Advice Line with Michael Dubin of Dollar Shave Club

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0:37 dot com Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show. who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. And you can also send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com, and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also, don't forget to sign up for my newsletter. It's full of insights and ideas from some of the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for free at gyros.com or on Substack. And we'll put all of this info in the podcast description.

1:32 Alright. Let's get to it. Joining me this week is Michael Duban, founder of Dollar Shave Club. Michael, it's great to have you back on the show. Thanks. Your first on High Built was back in twenty eighteen. It was a live show. It was so fun at the Ace Theater in LA. And as always, if you guys haven't heard that episode, we'll put a link to it in the show notes. In that episode, Mike and I talked about how uh he suddenly came into acquiring a huge amount of razors in a California warehouse, and then he turned

2:00 eight years of of marketing experience and a background in improv Blew up. And some of you will remember this incredible and hilarious video that Michael produced to promote the brand. Uh in twenty sixteen, just five years after its founding

2:17 Uh, Dollar Shape Club was acquired by Unilever reportedly for a billion dollars. You stayed on it, Unilever. for I think you were basically with Dollar Shave Club for ten years, half of the time under you leave or half the time. Independent. You uh of course eventually left and you become an investor. I know you were an advisor to Other companies including Liquid Death, which we've also featured on the show.

2:38 Uh, so so much has happened since we last Uh, had you on the show. Give us an update on what's been going on in your life. There's been a lot going on. So I don't know how much time we have, but I'll spare you the therapy session. Uh I would say the most exciting stuff that I have been up to is I wrote a screenplay. That was a super fun endeavor. I'd always wanted to do it. And ultimately I finished it kinda late last year and uh got a bunch of great feedback from some people that I really trust. And you know, if uh the script gods bless it and think it's good, um, I'd love to produce it. That would be a super fun thing that I've always

3:17 wanted to do that draws on my personal experience, my professional experience. So that's been a fun kind of tapping of my creative side. I love that. Yeah, well it's hard. Um and it's and it's hard to be original. Of course. So I've been doing that and in addition to the screenplay, I'm continuing to do my board work and advisory work and I'm starting to noodle a few new company ideas. You know, at this point I I'm ready to jump back into something, but it has to be the right thing and I'm excited to to start building again.

3:49 You know, in your in your episode of course we talked about that incredible video that you made that went viral, right? It got people to notice Dollar Shave Club. This this was a different time. I mean the internet It's a different place than it was in twenty twelve. When that came out, right? And I wonder Whether you you know what you're thinking.

4:06 is now on how to kinda cut through the noise. Like is Is that still a a reasonable goal. I mean liquid death would I know you've advised they did that, but again it was a few years ago. Do you think it's something that is still possible to sort of cut through with the right kind of Creative.

4:24 Video. It was a very different time. I mean, I don't I don't even think people were using the word influencer. Just think about how the influencer economy and ecosystem has exploded. And so it was by today's standards, you know, a primitive marketing ecosystem. There just wasn't a lot. Uh the webbing wasn't as exponential as it is today. There's just so many nodes pulsing out content to billions of people around the world. And so So yes, you can cut through the noise if it's something truly original. If it feels authentic and if it strikes a chord in some way, whether that's an emotional chord or a humorous chord, yeah, of course you can cut through the noise. I I think the biggest difference

5:08 Might be The wave doesn't last as long as it once did because there's just so much out there. And you know, if we launched the Dollar Shave Club video in today's Ecosystem I mean, forget about the fact that the the tone is is um you know from a different time, maybe. But in a hypothetical world, if you were to launch it today, I don't think you get

5:30 the same length of viral wave, which was critical to our success. I think it would break through the noise. Hopefully I'd like I'd like to think that I could be wrong, but there's no way it lasts as long. You have to work so much harder now. But if you do it well, yeah, you can break through, but then you have to sustain it with with other things. I think just amazing things about Dollar Shave Club is that it was a market and still is, to to a large extent, dominated by one company, by Gillette. And and to smaller extent chick. But when people come to you or if they are trying to build something in an industry that seems

6:03 saturated or dominated by a big player. Them. Oof. Um

6:10 What advice do I give those companies? I guess another way of asking the question is is it I mean do you think it's still possible? Is it is it crazy to try to do that? So is it is it crazy.

6:25 Probably does that mean you shouldn't try Definitely not. The last great consumer giant disruptor company has not been launched, they will continue to launch all the time. And so what is the signature element of their success? You know, it's it's probably a pretty boring formula. It's a combination of, you know, great product um and a gr and great distribution and great communication

6:52 And you know if you Kind of. reverse engineered dollar shave clubs uh the v the success of that video. I I would say that, you know, we had a great product. Um We had unique distribution um at that time. It was right at the beginning of D to C's gonna

7:08 Eat the world and right that's not what happened ultimately, but everybody believed that at the time. And then, you know, the uniqueness of the voice with which we spoke was was real and and it was captivating. It's an amazing story. Anybody who's looking to to figure out how to build a brand, you gotta take a listen to this episode, as I say, we'll put it in the podcast. Notes and description um so so check it out. Michael, let's go ahead and take our first caller. You ready? Yep, let's do it. Okay, welcome to How I Built This Advice Line. You were on with Michael Dubin, founder of Dollar Shave Club. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from and just one line about your business. Hi, my name is Bonita Casbo. I'm calling from Chatham, New Jersey. I'm the founder and own of Casbo's Middle Eastern Kitchen, which is a heritage food brand that honors the Middle Eastern region with authentic flavors and unique ingredients. My first product, Syrian cheese, is a traditional cheese that's eaten throughout the Middle East, is set to launch in twenty twenty six across all New York City stores of a major grocery chain.

8:07 Wow, awesome. Bonita, I know you'cause you're a huge fan of how I built this. You are always commenting on our posts and saying nice things and you've been a band for I feel like since the beginning. Long time. For like ten years. Long time. Yes. Long time fan, first time caller. It's great to meet you in person. So excited for this. All right. So tell us. So you've got this cheese that you're launching and to explain what Syrian cheese is. Is it like halloomy? Is it stretchy? Is it melty? So Syrian cheese is a cow's based milk cheese. So I'm purchasing curd from a curd producer. It gets rolled in salt and then it gets cooked with a unique Middle Eastern spice that is native to the Middle East called mahlab. And mahlab is derived from seeds of cherry pits that only grow in the Middle East. And the mahlab creates this unique flavor. So overall, what you'll experience with with the Syrian cheese is a saltiness, and then the center is slightly sweet. And it's a traditional cheese that's eaten everywhere. You can slice it.

9:11 And it melts incredibly well. Like I've gotten a two foot cheese pole before. Cheese pull. Yes, like we're going to be. Sorry, cheese pole. What is it? Cheese pole. Pull it, yes. Yes, it's Oh, you melt and you pull it two feet long. I pulled it two feet long. So when it's m when it's not melted and you slice it, is it does it have the texture of like uh a sort of a a a part skim mozzarella. I would say it's it's not as soft as mozzarella. It's in between feta and halloumi, and it's in that flavor family. Um, but you can't like put it on the grill. Like halumi, you can cut it and put it directly on a fire. Right. You can't you can't do that with syri and cheese.

9:52 And then um it has incredible melting property without getting oily. Wow. Yeah. Okay. Benita, when did you start your business? Tell me a little give me the backstory. Sure, I'll give you the backstory. So um I had the idea for the business in twenty seventeen. I actually got involved with the uh Syrian refugees that were settling in New Jersey and I speak fluent Arabic.

10:16 And so I worked as a translator and coordinator for dinners to help them settle in New Jersey. And at the time I met a cheese maker who tried my product and she said, This is delicious. Could I buy the recipe from you? And I didn't sell it to her. And she said, Well, I encourage you to pursue this. And then just before the pandemic, I met a uh someone who works in the cheese industry. And he said to me, When you're ready, I will help you with this and get help you make connections within the industry. So since uh the pandemic, I was home. I wasn't able to go to work. I went full force. uh in trying to get it launched and I found a commercial kitchen and I started networking the peop with the people that I had met and I got it into a few stores. And since then, now I'm full time on the business. I'm no longer working. What was your old job? So I worked in the pharmaceutical industry in sales and marketing. Ah New Jersey pharmaceuticals. Pharmaceuticals are big in New Jersey. So when I started doing selling cheese, I was uh working Monday through Wednesday sampling legal drugs and then I was sampling cheese Thursday through Sunday.

11:23 I love that. Wait, you were sampling drugs? Like you were just taking them? Well, I was a I was one of their salespeople, so I had products. Sure. So my question for Michael is as I prepare to launch, I'm looking for like an impactful grassroots gorilla style marketing strategy. that creates excitement and draws attention to this new category of cheese within the specialty case. And then at the same time, I'd love to create a digital marketing campaign roll out that's separate from social media that'll drive customer awareness and conversion. Got it. All right, Michael Dubin. She's introducing essentially a new product. But it's been done with Halumi. It's been done with Feta. before that mozzarella cheese, which was a foreign cheese in the United States, probably in the seventies, but Americans didn't even know what that was.

12:12 So Michael. Touch. Hi, nice to meet you. So exciting. Um I I love cheese, number one. Um I'm also getting hungrier the longer this episode goes on. Um so that's

12:28 Unfortunate for me, but I'll I'll deal with it. So thanks for your compassion. Um I have a couple questions. What do I put it on? Do I eat it plain? Do I put it on pizza? Do I put it on a sandwich? Am I coming up with a whole new diet here or does this fit in easily with what I'm already making? No, this'll easily fit into what you're currently doing and I have created recipe cards and I'm going to have a dynamic QR code that goes on the packaging that will dur when the customer scans it, they'll be able to get a video of me talking to them. So it's actually very simple pairing ideas that transforms how the cheese tastes depending on what you put it with. So tomato cucumber sandwich on an amazing toasted bagel. Um you can melt it um with in pita bread with mint and Aleppo pepper and olive oil. It's amazing.

13:20 Yeah. So number one, I love stuff that nobody's ever heard of before in the United States or that most people haven't, because there's a big opportunity and and I I know you're gonna kill it. I think one challenge that you're working with is uh you know, the consumer doesn't know it, so therefore they don't know how to use it. I'd lower the bar uh for them, make it really easy for them to put it on something that they're already doing, like You know, pizza sandwiches, eat this plain, pair it with your wine. But make it easy for people to say like you don't have to reinvent the wheel, so to speak. You don't have to do anything totally new. This is gonna slide in really nicely with what you're already doing. And and it sort of sounds like a unique form factor, right? Like you've got

14:04 You said you between Halumi and Feta. So halloumi's kinda I love Halloumi. It's it's like a little rubbery and chewy and really great. It kinda squeaks when you chew it. Uh feta is really crumbly. And you know, you can do whatever with that. But like your cheese, you say somewhere in the middle I think you just gonna have to articulate for folks like how do I do this, where do I put it? And if the form factor is not a slice or a crumble or a Patty like Halloumi, you just want to help coach people. So I think like that could be some fun stuff to include at the QR code destination, or even in in if you're doing sampling at stores, is a little bit of information around like here's how to use. Like are you new to Syrian cheese? Um, here's how you do it. And I I think you can have fun with the idea of syri and cheese. Like maybe there's a campaign which is

14:55 Like Everybody knows the best cheese comes from Syria. Everybody knows that. Maybe you hire, I don't know what country is best known for its cheese, maybe France, Amsterdam, right? And so maybe you have like angry French.

15:09 Ambassadors because they're so mad that Syrian cheese, the secret's finally out on Syrian cheese. Like everybody knows about Syrian cheese. You know, like I cannot believe that Syrian cheese. You know, you can have so much fun with like this idea that everybody knows about Syrian cheese, right? Doesn't everybody know about Syrian cheese? I think you can have fun with that. I think you can have fun like in the sampling, I think you can have a lot of fun with like characters. I read an article recently about like where have all the great mascots gone? And I think you know, mascots work. Like have fun with that. Like Like maybe it's

15:47 Angry Spanish, you know, cheese connoisseurs who are mad that the secret's now out. Um, you know, and it's like they go around you know, dissing Syrian cheese, and it's obviously a joke, but it's like they're dissing it because it's so good. Um, you know, or or like maybe maybe there's like S maybe there's like a Syrian cheese costume you can build and it's like you're just doing the sampling in the Syrian cheese costume. But like think of mascots. Think of like think of big Like visual arresting ideas um as you as you bring this to life. But yeah, I don't know. There's a couple of ideas at top of mind. I I love that having a a friend chef in like a in like a social media video. Like just

16:31 You know. Talk about how the seeker is out. That's a great idea. I love it. It's so funny. One one thing that I I what are we going to do now? You um But Nita, you are going to have to in addition to finding the finding the French actor. You're gonna have to I'm available, by the way. I'm I'm not gonna he's he's retired. Uh he's looking for work.

16:55 He's looking for it. I'm cheap too. Uh you are gonna have to sample the hell out of that. Yes. You're gonna have to go you know, you're gonna have to spend The next year. Every weekend, week nights.

17:08 sampling and people are gonna have to eat it and try it and you're gonna maybe use a little bit of honey on a cracker. I don't know how you just different ways of doing it. But that is going to be The key here because It's

17:22 You know, you're starring in New York City. And it's an advantage'cause New York City's a place where trends start and there's a you know a an a an audience of people who are who are adventurous. And you know, as you're sampling it, you know, the message should be like Um meet the Middle Eastern cheese you've never tried, but are about to fall in love with, or you know, about to become your favorite cheese. Something like that. And then the other thing is I would really lean into um as best you can to, you know, the some of the local press in in New York. I mean Eater and some of you know the food magazines are all based there, Food Fifty Two and

17:58 See if you can if you can just pitch them and get them to they're always looking for new category stories. To your point, Guy, um I was featured in the New York Times. Uh Florence Fabricant wrote about it. Oh and so I I think I need to bring that back up to surface and And I didn't get to tell you this, but I'm the cheesemaker for a high end Middle Eastern restaurant in New York City. So I do food service as well. And they recently got a full page write up by a food critic, and she did make a note in the article. She said her favorite was the Syrian cheese appetizer. And I helped create that with the head chef. Wow. Yeah. That's amazing. Okay.

18:38 Let me chime in. I I first of all I couldn't agree more with Guy that sampling is gonna be key to your strategy. And the other thing that I think is super important for you to get right is your packaging. Yeah. I'm not a designer. I couldn't give you advice there, but I know it when I see it. So when you have your packaging, if you want to shoot me a note on LinkedIn, I'm happy to look at it. I would love it and tell you what I think. But I think those are two things that you have to get right is is your Is your packaging and and your and your sampling strategy. Absolutely. And finding a a a a French guy, you know. Well it's funny. Within the cheese community, people have started to make jokes about it, like it's better than feta. Like people have

19:15 made jokes like that. Um, but Michael, to your point, uh we we are starting our packaging design right now. I'm I'm working with an agency. So I'm happy to share it with you. Um we started with the logo right now and then we're moving towards the packaging in a couple of weeks. Everyone knows about Syria and Cheese. Everyone knows everyone knows. Everyone knows. Everyone knows that best cheese comes from Syria. There you go. Uh Bonita Casbo, founder of Casbo's Market. Thanks for calling in. It's great. Great to have you on. Thank you, so thanks so much for for cheering us on too over the years. Appreciate ya. Bye. Good luck. Imagine in your head what what does a French cheese maker look like?'Cause I'm thinking

19:52 He's wearing a beret, right? Yeah. And a red scarf maybe like around his his neck? Go on, you've got it. Mustache? Yep, tot for sure. Mustache. I think you got it. I think you got the shouting. He is shouting. He's angry. He's angry. He's angry because the secret's out. That's her that's her mascot. Totally. I love it. I think it's super fun. Yeah. All right, we're gonna take a quick break, but we'll be right back with another collar and another round of advice. Stay with us, I'm Guy Roz, and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this.

20:35 Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Roz, and my guest today is Michael Dubin, founder of Dollar Shave Club, and we are ready to take our next caller, hello caller. Hi, my name is Brandon Davis. I'm from Vista, California, in San Diego County. I'm the owner of Pars Mobile Mini Golf alongside my wife Claire. With pars, we bring the mini golf to you for your next party or event.

21:00 Wow, okay, Brandon, thanks for calling in Pars Mobile Mini Golf. So like I have a party And I want I want something to do. You will bring a mini golf course And

21:14 And how does that work? Yeah, we bring the full mini golf course. We try to make it look as permanent as possible in the space that you have. All we need is a flat surface. Yeah, we Provide all the putters and balls.

21:27 Um we have designed it to be as challenging and immersive as possible. It has um a high end look, so it can go to you know, black tie weddings and corporate events, but it's also versatile enough where it can go to a backyard barbecue as well. Wow. Wow, how I who knew? Who what kinds of party are the are they kids parties? Who hires you guys? Our biggest clientele is um weddings and corporate events. Um that's weddings. Yeah, yeah, so during the Cocktail hour and reception, they'll have it to entertain guests and you know to Wow.

22:01 Um People can converse and meet each other over a game of mini golf. That is so call how did you even come up with this idea? Who would have thought of this? Yeah, I loved uh mini golf as a kid. Um and one day my wife and I were talking and I was just like, I would love to

22:17 own a permanent mini golf course, like a fully immersive indoor one. And we didn't have the money at the time, so we were just brainstorming and thought, well what if we made it mobile? Um we both have woodworking experience, my wife is a designer. Um myself I designed window displays. um for a national bookstore. And so we just got started working on it out of our carport and started running it with four holes and then it just grew from there.

22:42 That is so cool. And and you're based you said in San Diego, so I'm assuming most of not all of your businesses in that area in San Diego. Yeah. And we started the company in Utah, um, but we moved it out here'cause my wife's family's from here and we just thought this is gonna be the market for it. So we packed up our whole family of three kids after two years of running it there, moved it to California, kinda took a risk, and it's paid off really well. We've done better here in California than we ever did in Utah. And and ha and your this is your full time job. This is what you guys are doing? back up on its feet and doing well. She's going back.

23:18 to be an exhibit designer for the San Diego Natural History Museum. So I'll be running it full time myself. And And did you have any employees? Yeah, we have two delivery leads who run who can run separate routes and then we have a pool of gig workers who will go out with them. And give us a sense of what you you guys are in terms of of revenue, what you guys are doing right now. I mean are you have you broken a hundred grand a year, hundred fifty? Yeah, so this year we're projected to hit over two hundred thousand dollars, which Honestly just mind boggling to me that something I made out of my car port is

23:50 At that point. Yeah. That's awesome. All right, before we get d dive into this, tell us what your question is. Yeah, so a lot of um small niche event businesses like ours They were really driven by like two products I would say the actual product and then the client interaction and experience. That's like just as important.

24:08 I've been going to a lot of the events since we started it again in California. Um, but now that the volume is up, how do we make sure that our employees are bringing that same level of client interaction and experience. that we bring when they don't have the same skin in the game and emotional investment. All right, Michael Dubin. Lots to think about here.

24:29 Um Thoughts, questions, concerns, comments? Yeah, so f first of all, congrats on the business. Uh it's a super unique idea. Everybody's looking for ways to make their event More fun, but to address your question. You know, you're highlighting a challenge that every entrepreneur faces, which is how do I get everybody else to care as much as I do about the business and about the customer experience. And one of the best ways to do that is uh to create an uh an equity pool that your employees can participate in. Is there a way for you to make your employees the best ones, the ones that are the most loyal? Can you give them a share of your company so that they feel the pride of ownership that you feel and they can enjoy in your success beyond what you're paying them from a salary or gratuity basis? I'm not sure how your how how your team works, but you know, that's probably the best

25:21 way I I could think about is is letting them participate in that way in your success. But it's a hard thing to do, um, especially with people who are uh being paid hourly, who may not have as the same passion for the category. So another thing that employees really like, uh is uh depending on ha you know, depending on the specific company and and what the role is, is investing in their Development. as as a as a worker and and where do they want to grow. You know, nobody comes to your company expecting it to be a lifelong relationship and you shouldn't expect that either, right? That's just not how it works. And then eventually they're gonna move on and they're going to uh do something else.

26:01 How can you play a role in their development and say, Here's what we need out of you while you're here and by the time you leave, you're gonna leave with A, B, and C skills, capabilities, and uh those are gonna serve you well in what you want to do moving forward. Yeah, in addition, I mean giving people equity amazing'cause uh right right away they're invested in that, right? They they they will get a piece of the uh but There be before you go down that route, because I think you're still pretty small and you may not want to do that yet. We did an episode a couple years back uh about specialized bikes and it's it's a w it's worth listening to that episode because Mike Sinyard, uh, who founded that company was struggling in like two thousand, two thousand one and and almost went bankrupt. And he happened to read an article about Adidas and how Adidas really turned around their business in the United States in part because of a brand Bible.

26:53 You thought wow, I I been running specialized for twenty years and I've never written a brand Bible. And here you are, you've got a new company, a new business. And you don't have to write, you know, a a two thousand page brand Bible, but you could write like a s a customer service manifesto, right? Because You're not in the mini golf business. You're in the hospitality business. Yeah. Exactly. You you you're in the like a restaurant is not serving food. They create experiences. Like you go to a restaurant and and Yeah, the food might be great, but that's enhancing the conversation that you have with somebody else. It's a memorable experience and the g having great food just makes it even better. And having great customer service at the restaurant, there are a lot of there are a lot of sort of points of contact. And with what you do, it's the same thing. It's like someone went to the wedding they're like, Oh, and there was a mini golf course. It was the best wedding ever I had I just it was fun and the drinks were great, the food was great and so your job is to is to help

27:44 create that joyful moment. And I think You start by building a a document. It can be two, three, five pages in Microsoft Word or Google Docs that says that we're in the business of creating joy and you You know, you you basically have checklists, you know, how to greet people, how to

28:04 Respond how to smile. The other thing I think is really critical for your business is Who you hire. Because You're not looking for necessarily people with

28:15 sk specialized skills, right? The most important thing you're looking for is somebody with the right attitude. You've got to hire for attitude. Ex over everything. You can teach people how to do this stuff, but you wanna look for people Who

28:31 Maybe have worked in hospitality. who just love this stuff, who are just joyful, just g g and not everyone's like that. I'm not like I get grumpy all the time. But there are lots of people out there, actually most of my all my team on High Built is like that. You you want to find people who just love this and love this idea and love bringing joy to people. And

28:53 That's where you start to You know, you you you create the ability let go and manage more and let Let other people run the show. And I'll just I'll add to that and just say When you're interviewing

29:09 candidates, it's really important to ask them why they want this job. What do they want to get out of it? and how can you help them get that thing out of it? Um and pay attention to the answer that you get. You know, you wanna try to find people with that kind of passion that Guy mentioned, um, with that sense of joyfulness. Um You know, and you and you want somebody that's uh that believes in the mission and believes in the business that you're creating. That's how you're gonna get people to stay and be the right kind of ambassador once they got the job. So pay attention to the answers that they give you because you don't wanna hire people for whom this is just a job. Yeah.

29:50 You know uh you know, another way to to incentivize people to really step up, and and it's relatively inexpensive is You can, if you're not doing this already, you should be asking every client uh for feedback. It's annoying because every time I buy something I'm I'm asked for feedback and it's a a little bit overwrought, but I think you could do it in a short way. Just a couple of like quick ticks of a of a box, how would you rate the experience?

30:14 And incentivise your the the people who are, you know, working for you to really go the extra mile. You can you can give them gift cards. you know, a hundred, two hundred, three hundred dollar gift card for doing a great job. And and really Prais them for the work they do, right? And also most importantly

30:32 showing an example. So when you hire people, obviously I'm assuming you're already doing this, they come with you. They come with your wife. They see how you operate, how you interact with guests, how you behave. How you go the extra mile to create those moments of joy. And emphasize that that's That's what they need to do.

30:50 This is everything I needed, like All the things I needed. So thank you so much. I like wanna get jump in on all of this. So Let's go mini golfing. I I have I I wanna give you I wanna just give you two thoughts um that just popped into my head about mini golf, because I I really do love mini golf. Number one I had a question. Can you buy the kit?

31:09 Uh and bring it to your own event. Or is it do I have to hire your company to bring To my event. We only rent right now. We've had people ask whether they can buy. Um we kind of don't want to like cannibalize our own sales and our own like rental.

31:25 Um Market area. But I guess it really won't with how big the market is. And it's so it's just whether my wife and I can Build the course out. Well, also just think about a different consumer, right? The product that somebody's gonna buy and bring home with them is gonna be very different than the thing you bring to, you know, the event, the wedding.

31:43 Definitely. But last idea I had for you is like Could you do Something where You build

31:51 Um A alive miniature buy a miniature golf course that it acts as a marketing tent pole for you. Like this one idea I've always had is building a mini golf course in a beautiful botanical gardens. And it would be attractive to both like People who love plants and gardens and people who love minigolf. They come there and they fall in love with it. And then you market having an event, we bring the course to you, but having a real place.

32:17 Um you know, that people can come to might might uh be an an interesting marketing tactic for you. Yeah, we've even thought like with a warehouse that we have a showroom that we really theme out. People can come and play.

32:31 And Pay the Ten dollars to play. Um, and we just re theme it every six months or so. Yeah. Awesome.

32:40 Brandon Davis, company's called Pars Mobile Mini Golf. Good luck, man. Thanks for calling in. Thanks so much, Guy. Thanks Michael. Yeah. It's great having you. The thing about mini golf, it's like uh uh it's You know.

32:52 I think it if you get it going. It's it's a pretty good business, right? It's a good business, definitely. Um but yeah, I um I I think he's got something. I'd love to go to one of his events. Alright, we're gonna take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller. Stay with us, I'm Guy Roz, and you're listening to the Advice Line. Right here on how I built this lab. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Roz, and today I'm taking your calls with Michael Dubin, the founder of Dollar Shave Club. And Michael, you ready for the next call? I sure am.

33:37 Mm. All right, let's bring in our next caller. Welcome to the advice line. You're on with Michael Dubin, founder of Dollar Shave Club. Uh tell us your name, where you're calling from and just uh one line about your business, please. Hey guy, hey Michael, excited to be on. My name is Brea Fleming. I am located in the beautiful Flint Hills of Kansas, and I'm the founder and operator of Incidental Wildland LLC. And we manufacture custom uniforms for wildland firefighters. Wow, that's awesome. Thanks for calling in, Brio. So custom uniforms.

34:08 For Firefighters, that is a ver seems sounds like a really niche business, although with climate change tons of forest fires. How did you start this business? What's the story behind it? Well Long story short, I graduated college during the recession when there were no jobs, and I have a background in costume construction.

34:30 And um but I went into AmeriCorps after college because, you know, no jobs. And I ended up on a fire team doing prescribed fire in Western Iowa for the Nature Conservancy. You were basically doing prescribed burns, right? Just to clear out. Yes. Brush, okay, yep. And you fell in love with but this was just your your Americor's job and and you ended up staying in this in firefighting? Yeah, I really loved it. So I spent several years doing more prescribed fire crews teams here and there. Eventually I got into fire suppression as well. Um but a prevailing issue in the industry is the terrible fit of the uniforms that were issued, especially for women in the field. And having some sewing skills, I thought maybe I could do something about that. Wow. And and but just a c I I'm assuming that the clothing is like the material is I mean, you're you're t wh what is it made of Kevlar? I mean what is it

35:24 It has to be very durable, robust. Yes. Yeah. So the material um is Aramid or Para Aramid. Uh the brand name is Nomex. That's kind of what our uniforms are referred to as Nomex. Um And yeah, there's a Kevlar component to a lot of the pants materials that I work with as well. It's all obviously designed to withstand

35:46 You know, yeah. They're not flammable, I'm assuming. Right, yep. So once the material If it catches fire.

35:55 it it self extinguishes basically just like a natural fiber wood, cotton, or wool. And then there's also a big component on radiant heat protection. So as the fibers heat up, they actually expand and close off all those micro gaps between fibers to protect your skin from radiant heat as well. All right. So the uniforms that you were using sucked. And again, what what was the p problem with them? It just the fit is really problematic and that is something that's dictated by the the oversight committee, I guess you could call'em the NFPA or National Fire Protection Administration, I think.

36:31 And they have a size chart in that standard that dictates um It's a little technical, but basically it's called wearing ease. Like if I make a pair of pants and your waist measurement is Thirty two. If I made your pants at a waist thirty two, they would be too tight,'cause that's skin tight. So

36:49 In garment making we add what's called wearing ease. Two make it fit and move on your body. And there's a practical amount of wearing ease and then there's an excessive amount of wearing ease, and basically what the NFPA dictates is an excessive amount of wearing ease. That leads to

37:06 Basically a uniform that makes you feel like you're going to work in an oversized duffel bag. If you're not going to be able to do Yeah, just a practical question. I'm assuming Most firefighters are are are hired to you know, they're hired and they're provided with uniforms

37:22 And so, how common is it for them to be like, you know, I'm gonna go buy my own stuff? Yeah, that's a great question. And I would say from what I've seen from my clients, most of them are either purchasing their uniform from me with a company card or they're being reimbursed. Um, I do occasionally get folks who feel strongly enough about it that they're buying out of their own pockets, but in my opinion, that shouldn't happen. Your employer should be providing your PPE for you. And you're mostly making not you're not just making apparel for women, right? Right, women, men, and I also do a small amount of accessories like utility wallets and tool tool pouches and that kind of thing.

38:05 Lots of questions. Before I get to we get to them, tell us your question for us today. My question is about scaling. Um, I've been in business nine years. It's been very slow. I've I've reinvented wheels. I Did not need to reinvent, um, just kind of been bootstrapping and um creating a day job for myself. And I'm at the point where I have more demand than I myself

38:26 Can Produce. And so I'm just kind of at a loss as to where to focus next and how to choose

38:35 what to scale first and what to try. Got it. Okay. Michael Dubin. This is a very interesting I mean, it's certainly niche, but I mean Look. I mean th the there's b whole brands that were created out of like scrub, right? There's a I can't remember that big one. There's a big one but Right. Yeah. Right. So

38:53 There's a world where like You know, what started out as firefighting apparel can become You know, working But anyway. Thoughts about incidental wildland?

39:05 Yeah, I uh first of all, you know, nice to meet you. Um thanks for building this business. Um this is an area that's close to my heart. Uh during the pandemic I started a wildfire nonprofit and we do some lobbying, we do some fuel mitigation work and some forest management work as well. But I think the space that you're working in is really cool. Um, and I think it's a I think it's a cool business. Look, it sounds like you need to raise some money, uh, so that you can go out and hire staff or or develop a manufacturing partnership with someone. That's that's essentially what the the point that you're at. I mean you said it demand is not your problem. So if if this is really just a supply chain production issue, I would say my question back to you is have you found uh manufacturing partners that can help you develop the product to your specifications, or are you still on the hunt? Sure, yeah. So I've kind of started down that road. I now have a part time employee and a couple of contract sewists that I work with, and I've also started utilizing a contract cut and sew company um in Kansas City near where I live. And that's been great.

40:11 Um what I found though Is that Of all the hats I wear as a business owner, the sewing is the only thing I can pay myself for. So if I'm handing off all the sewing There's nothing left for me and I would like to continue having an income. So that's tricky. But um I feel like I'm starting to have the systems in place to build and maybe it is just a question of volume and

40:36 Better marketing. Um, or maybe there are some other things I could be thinking about too. Well, Bria, I'm curious about what you just said because I mean the sewing your sew skills are important, but they're more proof of concept, right? I mean that the the The long term value is in your designs. In in that that's your IP, right? And and your credibility because you are a firefighter

40:57 And so why can't you Why can't you um hire sowers and and And focus on The other part of the business.

41:08 I guess that's just a margin issue and possibly a fundraising issue. Um, the material is incredibly expensive. and people are used to paying a premium for this type of garment, but I'm very passionate about the industry. I don't want to be the most expensive product on the market. I wanna be accessible to the people like you mentioned earlier, who are still on the hook for buying this stuff out of their own pockets. And I just yeah, I'm not quite sure how much room I have to raise prices and increase my margins and be able to pay for things like

41:39 my time designing or my time marketing. Alright, so then I guess my next thought be, Well, if that's the case What about doubling down on accessories?'Cause I imagine that might be a little bit more scalable for the time being. Even though your passion may be in the uniforms, accessories might have higher margins, I'm assuming like uh uh I don't know, gloves or I don't know, b pouches or or whatever uh belt, like whatever accessories that you might need as a firefighter.

42:07 Is that true would the margins be better? Yes, accessories have a better margin and it would be more scalable. Um So I guess that would be just kind of an education question on my part. Like I've never done any kind of B2B. I don't know how to approach a retailer about carrying my products. Um But yeah, it's worth thinking about for sure. Brea, have you raised any money?

42:28 What's your what's your philosophy or thoughts around raising Some investment capital. I have never tried. Honestly.

42:39 Okay. Well, I how do you feel about Try. I would I would love to do that, um and see what I could Do with it. Yeah. I by by the way, Michael, you mentioned this briefly, but I think it's worth just kind of double double clicking on this. You did start a nonprofit called Safewoods. Yeah. Uh which I I guess I'm and I I'm gonna try to describe this and you can correct me. It's like an it's like an eco tourism

43:03 non profit where people can go and fight Like learn about how to fight wildfires. On their Vacations, basically, is that right? Um more or less. And it's it's had a bit of a meandering journey, but but we kinda started out uh wanting to raise awareness for the importance of fuel mitigation work and forest management work. And so we thought um could we create opportunities for you know individuals

43:26 uh or companies uh uh you know looking to do kind of a an eco retreat or some community service type thing to come out uh to to our spot in Montana and work with the US Forest Service to do all the fum do the fuel mitigation work um lear how it all works and then go back to their communities and spread the gospel. Where where it has migrated a little bit. towards is bringing uh you know influential people in business and government out in into the wildland to learn about this work to hopefully influence public policy. Um and and we've had some some really great success so far. I'm I'm Michael, I'm seeing an incidental wildland Safewoods collab. Like you know.

44:12 Like you get all these uniforms from you get your CEOs out there, they wanna dress up Okay, well you can count on that. So hit me up on LinkedIn and we'll do it. But it doesn't sound like demand is your problem. I'd hate to create, you know, more more of a challenge for you, but we'll absolutely get these outfits on our staff and uh on the US Farks if they're if they're willing to do it. And then our guests, of course. But I I think you should really think about raising some money. You know, you're you're You have the seedlings of a of a really kind of big idea here and and it's not more than the seedlings, you're it's already starting to to grow. And I think, you know, gosh, pardon the pardon the annoying pun, but it's time to put some fuel on the fire and create a little bit of buzz around this. And I I really think there are folks out there that can help you you I

45:01 make the stuff, whether those are individuals, you know, doing it in a more of a homespun way, kinda like you're doing. And then I think there's probably some quasi industrial sources that you could lean on to help you. But you're gonna need some money to go around and travel to meet them and and um and learn about them and then maybe to, you know You're gonna need some cash'cause you're probably not gonna get debt right away. Uh you're probably gonna need to put some equity capital into um into your first inventory purchases, but I would say don't be afraid of of raising money. I think you could probably raise from both Um investors that look Two

45:37 you know, investing companies that are for profit, but also because this is such a public good, I bet you could get some funding from folks that invest in nonprofits as well. Michael, I think that's an interesting idea, but don't you think That in order for in order for Brea to attract Capital. The vision has to

45:56 Go beyond. firefighting like for you know workware, welders uh electrical utility workers down the road, like something like that. Well I think that I think it's a great point. I think you always want to go if you're pitching Uh the short answer is it depends who you're pitching, but

46:10 you can never go wrong with going out with a big vision for how you're going to grow beyond your initial category. So it's great advice and and you know, you should think beyond that. That said, you might find yourself You know, talking to folks who invest in fire, you know, wildland fire nonprofits, um, you know, that might say, well, this actually feels like a public good that's connected to our mission. So you may not need to do it, but I I would say if you have ideas for other categories, um, some of which guy just mentioned that are great ones, absolutely include that in your pitch because What investors want to hear is the big idea. How is this how is this going to be the next category killer and disrupt an industry. And you have a great story.

46:53 female firefighter I mean there ca there are I I I'm I'm gonna go out on limb here and say there aren't that many female firefighters, wild firefighters. I I just probably m vast majority are men. Yeah, I think the last statistic I heard was the wildland fire scene is about eighty seven percent male. Okay, so thirteen percent of these firefighters are women. I mean y you've got a natural story here. So There's a lot of sort of media I I can imagine a lot of media opportunities to tell that story down the road, but um But I really think that that that it's an interesting idea.

47:25 Right. If you wanna scale this up, you gotta find a better supply chain and you've gotta figure out ways to make to sort of lower costs so you can focus on expanding the business. One just quick thought and I I really I hesitate to bring this up, but I'm going to anyway, because I'm a huge huge proponent of of making things locally and domestically and You you emphasize American made everything. But I wonder if there's a world where some of the products some of the sourcing can come from overseas that might lower costs. Sure.

47:57 Yeah, it probably would, and that's honestly not something that I've r really entertained the idea of up to this point. But There are a lot of good options as far as ethically sourcing Um overseas production and You know, if it got to that point.

48:12 I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand. Yeah. Michael, any last thoughts for Brea before we we send her off into the into into a collaboration with Safewoods? I would love to see you raise a couple bucks. I think you can do it. Um it's a good product. It's a great story. There's a big market to to disrupt and have fun with and and and You're ha you're already having success. I think you've got all the ingredients of a good fundraising story. So it might not come naturally to you, but I would encourage you to do it. Uh there's a lot of knowledge out there on the web to help you with your pitch and help you fine tune it. But look, don't don't

48:50 Don't hesitate. I think it's I think it's something that you'll be really good at. Brea Fleming, Incidental Wildland, thanks so much for calling in. Good luck. Thank you both so much, and Michael, thanks so much for your work in the fire mitigation space. That's really awesome. Thank you, Brea. Good luck. Awesome.

49:08 I mean I know you live in LA. You l a lot of you spend a lot of time in LA, but California obviously has s has had some serious issues with wildfires. How did you get into that? Like why did you decide to do that?

49:21 You just at a certain point when you live in the West, uh you you you you're gonna collide with this issue in some way and you're gonna know somebody that's been affected by it. And as somebody who I had just stepped down uh as CO of Dollar Shave Club in January of twenty one and Um I was looking for something to sink my teeth into and I got smoked out of this vacation and Um, I just kinda went deep down the rabbit hole to learn about wildfire and and wildland fire and how it and and and all the policy related issues, et cetera, and decided to start Safewoods. So Yeah, it was it was

49:56 sort of a outside of my wheelhouse, but I'm I'm really glad I've done it. It's connected me to some really incredible people, both on the you know, federal government side at the US forest side and and then other really big thinkers in the policy space. That's awesome. Michael, before I let you go, a question that I I've been asking every founder who comes back on to help me on the advice line, which is if you could go back to, you know, twenty eleven you know, twenty ten or whatever, when you were sort of starting this out. Um

50:24 You had a marketing background, you had improv, but you didn't know how to run a business. Right. Knowing what you know now What would have been helpful for you to know back then? Oh. I think

50:38 Probably Some of the best advice I would have given myself back then probably would've been m more on the personal side. I was consumed with with the business and and making it successful. And I I think in some ways that pulled me out of being more present in some other areas of my life. And so I I think I would have uh

50:58 tried to give myself some advice around You know, just personal time for you and space for other things in your life, that would have been really helpful. I think I would have felt calmer throughout the journey. At the same time it was a it was a completely invigorating journey and I loved every second of it, even the really, really hard stuff, even the the sleeplets, but I think with that of uh that advice there might have been a few fewer sleepless nights. But on the professional side, I would say

51:30 You know Learn to trust Um I I never had a problem trusting people outside my core competency in areas like finance or supply chain or operations because I didn't come from those backgrounds. So it was easy to trust those people. But as the team grew, um You know, and I would hire folks in marketing in in other areas that that were closer to my experience set. I would say

51:56 Um you know, it's it's sometimes hard to let go of the things that you love doing, but you have to do that to achieve the right level of scale. Yeah. I love that. Um Michael, thanks so much for coming back on.

52:09 Thank you for having me, this was super fun. That's Michael Dubin, founder of Dollar Shave Club, and by the way, if you haven't heard Michael's original How I Built This Episode, please go back and check it out. You can find a link to it in the show notes. And here is one of my favorite moments from that interview. So our first investor was a company called Science, they're out in Santa Monica. They gave us a hundred thousand dollar check. Actually, no, they gave us a hundred dollar check by accident first. And I got all the way to the bank. I literally I got to the bank and I was like here's my check for a hundred thousand You had to fill out the form that said a hundred thousand dollars and I fill it out and the woman looks at me and she's like Uh uh

52:48 Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at guyroz.com or on Substack. And of course, if you are working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one-minute message. That tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues that you're currently facing, because we would love to try and help you solve them. You can send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com, or call us at 1800-433-1250. 1298. Leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you, and we'll put all of this information in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Nora Gill with music composed by Rautina Rablui. It was edited by Andrea Bruce. Our audio engineer was Cina Lafredo. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Carla Esteves, Casey Herman, Carrie Thompson, Katherine Cypher, Ramel Wood, Sam Paulson, Neva Grant, and Elaine Coates. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to the Advice Line.

53:49 on how I built this lab.

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