#339 Joseph Duveen: Robber Baron Art Dealer

0:00 Two quick things before we jump into this episode on Joseph Devine. I just finished listening to this entire episode. It is a wild episode. Imagine building your business. based on a handful of clients. The only your business only has a handful of clients, but those clients are the wealthiest some of the wealthiest people in the world. That is the episode that you're about to hear. Before we jump into that two quick things. If you've been dilly dallying about investing in a subscription to Founders Notes, you might want to do that now for the first time ever and for a limited time only. I got a bunch of requests asking if you could do a one time option.

0:32 And so I'm currently testing that right now. You can get access by going to foundersnotes.com. That is founders with an S, founders notes.com. I haven't even mentioned it publicly, and people are already selecting that option. So again, the one time is for a limited time only. Founders notes dot com. I'll talk more about that at the end. The second thing real quick is Patrick O'Shaughnessy from the Invest Like the Best Podcast and I are looking for partners. If you are building B2B products and you'd be interested in partnering with Patrick and I, you can go to founderspodcast dot com forward slash partnerships. That is partnerships with an S. There you can tell us about what you're working on and then get in touch. Again, that is founderspodcast.com force slash Partnerships. So that's it. Let's jump into this episode. I just finished listening to it. I loved it. I hope you do too.

1:14 Joseph Devine noticed that Europe Had plenty of art. And America had plenty of money. And his entire astonishing career was the product of that one simple observation.

1:26 Beginning in eighteen eighty six, when he was seventeen. He was perpetually journeying between Europe and Where he stocked up on merchandise. And America. Where he sold that merchandise.

1:37 There was almost nothing Duvine wouldn't do for his important clients. These immensely rich Americans were shy and suspicious of casual contacts and Because of their wealth. And often didn't know where to go. or what to do with themselves when they traveled abroad.

1:51 Duvine provided them with an entrance to the great country homes of the European nobility. It was just a coincidence, a fabricated uh coincidence, which you and I will talk about. a few times today. That Devine always did. There's nothing as you'll see as we go through this, there's nothing in this guy's life and career.

2:09 That was a coincidence. Uh so he'd provide Rich Americans. entrance into these country homes of European nobility. These homes were sta were

2:20 Pool. of Ancestral portraits. That were for sale. Davine also wrangled hotel accommodations and passage on sold out chips for his clients.

2:30 He got his clients houses, and he provided architects to build them houses. And then he saw to it that the architects Plan the interiors of these houses. with wall space That demanded plenty of pictures.

2:43 He even selected brides for some of his clients. These selections of potential brides had to meet the same refined standard. That governed his choice. of houses for his clients. Which meant

2:55 A bride that was receptive to collecting expensive art. Duvine was not a patient man. He had choleric imperialism. And he felt that the world must stop. While he got what he wanted. He had a convulsive drive.

3:10 A boundless and explosive fervor. And a reckless contempt for works of art handled. By rival dealers. That's a funny way to say that he was extremely, extremely competitive. Uh one time in New York, a millionaire collector who was so undisciplined.

3:24 that he was thinking of buying a sixteenth century Italian painting. From another art dealer. Ask Duvine. To come to his mansion on Fifth Avenue to take a look at it. The prospective buyer watched Duvine's face closely.

3:37 And he saw his nostrils quiver. I sniff. Fresh paint, said Duvine. Duvine's remarks about other people's pictures sometimes resulted in lawsuits that lasted for years. Cost him hundreds of thousands of dollars.

3:51 And brought him into courts in New York and London and Paris. In his business Duvine had to bear that the temperaments of the men that he dealt with were the direct opposite of his own. The great American millionaires of the Davine era. We're slow speaking.

4:06 And slow thinking. And cautious. And secretive. And deliberate. They were the emperors of oil and steel.

4:14 Of department stores and railroads and newspapers. Of stocks and bonds. of utilities and banking. And these men had trained themselves to talk slowly. And pause.

4:24 Before each word. Davine dealt constantly with cryptic men Like JP Morgan. And Henry Clay Frick. And Andrew Mellon.

4:33 That was an excerpt from this long form two part New Yorker profile that I'm gonna talk to you about today. It's called The Days of Duvine. A legendary art dealer and his clients, and it's written by S N Burnham. All the way back in nineteen fifty one. And before I jump back into the profile, I want to tell you how This came on my radar.

4:51 A few months ago when I was researching And reading about Larry Gagosian, which is the billionaire art dealer. Uh that was episode three twenty five. I mentioned this theme that seems to appear over and over again that there's always a blueprint. And so there's somebody doing something now and they were heavily influenced or got the idea from somebody that

5:08 Lived. uh a long time before them. And so Larry Gagosian's alive and operating to this day. But almost a hundred years ago, Joseph Duvine built a career that Larry used as a blueprint. In fact, in that piece, I'm reading from Episode three twenty five, it says Gagosian isn't the first to pull this off. He's a big reader. And one of his favorite subjects is the life of Joseph Duvine, the great art dealer who helped assemble the collections of Andrew Mellon, JP Morgan, and other Gilded Age Titans. There are several biographies of Duvine, and Gagosian informed me that he has read them all.

5:39 And so shortly after that episode came out Uh, Will England, who's the CEO of Walleye Capital, texted me and he says, Hey, just so you know. Uh Robert the author Robert Green uh mentions Joseph Devine in a bunch of his books, like the Forty Eight Laws of Power and the Thirty Three Sh uh Strategy of War. And so in addition to this two part

5:56 New Yorker profile. Uh, there's several highlights. uh from Robert Green talking about how Devine That's the strategy that Davine used to build his business. And by the way, just in case you haven't listened to it yet. One of my favorite episodes uh from last year.

6:10 was on Invest Like the Best. It's Invest Like the Best number three forty two. It's actually Will England. The title is a primer on multi strategy hedge funds and I just happened to be lucky enough to be there that day that they recorded it. So I got to spend a few hours with Will. And he has two of my favorite tr traits.

6:25 uh intelligence combined with intensity. And so I wanna j right back into Divine. Uh main thing that you and I are gonna talk about today is the fact that with the everything is calculated with him. Uh, which you mean nothing is accidental. Uh, in many cases he goes out of his way to disguise his cleverness. So

6:40 I wanna review just a couple um ideas that that I found fascinating. From that introduction. was the fact that hey Yeah.

6:50 on a combination of two ideas, right? It's like this guy just noticed, hey Uh Europe has plenty of art. At the time he's living this late eighteen hundreds, early nineteen hundreds, right? When he's building his business. Uh.

7:01 Europe has plenty of art. No money. America has plenty of money. And I love that line where it's like his entire astonishing career was the product of that simple observation. So something I thought about as I read that. was it's a combination of two of my favorite ideas.

7:13 One came from Charlie Munger that I've thought about for years, and it's really what I'm trying to do with with Founders Podcast is hey, find a simple idea and take that idea. Seriously. I found that idea when I read Poor Charles Dominic many, many years ago for the first time. Uh'cause in that book. Charlie says there's an old two part rule that often works wonders in business and science and elsewhere.

7:33 It is take a simple, basic idea and take it very seriously. And then the second idea that came to mind actually came from the Larry Gagosian profile and I have n I've thought about this idea every week in since I've first discovered it in the Larry Gagosian profile and it's actually been uh on my mind and influencing my decisions constantly, and it's that genius has the fewest moving parts.

7:57 Joseph Duvine becomes fabulously wealthy. builds an incredible life and business off of That simple idea. His business had very few moving parts. Like, hey, I'm gonna buy All this Hard to find art in Europe.

8:10 And I'm going to connect that. I'm going to then take it across. the Atlantic Ocean and sell it to the rich robber barons in America. That's his entire business and everything he does, because Genius has a few moving parts, it allows him to think about it in ways. Where if you spread yourself thin or you're working on a million different things. You're not going to come up with the ideas that he does. So one example of this is that he he was a big believer in practice. And so

8:31 What would happen is He first of all, he built his entire freaking business off of just a handful of clients, which obviously if you're If your clients are the richest people in the world, you don't need that many of them, right? But what would he do is he would study them intently. You get to know like

8:44 their their tastes, their traits, their personality, what's important to him. And then he would build like these little models of How this person acts or thinks. And he would explain that to his secretary. And so the day before

8:57 Th he's got let's say he's got an appointment tomorrow with Andrew Mellon or Henry Clay Frick or you know, a ton of these people that you and I've studied. I've done episodes on all these people. It's a really cool Uh how many people That are mentioned in this article. uh in this profile that I've done

9:12 Multiple episode time. But let's say he's gonna meet with them tomorrow, right? The day before He will have literally act out. How that interview is likely to go, how that sales process is likely to go. He will map out all the strategic possibilities. He will rehearse it.

9:26 And then by the time he's in person with the client, it almost seems like second nature. Like, oh, this is just for the moment. When it's no, everything with this guy is extremely, extremely Methodical. Uh another thing that I I noticed which is f very fascinating and something I I believe Uh whole heartedly. the the enthusiasm that you have for your product is transferable to other people.

9:45 And Everybody talks to me, he's like he's he's he they talk over and over again about his enthusiasm, the fact that he was fun to be around, the fact that he was super excited about what he was doing. And so it says there was never there was never any doubts in his own mind. Each picture. So Remember, this is written back in nineteen fifty one. They use the word picture. I think today you and I would use the word painting.

10:05 Uh so says there were never any doubts in his mind. Each painting he had to sell, each piece of sculpture was the greatest since the last one. And until The next one. And the reason he was the most successful art dealer of all time until Larry Gagosian. I think now obviously Larry Goes and has surpassed him, obviously.

10:23 you know, standing on the the Gagosine is standing on the shoulders of giants, one of those giants being Duvine. was the fact that he was obsessed during was obsessed With Scarcity and controlling supply. And so what he would say is he he would tell his clients, they could replace the money that they have many times over.

10:39 But they were acquiring the irreplaceable When they bought a Duvine. And so let me give you a little summary of this. I'm gonna put this down. Pick up forty eight laws of power. This is what is in the book.

10:51 On This idea of the importance of scarcity and controlling supply to Devine's business. The art dealer Joseph Devine insisted on making the paintings he sold as scarce and as rare as possible. To keep their prices elevated and their status high. He bought up entire collections. And stored them in his basement.

11:07 The paintings that he sold became more than just paintings. They were fetish objects. Their value was increased by their rarity. He was intent. Over and over again he wanted to control supply. He bought entire collections, he'd pay Higher prices than anybody else.

11:22 And then He would stimulate demand by saying, Hey There's only one of these. But there's t I got ten clients just like you. And if you don't buy this

11:30 I'm gonna pick up the phone, I'm gonna walk down the street and gonna sell to somebody else. Making his clients conscious that whereas he had unique access to great art, his outlets for it Were multiple. He watched their doubts about the prices of the art evolving into more acute doubts. About whether he would let them buy it.

11:47 So remember that idea, the importance of controlling supply. It's so it's an idea you and I are gonna come back to over and over again. This was very fascinating. Uh he built up this this massive information network. And so this is going to be repeated throughout uh his career as well.

12:00 So it says Davine received daily reports from his galleries. So he's got galleries in York and London and Paris. Telling them or telling him what customers had come in, what pictures they had looked at. And for how long? And what they said about those pictures.

12:13 From other sources he got reports on any major collections being offered. For sale. He also got reports from his quote unquote runners. These are people that he deployed all over Europe to hunt out. Noblemen on the verge of settling For solvency.

12:27 And a bit of loose change at the sacrifice of some of their family portraits. These reports might include the gossips. uh the coming from servants who had overheard the head of the state saying to an important dealer that he might consider parting with a lovely piece If the price was right. Now

12:44 This is another thing. That Uh I think was unique to the way Davine built his business. He wanted to control supply. He wanted to say, hey, I have literally the best Uh and rarest.

12:55 pieces of art all over the the world. They're not available anywhere else. And so to do that He would routinely pay the highest prices. Far exceeding what anyone had paid before and in this bizarre world of capitalism that we're at at the very h the highest end.

13:10 This actually Made. The fact that he overpaid uh made his merchandise more valuable in the eyes of the buyer. So when negotiating with the heads of noble families, Davine usually won hands down over the other dealers. The brashness

13:23 of his attack simply bowled over the Dukes and the Barons. He didn't waste any any time. He talked prices and he talked big prices. He would say this is the greatest thing I ever saw. I will pay the biggest price you ever saw. And no surprise here, to this technique, the Dukes and the Barons responded warmly, and so they sold only to him. And he would continue this later on. He dies, I think, in the nineteen thirties.

13:45 Uh so part of his career is overlaps with the Great Depression. And it's a depression or no depression. It was Davine's principle to pay. The highest conceivable prices. Listen to this. A titled Englishwoman had a family portrait to sell. Davine asked her what she wanted for it, and she meekly said

13:59 eighteen thousand pounds. Duvine was indignant. What? eighteen thousand pounds for a picture of this quality? That is ridiculous, my dear lady. Ridiculous. He began to extol the virtues of the picture.

14:11 As if he were selling it. And indeed. In his mind Right, instead of buying it, he was already selling it. A kind of haggle in reverse ensued.

14:21 Finally, the owner ask him what he thought the picture was worth. And this is a key a key insight. into Devine's thinking. Duvine, who had already decided what he would charge some American customer. It would be a price that he could not ask for a picture.

14:37 That had cost them just A mere eighteen thousand pounds. So he shouted reproach reproachfully at her. My dear lady. The very least you should let that picture go.

14:47 for is twenty five thousand pounds. Swept off her feet by his enthusiasm again. That word enthusiasm is going to be repeated over and over again. uh by people around Davine. Swept off.

15:01 Her feet, by his enthusiasm, the lady capitulated. And so this next story is nuts, and it just goes into this idea that a lot of people view it's it's part of human nature. We Interpret price as a signal for quality, right? A shortcut for quality.

15:14 So he's like, Hey, I'm not You know, you wanna sell this to me for eighteen thousand pounds. Nope, I'm gonna give you twenty five thousand pounds. That sounds crazy. But this is why Duvine had enormous respect for the prices he set on the objects he bought and sold. Often his clients tried to maneuver him into a position where he might relax his high standards. But he always managed to keep them.

15:33 There was an instance of this kind of maneuvering in nineteen thirty four. So he is selling three statues, right? Three busts. He wants to sell them. All three of them. to Rockefeller Son.

15:45 So this is John D Rockefeller Junior. Okay. So he's like, hey Uh, who's a who's a massive collector and a huge customer of Uh Juvine. And so he's like, Hey, I'll sell you. Devine says, I will sell you these three bus for a million and a half dollars. Brockfells, Oh, that prices might be too high. So what does Duvine do? When

16:04 He's he's presented with that. He does not negotiate down. He's like, Oh I I want a million and a half. Rockefell's like I'll give you a million. Like Devine's like no, I'm going to Give you the busts. Put'em up in your house.

16:15 And I think it he gives him an a a year. Right. So it says a i it is a year. So he says he allowed Rockefeller a year's options on the bust. Right. So they are going to remain for a year in the Rockefeller. Mansion. As non paying guests. That's hilarious.

16:28 Uh during that time. Uh, Davine hope that the attraction between Rockefeller Junior and the bus would ripen into emotion that was more intense. And so keep in mind, this is nineteen thirty four. Look at this like psychological jujitsu that Duvine is gonna do on Rockefeller Junior, right? So a few months later, where you know, he's got a year

16:46 Few months later, Rockefeller writes him uh a letter. He's like, Hey I have a counter proposal. I'll buy the bus for a million dollars, right? Because the depression is on. And most people are feeling the effects of it. And Rockefeller said, Hey, you know, you might white because of the depression, you might welcome a million in cash.

17:02 Duvine's response was that I am not in the stock market and therefore I am immune and not the least bit affected by the depression. Isn't that interesting? I always s love the idea of like the order in which you read things can change your interpretation of it. And so Last week You and I talked about Texas oil billionaires.

17:22 And Mani Mun Creef. was very rich through the depression. A lot of the Texas Over billionaires 'Cause they had no money in the stock market. And so in the northeast at the time. Everybody's getting destroyed.

17:33 All of Texas's wealth. Isn't you know, coming from the ground. And so they were essentially immune to the effects of the Great Depression, we see something very similar here. He's like, listen, I'm not in the my entire business is selling Pictures, right? I'm taking

17:46 European art and selling it to you rich Americans. I'm not worried about the stock market. And so Devine actually turns around like oh since you since you're trying to negotiate with me, you're hard up on money. And so I will come to your assistance. Duvine managed to convey the sugg suggestion that if Rockefeller was in temporary financial difficulty He Duvine was ready to come to his assistance.

18:06 And so what happens, okay? So they says I want I wanna sell these things to you for these three statues for million and a half dollars. You think that's too high? Take'em. Let them in your house for a year, right? That's going to expire on the thirty the option's going to expire on the 31st of December. You can either buy them, and I've made it very clear, I'm not budging on the price, right?

18:24 You can either buy them on December thirty first or I have to take them back. So that's again A very advanced understanding. Setting a deadline of uh human psychology. And so what happens is the day before the option expires, Rockefeller writes to Viens him that he's buying

18:39 All three of them for a million and a half dollars. And it's this fundamental ability to understand and really focus in on its customers. Um, because he said she says the eight or ten clients. So they're ta in this part of the story, they're talking about the fact that he put a lot of money into building

18:56 Built like a gallery slash like house. Very similar to what Gagosine did. Uh, this is on Fifth Avenue. In Manhattan. And he hired great architects and he had to make it beautiful because his point was like, Well, I have eight or ten big clients, right? These are the ones, most of them are in New York.

19:10 These are the ones that are going to w enter into this building, the handful of men with whom Duvine did the major part of his business. uh these eight or ten clients. would come into this building to look at the garnered possessions of kings and emperors. And so therefore they must be provided with an environment that would tend to make them conscious of their right to inherit these

19:29 Possession. One the interesting thing is you don't need many customers if the few customers that you have are the richest people in the world, right? He built his entire business. Around eight to ten people. And two, he understood that they were very wealthy. Most of them came from, you know, nothing.

19:45 Or i i if not they did, their father came from nothing. I think John D Rockefeller's uh Junior's case, right? But what they lacked is they didn't have Prestige, they didn't have titles, they didn't have nobility, all the things that Europe w had an abundance, but no cash. And so it's like, Well, if you buy this, right? You were essentially if you really think about what um

20:05 What what uh Davine's doing. He's he's teaching his market, he's teaching his customers that buying art was also buying upper class status. And maybe the the The highest class possible because These are the former possessions of kings and emperors.

20:18 And so multiple times it's talked about that the fact that this guy First of all, insane levels of high agency. Sane levels of high high levels of disagreeableness. Although he was very nice and and and liked, but he, you know, wouldn't budge on pricing in whatever case is. But he's also highly competitive and it makes perfect sense because

20:34 He he wanted to not just be the best in the world. But literally the only person That these people W would ever even think about buying art from.

20:44 And to constantly teach you know, repetition is persuasive. And so to constantly teach them that. That's why he would say, Hey, you know You you have plenty of money. You can replace that money many, many times over, but the you're acquiring something. That is Irreplaceable. Another way he would describe that later on is that

20:57 You are trading The Uh infinite, which is money, right? With the finite. Which is there's only one of these in the world.

21:05 And what is also interesting, which Devine also shares in common with Gagosian. is the fact that he would essentially he was the business, right? He would travel all over the world. He'd go Rotate between Paris, New York, and London. And his entire business travels with him. And so when he goes to London

21:21 Uh he winds up s staying i in the same like if he's in Paris, he stays at the Ritz. If he's in London, he stays at Clarid's. And he sets up His suite there. As like miniature Uh art galleries is the way to think about this. This is very this is funny.

21:36 So he sets up his suite there, right? All of his accommodations at all points on any itinerary anywhere in the world, right? The it's going to be transformed into a small scale art gallery. He invites you over. He may be staying there, but it looks like an art gallery. He arranges the paintings, sculptures, and the objects so that his clients and friends could visit him. in a proper setting and possibly take home some of its furnishings.

21:57 I'm telling you. This is the most mo one of the most motivating things for me. is the fact that there is always a blueprint. that I s you you get to say these people like wow these these people are so Ruthlessly efficient in

22:09 Brilliant. And then you're like, Wait a minute. He got that idea. from this other person that lived fifty years before I can do the same thing. And so This is literally happening, right? It was like inviting people over to his hotel room in London.

22:23 Oh, I love this chair. I love this art. Okay, do you want it? In the gagos this is like let's see, this is happening let's say nineteen twenties. So let's say sixty seventy years later in New York City, Kagosian Invites Bernard R No.

22:37 Or no. Uh, obviously the founder of LVMH I'm actually working on I'll give you a sneak peek, I'm working on another episode of him uh on Bernard Arnou. I've been practicing pronouncing his name. Um But he invites Go's invites are now over.

22:52 And Arnaud just happens to come. He's like, I like these chairs and go see it's like this is at his uh his Uh home in Fifth on Fifth Avenue, I'm pretty sure. And He's like Bernard is like I like these chairs and like Gozine's like, Do you want to buy? And I think they wind up doing a deal right there.

23:08 But I just love the fact that You know, this just repeats over and over again. So let's go back to this idea that your enthusiasm Uh, your charisma is transferable to other people. all the people around him his clients describe Duvine as an exhilarating companion, right?

23:23 They said his enthusiasm how many times? I'm like What is this, twenty pages into this thing? How many times have we already heard the word enthusiasm? His enthusiasm was irrepressible. He engaged in a kind of buffoonery.

23:34 That was irresistible. Most of his friends were older men and they enjoyed his company partly because he made them feel young. And so Andrew Mellon's much older than him. And he he he he summarizes the the gift that Duvine's personality was to his business where

23:49 He told Duvine to his face the pictures that you sell me always look better when you are here. Think about how powerful his charisma had to be that he could Take his aura, right? And transfer it to the picture that you bought from him. And you're like in his presence like this is amazing.

24:04 This is a reality distortion field. This is Steve Jobs, right? Same exact idea behind this. And then he leaves He's like, Wait a minute, the picture doesn't look as good when Duvine is not here. And this is not This is the thing. I think I have notes later on.

24:16 Uh,'cause I I I kept thinking about, you know, Charlie Munger's psychology of human misjudgment that he went over and over again. People think this is like some Willy Foo Fo stuff. These are These are some of the most sophisticated entrepreneurs.

24:30 to ever live and it works on them. That should tell you that it's deeply embedded in our human nature, which I'll get to uh Later on. I want to give you an example of one of my favorite maxims comes from Ted Turner, actually came from Ted Turner's dad. Uh early to bed, early to rise, work like hell and advertise.

24:47 And so what would happen is because Duvine there was all these unintended Um positive externalities. That came from Duvine constantly outbidding everybody and and you know, he's hellbent on controlling supply. One way you you have to do that is sometimes you have to pay more than you think it's worth. And so who's paying? Crazy prices.

25:06 They were so crazy that they were covered They were newsworthy. So he's got essentially Unlimited free advertising because he buys Let's say he spends I'm gonna give you like three examples that spread throughout the nineteen twenties that are covered in the Herald Tribune, which essentially a they're

25:20 They s they function as free advertising for them. And so this is like a example Sir Joseph DeVine, the art dealer, has bought a Rambrant for$410,000. It's$410,000 in 1926. One of the highest prices ever paid. And then listen to this next line. I interrupted the sentence for you. Listen to this.

25:39 So Highest price ever paid. And This pr this Rembrandt had been in the possession of the family for two hundred years. Highest price ever paid and unbelievably scarce. The opportunity to buy this all comes up only once every two hundred years. Do you want to act? And if you act, you have to act now.

25:57 Um another example. Uh Sir Joseph Devine, the international art dealer, bought in London yesterday the entire collection. He does this all the time. Like he did. He'll buy you know, one off pieces if they're the best or whatever. He'll buy entire collections and then he'll just store them. Uh again, controlling supply. The entire collection of a hundred and twenty Italian of the old masters.

26:16 uh belonging to this very wealthy uh European or noble European. This entire collection will be brought to New York. The purchase price was three million dollars in nineteen twenty seven dollars. And then not only did His When he bought

26:32 Uh merchandise. Right, and supply. it was covered, but when he sold it was also covered. This is again Early to bed, early rise, work like hell, and advertise Andrew Mellon. Right? This is

26:43 The the son of Judge Mellon. Who is the patriarch of the Mellon family dynasty. But at this time now is he very wealthy. He's also the secretary of the Treasury of the United States.

26:55 And so now you have Duvine's name associated with literally the best People in the world. Not only are they richest, in some cases they hold the highest uh like Some of the highest uh government positions. So it says Andrew Mellon, the secretary of treasury of the United States, has purchased from Duveen for$170,000. A painting.

27:14 Doesn't even matter what the painting is. Here's again the scarcity, the time a aspect of it, right? The painting bears Raphael's signature and the date fifteen oh eight. And so to other people it felt like he was overpaying. He understood that his entire business only fun it only works if he has

27:30 If you can control spline he has access to literally the best and the most desired art of all the world. And so this is Uh an example of what he would do. to make sure that he didn't miss out. It's not like oh If I don't win this auction

27:42 You know, there's a second thing that's kinda like this. It's like either it it's zero sum. One winner. Everybody else loses. The circumstances attending Devine's purchase of this painting called The Pinky in nineteen twenty six illustrate his tenacity in the fight he made to establish he pr his preeminence. Among the art dealers of the world.

27:59 From the beginning, Davine felt that his educational mission was twofold. Number one, to teach millionaire American collectors what the great works of art were. And two To teach them. That they could only get those works of art

28:12 Through him. So number one, I sell the best. And I'm the only one That has them, right? And so he there's uh this other rival dealer that's like, Hey, I'm gonna bid on Pinky too.

28:23 And so what does Davine do? Duvine goes to Uh this this is an art auction. That is being run by Christie's and he goes to the manager of Christie's And he doesn't even show up he doesn't even have to show up for the bidding. He just tells the guy he's like

28:35 I have an unlimited bid. Whatever your highest bid is. I will pay more. So by default, he has to be the winner. And this is what he said about this. Dev Devine admitted That the price he had paid was steep.

28:46 But he repeated his cardinal dictum. When you pay high for the priceless. You're getting it cheap. Another saying of his endlessly repeated to his American clients was

28:58 You can get all the paintings you want at fifty thousand dollars a piece. That is easy. But to get paintings. At a quarter of a million dollars apiece. That takes doing.

29:08 And then he would go out of his way to stroke and to encourage FOMO, the fear of missing out. He offers this deal. to Andrew Mellon. Andrew's like, Oh, I'm not interested. The next day he calls up H. E. Huntington.

29:20 Huntington built a bunch of railroads. He offers it to him, Hunting Tink buys. And then once it's one many cases, once they sell Excuse me, once the Like the Huntingtons or Ubburns buy, they rarely sell.

29:33 And so even many decades later when this piece is being uh written. It's still hanging that that that painting was still hanging hanging in the Huntington Mansion in California. And even that worked in Duvine's favor because Mellon Heard

29:47 that oh the next day somebody else bought What I said I wasn't interested in, what if I had changed my mind, now I can't get it, it stuck. So then the next time that Duvine has something that he thinks Melon He's interested in.

29:59 It causes Melon to act faster. Mellon did not make the same mistake again. Duvine offers him a painting by Romney. It is the highest price. ever paid for a Romney.

30:09 Duvine offered it to him and Mellon immediately bought it. Multiple times it talks about that Duvine was aiming for a monopoly on purpose. Uh there's a great line where it says uh Monopoly by Peter Teel. And zero to one. Where he says monopoly businesses capture more value than millions of undifferentiated competitors. This is what it sounds like. If you have a monopoly.

30:29 There had never Before been anyone like Duvine. The exalted middleman. And he practically monopolized his field. Ninety five

30:39 Of the hundred and fifteen paintings in the Melon collection. Right, which gets donated to the public, which I'll talk about why he did this was also a genius move. In a little bit. Came.

30:50 Two melon. Through Duvine. Melon? Think about that. At this point, Andrew Mellon. Они ларжі арт колектор і стається.

30:59 There he might not be the largest, but they're you know, he's on the short list. He might be the fifth. might be the second, might be the tenth. He certainly sure as hell is not the hundredth, right? So one of the largest Our collectors in America's time. Ninety five. Of the hundred and fifteen paintings in his collection came.

31:14 From Duvine. That is. He aimed for monopoly. And he hit his target. Nothing fascinating thing that I've already mentioned, but it's very obvious when you read about and you start studying Joseph Devine, it's like okay, this guy is super clever.

31:27 And what makes him even more clever, right? So talks about that he enjoyed having the stupid side of his character emphasized. in public dinner parties. He'd bring up his mistakes. Like most people, you know, they're kind of embarrassed by their failures, embarrassed by their mistakes. They would like hide it, they're being ashamed of it.

31:44 he wouldn't hide his mistakes, he'd bring them up himself. And this is the line why says he enjoyed having the stupid side of his character emphasise. It constituted a disguise. For his cleverness. That is how you know somebody's even more clever. The fact that they understand that it's clever.

31:58 To conceal your cleverness. And another thing that clever founders do. is they're focused. Listen to this line that comes a couple pages later. He was interested in practically nothing. Except his business. If you think about the layers in which this guy goes, it's impossible to arrive that the conclusions and come up with the ideas that Duvine had, right?

32:17 Амо хуевер. That it is. Not what you do, but it is how you do it. There is a ton of art dealers that don't make any money. And there's a handful, one or two, or three, that became billionaires.

32:28 It's not what you do, it's how you do it. And This idea of crazy focus and just thinking about your business longer and harder than anybody else does, you're gonna get so deep down that curve that you're gonna come up with ideas that s other people in the same field that remain permanently superficial will never have. Certain men are endowed with the faculty. of concentrating on their own affairs to the exclusion of what's going on elsewhere. Duvine was that kind of man.

32:54 Going back to this idea of how important it was this information network that he built up slowly over time, right? Compounds of value becomes like one of his greatest assets. Uh later in his life. How valuable it is is that Henry Clay Frick is one of his biggest clients, right? And one of the richest people on the planet now.

33:09 And yet Duvine is the expert in his field, so he hears about all the great assets before anybody else does. And so he's having like a launch and a conversation with Henry Clay Frick. And Fri brings up, he's like, Man, I lost that painting. I was on the trail of a very great painting. It's this Thing called

33:25 Uh Saint John James Park or something like that. And Fri's response or Duvine's response to Frick was excellent. He goes, Oh My Mr. Frick. I bought that painting.

33:35 When you want a great painting You must come to me. Because you know I get the first chance at All of them.

33:42 Remember, he repeats this over and over again. You can only get the best through me. Ignore these competitors, come straight to me, you will get the best every time. And the greatest way to condense and clarify that idea, in my opinion. Is

33:54 the line Monopoly was his method. Monopoly was his method. And I think all these ideas work together to help him build his monopoly. The fact that he was focused on it, he was only interested in his business. There's this line about the amount of detail that he paid attention to, and I think there's a great story that'll illustrate, you know, Monopoly was his method, Duvine displayed That scrupulous attention to detail that has distinguished the careers of other s other celebrated generals, so Obviously something you and I have talked about multiple times.

34:21 Uh with The most recent on the uh two weeks ago on the episode. of Napoleon's uh strategies and maxims. And so an example of that, it goes back to this information network, right? He knew every he built relationships and and paid people to give him information.

34:38 And the reason and I'm gonna actually explain Uh I'm gonna Explain the story first and then we'll go into how and like who are the people that he paid. But this is the reason why. So He would

34:50 The way that most people are getting back and forth between Europe and America at this point, right? It's on these transatlantic ships. So he becomes friends. With all the deck hands on the ships. And he pays them a lot of money. In many cases hundreds of dollars. Like he'll tip'em, you know, hundreds of dollars. And it's way more than they make. And in return

35:10 They make sure'cause they're setting up and they're deciding where everybody's gonna sit on the deck. And they deput they what they do. Because Divine Divine has built relationships with them. finds out they have valuable information, pays them for that information, pays them for their service. in in like an excessive amount more so than anybody else's paying them, right?

35:28 In return, He gets seated and set up. next to a bunch of American millionaires that are going, you know, back and forth through Europe. This is another example of what I meant. He has all these like fabricated fabricated uh Coincidences.

35:43 And so here's an example of that. And so it says among the American millionaires that Divine met through the Deck hands, the Deck Stewards. was Alexander Smith Cochran, who was a Like a carpet. Barren.

35:55 So they meet on a boat that's sailing to Europe. Uh, and they just start chatting. Cochran happened to mention that he would like some day to see the Buckingham Palace. and all these other European palaces, Davine said casually that he would be delighted to take him through both places. When they got to England, Cochrane found himself strolling through the two palaces. They seemed as accessible to Devine as the lobby of a hotel. While he was showing Cochrane the royal art.

36:19 Duvine spoke warmly of Queen Mary and told Cochrane What a high regard he had. For her and her taste in art he never mentioned. that he had things he considered as good as hers in his own galleries. In fact, he never mentioned his galleries at all. When they parted, Cochran felt a certain obligation.

36:37 To Divine, a healthy respect for his connections. and a sharp curiosity about why a stranger should be so kind. They met again in New York, and Devine took him to see the wonderful Devines hanging in the private houses. But he did not tell them. That they were Dovines.

36:53 Again he neglected to mention his great New York Gallery. This display of benevolence went on for three years. Until finally Cochrane could not stand it any longer and broke down. Lord Duvine. I would like to see some of your things. His back to the wall, that's hilarious. His back to the wall, Duvine took Cochrane to his gallery.

37:12 He could not spare any paintings. They were all on reserve. See what he just did there? Sorry, they're scarce, they're rare, they're I have you know, listen, I'm the only one that has these. But they're spoken for. Uh, you know, there's a line this is like Enzo Ferrari, we talked about this multiple times on the three episodes I did in Enzo Ferrari.

37:28 uh people like Americans come to Italy, they tour the Ferrari factory is like I must have one. And this was like yeah, of course, you know, maybe next year or maybe six shit months from now, whatever the case is. And then the American would leave. And and Zo Ferrari's employees would come up to him like Mm.

37:43 We have an un we have a parking lot full of unsol Ferraris. Why'd you do that? And he's like,'cause Ferraris must never they must be desired. They must be desired. Duvine's doing the exact same thing. So okay, listen, I can't spare any paintings. They're all on reserve.

37:55 But you know what, I do have these other art objects, these other sculptures. You can buy that. Cochrane spent five million dollars. So From developing this information network, right, playing that long game. So might have cost them. Couple hundred dollars in tips.

38:11 Three years later that turns into a five million dollar sale. That is absolutely nuts. So let's go back. Let's go back to what he was building'cause I jumped ahead in the story. Um, so this is what he does. He says that he had an unusual Spirit of friendliness.

38:25 And he let it shine. by building relationships uh with Some p sometimes people are directly involved in the art world, sometimes they're very indirectly. So this is like all the people that are worth like all the staff that work for a lot of these art collectors. So he'd build

38:39 relationships with critics, with museum directors, with restorers. He's gonna make one guy very wealthy. You know, you have very old art. You need somebody that's very delicate, very talented, and they restore it. Architects, j decorators, and servants.

38:52 He becomes very generous with the staff and the servants And in turn They would give Divine all the gossip that they hear when people visit their home. And so in one case, right, there's a butler. That is working in the Fift Avenue house of

39:08 This One of Devine's most important clients. Over the course of their relationship, Duvine gives him a hundred thousand dollars. What is the result, right? Said not only this butler, but all these other servants. They developed a feeling that it was only fair to transmit to their generous nobleman, that's Duvine.

39:26 any information that might interest him. And this is not so Not only is it going to lead to more sales, he has an understanding of a deeper so he has a deeper understanding of the person, what's interesting to them, what's going on in their life, right? It's going to lead to more sales. But again. Duvine's one of the most competitive people you're ever gonna come across. He he wants monopoly. So that means therefore you cannot buy from other people.

39:45 So he winds up getting Winds up Uh knowing when rival dealers are going to make appointments with some of his people like uh Henry Clay Freick or Mellon or anybody else, right? And he just happens to show up.

39:57 So it says rival deal when rival When this is hilarious. When rival dealers would show up to offer works. Uh of art. They found that they could never see the client alone. Whenever they dropped in, Duvine was already there. And so here's another example of this idea that you and I talked about a few weeks ago on episode three thirty five on Brad Jacobs' book, How to Make a Few Billion Dollars.

40:20 overpay for talent because it's nearly impossible to overpay for talent. And so Duvine had a conviction that anyone who worked for him High or low should be compensated in a manner. Commissioner. with the dignity of the association with him, right? I am the best in the world.

40:34 Everybody associated with me has to be the best. And they should be paid like the best. He finds uh his main restorer. So this the people that have to, you know, take these very old paintings. You know, spruce em up for lack of a better word.

40:46 There is this guy Named Steven Picchetto. Pacetto was Duvine's main restorer, right? He's moving so much product. As Duvine's business grows, so does Picchetto's, and this is the end result. When Picchetto died in nineteen forty nine at the age of sixty one, He was himself a wealthy man.

41:04 Such was the trade as Duvin practiced it. That even a restorer who worked for Dovine could leave a fortune. Now a large part of his profile. Is the founding of something that still is available actually to us today. It's the National Gallery of Art.

41:21 In Washington, DC. Which was Established in nineteen thirty seven. You can go there to to this day and visit it for free. Over three million people a year do just that. That is an idea.

41:32 From Joseph Duvine. So I'm actually going to read the summary about the National Gallery of Art in Washington D C that came That is uh in The book Forty Eight Laws of Power.

41:44 Because Essentially it it describes like okay Later in his career Duvine is running into a problem, right? He's gotta solve a problem. All the problems that come up in his life

41:54 He he figures like okay, this is just an opportunity. That will help me so sell more art. And so if you really analyze the career of Duvine, everything he did was an answer to this questioner to this problem.

42:06 Like how can I solve this problem so I can sell more art? And what he did was genius and it's the creation. Of the National Gallery of Art in Washington, D C. The art dealer Joseph Devine was once confronted with a terrible problem.

42:19 The millionaires who had paid so dearly for Duvine's paintings. We're running out of wall space. And with inheritance taxes getting even higher. It seemed unlikely that they would keep buying. The solution was the National Gallery of Art in Washington, DC, which Duvine helped create in nineteen thirty seven.

42:36 by getting Andrew Mellon to donate his collection to it. The National Gallery Was the perfect front for Du Viet. In one gesture. His clients avoided taxes.

42:47 Cleared wall space for new purchases. And reduce the numbers of paintings. on the market. Maintaining the upward pressure on their prices. All this while the donors created the appearance of being public benefactors.

43:02 That happened in nineteen thirty seven. It goes back to this. These prefabricated Coincidences. That you see throughout'cause they weren't coincidences, right?

43:11 They were very intentional and deliberate. Of how w the one that Davine did throughout his entire career. But also in how he met. uh Andrew Mellon, and then Andrew Mellon becomes one of his biggest clients, right?

43:21 That happened. Uh what sixteen years earlier in nineteen twenty one. Listen to this from the same book. In nineteen twenty one, Andrew Mellon was visiting London And staying in a suite. At the Clarage Hotel. Duvine Duvine had been targeting him for a while. He wanted him as a client, right? Duvine booked himself into the suite just below Mellon's.

43:38 He had arranged Duvine had also arranged for his valet. To befriend Mellon's valet. Melon's valet told Duvet's valet When told Devine. That Melon was about to go downstairs and ring for the lift, so the the elevator, right?

43:51 Seconds later Duvine entered the lift, and behold, there was Melon. How do you do, Mr Mellon? said Duvine. Remember how he was Just striking up these conversations. On The deck of the boat.

44:02 Going back and forth between Europe. and America. He's doing the exact same thing here, but now he's doing it in an elevator in a very nice hotel in London. So he says, How do you do, Mr Millon? Uh Duvine said, introducing himself. I'm on my way to the National Gallery to look at some pictures, to look at some paintings, right? How uncanny that was precisely where Mellon was headed and Duvine knew it.

44:20 And so Devine was able to accompany him. He knew Melon's taste inside and out because he studies everybody. And while the two men wander through the museum. He dazzled Mellon with his knowledge. Once again. Uh, quite uncannily, they seem to have remarkably similar tastes. Mellon was pleasantly surprised.

44:36 Duvine was charming and agreeable and clearly had exquisite taste. That is the beginning. of their relationship, right? Last for Twenty years until you're going to be able to do Uh Divine's death. contributes untold revenue to Davine's business and then also cul culminates

44:51 with the opening and the founding. of the National Gallery of Art in Washington, DC. Absolutely incredible. This guy was absolutely Incredible. I want to go back to this idea which I mentioned earlier and now I found my note.

45:05 Uh, so human nature is constant. Studying history is like watching game tape on human nature. These examples are why Charlie Munger spent so much time speaking about and teaching about the psychology of human misjudgment. And so Why did I write that to myself I get to this This is what I meant earlier. Like these guys it's not like these these these tendencies in human nature, right, only work on dullers, right? These are some of the most smartest, most sophisticated people on the planet.

45:30 Uh much smarter and more sophisticated than me by far. And yet it works on them. So that's why I want to know about them. And what am I talking about? So There is this one of the richest people in America at the time. It's this guy named Eight.

45:42 Uh S H Crest. So he uh own a chain he'd build a giant retail fortune. So retail department stores, you know, century before Sam Walton. Think about him like that. Okay. And Uh, there's another guy that you and I have talked about in the past, which is Henry Goldman. Of Goldman Sachs, right?

45:58 And so Gold um he's Henry Goldman actually loses his sight and becomes Partially or maybe completely blind. And he decides to sell off his entire collection of art. And so

46:11 He goes and offers it first to his contemporary and his I don't know if they were friends, but you know, m peer or something like that, colleague. Uh Chris. But Goldman loves to move fast and so He offers it to Cress and the guy brokering the deal between them says, Hey

46:27 Uh, if Cress wants this, tell him that he's gotta do it in a hurry. It's gotta be decided this afternoon. And Cress is like oh Is it like it has to be done today? Like is he having liquidity pro problems? Is he broke? What's going on? He and He's like no, he just wants to get it has nothing to with insolvency. He just wants to sell this. He wants to

46:44 Do this fast, wanna waste any time. And so he tells him hold Goldman off like I'm gonna think about it. Hold him off. He keeps repeating, Hold him off, hold him off. But as you already know by now Duvine does not wait around for anything. And so once he hears about this, he's like, Forget that, I'm not waiting and he buys the entire collection immediately.

47:00 And then this is where what I meant about the psychology of human misjudgment, right? So He he got Cress gets the offer. Says no, wait, wait, let me think about it. Duvine doesn't, he acts, buys it. Now It's the exact same collection. It's the exact same collection.

47:15 But a collection that belongs to Devine was not a collection that belonged to Goldman. Even when it's the same collection. So you think about this, this is just same thing happened with Gagosian. Same thing happens, you know, every day. You and I are an influence. By brands.

47:29 Brand is like magic. Duvine is a brand and therefore can increase the price. It's the same exact thing. I could be offered the same product. It could be the exact same product. You know

47:40 a random brand name, the other ones say like an apple or something like that. And we it's been proven over and again. We will pay more for the brand, even if it's the exact same thing. And that's exactly what happens here because Duvine Buys the same collection. Doesn't change anything about it. And shows it to Cress and he goes around. Remember what Mellon said, These pictures look better when you're here.

48:02 He's enthusiastic. He's saying this is the best this and this is the greatest that and look what this is. It's so rare. And something UV knew. He says once a collector had His heart set on a picture, it irritates him to have other people discourage him from buying it.

48:16 'Cause Cress as a professional advisor saying, you know, this is the exact same thing like This is how crazy These psychological tendencies are, right? These are like very smart, accomplished people. They have people saying you're not, you're acting irrationally. Then instead of Them saying you're right. They get mad at the person that's telling them to act irrationally. And so what he does.

48:33 Cress bought the picture and all the others. Had he bought the pictures directly from Goldman, he would have saved millions of dollars. That's insane. He would have saved millions of dollars. But we wouldn't have had the warm feelings of owning a lot of Duvines. Duvine was a brand.

48:48 The exact same collection in Goldman's hands. Transfer to Davine. That same exact collection is now worth millions and millions of dollars more. Where you have one of the most advanced entrepreneurs Of that time.

49:00 Willing to pay millions of millions of dollars more. Because it's now no longer the Goldman collection, it is a Duvine collection. And this happened over and over again in Duvine's business and it still happens today. How did it come about that the great money men of this era gradually came to accept

49:15 Duvine simple Unworldly view. That art. was more important than money. Duvine had taught them the idea.

49:22 That art was priceless. And when you pay for the infinite With the finite You are indeed getting a bargain. His clients felt better when they paid a lot.

49:34 That's something that Munger repeats over and over again in Poor Charlie Sonic, the fact that price is a signal high price is a signal for high quality. They felt better. They felt better when they paid a lot. It gave them the assurance of acquiring rarity. A rival dealer of Duvine, so a lesser dealer. Had bought a bust.

49:51 For twenty two thousand dollars. The dealer needed money. and offered it for twenty five thousand. Thinking that it would tempt his customer into a quick purchase. The customer

50:02 Was turned off. The moderateness of the price was fatal. The moderateness of the price was fatal. Find me a better one, he said. Duvine would have asked a quarter of a million dollars and got it.

50:17 The same thing happened when another dealer offered a room, so an entire room, all the furniture, all the bus. all the the paintings, right? A dealer offered a room To William Randolph Hurst. For fifty thousand dollars. Hurst spurned it.

50:32 Duvine offered it to him later. Duvine offered it to Hurst later. For two hundred Thousand dollars. And Hurst bought it with gratitude. A dealer try to sell him a rug for fifteen thousand dollars.

50:45 He was used to paying sixty thousand dollars for a clock. And a hundred thousand dollars. For necklaces. And was suspicious. Of anything.

50:54 that you could get for a mere fifteen thousand. Get me something better. Was his response. And Duvine didn't just get his clients something better. He got them the best.

51:04 Duvine built his entire business. Around The best. And that is where I'll leave it. Highly recommend reading both pieces and I'll also link to the forty eight laws of power.

51:17 You'll find all those links down below, and they're all available at founderspodcast.com. That is three hundred and thirty-nine. Books down. One thousand ago. And I'll talk to you again soon. If you think about it, the episode that you just heard is a great illustration of this

51:30 This quote. that is in this book on Charlie Munger, Poor Charlie's Almanac, where it says that there's ideas worth billions in a thirty dollar history book. Because just like Charlie Munger and Warren Buffett talk about uh in that book actually, how much they read biographies, how much time they spend reading history. and uh using history, learning from history as a formal leverage.

51:47 you know, Larry Gagosian, who starts his career, you know, forty years after Joseph Devine dies by his own admission. Reads every single party that he could get his hands on. about Justin Devine and essentially patterns his career. They are remarkably similar when you read about both of them, and Gagosian's privately held company is rumored to be doing over a billion dollars a year in revenue. And so a few weeks ago when Napoleon told you and I that it is profitable to study the campaigns of the great masters.

52:14 I think Gagosian would agree, obviously Charlie Munger and Warren Buffett would agree, and most of the people that you you and I talk about on this podcast, they they talk over and over again. I've I've given you a thousand examples like that. But I really liked what Napoleon said, that he thought it was important to read over and over and over again. Not just read once, not just listen to one podcast episode, but read over and over again. The campaigns of the greats. And so what I'm trying to build with Founders Notes is really an echo of this idea that that Napoleon talked about. That that

52:40 History must be critically analyzed to discover why successes were obtained and why defeats were inflicted. and that the teaching of strategy is built around history. So I'm going to s something that uh well, first of all, the I the the entire idea from Founders Notes came from Making Founders Podcast, right? For years.

52:57 Since two thousand eighteen I've been putting every single Uh highlight. Of the books I read. And every single note on the highlights. into this app.

53:06 called Read Wise. I've been obsessed with it. I talk about it over over again. I use it to make the podcast. I c I've said before I could I couldn't make the podcast without it. That's not true. I could make the podcast without it. The podcast would be half as good, I don't know, three quarters uh as good as it is. because of this constant repetition of these ideas. When you hear me in this In all these episodes, like, oh, that is like this, and this person thought like this, and oh, this is very similar to episode one twenty seven or whatever that is. That comes from this constant rereading what Napoleon said, read over and over again the campaigns of the great masters.

53:41 And so the very idea to even build a product around this came because so many people for years We're saying, Hey, I would love to have access to your notes and highlights. How can we do that? And I didn't know and for years said no, no, no, no. Finally reach out to the founders of Reed Weiss. uh the both fans of the podcast. And I was like, Hey, I wanna build a product where people can see exactly what I see. So if you sign up at foundersnotes.com, you will see my entire notebook. I really do truly believe with every bone of my body is the most

54:09 Valuable Notebook. in the world for founders because I don't think anyone else has been as psychopathically obsessed with this idea. I've been sitting in a room essentially for my by myself for eight years. You know, reading hundreds of thousands of pages and trying to document everything I learn. take that personal curriculum and externalize it to the world and that is

54:27 Founders Podcast. And what I consider Founders Podcast is Founders Podcast is Essentially a free trial, right? Four Founders Notes. Founders Notes takes everything that you and I are learning on the podcast and just takes it to another level. And so as I'm still in the early days of developing this, I've only been developing for a few months, I've purposely kept the price lower.

54:47 If you really think about it, because it's built only for people that are already running successful companies, you know, I I say this over and over again, do not invest in subscription unless you're already running a successful company. The price should be immaterial to you. As far as the value that you get, the price is missing a couple zeros. Now as I continue to build out different features, obviously the price will go up in the future. But for now, if you obviously if you sign up now. You're locked in, the price stays the same. you essentially get all the future f you get all the future

55:14 Features. There we go. Future features for free. I am also doing something for the first time ever, which I mentioned at the beginning. Because I'm just a big believer, like uh Michael Jordan said that successful people listen, those that don't listen don't last long. And I have a bunch of people saying, Hey I would love

55:30 uh a one time option. So for a limited time, I'm going to test this out. My plan is to make heavy Heavy investments. I think founders know it can be this giant platform. The way I view it, over time I think it'll be an ever increasing giant valuable curriculum that condenses and clarifies the collective knowledge of history's greatest founders.

55:48 I think it's the platform and the business that will continue to allow me to make and distribute the podcast for free for the rest of my life. And so I'm not just stopping where it is now, you know, even though I will continue to add my notes and highlights to it forever because it's embedded in my workflow. Like if you would if you already have a subscription to Founders Notes and you already know this. You've you've had all my notes and highlights on this b uh on the the episode I just did be way before the episode comes out because I have to use it to make the episode. It is embedded in my workflow, so that'll never stop as long as I'm doing the podcast, right?

56:17 And so the ability to Read all of my notes, all of my highlights, to search by keyword. Uh to go to the actual books. You can read it and some people are doing this every day. I'm getting a bunch of messages where they're almost like reading it like the morning newspaper. They'll go and pick a different book every day. They'll read the notes and highlights. Some cases they they wind up buying the book'cause they want more context. They go back and re listen to the episodes. It's really fascinating what how people are using it so far.

56:40 'Cause again, the way to think about it, it's just an ever increasing, giant, valuable curriculum that condenses and clarifies the collective knowledge of history's greatest founders. The podcast tries to do that and the the magic of the podcast is it does that when your eyes are busy. Right, when you're driving, when you're commuting, when you're working out, when you're walking, whatever the case is. Founders notes is for when your eyes are not busy. It's this continuation of this again, ever increasing giant valuable curriculum that condenses and clarifies the collective knowledge of history's greatest founders. And so I've already been building out other features. So What I wanna try to do is'cause I wanna m maintain I wanna keep investing more and more time and money into this thing.

57:16 Um I'm going to test out something that was requested by a lot of people, right? So for a limited time, a one time payment option, then I'm gonna use that money that comes in and then reinvest into more features because So right now I have two screens up, uh I know you can't see this, but I have two screen. So I have founders notes as is right now, right? Where you can search your highlights. Yeah, when you sign up, you you have this big box at the top. So search highlights. Anything that you can think of, a name, an idea, a keyword, it goes in there. highlight feed, which is this what Morgan Housel of uh this a friend of mine and also the the author of Psychology Money calls the smart Twitter feed, right? Actually he heard me say that and then he started using it and he said it's a that is what it is.

57:57 So the highlight feed is essentially like a smart Twitter feed. 'Cause it gives you a random It presents highlights and notes from all of uh all of the everything that I have in the database. But in a random order. So I just hit I just press on it.

58:10 And it shows me the first thing is uh a uh highlighted note from the autobiography of Christian Dior. The next one is the autobiography of Sam Zell. Then you have Ed Catmull's autobiography, the the Founder of Pixar. Then you have the book I did on Christopher Nolan. Then you have uh Mark Twain. Uh, James Cameron, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Walt Disney Uh the di the

58:32 For uh the dynasty book, The Fortunes and Misfortunes of the World's Greatest Families, I did a few uh months ago. Tiger Woods, shh. Uh James Dyson. Ralph Lorin, Ralph Lorin again. This is uh Warren Buffett, that that's Munger. This is a guy that sold his company to Buffett. This is Van Ever Bush. It goes on and on. I think you get the idea. Um and so What that does is like the I feel the highlight speed is like a prompt for your own thinking. Right. It's like okay, I d I there's nothing I really want to search today. I don't really want to

58:59 Uh there's not a specific book I have in mind. Let me see if I can just prom my own thinking and just scroll through there and see what comes to mind. You can also do the books. You click on books, that's pretty obvious. I think self explanatory. It's gonna have all the books by the title. Some of'em have, you know, handful of highlights, some have a bunch. You can usually take Five, ten minutes at the most. uh to read all the my notes and highlights on a specific book. Now

59:21 The other screen I have up is well, like I just said, I'm not stopping there. And so the other screen up is a feature that I've been testing for a while where it's a chat interface. So instead of searching by keywords You just say like today what I was searching, it's like'cause I've been testing it nonstop. Tell me about Edmund Land, why was he important and what he what what

59:40 Did he do? And the connections that it makes, it pulled fifty different highlights. Oh, I forgot to mention that the the transcripts for every single episode. It's uh it's also you can search through that as well, which is incredible. But it pulled fifty different highlights. Right. uh to answer this question, then it gives me like ten nine to ten bullet points.

59:59 And then so I'm using it to as I do research for the podcast. Constantly testing it, but I'm also like asking questions like Hey, I'm having trouble deciding if I should sell my company or not. What advice do you have that'll help me make this decision? Then it gives you It poll gives you a bunch of interesting ideas.

1:00:14 And I said, Hey, have any of history's greatest founders regretted selling their company? And then it continues on Pulling and then synthesizing dozens of highlights and gives you an idea of the different perspectives. So in this case it was he g it gives me an idea from Michael Bloomberg, from Ted Turner. Uh from the founder of Trader Joe's, from Henry Singleton, for from Jack Ma. From Warren Buffett.

1:00:35 All that from me just asking, Hey, have any of history's greatest founders regretted selling their company? And if you used any of these new AI platforms, you know it's like an idiot savant. You know, maybe half the time it's an idiot and the other half the time it's a savant. But this is only gonna get better and better. And even right right now in its current incarnation, it's already making connections that I even missed. So I'm testing this every day. It'll be out.

1:00:58 to every single person has a subscription for two founders notes. Relatively soon, you know, maybe a few weeks, something like that. But I'm not stopping there. I really want to organize around this idea that this is an ever increasing, giant, valuable curriculum that condenses and clarifies the collective knowledge of history's greatest founders. And so I'm already building out resources where maybe you don't want to search at all. This is something I want. So everything I'm describing is something I want. So I was like, hey, I want a collection of ideas organized by theme across every book and episode.

1:01:25 So instead of learning by person, right, or me searching for something or even having a a chat interface. G give me one page, two page, three pages of how all of history's greatest founders Thought about topics like marketing, recruiting, distribution, management. How do they hire? How do they fire? This is going to take an unbelievably long time to do. It's going to require a lot of investment. I'm obviously going to hire

1:01:48 Several people to help me with this. But I wanted to give you a little sneak peek because again, I always think about One. I've already dem it's already been demonstrated over and over again, like the the collective intelligence that is in for the like the audience of the people listening to founders is is incredible. And so that advantage that I have of being able to tap into that becomes your advantage because then I then it's just like positive feedback loop. I get great ideas and then I apply them to founders' notes and you benefit as well.

1:02:14 So hopefully that made sense. I swear, I was like, I'm gonna sit down Instead of talking about this for like thirty minutes or whatever I I don't even know how long I've been talking. Uh I know uh sometimes I at the at the end of episodes I go, you know, I kinda go off the rails a little bit. I swear I was like I'm gonna sit down and, you know, two minutes just tell them, hey, do you have a lifetime option now or a one time option now? Uh if you want this Yeah, you know, here's how to get it. Really simple. And then I wind up going

1:02:41 I just I I'm fascinated by this stuff. I'm just fascinated. I was kind of like a skeptic a little bit. And then I s I start the like an AI skeptic. And then I realized, oh no, like the connections that the benefit that I have, I have this weird thing where, you know Where it's like because I'm so emmeshed in all of this, and I read and reread every day and I have for almost eight years. these connections just come tumbling out of my mouth. You hear it if I go on other people's podcasts, you hear it on this podcast, you hear it if you've ever spoken to me in person.

1:03:06 And it's like oh everybody's gonna have this. And It's it makes me excited. Because it only makes my ability to make the podcast better. Again, just organized like hey I wanna be really easy to interface with.

1:03:17 If you follow me on social media, by the way. Please if you don't already. David Sunder at LinkedIn at Founders Podcast everywhere else. Uh Everything like I'm gonna be using an interface with it's like you're gonna follow

1:03:27 These accounts are you're gonna listen uh to this podcast'cause you want to learn from his greatest entrepreneurs. That's it. And y you know, I don't have to belabor that point, you're smart enough to understand why that's that's so important to do. And all I can think about is like this is gonna be a giant platform. Right now founders and co founders and some executives and a bunch of investors

1:03:47 Are using it. I think entire companies are gonna use this. And so if that mission sounds interesting to you and you want to help, really easy way to help. Sign up either for an annual subscription or a one time, and you can do that at foundersnotes.com. That is founders with an S. Foundersnotes.com. Obviously everything I talk about is at founderspodcast.com too. So you can go through there. But foundersnotes.com, thank you very much.

1:04:09 I've been talking too much. I'll talk to you very soon.

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