Les Snead: Building a Super Bowl Champion

0:00 There was this element, right, of of as we were getting closer to the playoffs. And you know, he brought one of his uh his replica Super Bowl trophy. And Put it in our locker room. uh right there when everybody went to get their

0:14 New clean clothes, pick up their laundry for the day. Right, that trophy stared at you. And he would handwrite a message. What We needed to do

0:24 That day. each day before each of our playoff games. We didn't know if he was gonna be a leader or not. We didn't know he would affect the passer. But then you see that Hey, I've got one of these. I know everyone else in a lot, you really want one of these. Let's go get one.

0:56 Welcome to the Knowledge Project Podcast. I'm your host, Shane Parrish. The goal of this show is to master the black To that end, I sit down with people at the top of their game to uncover what they've learned along the way. Every episode is packed with timeless ideas and insights that you can use in life.

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1:35 Today I'm speaking with less need. Les is in his tenth season as the general manager for the Super Bowl winning Los Angeles Rams. His tenure is marked by strategic aggressive moves. If you like American football, you'll love this episode. We even geek out a little bit. And even if you don't like American football There's a lot that can be applied to business.

1:56 We talk about assassin character. Dealing with issues such as violence and sexual assault. Drafting. Free agents trades. The role of data and analytics

2:07 Developing drafted players, team makeup, hiring a coach. Leading the team. and why he's relentlessly curious. It's time. to listen and learn.

2:24 You were raised by a single mother, and I'm curious if you can tell me some of the lessons your mom taught you that you still think about today and try to teach your kids. Being raised by a single mom, the sociology there I wouldn't change anything because it can be You're you're gonna you're gonna earn grit. But I I think the one f the one lesson

2:44 probably really good and and sometimes bad is she did at times have to work a couple of jobs. to make ends meet uh she she wasn't college educated And we were in a small town and and she's become a pillar in that small town. But she really Yeah.

3:00 And it meant something to her. probably just growing up in that environment and and seeing it, watching it. Right they I always say there's no sick days. Right. gotta go in the in the work. But I I think that's

3:13 I think that's the the number one Lesson. The the other one Is You spend a lot of time as a young uh kid alone and in those days right pre phones

3:25 Pre iPads. Like if you were bored, you had to figure out How to not be bored. Uh You you had to you had to learn proactiveness uh

3:34 Staying ahead of the curb, things like that. You told me you were fathered by football. What does that mean? Football was something that I was For whatever reason I was really attracted to. And I think if you if you grow up in the south east. Football is very important.

3:49 in that part of the country. If you've seen the the commercials for you know, SEC football, right? Or just the SEC in general. There's just something different. It's part of the culture, it's part of the fabric. It's part of the social hierarchy. So I was very attracted to football. And as a

4:06 Kid, you had to earn things in football. I can remember in those days The first time I actually played, let's call it Football with pads on the middle school team. So sixth, seventh, eighth grade. So I think seventh grade is the first time you go out for the middle school team. And that year you're really gonna sit on the bench.

4:24 There's one school If you were third string, you you had to be third string and you played scout team and and If no one knows what scout team is, that's that's basically a a team that's getting the the starters and the contributors ready to play the next opponent. But I I remember this story.

4:40 There was all the in those days there was a company That made helmets bike helmets, and those were the cool helmets. And then In those days, the Rydale helmets were the less cool helmets, so our school probably had maybe five to seven. Bike helmets.

4:56 So Fast forward to eighth grade. You know, try you know trying to earn your keep, even though I was fortunate to earn a starting job. I didn't get one of those bike helmets. That was trauma.

5:09 for someone in our because that that meant something right there was a badge that was a badge in honor Football was something that Right, if you wanted to play, if you wanted that bike helmet, you actually had to earn. And Those coaches in those days. Uh I remember that coach of our middle school, uh, his name was John Portivant.

5:27 And He he always had a saying one more round. You know what, you're gonna get knocked down. There's gonna be days where you're gonna you know, you're gonna have to get back up and you're gonna have to go one more route. So uh I think starting in in eighth grade. All the way through high school.

5:41 My high school coach Way Woodham he had a saying, As you think, so you become. Didn't really know what that meant. Yeah. and is probably changed over my lifetime as I've really

5:53 you know, grown to understand what it really meant. And and my wife Kara has mentioned You know, your high school coach was Teaching you uh still a Philosophy. At such a a young age, but each coach, each person I've worked with.

6:06 All the way to Tom Cawfling, who's one. Two superbols, I do think they played a part. In being the father that uh I didn't have. Talk to me about some of those one liners that you remember that stick with you today that come Just top of mind.

6:21 There's a coach now. who's one of my first college coaches in uh He's now a head high school coach in Birmingham, Alabama. Uh but his name's Chris Yeager.

6:30 He was one of the first coaches. That taught you how to win a battle. didn't just somewhat yell at you to go win a battle and then maybe get mad at you when you did, right? uh one of my the my first college head coach, uh Robert Maddox, and I and I went to Troy State and then transferred. Ego that's where I truly learn ego is the enemy. If we're gonna

6:50 We're gonna bring Ron Holiday in there. He was such a humble person it was all about it was not about him it was about the team uh Uh Pat Dice senior, someone who uh coached Auburn. You know, it make mental toughness a habit. I remember Pat Dice Senior with He probably

7:08 You probably practice it. Uh One o'clock. You know, every august in in the hot humid south only because He knew that we were gonna be playing one o'clock games on Saturday. There weren't a television schedule then. So guess what? People were gonna come to that stadium and

7:25 And and melt. You know, they're gonna be frosty snowman and that humidity, but he would always say, Hey, we're gonna he was engineering Right, uncomfortableness. So that when we got to game time it w it would be easy. Uh when Terry Bowden's someone who came in and coached at Auburn and and that you could just hey energy is very contagious. There is a contagious leader. Oh.

7:46 Probably the the person, Rodney Garner, who's been coaching in the SEC a long time. He's at he's at University of Tennessee now. I mean he's definitely He was my closest. father figure because I practiced for him at Auburn. I didn't play a lot.

8:00 Uh and I also GA for him, but he he was one of those very similar to my mom. From Leeds, Alabama grew up his sociologie, you know, was you know. You had to go to work every day and it was definitely hey, you can't call in sick. Tom Coughlin used war in consistency. I mean that every day is routine and it it's pretty much the same and it's intentional. So

8:21 Sean McBay and and you You understand what true efficacy is and and you understand we being greater than me is so uh Dan Reeves, who It's one of the winningest coaches and and he just passed away. He was someone when you brought a good idea to him.

8:37 Or maybe it was even a bad idea. But maybe when you're young and spunky you think it's a good idea. He would snap at you for bringing maybe something different to the table. But what he always did and what I still do to this day and if you if you talk to any of

8:52 Anyone who uh works with me that I partner with. If I snap at someone I will always circle back. And it's because of Dan Reeves. Owners that I've worked for, Arthur Blank, who started Home Depot.

9:06 He I learned from him You sit out in a boardroom with him and His first question was gonna be the elephant in the room. So I you learned that, which has been really good is I've become a leader and not just uh a lieutenant. Stan Crocky's current owner and and he's someone that, you know, you you you learn the art of patience. Sleep on it. I'm gonna leave people out, but

9:27 Even though I was an only child. Single mother. Dad wasn't a A presence In my life.

9:34 Boy was I fathered by Some Titans who walk this planet and and wouldn't be here talking to you without'em. One of the things that you you said there that stuck out to me was uh I think it was the first one, you you learned how to win a battle. What does that mean, winning a battle in the sense of a football team and what goes into that? Throughout time, I think.

9:57 We always want things. I mean, there's an element of impatience, right? So maybe in that moment I didn't earn or win that battle for that. By Helmet. But what I did know what I did come to find maybe didn't know then, or maybe my frontal lobe probably wasn't evolved enough.

10:16 to be as quantum to know There might be a nother чаance. to earn a bike helmet. There might be another chance to earn something maybe uh more lucrative than a than a bike helmet. But there definitely had to be.

10:31 Right. A process there had to be an intention. So that I would say there's a North Star goal. In football if winning the Super Bowl would be Right.

10:42 Climbing Mount Everest. That's gonna be one day. In February. But there's gonna be a lot of days gonna be three hundred and sixty four other days. To get to that.

10:53 That peak. And What what you have to do, even though you want to get to the top. At some point, right, you have to You have to take that first step. And that first step is not going to be at the base of that mountain, right? That first step may be.

11:07 right going to buy mountain gear for the first time, it it's gonna be the training that goes into it. So Earning winning the battle is really somehow engineering designing your k calendar. Right in an intentional matter. Where

11:22 Each day you can focus On getting to them Mountain top, but The mountain top's not gonna be earned on that day, but there is a there is a mountain top.

11:32 For that day. Günstig ohne App. Bei Aldi gibt es einen Preis für alle. Diese Woche Patros Grill und Ofenkäse. 150 Gramm für nur 1,79 Euro. Oder Tassimo Kaffeekapseln ab 163,8 Gramm für nur 3,99 Euro. Entdecke weitere Angebote in deinem Aldi Nord. Aldi. Gutes für alle! If I spend a lot of time As a general manager, one thing I really like to spend time on is

11:59 our processes How are we engineering them? What's the goal it's on a Friday in May? What's the goal on you know on a Tuesday in July? And that might be renew, right, but each step of the way the other hundred three hundred and sixty four days before you you have a chance to

12:15 you know, get to the peak of Everest. Well let's talk about that a little bit,'cause you won the Super Bowl this year and then that lasts for maybe a week and you wake up and all of a sudden you're You're six weeks behind every other team when it comes to scouting and when it comes to the preparation for next year. And you find yourself at the bottom of this mountain again. And yet you're the champs. How do you how do you fend off complacency? And earn again.

12:40 There's a few nuances in that. question eight. So if we engineer our processes correctly. Even though we played a longer season. We wouldn't necessarily Be behind.

12:51 We're in a contention phase. We're aware of that. That's why we do a lot of the things we do. So we also design our calendar so that if we do play Into February. And then wow the the the new league year begins a month later in March. We're not necessarily

13:09 behind so what we did intentionally do Was Try to Focus on all of us getting away, players, coaches, staff, and just renewing. Because we d we definitely needed to come back and

13:22 And not be You know Still frayed, not s not be exhausted and and still want to compete. I wish I uh Ryan Holiday spoke in Los Angeles. couple days ago. So I went down to see Ryan and I was

13:36 Ha I hadn't seen him in a while and He's obviously written Best sellers. And then he's in the process of writing probably a four book series and he and he finished uh the one on courage and he has a second one that he's finished, but it's in the publishing. Faith.

13:51 And then he was like, Okay, on June sixteenth. Even though the second book of that four part hasn't even let's call it hit the market or the shelves yet. He's gotta go back and uh Again writing

14:04 that book and and he mentioned something I said that's That's that's very similar to what we're doing. He says on June sixteenth, when he goes to sit in his study to begin Book three. The blank page is gonna be staring at you.

14:19 And it's gonna mean something because At that point I don't as Ryan I said. And when we come back. For

14:27 Camp. In August to begin You know, the journey maybe to to attempt to repeat. Riding a bestseller repeating Yes, that's this North Star. But

14:37 Ultimately that that August day, that blank page. It's gonna stare at you in All we're gonna wanna do on that day is actually all he's gonna wanna do is really write a good first page. And see where that goes the next day. And what we're gonna wanna do is is Is right. Have they really good

14:55 Practice. And then go from there. Let's talk about the the the window of contention, as you mentioned, and You have a concept. uh the flywheel of a team. And I'm curious as to what that flywheel is during a window of contention versus what that flywheel is if it differs.

15:11 during uh maybe a phase of rebuilding. And then I guess another sort of add on to this is can you always be in the window of contention? That's a good question. That's Can we always be in a window of contention? I I think the vision. Would be

15:28 Let's at least attempt to. But Right in In професіонал спорт. uh there's gonna be attrition, there's gonna be change every year. So then when there is

15:37 Look. A change at quarterback. or or position that's really, really important or really, really good player. At that point you have to You have to adjust, adapt, and deal with. So in our case.

15:51 If in Let's call it four to five years Matthew Stafford. decides to retire. We're gonna be in contention as long as Matthew is our QB, and as long as he's

16:02 You know, still able to play like he plays. So that point for us. who will who would replace him, right? And and that's that would be a big big if then statement of of whether we can tend. So but The interesting thing, I think, when we are in contention. At that point, I think we're trying to build a team.

16:19 And not just collect talent. We've simplified it by saying in in football you we're either building And at that point We're trying and and the vision is the hopefully break through.

16:32 And then once we break through in that in in NFL football that could be Right, having a winning season and getting to the playoffs for the first time. After

16:43 not being there for a few years in the building. And and you may can you can measure some steps and see momentum and And feel momentum and things like that. But when you break through and you're able to do it again, I think at that point, The model of your team. It's probably closer to being complete. So there's some tweaks along the model that may be come become easier to identify.

17:06 Right. If we make this tweak. We might have a chance to go from good to great. If we

17:13 Actually Trey Jar Gough. Who's a young quarterback. That we were good with. That we were A perennial

17:21 Top twelve, top eight, and even got to a super bowl with. If we tweak the model, even though it's a big event and make a trade for Matthew Stafford. Right, is there a chance to be a perennial Let's call it eight four.

17:36 Even number one team. So I I think that's the that's the difference in in contending it. You you're actually and then the also thing gets into it, you're building a team and not collecting talent. So we have to know within the locker room because the players are the most important People in our ecosystem. in in terms of what what we're trying to accomplish on Sunday afternoons. Do we have the the right leadership?

17:59 I was just chatting with Sam Walker and he's he's good friends with the assistant GM of the Baltimore Orioles. And he was with the Astros so When you're a baseball GM, it sounds like you go in and you try to remodel the minor leagues. So it does take a while.

18:14 And at that point, right, you're you're probably in this mode of you're collecting a lot of talent. The vision is for them to jail together. And then when they're in their prime. break through to winning, and now you have this core team. That's in their prime.

18:29 And and that's the window of contention. When when you went into the Matthew Stafford trade, I'm I'm curious how you identified Stafford who who played in it, I would assume a a different system in Detroit. and identified that he you know, having experienced the same system for a while could make the transition to LA.

18:49 And then what went into the thinking behind trading it for him and yeah, there's an opportunity. What's the downside? How did you can you walk me through that decision. systems in the NFL do matter, right? They're they're different. I think The average fan or just a fan in general, you know, that you look down and you go, Okay, everyone's playing football. But

19:09 There is a difference, right? In in the tactics and the systems. of each Right, each NFL's team's offense, defense. and even special teams so

19:20 So here's the interesting thing. Oh, Matthew Stafford and and then I'll I'll try to I'll try to give some bullet points and and you can ask from there. We did think Jared Goff. was a good QB.

19:32 And there was a possibility that he could become a Great to be. So when we made the move for Matthew, we felt like he was great now. And he could help us in our window of contention. Be great.

19:44 That window of contention had players like Cooper Cop. Players like Aaron Donald, Jalen Ramsey that were in their prime. So In our model Maybe it was going to be

19:55 Right up. Better results. If we aligned our core players with a with a q that was there Already but And not in the process of getting there, so more.

20:07 I always said Jared was a was probably a student for Shawn. Matthew is someone who could partner with Sean. He's our head coach and our prime, but he's also our play call. So that was gonna be An alignment that we felt like would give us an edge. And in in in going back to systems, uh, Sean was mentored by John Gruden and then mentored by Mike Shanahan.

20:29 Their systems are pro style systems. Here's the interesting thing about Matthew is he grew up in an era where even in Pee-wee football there was an element of a pro style offense. Pro-style offense really It puts a lot on a QB. Uh from his ability to

20:45 Not only learn The game but to process the game quickly. So the let's just say there's a pass play call. Not a run play. Depending on what coverage the defense presents you.

20:57 or gives you and usually after the snap,'cause everyone's gonna try to disguise it. The QB has to know oh on cover four. uh I'm going to My number two. Uh on cover three, my number three receiver is gonna be the first target. Right. So it's it's based on that.

21:15 Where today In college football, in high school football, in peewee football, a lot of teams are running what we call the spread. And I think adults who are coaching at those levels realize it may be better if we take if we take the heavy lifting.

21:31 off the quarterback. And and maybe put it on the coaches. So They're doing things uh to make it a little bit simpler. uh for quarterbacks. But so with Matthew Stafford, even though he had he had had a lot of different offensive coordinators in Detroit, he was definitely someone who was raised in in a pro style offense who had a lot of reps

21:51 It really Drop him back. in the NFL being able to right lead a defense. and process it quickly and and know the answer.

22:00 Uh To the test. Real quick. At what point do you use the GM? How do you decide to move on from players?

22:09 um that got you where you are that won a Super Bowl with you, but they are in their prime and these you you start thinking about contracts in the future and you can sort of box yourself in How do you think about that? It it looks From the outside in as a fan, it looks like Belichick. sort of like moves on a year or two before the decline happens.

22:30 That is a uh I think he's definitely done a really nice job of that. He's in in my wife calls it Fowlin's basement, too. There's times Right when When he's able to pick up a player. Right, that may be devalued.

22:44 For some reason. But has a chance to thrive. in in their system. And and I do think if we got into that, I do think At the time if you were a player and you chose New England, you were choosing New England. Probably for a chance.

22:58 to have team success do something special From a team standpoint, not necessarily Make the Pro Bowl as a as an individual. We have yet to maybe experience that in Los Angeles because we

23:13 We've made some trades. And with younger players And they become our core. What we've probably Done a little differently with that core is wow, we had the highest paid.

23:26 uh defensive player in Aaron Donald and then we paired him With At the time the highest paid cornerback in Jalen Ramsey. And we also have always tried to pair him with a higher paid

23:39 And higher paid. Hey means nothing, it's really hate. Good player. That can affect The passer.

23:46 Right with Aaron Donald because teams are gonna try to take away Aaron Donald. And we've always been a team that believes in affecting the passer, uh harassing the passer. uh and that compounds over a game and and and it kinda frazzes quarterback things like that. So But we've always tried to pair that so that if If a team does let's say put

24:06 Two people on Aaron Donald sometimes three. We have other players who can win. Some of those one on one matchups. So what we've done is

24:16 We've had a you just call it a top tier quarterback being paid. And we've we've paid our skill players, some of our eligible receivers. So we have this core players, and it's maybe eight to ten. That are

24:29 highly paid at their position if you compare to uh around the league. what in turn we're probably similar to New England is. We don't necessarily have a lot of. Let's call middle class players, and that is players that are veterans, players maybe in their fifth, sixth, seventh year.

24:46 But not highly, highly paid, but make a good living we've had to in turn really rely on uh less experienced players to contribute, to start to play important roles who are who are on their rookie contracts.

25:01 We've yet had to take one of our Core players, right? Cooper Cup someone like that and say, you know what, it's best to move on now, because they're still thriving. What we've had to do. This particular

25:15 UFA class, we we had to let our starting right guard go. Like he helped us win a super bowl, but we weren't able to pay him what the Carolina Panthers paid, so we probably lose every year. True to three young starters because we can't Pay them what they demand on the market, and we have to rely on

25:35 you know, they're back ups players that we have in our development system, which is really our roster. And and take their place. I have so many questions here. I I I think the first one is sort of w with Aaron Donald.

25:48 He he might require three people to block him. And he might not get anything on the stat sheet, but he might be the reason that the quarterback had sacked. And how do you account for stats like that where it doesn't show up? On

26:03 A stat sheet. But it is sort of affecting the play. I mean, I think that's the difference between Stats we call it we we term it hidden production. And I'll try to paint the picture for everyone. If Aaron Donald

26:17 lines up On I'll say this. So in offensive line, there's usually five players, a center and two on each side of the center. I So let's say Aaron Donald lines up between The two offensive linemen on the left side of the center.

26:33 So we call that attack on a garb, and he's between those two. Most of the time. Or the majority of the time. Another a team's gonna probably put a tight end over there. So now there's a third player to the left of the center.

26:48 And the line's gonna slide. to Aaron Donald so that means the center He could either go toward Aaron Donald or away from Aaron Donald, and uh and a lot of times the center's job is to Is to kinda clean up If you think of basketball just make it hard for the player to drive to the basket.

27:06 Which at this point is the QB. So oftentimes, right, you're gonna get Two sometimes even three players aware. of air. So Let's go back to when we made the trade.

27:19 For uh Von Miller. The reason we made that trade is we knew We knew that Vaughn really wanted to win. A second Super Bowl. And we also knew that

27:31 When we add players like Von Miller that when we've had we've add when we've added good rushers In the past to our model with uh Aaron Donald. Oh.

27:42 You see those teams still slide to Aaron Donald and now Von Miller. has one on one opportunities Or let's say now. Mm. It's three it's two on air and two on Vaughn.

27:56 Now we're gonna have a Leonard Floyd. We're gonna have Greg we're gonna have to have someone else, you know, get to the QB. But I think uh In this particular year. Aaron Donald's sack production. Von Miller's

28:09 Sack продакtion. And they're probably If you you can measure Right, whether you're pressuring the QB, things like that, a little more subjective than objective, but both of those players production. Right.

28:23 went up when they when we paired them together. And Vaughn got healthier and teams were in a conflict. of who they doubled when and then when each of those players, right, felt that

28:37 This was their moment in a one on one matchup. They cash in. That's the hidden production. Right, where Our front office, our coaching staff.

28:48 Sees every single game. from Aaron Donald and and it's it's one of those where It's not on the stat sheet, but when he's on the field. He is Creating

28:59 Havoc in conflict in the In the opposing Team's offensive coordinator. Offensive line coach, how do we protect? And even in their play calling. During uh the game.

29:12 We might play a team that's very explosive, right? A team that likes to throw the ball down the field. Attack down the field. But a lot of times when they play us, they're going to speed it up. You it takes a little bit longer to throw the ball down the field, or they're gonna do quicker passes underneath passes. Лес данне філ пас, лес еплоси. What that now

29:34 forces the opposing offense to do is to earn right points. They have to go on longer drives. let's call eight to ten to twelve play drives to get a field goal or a touchdown. And the more plays they have, that's the The more chances. You know, they have a chance to make a mistake.

29:51 So if there's hidden production then th the there's also sort of like hidden over production in a way, right? Where people are getting credit Yeah. I wouldn't say it's undeserved, but maybe um they're getting the stat, whereas as as Donald is not. How do you think about that when it comes to sort of contract negotiations where somebody's like, I'm best in the league at all of these things? And

30:13 And you know, and part of that reason is because the this hidden production of other players. Definitely, and I think I think that's the nuances nuance. Of what we do. Uh on a daily basis. And we have seen some of our players, especially I mean in in particular on the defensive line, move on to other teams.

30:34 And be less productive. Right, because that other team might not have a an Aaron Donald, if the team that one of our defensive linemen went to doesn't have a player that maybe demands a double team.

30:47 Here or there. That players chances for for single teams. is is going to be lesser than he had with the Rams and production goes down. And and that's you're exactly right. What we would have to do Uh on the other side of that is when we're evaluating players.

31:03 What what scheme is he in? What players are he playing with What are his Robins actually? Doing to help. him have Batman like production and it and if we can't if we can't match that on our end, it's probably best not to to make that type of investment. And and that I think that's

31:22 Алатомні Сі Тим Hey Another player from another team. It makes news the player comes to your roster. And now he's one of your higher paid players.

31:34 That puts a little bit of a spotlight on the player. Uh huh. Right, your fans are looking at the player. And and and even that player now feels a d different Element of pressure.

31:45 that he might not have with the previous team, right? He might have been partnering with Aaron Donald and Okay, that there's an element of less anxiety and and then maybe that player now feels like I've gotta be An Aaron Donald and

31:58 So there there's a many of psychological layers that go into it that you see a lot of times Those type acquisitions. Don't pan out. Or or or might not It's better it'd be better to say this.

32:12 probably do not live up to speculative Expectations. But In some of those moments. hidden production.

32:19 uh is not measured. Well did you watch The Last Dance on Netflix with Michael Jordan? I did watch that. So so one of the elements is speaking of hidden production that stood out to me as a fan. uh was that

32:33 Jordan made the team better, not just on. the court when they were playing a game, but every practice. He wouldn't let anybody sort of half acid, he wouldn't let them give anything less than a hundred percent, or he would just go after them. Is there a value to players who do that too that we don't see as fans?

32:53 Spiral. We probably do not win the Super Bowl. If we do not trade for Von Miller. Not necessarily. For the sacks or him harassing the QB.

33:04 When he comes to work. Like he he's happy to come to work. Like he really likes going to a football law. There was this element right of of as we were getting closer to the playoffs. And he was able to connect With our Aaron Donald, our Jalen Ramsey, right? Because those two players, some of our best players on our team.

33:25 But they respected Vaughn. But in a in a very light way. And and he brought the replica, you know, he brought one of his uh his replica Super Bowl trophy. And Put it in our locker room.

33:38 uh right there when everybody went to get their New clean clothes, pick up their laundry for the day. Right, that trophy stared at you and he would handwrite a message. Right of What?

33:51 We needed to do That day. each day before each of our playoff games. And I and I do think I think when you're living through it All of a sudden you can feel it, but when you reverse engineer it.

34:03 After there's been this special result. You can probably See these pivotal moments where Wow. We traded for Von Miller, not Ness. We didn't know if he was gonna be a leader or not. We didn't know he would affect the passer.

34:17 But then you see that Hey, I've got one of these. I know Aaron, you really want one of these. I know Jalen, you really want one of these. Everyone else in life, you really want one of these. Let's go get one.

34:30 When you're not when when the team is sort of outside of a window of contention and you're more collecting talent at this point. How do you balance the the speed at which you can collect talent? versus being competitive on the field. And and I bring this up in the context of sort of Sam Prestey and Sam Hanke and what they've done in other leagues were They sort of uh

34:54 acknowledge what they're doing and tell everybody to trust the process and it looks bad for a year or two, but then they're back into contention. How do you think you put that? Those gentlemen you just mentioned, right? Very bright humans. Let's just say they're sitting in the room and they're designing their blueprint. Right and

35:12 And the and they may come up with We would love to have a We'd love to be a team like the the the Golden State Warriors and and shoot a lot of threes. And things and and you have this blueprint.

35:24 But Sometimes right, depending on What players, what human beings at what positions were born when Right. When when we go to build our team, right. Who's in the draft, we don't get to determine. So we may have penciled in, we really won't.

35:41 A QB. Well what if In this particular draft. There isn't a qb. What if in this predic particular draft You know, the other thirty one teams have a say too. So what if they get the QB

35:55 Бос So uh It's one thing to have a blueprint. But In the spirit of Annie Duke.

36:02 There's an element of poker involved and luck involved and Adding it all together if If good players at positions you've identified to really be How you're gonna build your team. They're just not born at a certain time, so maybe they're born a a year earlier and they're in the draft a year earlier.

36:18 Or a few years later. uh you miss out. And and going to the Aaron Don Donald story, when we drafted Aaron Donald with the second pick we had two first round picks then. So at that point in time we were in that building. We're going to try to collect as much talent as possible. Different than MBA probably we got a little bit easier. But when we picked Aaron Donald, we had drafted Michael Brockers a couple of years earlier with a first round pick.

36:41 We had a player named Kendall Langford who had been starting for us. And we had Chris Long and Robert Quinn. So Technically, we didn't need Aaron Don. We had a lot of other

36:54 positions of me. Now what what we were able to do, and I'm sure the basketball GMs are able to do too is is in the second third level thinking is going okay Robert Quinn at the time was a really good Passwash.

37:07 Chris Long was a good pass rusher. Oh. We have Michael Brockers. Oh. Less pass rusher, more run player.

37:15 But if we add Aaron Don Right. We add that piece. Maybe we don't need A defensive lineman, maybe now our team is actually imbalanced and we have too much resources.

37:28 in the defensive line. But what it was gonna do is lead to us affecting The passer. Right. And that's a very important thing in NFL. So when you do when you're collecting talent again, you're you're trying to collect Hello. So it

37:42 Pillars and have them grow together. And then once you break through, I think that's when Team builders probably need to be a little more specific, right? Uh, where sometimes you do draft for need. Because You have core pleas.

37:57 And maybe you need to draft for me because Right, you there's a there's a void there. And winning now. Right, winning this season's important

38:08 and maybe you pass on a player to another position who may be a little bit more talented. But You know what? The player that you need is actually good enough to Help you take care of the The business of contending.

38:21 Well when it comes to sort of players, you also operate in a salary cap. And so how do you think of this is an added wrinkle to all of this, right? So not only do you have this sort of like window of contention and You also have positional value. uh as it relates to the salary cap and And it seems like there's a general scorecard, at least going around the internet, where you know wide receivers are valued at X, quarterbacks are valued at Y.

38:48 How do you think about positional value in terms relative to what you can pay for the the best performer at that position. It's probably case by case. Probably depending on Year.

39:02 coaching staff. Scheme. Uh Yeah. I got where you where your

39:08 Where your bread is buttered. Here's here's what We did intentionally do. When we hired Sean is our head coach.

39:17 He believes in passing the football and having explosive pass plays. Right. to attack a defense that way to apply pressure at all times. That way.

39:29 on the defense. It's gonna give us the best chance to win, so That's that's Fast forward, that's that's a blueprint, that's a vision, and it's actually been working. So

39:40 What we've determined is In this moment of contention. with with Sean as our head coach with him calling plays. We're going to Way

39:50 A lot of three. wide receiver sets. We better have capable wide receivers ready to step in. So We probably been imbalanced at wide receiver and are eligible. Guys I call it catch the football, run the football, score touchdowns.

40:06 We've deemed based on who we are, based on our DNA, and Based on you know, our fastball that we're going to Pay eligible. Now some teams may not, right? They they

40:19 They may value may maybe there's a a a team with a defensive head coach who might want to run the ball more. So they may value offensive linemen more and be a little imbalanced there. So I think I think it's a team by team thing. And I I would probably Argue.

40:36 That І із провобій бере. To attempt to be dominant and imbalanced somewhere. Then be balanced in the fact that okay, we're gonna have we're gonna pay one wide receiver and then we're gonna pay

40:50 Two offensive linemen and we're gonna pay one. I to me that's That's on paper. That's a blueprint. That's not real life.

41:00 that might not be What gives a team an edge to to try to be one of thirty two. That might be a formula that okay, we can be You know, one of twelve you know, four out of five years.

41:14 So point being you ask how do we do it? We do know what Probably the league. When you aggregate Who's getting paid and at what positions? Probably with the league.

41:25 Values. Uh and you can probably look at each of the other thirty one teams and and break down their contracts and and figure out what their models are. But We do it based on hey it's it's case by case and In this particular I like to say, hey

41:39 How are we gonna win the game? Why are we why why are the Rams gonna contend? And it's right now it's Chong Vei. offensive points. Now we can't forget about the defense and we certainly can't forget about special teams. Talk to me a little bit about hiring Sean McBay. So up up until that point, he wasn't a head coach, he was an offensive coordinator. A lot of coordinators

42:00 Don't make the transition. coordinator to head coach. How do you think about that that leap and the job requirements being different? And and what accounts for most of the success or or or non success. The math is against a head coach from succeeding, right? So every year if there's

42:19 five to eight new head coaches, they're usually going to Right teams that haven't had a lot of success recently, and the success rate is The math is a is against you. So I think uh

42:31 Let's just say the the traits being Okay. Definitely need someone who can stand in front of Young men that are warriors, that are confident.

42:41 And have those men buy in and want to follow. Follow that coach. I would say Will they follow that coach up a hill? No. That's one thing, that's a very hard one to identify. The coach definitely needs in today's NFL.

42:55 Tactics are very important. The the coordinator the potential head coach needs to be an expert on the side of them. Uh and and then I do think a coach needs to be

43:07 There's an element of humility. And and we're gonna find that coaches are are very confident. They read it they better have efficacy. They better Not believe they can

43:16 win but know they can win and how. Right, and and they've done it. Somewhere else. It's it's not a false hope. But the humility part comes into this is Is

43:26 It takes A lot of people. Over the course of the You know, three hundred and sixty five days in a calendar year. to help a team.

43:36 Thrive on a journey. So The humility part Is when the coach Mm.

43:42 is really the The alpha liter of Probably the The team in the building. can be vulnerable enough to say

43:51 Okay, yeah, I'm not an expert. In this area. And I'm gonna delegate. That's tough for coaches to do, but what it It does do is

44:01 If you try to do everything Maybe you can do that a year or two, but at some point. There's gonna be an element of exhaustion. And also there there might be an element of Like you're deluding yourself, right? If if you're really good defensive

44:15 Play caller. But you're trying to help on special teams if you're trying to Micromanage what hotels uh a team stays at

44:25 When they play on the road. It could actually dilute you from right. What you're really good at. Sean checked all those boxes. And the biggest question with Sean

44:36 Was Is he too young? I mean, at the time he was thirty years old. The one thing that really tipped us and said, All right, let's Let's shoot the cannonball for Sean would be

44:47 When we chatted with players that he coached. Each one of them to a T. articulated back to us and sometimes this is done through an agent. It n number one, it was funny, a few of them said Why haven't they hired him yet? They should have hired him yesterday.

45:01 But in each case, right, each player said, Hey This guy Commanded The room. This guy

45:08 They would run through a wall for him and The third thing is They said hі t. football he simplified Complex football.

45:17 Better than any coach they had ever been a part of and and there was even some defensive players who said that they would sit with Sean and He would articulate what an offense is is trying to do. And they would even learn. How to play better defense.

45:32 And then and then we ended up Pairing shown. Where the Marshall Falk at a dinner with our owner. Stan Cronky. So Marsh Falk was a long time St. Louis Ram legend back in the greatest show on turf, but

45:45 Knowing Marshall Marshall's a very intelligent football player. So For him to respect you and follow you up that hill analogy. He'll follow you up the hill if he knows that.

45:56 you're going to put right the team in position to thrive, dominate, not just get by. And You know, at that dinner, it was one of those where I think Stan could just sit there and listen to Sean and Marshall.

46:10 Top football. Now you're able to say all right, you know what age is Age is not a let's let's shoot the cannonball. And harself. I I wanna switch gears a little bit to sort of like drafting and acquiring players and

46:23 I I think It's very difficult to assess a player's true character. What are some of the metrics that you use as well as questions that you might ask when you get a chance to interview them? uh before either trading for them or signing them at free agency or This one's a this is a very good calculus Formula and simple, it starts with, we like to say There's an element of physical talent.

46:48 And you add it with the players in tangibles. then the other other side of the equation is gonna equal A useful skill in the NFL. We break it down into what we call football character, personal character, and then there's this element of we call it football acumen. And we use a lot of uh

47:05 Probably independent test. to to help us decide this, but I often say when you're going to pick a defensive lineman. It might be different than one of the major consulting firms, right? Looking at MBA students.

47:20 There's a different job requirement so we've actually partnered at times with the the military with some of their tests in the Hey, there's an element to To be able to measure someone's combative attitude.

47:32 on the battlefield. But also be a useful citizen. In public. And then it gets into the the similar stuff that

47:41 Have us all sort, you know, throb is is elements of conscientiousness. and and th and things like that. And and then one of the the third equation to that is The ability and it Uh Learn football and process football. So there's an element in going to the

47:58 The military. We we have some testing that can measure someone's ability. capacity to Intake. And accurately recognize patterns.

48:09 Yeah, part of that test is how fast can you do that? There is a possibility that your brain you were born with a brain that wow you can really accurately identify pattern recognition. And the reason we do pattern recognition is because football's a lot of There's a lot of pattern recognition. So in the military, if somebody's very, very accurate accurately recognizing these patterns, but they analyze it, takes them a little slower to do it.

48:34 They made better suited for maybe a job at the Pentagon. Type job. Right. Or Or someone who's

48:41 Designing plans but not necessarily executing them where You the soldier on the battlefield, and especially when you start getting in some of the elite forces. Right. They they've gotta be able to do Both, right.

48:54 Identify patterns accurately, but also really, really fast. And when black and white Turn grey, no the best solution to to thrive in that moment and not necessarily

49:07 sit down and and wanna write out the pros and cons in over and over. So Uh that's that's one of uh that's a very important important part of the intangible thing. And at the end of the day Everyone in the NFL is

49:21 has the physical ability Right, to play football. Or they wouldn't be there. Some Players have the physical ability, mom, dad. God

49:32 genetics. To be Hall of Famers. Some Do not and they may never. make it to the hall of fame, but I think in this equation

49:41 The players that probably become famous are the ones that are gifted genetically with that physical talent. But they also Or gifted, right? Or have been socialized or mentored.

49:53 The conscientiousness to prioritize They're Life's work. and dive into it and get better and they've been gifted with the ability to process things quickly.

50:04 Things like that. And then it it the the players maybe that have that talent. that don't necessarily live up to those expectations are probably missing, you know, some element of the intangible. And I think the The interesting thing about it is we're dealing with

50:19 Very, very young men always say they when we draft them, they can't rent a car. There's a reason they can't rent a car, right? Their funnel no Frontal lobe has not evolved yet. So That's a it's a it's a fun calculus equation and Each player's different, but that's and simple it in Simplicity, that's it.

50:36 What are the intangibles that sort of stand out if you were to like create a list of five, what would be the first five that you would write down? I think the first five so let's go in tangle. I think number one would be passion. To be a part of football. That's gotta be the player's North Star. There's the element of when

50:54 The The human really identifies and really Gets in a flow. by actually coming to the football facility and and let's call it studying football, studying how to get better.

51:06 And also working physically to to to have their body, you know. In prime condition when it counts. Those people succeed, uh I think it I think the next thing would definitely be the ability to

51:19 to to process the geometry of the game. I do think there's a a a love of winning because there There there is a subset of humans that would be that may be passionate about football, may have the acumen the the ability to process football, but the love of winning would be if they had a choice between Let's call it having a winning season or being the the receiver who caught the most yards, they would choose winning season. Even though there is an element there if you

51:46 If you're If you lead the league in receiving yards, there could be more financial rewards. So so those are definitely Those are definitely three I do think. Conscientiousness is one thing like if you're gonna put in the work You definitely have a chance. And and the other one is is the element to handle pressure situations.

52:06 Uh, and I was gonna say the the confidence to to know that you're gonna thrive in those situations. And some some people it can be overwhelming and and very stressful and Where that takes a toll on the human, so A lot of players have like a um you know, in college they have like a momentary lapse in judgment or

52:25 They do something serious, like robbery, or there's allegations of sexual misconduct. um or domestic violence. How do you think through those issues when it comes to drafting a player. Um Seems like most teams serve

52:40 Um still draft players with uh some of that baggage. How do you decide when When to do that and when no, I'm not gonna touch those. This is This is not too bad. Yeah.

52:52 Great question, case by case. We spend a lot of work. On those player so I think each year. There's gonna be a subset o of those players and early in the down, right? We have to decide. Are we just going to eliminate them?

53:08 From our thought process. Because they will, you know. Figuring That out will take more energy than right than the player who just checks all the boxes and it and it becomes a little easier.

53:19 So I I think that's number one. There's always uh Element of How talented are are they? Uh, because this is a you know this is a game where I I s when I said football's physics and geometry, physics means something, right? If you just

53:34 If you're just bigger And faster and stronger, more powerful, and more explosive in a short area. And another human being. But you can you can have a lot of wind.

53:45 on a on a football field individually. Once we get to the point, and I I say this all the time, it We're dealing with young men. Uh we're dealing with Lotta times we're drafting from college, so

53:57 When we were all in college, they were probably we were all immature and probably did things we regret, but there is some different levels of of the immature incidents that you have that at that point we have to dig into. We we bring in a lot of Experts again.

54:11 Used uh psychological testing. One one we partnered with a group that began it, you know, they they actually they're actually screening for You know, soldiers Maybe they'd just sign up for basic training and and have something to'em that could be, you know, that could lead to

54:28 The special forces, the elite teams. We go to their hometowns and chat with the coaches and teachers and mentors and Get the complete picture. And

54:39 Figure out If the young man Right. is worthy. I mean, we're we're all worthy of a of a second chance. So there could be an element if this is a pattern and this is going to be Fiftieth chance that

54:50 That probably means something. But I think at that point you d we we have to really get to know the person and and The person Has to be receptive, right, to development, receptive to things that are not just Let's call it hey, listening to your position, coach, but or or are you willing to build a relationship with one of our professional counselors there?

55:10 We consult with to help provid. the individual right with tools that maybe His background his sociologie didn't provide those tools. And at that point we we really spend time on them and when we feel like you know, it's it's worth taking the risk, right? And and maybe you draft them a little bit later.

55:29 Because when a draft class comes in, it's almost like That's your freshman class. It's almost like that's your That's your freshman fraternity class. Yeah. Whatever. That's kinda your your your gang, your tribe that you're gonna hang with.

55:43 So there's moments where you go, Hey, let's let's draft a lot of A plus kids, and then maybe we'll put in One C kid intangibly, C minus kid intangibly. And and definitely hope that Right.

55:57 The gang, the tribe there. We'll bring you on and our culture as a whole. So there's a lot of strategies that go into into when you really dig into hey is is that a You know, an immature incident, is it just a college incident? Is it a You know, it's just you know that's that maybe normal.

56:15 in in the person's background and you try to figure out is okay If it actually is a destructive behavior Right. Will they uh will the player determine And use our resources to

56:26 Let's call it uh consistently Behave more productively. Do you pay attention to the mock drafts at all that everybody sort of like seems to publish on like ESPN? W I would the answer is yes. I would the the interesting thing, I I don't necessarily Read them. Let's call it for

56:42 entertainment pur purposes, but It is fascinating how many people And smart people Interested in the draft. And uh so what we do in our our analytics department

56:54 Definitely monitors the mock drafts in in you're able to blend up the mock drafts and and they and they aggregate them And what it what it Probably does is is let you know. Right, if if a

57:09 Where the player Is most probable of getting picked in there. in the draft. And it it's not gonna be down to the number of like oh this guy's twenty eight, so he's probably going twenty eight. If if a player has an aggregate draft,

57:23 I mean mock draft of the twenty eighth pick in the draft. That's first round, but late first round. our research probably shows that player's probably going Definitely In the first

57:36 Might not. be the first round, but For the most part he's probably going in the in the first three rounds and probably even the the first two rounds. So you can use it, you know, in in those types of way. Now the f the farther you get back in the draft.

57:50 It's interesting the What are Analytics group has has come up with in the you know the farther people fall in the draft it's a little harder to predict. But

57:59 There's definitely uh ways you can utilize. you know the mock drafts to your advantage of of I'm just knowing Where the player is most likely to be draft. And and sometimes I mean they're they're

58:13 They're completely off. I I think it was you and Sean who were are uh caught on TV sort of when the New England Patriots uh picked Cole Strange in the first round. And y I think the projection was you guys had the him in the third round. How do you think about a pick like that where it just sort of like breaks these um models that other people have. Well y i that's a that's an interesting one because that that video You want to call I guess it would be

58:39 My teenagers would say it went viral, right? In in a sense, it a lot of people watched it real quickly. And the there was an element that got taken out of context. That okay. Sean and I were Let's call it marking

58:51 New England. So Sean at Sean apologized to Bill. Obviously it didn't. Bother Bill a lot. There's not a lot that that bothers him. We actually called the player Great guy. But here here's what the

59:03 Where a player is projected to go. Pre draft, I call that speculation, right? By by third parties. And then where a player It's drafted. Is I call that his IPO.

59:16 And then at the end of the day, what he does after that pick. Is his stock price, right? And that's the that's the most important thing. In this instance. When we first started our process probably I mean usually it's a two year process, but let's call it early fall.

59:30 He's uh a young man at Tennessee Chattanooga, which is an FCS school. You know, not power five, not group of five. uh the the the third level down. We at that point we had a second rounder. But then we traded that for Vaughn and we we were left with a third rounder. But through the process

59:48 Cole strange is someone we watched initially, but Then that player went to uh the all star game. So the senior bowl is the Is where the The best senior talent.

59:59 uh in the N F L draft who elect to go to an all star game, they usually go to the senior. Well he went to the senior bowl and he really, really had a good week there. So Once a player at a lower or a lesser level of football has a good all star game.

1:00:13 That user means uh oh, he is his his stock uh if you call his speculative Draft position would be Are heading farther from the let's call it our third round. And then he then he went to the combat and he really

1:00:26 blew the combine drills out. Which they're not football drills, they're more Football is quantum, that whole processing Right. physics geometry comes in it, but a lot of times the combine drills, I call them more linear They're kind of A to B to C. You can train for them. You don't have to think. You don't have to process. It's not read, run, or pass. It's it's just trying to be as fast.

1:00:48 or as explosive as possible. But at that point in time, but he really dominated those. So point being We really knew at the time, okay, Cole strange will not be there. with our third round, but we had done some work on him. So in in that video Sean was really uh mocking myself

1:01:07 For hey, I can't believe you had us. you know, wasting time on Cold Strange when he was gonna go. early anyway. But As I Can't say w when you're

1:01:17 You're trying to figure you're using mocks and things like that to figure out uh who's gonna be there in the third round. You really have to You had to do your work on I I would say preparation's better than being surprised. So being prepared. So But the interesting thing about that I think

1:01:34 Where New England got. Here's the bias that comes into that. The New England Platrians have been Really good. And They probably know what they're doing.

1:01:45 Cole Strange had a good career at Chattanooga. He just happened to be an undersized kid coming out of high school, didn't get, you know, went to Chattanooga instead of the University of Tennessee. Proved it at the all star game. proved it at the combine, again at the pro day, this kid The laws. Well the

1:02:02 The bias that gets in the Oh The patriots reached Is is that whole. You had third party people saying this is

1:02:11 Right, this guy's either a second or third round. Graduate. Well, New England traded back in that draft. And then they determined They would take him at r uh let's call it pick twenty eight.

1:02:22 Instead of maybe pick Thirty nine. But Right, on a vertical board with twenty two positions. I mean the difference between twenty eight And thirty nine.

1:02:33 is really not a reach. Let's just say We said Pick twenty eight was a reach. Well

1:02:41 There's twenty two positions on the field. So my point being if you pick the next best twenty two players. What is twenty eight plus twenty two? Fifty. So that I would my point being is this is

1:02:53 The next best guard could be picked fifty one, right? You see what I'm saying? If that was Cold Strange was That guard. And then you go twenty two other positions. So right around fifty fifty one will be the next score. So I try to get people to to think. that way so it's not necessarily The difference between the twenty eighth pick and the fiftieth pick.

1:03:15 Is is It's probably a lot less. Than most fans the naked eye. Interpret. That's really interesting to think about. It seems that I mean Belichick's earned the right to do whatever he wants in the draft at this point, right?

1:03:30 Um, I kinda like the controversy around it as a as a fan,'cause I I think it brings people on attention to smaller schools and And and now What's what is interesting probably in in today in the media climate covering football today, right in And I wouldn't say it's the it's the media's fault, it's probably the consumer's fault. The first round is really, really covered.

1:03:51 uh so probably Eight years ago. I mean, there was a there was a little more nuance in in in in And analysts were talking about second, third, and even fourth round. Okay.

1:04:02 But That doesn't sell anymore, that doesn't get clicks anymore. So I think what happens is The general fans are primed in seeing a certain amount of players mocking in the first round.

1:04:15 And then When all of a sudden a stranger no pun intended call strange Pops into the first round. Oh, it's like Wow.

1:04:24 How is that possible they've reached? Yes, and so I I think it's um No, it's funny because it I mean, if the if the media could draft players, they'd be NFL GMs, right? Uh that and I and I would say some media Probably could and and could do A solid job of it. What a lot of times the media doesn't necessarily know either, right? It is some of like like we said, some of the intimate

1:04:49 Intangible Research that's been done and and also some of the intimate Uh.

1:04:56 Medical research. That's been done and So each of these players are gonna get an extensive physical. Now what it usually means is most of these players can play football. Some of them I mean there's

1:05:09 There's some tough stories where all of a sudden maybe your spinal column is is too narrow and it makes it a very, very dangerous proposition. And now there's a decision to be made. Retirement. But a lot of times what the media, what the general public doesn't know is maybe maybe has an arthritic knee, right? And

1:05:27 And so his his knee only has so many reps in his body and it it's just Aged for whatever reason. He has an older knee than his Age. So a lot of times some of those things Come into play that

1:05:39 Isn't speculated about because it is Intimate. Oh, just When we were chatting last you said you and your wife were author stalkers. And I'm curious as to some examples that where you've taken knowledge from other domains and applied it to football. Going back to when we talked about growing up growing up in a small town.

1:05:58 probably cared too much about football or more than I should. Somewhere along the way I said you know what? I really appreciate it. A liberal education. Probably early two thousand.

1:06:10 And it was actually Jim Collins book Good to Great. Where I sat down and read that book. And And had this wow moment of like Holy cow, there's a whole nother world out there. And that and that's not I'm not gonna say that's a a let's call it the required reading in in the in the in the liberal arts, but

1:06:28 But from that moment on, uh I did figure out that For the first time ever, my English teacher Right, what what she was planning in me that hey Reading

1:06:40 It's gonna open you up. uh to some new worlds. gonna be very beneficial impactful in your life. That she was planting those seeds and I promise you I was digging them up and throwing them back at her. I I have a fear of being bored, so Reading interesting stuff definitely occupies the mind I

1:06:58 A major fear of losing. Like Losing is so painful. I mean, like winning doesn't mean winning's just I call it winning's your job. Losing

1:07:09 There's a stress in Dr. Ray tax. to losing it. It takes a toll. So I think the fear of losing is like who can I talk to? Who can I meet? What can I read? Will that actually help?

1:07:21 the Rams gain any any any type of edge. So again, that's the the author starts so when when we sit down and we read a book and we think My wife Kira does an unbelievable job. She knows football. So she has a background in covering football in the media. So she's nuanced. So she can read something, pass it along to myself and She synthesizes right.

1:07:42 This концеп, десь ідея. This insight, this wisdom and I'm one of those that when I read something, I like to really study it. I I have a fear of like did I get the most out of that book? Like there's some books you read in UK I I generally Enjoyed it and there's

1:07:58 But then there's these where you I put in a pile and I'm like I gotta get back to that. What am I missing? That thing was so impactful. And it's usually those Those authors that I go, okay. If they'll chat with us. Uh we'll reach out.

1:08:12 Fortunately in in my position, fortune because a lot of Lot of Pippo Appreciate professional sports. When we have stalked them.

1:08:21 Uh. Baby mail back. Of course. Um Y your wife Kara set up a a T for you and Jim Collins. I I'm curious as to some of the w what did you take away from that? We can go on for

1:08:36 for many days. So going back to good to great. Ладо да вуз. You could synthesize it to to building a team. So and and I have re read that book and I mean it is it is marked up, it is penciled in and

1:08:50 It is old and It's awesome. Jim's even signed it now, but So it was it was probably the it would be it would be Май професіонал байбол. And even when I got the second chance.

1:09:02 From two thousand twelve to two thousand sixteen when we did when when uh our ownership moved on from Jeff, our coach, I could have easily I could he I could have easily been uh part of that attrition as well. Just we hadn't We've gotten close, we just hadn't pushed it over the top, but when

1:09:18 We got that second chance. Definitely was I was definitely determined. Like What? Can I do differently? And then in hopes of what can we do differently. As an organization, so she having to reach out to Jim.

1:09:32 uh for birthday present. And We were lucky that the person who was vetting our email, she was a She happened to play College soccer.

1:09:41 at Florida. So it was interesting. She said and she has said since that she went to gym and going, Hey, you've never really delved into sports, this might be interesting. But it's probably because of By her passion. For sport. So

1:09:54 That's the long story. Ended up going to the T He gets in the flow by research. So Hіз каландер гі. It's blocked, it's guarded, so that he can do his research.

1:10:05 Uh, but there obviously he probably has I mean he does consulting and and people come to visit things like that, but he does have these things he called tees where you would come in for fifteen minutes. And uh take winning the Super Bowl out probably the the best accomplishment or the most fulfilling accomplishment was when uh I call it the gatekeeper kept coming in and saying, Hey Jim

1:10:25 We're at twenty minutes is the It was like Finally he said, You know what? Clear the rest of the schedule. Call my wife.

1:10:33 Tell her we're gonna Order out. I'm having a interesting conversation. It was like you know what, I can retire now. Jim Collins is clear clear this afternoon to talk to me. Very fortunate then in Jim. Really, really

1:10:47 I call it. I'm a pro I guess I'd be I'm a pro bono mentee of his, and I do think Jim is so curious. He termed І ліс diving into our organization, right, that

1:10:59 Whether it's our organization, whether it's uh professional sports. It could be One of the more sophisticated like human collaboration projects. going in that there's a lot of people

1:11:11 That are somewhat in silos. But need to work together symbiotically. in the same dr direction to thrive to have a chance in battle and And and football is very similar to Jim's Flywheel, right? There's like we talked about, there's only so many games and there's a lot of days and

1:11:28 There's an element of monotony to it where you have to keep just Coming in and and Where where where where is there a league today? How how do we Not only fix the leak, but design something where there it no longer leaks and things like that. So there's an element of monotony

1:11:44 to it where you just keep Going away and then there's that moment of A breakthrough. And you really can't pinpoint it like like Jim would say, there's not this one moment. It was a lot moment.

1:11:56 uh as you put you know you turn that flywheel that compounded into Breaking through and now contending. Well talk to me about that flywheel. It it starts with keep the main thing the main thing. The main thing it it would seem Very simple, but we're in the entertainment business. There's a lot

1:12:12 You know, the NFL's a big entity, it's a big entertainment thing, but What are you spending eighty percent on of your time on? So How do we continue contending? And

1:12:22 What do we got to do today? Now Right. The big Pinterest

1:12:29 From the organization, but Now when we sit down in our department, right, our Ar offense staff, our defense staff, our special teams. staff, our athletic performance staff. So that's a staff that's Yeah, we'll

1:12:42 Will be in the Improving the physical development are training medical staff and that's Hey. Preventing injury and and and rehabbing injury are

1:12:53 Uh player engagement psychological staff where you're improving and providing tools that Have the best. mental health as as possible, the best mentality so The nutrition

1:13:06 There's so many Silo expert department expertise type departments in the building that Like they now have to go, okay. On this

1:13:17 Wednesday Or this Friday in May. What do we do today? to write help the rounds continue contending. So that's

1:13:27 It's really trying to take a big concept. Wow, how do you contend in the NFL? But uh reasoning behind it is okay it's it's really just that simple. I in my day.

1:13:39 It's gonna be different than Sean's day is gonna be different than Raheem Morris, our defense coordinator's day, it's gonna be different than Reggie Scott are director of you know, our VP of athletic performances today.

1:13:52 Because they they They're experts in these domains. And then at the end of the day, it's up to us to Come together symbiotically. When you get stressed about something, what is it that you have to remind yourself?

1:14:04 I think I actually Maybe in a sick way. like stressful situations or I I think that's a genetic gift. I don't know if I learned that. I've tried to really journal and and kind of figure out when that occurred. But fortunately for me, when there's a stressful situation.

1:14:20 I'm normally at my calmest. And maybe that's because I I have evolved in in the In in the chair of general manager, you do realize when there are some stressful moments that there are probably eyes on you. So there is an awareness there, but

1:14:38 I think if if there wasn't some sort of genetic gift where You I truly believe that okay. I've talked with Ron Holiday about this. He wrote the book. You know, the obstacle is away. Okay, there's an obstacle there. I mean, wow, this is this is actually an opportunity, right? To to grow from that obstacle. Maybe in in a in a sick way it's

1:14:59 There's an adrenaline moment of like wow, this is This is really living. Now I am fortunate and I'll I'll use the asterisk. Right. where I'm sure a lot of people listening to this podcast and and maybe have been on it. I I've never

1:15:13 I've never had to deal with major personal tragedy or health issue or You know. Some set of Losing some job that calls the

1:15:23 a major financial stress. So I'm fortunate in those and I'm not saying Uh I would hope that I would react. So a lot of the The stress And anxiety comes right professionally.

1:15:36 But you know, raising children, things like that, you're gonna go through those moments, but Even in those moments with children. And They failed, they've made eras. you as a father you're trying to

1:15:49 Oh we like to say sometimes just go outside, lay down, look up at the stars and And there's that meditative where okay, this is a big planet. Tomorrow's probably gonna be here. And

1:16:02 Whatever happened today, there's a chance it gets better tomorrow. And what I do know is once the emotions of whatever happened dissipates there's actually a a learning up uh You know, there's an adventure to be had. There's a There's a chance to grow for it. So Mm.

1:16:17 with that. So I I do think uh I'm blessed to He was my high school coach, Wayne Woodham, as you think, so you become the it was some of the stoic philosophy. Uh But somehow I do think Shame that I was

1:16:30 I've got some stoic DNA in me somehow. Maybe it's that morning plunge I do in the Pacific. Where every every morning the one of the first things I do within the first thirty minutes of of waking up. When I am in California is I I don't

1:16:45 Dive into the Pacific Ocean. jump start, I would say the ignite your day. Yeah, that that that'll get you going for sure. Um F a final question. Uh what does success mean to you? Success.

1:16:59 Wow. Good one. Uh When I was a Kid growing up in sports, like it would Again, small town Alabama, so we played tennis, but I

1:17:07 I really enjoyed like doubles tennis and not. Singles. So it's twofold. Did I really Appreciate

1:17:15 Teamwork collaboration. Or was I just not really good at Tenants than I needed. You know, a partner to To bail me out.

1:17:22 Uh Same with when I did play golf in high school, you know, the the The team winning verse. A good score individually.

1:17:31 meant something. Success now. Is Can I do my part as a leader, right? So that

1:17:39 our we has a chance to experience. That fulfilling moment. That's special, yes. But also Are we

1:17:47 Actually has a chance to Have a meaningful, impactful Experience along, you know. the journey that we're gonna have together in professional sports because that's that's very

1:17:59 fortunate. So I I think and and and as I get to an age now. where I've been fortunate enough to be a GM for for 10 years, there's that element of now of okay, success might be what do I knew need to do now to maybe give back. right to the game. In in this pr particular case, my life work's been football. I mentioned earlier I was raised by football. Football

1:18:21 At all levels, teachers, coaches, mean a lot. So what can I do? Right to give back. To the game. And in the Big picture of the planet.

1:18:31 I'm just in football. And somebody else is in another domain. You're in your domain. And we're all diving in, right, trying to somehow make an impact.

1:18:41 And then That all works together symbiotically for Hopefully yeah. Better experience on this planet. That's great. Thank you so much for taking the time today.

1:18:57 Oh I I really enjoyed it. The Knowledge Project is produced by the team at Farnham Street. I'd love to get your advice on how to make this the most valuable podcast you listen to. Email me at shane at fs.blog You can learn more about the show and find past episodes at FS dot blog slash podcast.

1:19:26 To get a transcript of this episode, go to fs.blog slash tribe or check out the show notes. Can you do me a small favor? Go online right now and share this episode with one friend who you think would love it. Thanks and learning with us. Till next time.

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