if they want to change it. I think the problem with a lot of idealistic people, particularly people who are interested in

43:48 social change or social justice is that their preoccupation with how they want things to be puts them at odds with how they are and actually makes it much less likely

44:00 that you'll be able to do anything with it. Like Like I'm fascinated with ancient philosophy. If you told me I could write uh books that are

44:09 much headier and go off into the weeds. Um because uh everyone was well versed in the basis of philosophy and we could have these really high level discussions about it. That would be cool with me. I mean, I would probably prefer that.

44:24 But the reality is most people are not interested in philosophy. And so Um, if I want to speak to them about philosophy. I have to meet them where they are and write. And communicate accordingly. It'd be great if everyone spoke this language, but they speak this language. So talking to them in the language of your choice.

44:43 isn't going to communicate what it is that you feel needs to be communicated. It is what it is. Th there's this great quote by Joseph Tussman that comes to mind that I've actually never been able to verify, but I've seen a couple times now, which is like what the pupil must learn if he learns anything at all is that the world will do most of the work for you. provided you cooperate with it by identifying how it works and align with those realities. If you

45:08 Do not. let the world teach us, then it teaches us a lesson. It's sort of like are you going with the grain or are you going against the grain, right? Can you find can you find a way to make the current work for you as opposed to against you? I think a lot of times We create

45:26 Headwinds. Unnecessarily by either being too ambitious. And this this also goes to the point of momentum. I think you're seeing this politically in the US right now. Um Even though Biden has like the Pianist.

45:37 of legislative uh Majorities. like the progressives in the Democratic Party are trying to pass this like pretty aggressive, like transformative. Social change

45:49 And as a result, they're accomplishing like nothing. They're pushing their advantage to her. Yeah, and and to the to the to the point of not having an advantage. Like Whereas it had they started small and racked up a number of legislative gains, they would not only have Momentum. But would probably be in a stronger position coming up to uh the midterm elections. And I think

46:13 Robert Caro does a pretty amazing job of this. uh studying the the transformation of Lyndon Johnson, particularly as it pertains to civil rights. You know, Johnson passes Uh the first civil rights bill in like a hundred years. That's mostly symbolic.

46:28 That does next to nothing. Basically the only I think part of it that had any teeth was that Um It took uh civil rights cases out of uh juries.

46:38 Which was sort of a styming point that the South would use because they could just use jury nullification to protect any uh any governmental abuses of like voting rights and Stuff like this. So he he's he's sort of he's like, Well, what's like the key issue here? Like what is the the main impediment to even the slightest bit of momentum. Let's just focus on that. So It looked like a relatively toothless uh legislative package.

47:05 But it actually had this one key part in it that sets up the next civil rights adjustments. And And you know, Kennedy Um, who's much more idealistic than Johnson. a a much better speaker. Probably much more committed, frankly.

47:20 to civil rights, you know, does a lot of great talk. And has a better idea of how things should go. But but in his brief presidency uh isn't able to make any progress and so You you have to wonder if your

47:35 uh in your unwillingness to accept reality is actually perpetuating The very reality that you seek uh to change. Going on to the next sort of topic, how can we learn to manage our anger? I was thinking about this with a a a course that we made for Daily Stoic. I was saying that like

47:53 Just because you don't have an anger problem Doesn't mean that anger's not a problem for you. Right. Like when I look at most of the mistakes that I made, most of the things that I regret. Most of the things that I wish I could undo.

48:09 Usually anger is Uh Pretty big part of that. Right, like anger was a driving factor in why I wrote the email and sent it. Right? It was why I

48:22 uh chose not to do X, Y, or Z. You know, it's why I was speaking this way or that way. So I think You know, the the question about anger is like does it actually make you better at what you do? It it may in the short term. Right. And and To go to our point.

48:39 earlier about sustainability. Is it fuel uh that that can get you where you want to go over the long term, or is it really corrosive? And usually I tend to find that it's pretty corrosive fuel. So And then if we just start with like

48:55 Let me make sure I'm not lying to myself about My temper. Right,'cause a lot of us tell ourselves like, Oh Uh, it's'cause I really care. Or it's what drives me.

49:08 I'm not as bad as my boss or my dad or whatever. But like if you really step back and you said like what is this Actually adding and what are the costs that it's coming at, it usually becomes pretty illustrative that it's it's not a positive force in our lives. What are the other sources of mistakes when you you find yourself making mistakes? Are there other sort of like common themes to those that you can pull out? Well, I the stoics talk about the passions, right? And you know, today obviously we talk about passion being a good thing, but I would say at the root of most mistakes. Both personally and sort of historically

49:44 Um It's one of the passions, right? Envy, lust, Anger, fear. uh you know, pain.

49:53 Uh worry. You know, the those sort of emotional states That Take us out of the rational

50:02 part of ourselves and into some sort of frenzied or flurried or Consumed part. You know what I mean? Yeah, the way that I think about that is they sort of like they nudge us against reason, right? So they make us more instinctive and less reasoning at the same time. And it th those are the very moments that humans, unlike any other sort of mammal can you know, like any other animal can actually like, no, I'm gonna Put a two second pause on this and I'm gonna think before I instinctively respond because those instincts might have served me really well in the Savannah.

50:37 But the the they're not necessarily gonna serve me well here because I'm about to do something that can't be unsaid or can't be undone or I remember reading about this in Lives of the Stoic, which I have right here, about the well, I think it was the Emperor who stabbed the guy with his pen in the eye, right? In a fit of rage, and then he couldn't undo it. Yes. No, and it's often uh Precisely the situations in which we are overcome by passion.

51:03 We have the slimmest margin. For error. It's like I I've talked to people about this, uh about anger specifically, let's say like politically, especially right now. It's no question like what's happening in the world is is appalling and frustrating and Uh in some cases like

51:21 Downright evil. So you have to ask yourself, okay, like so you're looking at this person who's in the way of what you see as progress. So either Uh let's say it's an individual person, we're talking about vaccines or masks. Or it's some politician who's, you know, styming some important bit of legislation. Either they mean well.

51:40 And are massively misinformed. Right, in which case anger, let's say, is not going to convince them. Yeah. Or They are Pathologically evil.

51:52 In which case You can't afford to be angry. Because they're not angry. Right, like they're pathologically evil. uh or a narcissist or toxic or or whatever.

52:04 And so the idea that you can afford Not to be hyper rational and strategic and in control of Of all of your faculties. You're in really bad shape. I think you could argue that What Trump does and I don't think this has to get political, what Trump does is

52:22 Is Uh I don't think it's uh so much a function of genius on his part. so much as a uh confluence of personality traits so enrages His opponents had

52:35 and disorients them and is so the opposite of what they have experience dealing with. That It's almost like a self-protective bubble. Right, because it It's like he's inside the loop of the opponent.

52:50 And because they're not thinking rationally patiently strategically they're just like ah Yeah, he hacked your operating system, right? Like he's literally just your brain and he's making you respond in a way that's advantageous to him. And disadvantageous to you. How do we overcome that? Like how in the moment.

53:08 Do you like is there any stoic advice or anything that you've learned where it's like Do you take I I think there's one quote about sort of like reciting the alphabet before you respond. Yeah. There's all these tactic tips that we've learned as adults, like don't send the email, leave it as a draft, read it again in the morning. Well, it's funny, one of the advisors to the emperor Octavian is this stoic Athena Doris. And he actually says this, he's like, Look, as the emperor, you will be provoked. You will be angry. He's like, But I want you to recite the letter of uh every letter of the alphabet before you do anything. And I love that that's like two thousand year old piece of advice that you would also give your seven year old. And yet the most powerful man in the world needs it too.

53:48 The idea of the pause I think is super important in all things, right? Because like very rarely are Is that immediate uh solution the right one. I think uh we talked about Kennedy earlier. Think about the Cuban Missile Crisis. Um You know, he was able to string out

54:07 А нукліар став. Over thirteen days. But it was only by stretching it out. by using the time by talking about it by talking through it Um

54:18 That he allows not just his own advisors to sort of see things in In a better light. But he allows his opponent to come to their senses too. And I don't think that would have been possible compressed into three days.

54:33 Uh George Washington is one of his favorite expressions. It actually comes from a line about The stoic Cato. You know, he says, I want to look at everything in the calm light of mild philosophy. And I think that's being rational. That's being empathetic.

54:49 That's being Not frantic or rushed. And I think it's important to point out, like People who knew George Washington were like He has a horrible temper.

54:59 You know, he is an impulsive deeply passionate human being. But that it's that he got control of those things. Because his positions demanded it. So this isn't a like

55:12 Oh, I just have a good temperament kind of thing. It's like you have to cultivate that temperament. Particularly if you're in some position of leadership or responsibility. And and you can't practice it in the moment where it's it's the most difficult, right? Like you have to practice it in these little somebody slights you, you know, almost on the playground. You're like whatever. Like these are the moments where you practice your response. Because when it's large, when you're on the stage when the lights are on and when everybody's watching you, that's not when you want to practice. You want to have that instinctive response. Well it it's like if you haven't practiced it in the little areas, it's very unlikely you're gonna be able to do it, like when the game is on the line or your career is on the line, or like the eyes of the world are upon you. Totally.

55:55 Okay, I want to come to Lives of the Stoics for a second. One thing that I learned reading this book that I had no idea about, and I think most people actually have no idea about. Is like, what made Cicero so shady, man? I I think it's ambition. Uh I don't know if I shady is not the right word, but he It's kinda the right word, but I think what he was was your sort of consummate

56:18 politician who loved politics more than Policy or principle. She just never seems to understand That doing the right

56:31 Thing. is ultimately more likely To ensure you the greatness or the success that you're after. than doing the expedient sort of self preserving thing.

56:44 So he's just always thinking about the next office. He's always thinking about the next opportunities, always thinking about What's gonna help him? And the result is He basically betrays everyone. gets a reputation for being

56:58 Precisely that. And uh, you know, when it counts is both failed by and fails. Uh. The the way that I read that in both books, sort of Lives of the Stoic and sort of Courage's Calling, is that like

57:11 He never really commits to anything. Yeah. He's always sort of like channel surfing for the opportunistic to whatever. So he he he's sort of like so flexible, but like If you think of all the people that we tend to admire in life, they're committed to something. Like whether it's sort of like building a company, whether it's character or virtue, Uh, but th they don't waver. They're just a hundred percent committed to that. And so often, like not only like a lot of us are like Cicero, like we're channel surfing, we're looking for that thing, and we're not committing to anything. What's your response? Like, how do you respond to that? There's this great moment where uh after Caesar comes to power and and Cicero it had up until this point been this like lover of the republic and then he just sort of rolls over and lets

57:55 Caesar do what he does. But he'd sort of kept one foot in both camps. And This guy gives this speech where he sort of uh criticizes Caesar to his face. You know, Cicero uh congratulates the guy after he says, Come over here and sit with us.

58:09 uh sit next to me and the guy joke he's like I'm surprised there's a chair next to you Because you sit on two stools. Meaning that he he always does precisely that. He tries to play both sides. Basically Rome has two civil wars in his lifetime. And he goes, I'm just gonna wait.

58:26 pick the w uh when the winner uh uh reveals themselves, that's who I'm gonna side with. Well, so he barely survives the first civil war. Ah, he's always regarded as with suspicion. And then the second civil war happens. And then uh you know, eventually uh uh

58:44 It it it shakes itself out. And Cicero gets killed anyway because they saw like it was so preposterously transparent. This idea that you can play it both ways, it never works, right? Евенчулі the music stops. And they see you for what you are. One of the things a lot of the stoics have in common, uh, at least like Marcus Aurelius and and a lot of or maybe not stoics, but more prominent people in life is that they journal. Yes. What we're talking about is a lot of like sort of self awareness and self criticism, right? The sort of

59:15 evaluation of how one is doing and how one could do better. And I think journaling is pretty much the most effective way we've found to do that. I mean, I think it's a little bit there in meditation, but I mean part of meditation is not thinking. Right. And so uh I think journaling is just as as I

59:33 Have experienced it and I understand it. Journaling is the conversation we have with ourselves. Аба тобі. And how far we are from that at any given moment. And I I think that's necessary in from a reflection point of view, because I think one of the keys to learning and improving is not just sort of having this experience. It's actually your reflection on this experience is what's going to cause you to create an abstraction. And the abstraction is going to be your action. So if you think of learning as a loop, right, you have an experience, it could be yours, it could be this conversation that you're

1:00:05 you're listening to it can be a book that you're reading, it can be somebody at work. But the the real key to that learning becomes the reflection. Like what were the variables that mattered? How do I digest this? How do I process this? How do I distill it? And so often what we do in day to day life is we consume other people's abstractions without the reflections. And so we have this illusion of knowledge. So when we're journaling, What we're doing is we're teasing out that illusion of knowledge, but we're also taking our experiences and we're translating them actively into sort of abstractions that we can use that become actions that we can take. Well, look, it it's it's I think it's also the codification of what we've learned. So like For a sports analogy. If just like instruction

1:00:48 And then experience was enough. Um, why would players ever watch game film? Right. Like they were there when it happened. Obviously they know what happened. But it's not true.

1:01:00 Right, you break it down, you need to look at it minutely, you need to evaluate yourself. Not in the moment, but from a distance. And I think it's in the pages of a journal. That we have the ability to go Well, here's what you wanna be.

1:01:15 But here's who you were today. You knew today was a travel day. And you thought about Not being anxious. You know, being patient, going with the flow.

1:01:25 And And here we are the next day or that evening. And you're like But you had a meltdown, didn't you? Right.

1:01:33 Why did that happen? What triggered you? What could you do differently next time? How do you think other people saw this? Right.

1:01:41 Um and and so that sort of ability to reflect and analyze and discuss is really important. And I think the other part is it's not just our behavior. There's a an Anne Frank line I love where she says, Paper is more patient than people. It's also like the the things that I've thought Or believed

1:01:59 Or been frustrated with people about that I've kept like by writing them down in the journal I felt like all the all the ferocity of that feeling. wet away

1:02:10 And so instead of vomiting that all over someone Uh you know, because they left the Toothpaste cap out. You processed it and then you were just like Hey

1:02:21 I feel like we're not in sync. What's going on? Right, instead of like what the fuck is this? You know, like so so you're able to uh you're able to to to get it out in a safe place. It also sort of slows you down, right? So in decision making, we we advocate sort of an approach when we work with people on improving their decision making about Write the decision down at night.

1:02:43 That you're about to make. And then read it in the morning. And see if it still makes sense to you. And what you're really doing is you you're doing a couple things, right? Like you're Processing whether you comprehend that in a way that you can explain it to yourself, you're checking in with your rational and emotional self. You're taking yourself out of system one, you're putting yourself in system two when you you you go the night and you read it in the morning. Most of the time you're like, oh that, you know, maybe that doesn't make sense or that wording isn't quite right. And and you can sort of self-correct. And I I think that it also helps you reflect on the decision, sort of what are the variables that matter? How are you thinking about it?

1:03:17 Um and you're getting out of that sort of like uh instinctive response and you're putting yourself in a situation where you're improving the odds that you're at least using reasoning. No, and this is true in communication as well. Like the the two or three biggest scandals of Truman's presidency. Are basically letters. He he wa he was a Reasonably controlled and

1:03:38 Decent person. But when he got upset, he would write and say things that he shouldn't say. Um that upon reflection he regretted saying But he'd already put it in the mail by the time that reflection could have happened. Lincoln conversely.

1:03:53 would write these letters that he would leave in the drawer of his desk, right? And and almost never said. And so I think about like There's almost never been Uh

1:04:03 Uh like a firm or a strict or a negative like email that I've had to send. that upon sitting on for twenty four hours or sometimes like a week. That I haven't made some changes to.

1:04:19 That's not to say that I don't send it. I almost always do send it. But I just realized that what was talking was less me trying to solve the problem. and me venting about the problem. And so And and I'm not even saying it fixed the situation, but like I think about it, it's like look.

1:04:37 They're still probably gonna be an asshole in response to what I have to say. If they were If if they weren't. We probably wouldn't be having this conversation. Right. But I know.

1:04:48 That if someone else were to look at it If I were to evaluate it against my own conscience. If it were to be public. That I know that I didn't provoke this. That this came From them.

1:04:59 Uh and there's no evidence that you know, no one can go Hey, you're both to blame here. Right? Right. Because I took the time to to reflect be in control of myself and not let sort of passion dictate. And then we all also make these mistakes, right? Like you you slip up, you you mess up and

1:05:19 The the I think the point of those is like, okay, well, that that's fine, but like get back on the horse, right? Like don't just sort of throw everything away, because we are all flawed in various ways. We all will make mistakes. You you can't sort of make one mistake and throw it all in the air and wash it away. When yeah, like let's say you send an email and it blows up in your face, you're like, Okay. I knew better. I did it anyway.

1:05:43 I can't undo it. Yeah. Uh, but I cannot do it again. Well l let's sort of switch gears and end with sort of the uh four stoic virtues Curge is calling his air.

1:05:54 And uh what are the other ones? What are they? Why do they matter and how do we use them? So the cardinal virtues in stoicism and Christianity and most of Western philosophy are Courage. Temperance, which means self discipline. Uh justice and wisdom. So I am doing a four book series on those, courage being

1:06:12 The first I think Uh the most Let's say necessary but not sufficient. Of the virtues. And so, you know, we talked about earlier like Mark's really saying that

1:06:23 Every situation is an opportunity to practice virtue. I think what he means is that there's no situation so good, so bad Planned or unplanned. It does not demand from us one Uh were more.

1:06:36 Of those virtues. So so go into more detail though, like uh temperament or or sort of self discipline. What what is that? What does it mean? What does justice mean? So my uh I've only written the first book and I'm halfway through the second. So my my definitions are gonna get wordier as we go on because I've yet to refine them. But my discipline of my my definition of courage is that Courage is putting your ass on the line. Literally or figuratively.

1:07:02 Um Self discipline is The standard to which you hold yourself. That to me that's what moderation is. Like not what you Can do.

1:07:12 But what you allow yourself to do. Right. Not what's legal. But what you What you choose.

1:07:18 Justice I I think justice is is a more encompassing virtue than than perhaps the word. I suggest to me it's something akin to The golden rule. Right, like treating people the way that you would like to be treated.

1:07:32 Um You know, honesty, respect. decency Fairness, etcetera. Um

1:07:39 It's doing the right thing. Right, whatever that thing happens to be. And then wisdom Is not just the pursuit of knowledge and understanding.

1:07:51 But Particularly the almost intuitive sense of like How much courage is required, how much temperance is required, right? What is the right thing? So ja uh wisdom, the final virtue is the virtue that kind of unlocks

1:08:07 When and how to apply the other virtues and we get that. From experience, from study, from mentors And and from from life.

1:08:18 Thank you so much for taking the time today, Ryan. I think this is a great place to end this and I really appreciate it, man. I'm looking forward to the next three books. Yeah, I'm i I'm excited and uh I wanna know all about the timeline on your book. Ha ha, that's a great place to cut this out. The Knowledge Project is produced by the team at Furnham Street. I'd love to get your advice on how to make this the most valuable podcast you listen to.

1:08:48 Email me at shane at fs dot blog. You can learn more about the show and find past episodes at fs.blog slash podcast. To get a transcript of this episode, go to fs.blog slash tribe or check out the show notes. Can you do me a small favor? Go online right now and share this episode with one friend who you think would love it.

1:09:08 Thanks for listening and learning with us. Till next time.

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