How to build breakout products, with Mark Pincus & Reid Hoffman

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0:53 Hey folks, Jeff Berman here. I am thrilled to share some of the new names who will be joining us at this year's Masters of Scale summit. This may be our biggest stage yet. Reed Hastings, Meredith Whitaker, Van Jones, Amjad Masad, and more. Will be there with us October 20th through 22nd in San Francisco. If you're building something great, or you want to build something great, We want you there with us too.

1:20 Join us at masters of scale dot com slash apply twenty six. That's mastersofscom slash apply. Twenty six.

1:43 Internet nuclear winner, we called it. In O two to O three. When right when you started LinkedIn, when I started Tribe. This feels very like a similar moment that it's not figured out, but you know it's going to be. This is Masters of Scale. This week on the show, Reed Hoffman sits down with Mark Pincus. You should know Mark, but if you don't, he's a serial tech entrepreneur and investor, best known as the founder of Zynga. Thanks to games like Farmville.

2:17 Zinga Blitz scaled to three hundred million monthly active users on Facebook at its peak. They were also huge on MySpace, but we don't remember MySpace so much these days. Now Mark has a new book out, Life at the Speed of Play, the Godfather of Mobile Gaming talks with Reed about how to build products people love, how to learn fast from your mistakes, and much, much more. Mark, it's always an honor and a pleasure. Welcome back. to Masters of Scale. Happy to be invited back. Part of the reason why we decided to do this, so you have a new book coming up. And I wrote

2:52 The forward to the book. I'm a huge fan of the book, but Okay. Internet boy. Why did you write a book? What led you to writing a book? Very old school media.

3:04 Well, coming from someone who's been prolific with his books Internet boy. Yes. I would say After writing the book, I think everyone should write a book once. I think it's one of those things that's such a labor of love. But I wanted to Capture

3:19 Book of life motivation, one part stories, one part product management bible, and We'll see if they all work. Originally. You may remember the first few years I was writing this book, I called it Proven Better New because I was like, that's the core value. That's the core value.

3:37 But I started to realize that That's in service of something much bigger. And To me, life of the speed of play.

3:46 It has meaning on a bunch of levels. One is It's the vibe. It's the way that I think we should approach making products. I think it should be fun and playful and light. Someone asked me at a party, they're like Is this book also targeted children? And I said

4:03 No, actually they already know how to play. Yes. And so I think remembering the kind of level of fun and imagination that we have in play. You know, as kids giving yourselves permission to play is important. I also think

4:16 That in this AI era. Which You told me about years before we got to it. I wish I'd Listen harder.

4:23 In this AI era We are just Hardling. Towards. living our lives at the speed of play. And I think

4:31 That That's more and more accessible to all of us. You don't have to quit your job to try out build an idea that you've been thinking about. You don't have to Go

4:43 And Mortgage your house, raise a lot of venture capital, do all these things before you can experiment. That wasn't true when you and I were starting out. And even a couple of years ago that wasn't true and now We're this place that we have all the one person founder team. So

4:59 That's the other part of it is like it's the era that we're also entering. This proven better new. What's the framework? What's the baseline of understanding it? And we'll do that and then we'll move to Also talking about that in the age of AI. In order to explain Proven Better New, I gotta start

5:15 A chapter earlier on instincts versus ideas. Literally a chapter earlier, I guess. The foundational point for me as a product maker is that we have winning instincts. These things in our gut. You just You know it. And you're tuning into it, you see it, you're like, I know that's right.

5:32 So if you accept this premis. That your instincts are right and your ideas are usually wrong, then what do you do with that? And what I mean by that is like You know, you could say I we all had the idea for Ray the dating app or whatever. But

5:46 We didn't We had the instinct that something was broken there or there was a better way. But not that idea. So Proven better new is this framework that we got to out of the failure of tribe came the commitment to winning in zinga

6:03 And with that this framework of proven better new and the idea was to say okay We've gotta be more scientific about this. It's a way to Isolate

6:13 And box in your innovation in one place and just say This is where I'm innovating and this isn't. And so If you're Zuck and you're building threads

6:24 Which is you know. A Copy a fast follow of Another very successful product. He did a

6:32 A very good I give him an A minus. Very good job of proven better new. And the things that are proven are Things that on that platform for those users works and you're not planning to make better. And you should Copy those legally.

6:47 If you do it artfully, people don't realize it's a copy, but you should not change a s a single thing. Stay as close to it as possible without doing anything that's illegal. Yeah. The real art of it is that the end user doesn't feel like it's a blatant copy. That's the real magic trick. By the way, there are funny things in copies because in 2004 when I went to Shenzhen. There were three copies of LinkedIn. There were such exact copies in Chinese. I could fill out a profile and I don't speak any Chinese Speak, read, write, et cetera. But I just like click on this button, f type in this field. But that's proven is No, no, we know what the game mechanic is, we know what the product mechanic is, we see the demand, we see the signal for how people use it, why they value it, et cetera. Stay close to that within what you're doing in your product. Yeah, and and the best product makers, the the irony of this, the paradox of this is that the best masters of the craft.

7:38 Alright. the best at copying. Yes. And they have the least ego around it. And the most junior amateur people feel the need to change everything and they're the worst at copying. And they fail for the wrong reasons. And that's the thing. If you don't do the proven right

7:53 You're gonna get usually false negative signal. Very rarely false positive signals. Your product will fail for the wrong reasons. And then better. Is

8:03 I like to say what you believe is better is called new. Right. What's actually better is what ten out of ten of the existing users of that product would say Yeah. So better is usually very simple and basic things like it's now free.

8:18 No download. It's Something that they really care about is like one inch better. Well, you already have the consumer experience of what that thing is and what would be obvious. It would do the immediate like yes, this is Yes. Yeah, it's clearly better. I've been it's clearly better because it's also something I really care about.

8:35 And I care so much about this product. That I noticed that you polished it more. Yes. Okay. And then new. Is

8:43 Your novel idea. That will probably be the reason why people will try this product, and it will probably also fail. So we called it the back of the box. It's new and improved. My favorite bad example was the game Risk.

8:57 Right? You you and I love board games. Yes. I remember When I said, Oh, some MBA at Microsoft decided to change my risk game. What do they do? It was like Proven worse and Bad new. They

9:10 took the wooden pieces that I loved and made em plastic. They made'em Roman numerals. Like I wanna show my force. I don't want Roman numerals. That's not better. And then They had another game on the back called Castle Risk, which I never even learned. I'm like, What happened to classic Risk, right? So that happens.

9:27 Too often you know that people Try and make it better. But if we realize our new idea Is Probably wrong.

9:35 Then we can plan ahead for it and say, Well, what are four other ones? And and am I looking around at Other products, other versions of what I'm doing. So I can learn faster. And so what you try to get to with Proven Better New is we wanna be We wanna be like scientists with white lab coats.

9:52 And we want to be prosecuting this instinct and saying, okay, I'm not attached to this idea and my team isn't. And I'm gonna give myself and my team permission to. Change every Monday.

10:04 No Take proven better new. And Use that lens to talk about the age of AI. Because one of the specific

10:13 Strangeness is is there's very little proven. Yeah. So you're suddenly in a Yeah, proven is okay, chat GPT is proven in some ways, Cloud Code is proven in some ways. But they're pretty expensive proven. I can point at something proven. And all you need it used to be ten billion. Yes. Now all you need's a hundred billion for that game. And the compute cluster. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

10:35 And people say, Does proven better news still apply in the AI world? When you're going to a new platform and we can come back to whether this even is a new platform. What do you do when there's no proven? It's much harder. And and I try to deal with it in the book by talking about There's a fuzzy proven you're looking for. It's

10:53 Is there something that was proven There's an experience was proven somewhere else. And now I could try to apply it here. It's a better well to start with. That's a better vein than just

11:05 I'm gonna come up with something the world's never seen before. That's Much less likely because you and I know that behavior, the more things change, the more they stay the same. And the other hard part of this is We think

11:17 Is there a platform And I'm curious, do you believe that AI is a platform? Well, there's several senses in which we talk about things as platforms. And so there's some senses at least in which is a platform, but platform is like in the consumer sense.

11:31 Well, AI certainly has platform technology for consumer applications, although the model underlying what could be a number of different agents. And so that model could be the technological platform. For this. There's also the question of the front door. Right. And so

11:48 The fact that people will generally go to one, maybe a couple more, that's the front door for everything. That's why we use Google and search synonymously for this. As the portal. As the portal. And so there's platform sense in which I think there will be People haven't Agent maybe a couple, but certainly an agent that's kind of their general front door. But they don't yet, right?

12:13 Well, I think that's one of the benefits where the chat G B T position is. I think the chat G B T is the closest to that right now. Totally agree. I would argue it is not yet A platform at a consumer level. There's there's no it's not yet there. Even contrast that with Google in the early days. was a platform for web distribution because There was SEO and S E M through Google and so

12:38 That was A platform. I mean the web obviously and the browser were, but Google was itself a platform enabler magnifier. And we are not Well not yet. There.

12:50 By the way, this is funny because This is echoing back to our very earliest conversations as friends. Because both you and I went to the Who was his internet winner? The internet was considered to be concluded. Yeah. It was Yahoo.

13:05 People remember that, you know, like Amazon, et cetera, et cetera. And All of Silicon Valley broke in two directions. It broke to either enterprise Oh, we're just gonna go to an enterprise or clean tech. Yeah.

13:16 You guys, the consumer internet. And just started. You were the earlier guys. Right. Because it was like guys. And then we we formed a little group of people who were doing angel investing. We started doing companies and all the rest, because we're like Hey, the consumer's coming. And so what part of what you're saying is that with AI, people haven't realized the whole consumer revolution that's gonna come with AI and I agree with you. And as we know, as we see it in Silicon Valley, everyone's talking Well can enterprise where the money is.

13:44 That was the same thing back in the internet winter. Yep. You know, et cetera. And like no no no, consumers gonna be big. Now enterprise will be big too. Yeah. Right. And by the way, they were right. The clean tech generally failed. And The shift enterprise did the cloud resolution S right. So there will be a whole bunch of enterprise stuff. But like it's funny how few people are thinking about the consumer thing right now. It's a very good illustration. Yeah. And that was one of the things you and I started having dinners on going The world is here and no one realizes it. Yeah, yeah. I mean in fact

14:14 I remember when we both Road checks for friends, sir. Mm-hmm. It was not because we thought it had any chance. We just were like, This is an experiment that needs to happen. Because this is important for the consumer internet. Yes, exactly. And it was later that the venture came in and around 'Cause like oh look at the growth curve is beginning to happen. Yeah. And it was one of the funny things is I hadn't realized

14:37 There was such a demand for the consumer side that Frenster didn't understand virality or growth hacking. Yeah. They just literally the wave picked up the boat. Yes and tsunami moved it along. Yes. That's a good way of putting it. So I agree with you about the AI thing, and it's not yet a platform in those regards. It does feel very analogous to Internet nuclear winner, we called it. in O two to O three.

15:01 When right when you started LinkedIn and I started Tribe. And this feels very like a similar moment. That it's just it's not figured out. But you know it's going to be. Still ahead more with Reed Hoffman and Mark Pinkus on why great founders need to ignore The fear of embarrassment. Humans will never be more intelligent than AI. There's gonna be two types of companies.

15:31 Those are great at AI and those that went out of business because they weren't how do we build a future. That is human centered. I'm Rana El Calyubi. And on my podcast, Pioneers of AI, we answer that question and so many more. As an AI scientist, entrepreneur, and investor, I know what it takes to build AI that works for everyone.

15:54 Every week I sit down with the pioneers shaping our future. and we take you behind the scenes of the AI that's transforming our lives. Find pioneers of AI wherever you tune in. Hey listeners, Bob here. If you listen to Rapid Response on Masters of Scale, you may be missing half the show. Because every Friday we release a second rapid response exclusively in the rapid response feed. The guests and topics are just as compelling and timely from Ford CEO to NASA's administrator to the lessons from The Devil Wears Prada.

16:33 It takes about 10 seconds to find, just search rapid response wherever you listen to podcasts and hit follow to make sure you never miss an episode. I hope to see you there. Mm-hmm. Welcome back to Masters of Scale. You can find this conversation and much more on our YouTube channel, and be sure to check out the link in the show notes to subscribe to our newsletter. Part of the reason why I think the book is important is because

17:04 When you were doing Zinga and I was doing LinkedIn We had a bunch of things that we would trade like as friends, but wasn't like settlers of Catan, like too cheap for a rock. Yeah. It was more Hey, I'm seeing this. Hey, I'm seeing this. Hey, I'm seeing this. Hey, I'm seeing this. Just like it's knowledge and intel. And part of it was Zinga more or less kind of wrote the modern book on Game dynamics.

17:26 And thinking about game dynamics for everything, for product design. for interaction, et cetera. And frequently we get criticism because it was so rotated to get in game dynamics is like Well wait a minute, are you guys just a game dynamics company? Where the games like Look, we're very professional at the game dynamics and we build the games at work.

17:46 With the game dynamics. And that's part of the reason why like Farmville household name, words with friends, household name, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, as ways of doing it. And I think this lens in life at the speed of play and the dynamics proven better new. Instincts and ideas, kill the bad ideas, keep the good ideas, et cetera. is a general thing.

18:06 For everyone games represent A perfect Canvas. To learn these concepts of proven better new, because you can break it down into mechanics. But I do think and I I try to

18:20 point out in the book that it really does apply to any But I think the book is important right now because one of the things I think we're gonna see with AI. is a massive generation of products. Yeah. This is just about to go

18:33 Bonkers. large. Yeah, I believe that. I even see it with My partner Hillary. But She started getting into vibe coding with Clog Code.

18:44 And got way ahead of me. I was like, Wait a second, this is what I do. And she made This little mobile app for all of us and our nanny. It was pretty amazing based on the location, it would recommend activities for

18:58 We've five kids, each kid by age. And I was like Wow, there's a great design aesthetic. And the point to me is I'm like, oh, that's where we're headed. We're all gonna become product makers. Because it's democratized, because it's accessible and My one daughter Georgia is making a poker app. I'm like, Wait, that's what I do. Like, okay. So I do think

19:18 that everyone kind of becomes full stack when the stack's automated. And it's just promptable. And then it gets down to taste. Hillary has amazing taste. So I was so impressed with They subtle design of her

19:33 Yeah. And which are the key things from the Zinga playbook that you would recommend to call it the AI native companies. For me, it would be like launch early. In order to learn'cause that's kinda speed of engagement and learning. You obviously practice that.

19:49 It could be Things around We'll build level one to ten, see if it works. Yes. Right. Which is kind of a like I learned from Zinga and it's kind of a classic. All of that is like more possible and at your fingertips today than ever before with AI. And I like to say

20:04 Do not build it right. Yeah. Build a culture of building it wrong. Build it right, presume some level of success. I love Eric Reese. We've had great debates. I'm in the same spirit, but but that word viable is actually

20:18 Hurtful because Viable also means hope. Yes. What you want is not viable you want conviction. And viable is actually a r very weak word to me. It's it's not strong. Conviction is strong. And so

20:33 What I would say from the Zinga playbook that people should ruthlessly copy today that was proven was Test more ideas in a week than your industry tests in a year. Build a testing and failure machine. Usually at the top of the funnel. Like usually it's at

20:50 Especially in consumer, but is anyone even going to click on this? Don't be embarrassed. Don't build the rest of this, just the landing page, just the ad link and nothing else. And And it's amazing to me even today. And I think we're in this weird paradox with AI that

21:07 I would have thought by now that people would be all over the place with these testing machines and they'd be Building prototypes in a day and testing. And they're not, and it's not what I see. Because you can almost get to that minimum viable product.

21:22 In three months instead of three years. People want to do that. But then they go native, the wrong native. You know, they get too committed. to that product. And then they can't kill it.

21:32 Yeah. We have a lot in this. You know, and so I'm gonna keep iterating on this or So often teams say it's not ready yet. And You know, it's so true that if

21:43 If you're not embarrassed, you're not launching early enough. Yeah, it's totally. Turn it on to the level that you learn. Yes. But I I kind of go to this question with founders of how ambitious are you? And everyone says a ten. And then when you unpack that time, you're like, no, you're not actually. If you're really ambitious, you're willing to

22:03 be wrong for a long time. Yep. You can be wrong for three years and then really right. Or a little bit right every day. Most people take a little bit right. Like you, I'm an extreme AI optimist. And I believe that we are on the verge of

22:20 the greatest gains in You know, not just human productivity. But in Proliferation of new kinds of services for humans. By humans.

22:33 I don't want to sound. You know tone deaf about it, but My belief, just like every other era of the internet The web, mobile. Is that

22:41 There's so many industries we can't imagine today that are going to pop up. So In addition to being a great entrepreneur. And creating stuff. You're also like one of the world's most dedicated dads. You kids are amazing. You put a huge amount of time into it.

22:56 You're always paying attention. You're doing things with um Obviously one of the things that Games. And you know, social networks and everything else.

23:05 addicted versus phones, addicted versus games, addicted to some apps. As a parent. What do you think? What do you do? What would you recommend the industry do the same or differently? Well

23:17 It's a great question. The irony, right, is that so many of us who are spending our time building apps and working in this industry Shield R kids from it, but just the same way any parents could and you know, sh I'd argue should. So with my twin girls who are fifteen now. I made it pretty far. I told them

23:35 No smartphone until you're sixteen. Now They had to convince me eventually to get them a flip phone. So I said, You're gonna be the coolest kid. You're gonna be the only one with a flip phone. They didn't think they were cool. That got me a couple of years.

23:48 And then When they were fourteen They did an internship at Nantec, working on Pokemon Go. They built a new first time user experience. I was very proud of it. And they convinced me they needed phones for that. And then I wasn't able to take them back away, but I said, You're permanently on probation.

24:04 If I see you on your phone at dinner or not paying attention to your little brother or sister Your phone's gone forever. It's like kind of put the fear of God in them. And it's a good question though. I We

24:17 Enjoy being together. We enjoy playing games together. We have Really big Debates. I try to meet them where they are.

24:25 And They're for the most part they're they're on their phones. Way less than other kids and I think that's really Healthy.

24:35 And and I have noticed at times when one of them is on their screen for long periods of time, they get more isolated and and just f more flat and sometimes sad. And so I take it away and I'm like Go outside.

24:50 But I think it's The reality is it's it's a parenting issue for all of us and I don't Maybe it sounds self serving, but

25:00 I don't blame Facebook for this. You know, I don't think it's like cigarettes and it's a drug, or I don't blame games. I think it is a part of our culture and society that We what are we modeling for them? We're on our phones.

25:16 Constantly. We don't even want to look anymore at Apple showing us the amount of time we spent on our phones. And so I think most of us are. And so Seems hypocritical to you know. For us to be doing this, it's like we're smoking cigarettes and then we

25:30 blame the cigarette companies for our kids smoking. Like who do they see doing that? Now you say, Well how did we get addicted, but I think it's a it's a real challenge. It's kind of giving all of us A D D. And it makes it

25:44 You know, harder than ever With our We have a one year old, we have a four year old, and my partner is She's very vigilant about like no screens ever. And a lot of my friends were new parents.

25:57 Uh. The same way. I think I'll tell you the other thing. The second I had my first my twins when they're born in two thousand ten.

26:07 I had two thoughts immediately. One was How do I implant GPS devices? I never lose them. Classic dad.

26:16 And I was like, wow, that's a good business model. You'll never stop paying for that. Um, someone told me it was not okay to do. People still don't do that. And then the other one was Could we make an app? for parents that would gamify screen time for our kids that would let us limit it and, you know.

26:33 Incentivise them. And I and I did. I did have a uh I had one of those job wheels, like an analog job wheel, you know, that they would spin and they really enjoyed. So Yeah, so I don't

26:44 I don't have any magic. Answers other than yeah, what But I've done it. With my kids is

26:52 As long as I could and And they went through being into games and now my daughter, Georgia, is obsessed with chess. And chess.com and I've like That's

27:04 A more okay addiction, you know, than Well and and like obsession and commitment. are part of what can lead to a lot of success. has to be healthy versions versus unhealthy. And the game that I really am trying to get them into, and I tell every parent, I'm like Claw code. Whether it's

27:22 Cloud co work. Kodaks. Whatever it is, like I basically think my kids should I'm

27:28 And it it pains me to see what high school is like today. And you you don't go through this, you don't witness the way I do, but High school, it feels like it's the end of a hundred year cycle. And our poor kids are stuck. My poor kids are stuck in it. And it it just doesn't feel efficient. They go there all day.

27:45 Then they come home and they get so much homework. My kids have home schooled for the last seместер. And they were Missing the social. But they had so much more time. They they told me they learn more.

27:57 So the learning efficiency went way up. And they had m way more time for other things. And I was like, Okay. In an ideal world they'd be Doing you know, much more efficient learning.

28:08 And then if they were on a screen, it would be like for clogged code and otherwise they're outside doing stuff and nothing in between. There was a huge amount of focus on the metaverse and now it's completely pivoted to AI. What prognostications on the future of the metaverse? I think that the metaverse is starting to happen and

28:28 I think it's going to happen and it's going to be As big as Zuck thought. And it's just not gonna happen inside of an immersive game goggle. It's painful and hot to wear on your head, even if the form factor gets better.

28:42 I think whether we start to We're devices that listen to us. Whether we have AR Ray Bans Or whether we're just on the phone we've always been on.

28:54 Like I was saying before, I I think that everything is going to get more metaverse in. I think that what's gonna be the big unlock for games is The more that we put the real world real humans, real social in our games because Basically games should be a good use of your time.

29:11 They're it's this big a fing industry and it's total waste of time. Imagine if Games improved your life skills. Imagine if games We're doing LinkedIn for you. You know, imagine if you were getting a job by playing a game. Like how much bigger would it be? So

29:27 I think that's an unlock. And at the same time. I think that All of these you know, the dual lingos of the world, all of these apps are going to be

29:38 More and more gamified. And I think that we're going to see More Playful The winning services are going to become more fun and more rewarding.

29:52 Which is kind of to me part of the promise of the metaverse. And also think just Once the unlock happens for consumer agentic AI. What's that gonna be? That's the fing metaverse, right? When we have Avatars that are roaming the world while we're not there and

30:08 networking and finding us dates and jobs and New ways to make money. That's the metaverse, right? It just doesn't have to be immersive three D. It it could all happen in your brain because you're getting A message back, a text back that says

30:23 Read AI. just gave an amazing talk in you know in Bombay. You know, you crushed it. So uh last question. What's A piece of advice you're glad you ignored.

30:35 Hmm. Well I had a A junior partner at Axel once tell me I think it was when I was trying to raise money for Zinga

30:45 And Axel had backed support.com, you know, for very successful outcome. He said I just worry that you're not coachable. And I said, That's a tricky one. I I actually have a lot of coaches, but I've chosen all them and I'm not coachable by

31:00 A V C who's Never Held this job never sat in this seat, and so. I I guess it's not exactly advice, but it was implied advice of You know, I should

31:11 Pretend. That I'm gonna learn something from the person with money or the adult and and I've always kind of Said no to that. I agree with you. The classic VC stupidity is I'm a pattern recognizer and I see patterns like

31:25 Look, patterns are useful. also know how to play the game. Yeah, and If you just look at patterns, you might miss the pattern interrupt. Yes. Which is usually let's say I which is also usually the thing that is the discontinuous investment. Right, which is usually the best

31:41 outcomes and everyone else is looking at patterns playing the same game and you know from your brilliant settlers of Catan that You have to have some different strategy in your back pocket or You can't expect a different outcome. Mark, always a pleasure. It's been ten years, but Worth it to get to the right.

32:03 Thanks again to Mark Pinkis for joining us on Masters of Scale. His new book is Life at the Speed of Play. Launch Products People Love. It's a fantastic read full of actionable insights like the ones he shared in his conversation here with Reed. We'll put a link to it in the show notes. Thank you for listening. Masters of Scale is a wait what original. Our executive producer is Eve Tro. Senior Supervising Producer is Trisha Bobida. Associate Producer is Masha Makatanina. Video editor is Noah Walstein. Senior town executive is Stephanie Stern. Mixing and mastering by the audio boys, Aaron Bastanelli and Brian Pew. Original music by the legendary Ryan Holiday. Our head of podcast is Le Tal Malad.

32:53 Visit mastersofscale.com to find the transcript for this episode. And to subscribe to our newsletter. And Be sure to check out her YouTube channel.

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