#747: Seth Godin and Dr. Sue Johnson

0:00 Okay, this is gonna be part confessional, as some of you know. I am recently single and navigating the world of modern dating. What a joy that is. Sometimes it's fun, but it's mostly a goddamn mess, as many of you probably know. I've tried all the dating apps and while there's some slick options out there, the most functional that I have found is the league. I've been using it for a few months now. And I found some great matches. I am going to use this ad, this sponsor read, to selfishly share my own profile with the ladies listening to this podcast. My handle is Tim Tim.

0:34 That's uh At Tim Tim or just Tim Tim. I think you can search by person and just put in Tim Tim and you'll find me. And uh then you can match with me. I'll tell you more about what I'm looking for in a bit. But before that, why did I end up using the league? First, most dating apps give you almost no information. It's a huge time suck. On the league, you're starting with a baseline of smart people and you can then easily find the ones you're attracted to. It's much easier. It's like going to a conference where everyone is smart and then just looking for the people you think are cute to go up and speak with. So more than half of the league users went to top forty colleges and you can make your filters really selective. So if that's important to you, then Go for it. It does work. And that is one of the reasons that I use it. Second, people verify using LinkedIn. So you can make sure they have a job and don't bounce around every six months. It's a simple proxy for finding people who have their shit together. It's infinitely easier.

1:32 than trying to figure things out on Instagram or whatever. Third, you can search by interest and in multiple locations. I haven't found any other dating app that allows you to do this. So for instance, I usually search for women who love skiing or snowboarding. Have those as interests as I like to spend say two to three months of the year in the mountains. I'm a rivers and mountains guy. The UI is a little clunky, I'll warn you, but it's incredibly helpful for finding good matches and not just pretty faces. So you can search by interest and specify multiple cities. So to summarize a few things that I think Make it stand out. Features available in the league include multi-city dating.

2:08 LinkedIn verified profiles ability to block your profile from co workers, bosses, family, et cetera. That's very easy to do. You can search by interest and You can get profile stats and there is a personal concierge in the app. So you there's someone you can text with within the app as a personal concierge to get help. So what am I looking for? I am looking for a woman who is well educated and who loves skiing. Or snowboarding. Or both. These are and I've used this word already, proxies for like twenty other things that are important. So just I'll leave it at that for now. Someone who's default upbeat.

2:40 Likes to smile. Smiles often. class half full type of person who would ideally like to have kids in the next few years. Her friends would describe her as feminine and playful, and she would love polarity in a relationship. She's athletic and has some muscle. I like strong women. Not necessarily bodybuilders, but you get the idea. It could be a rock climber, dancer, whatever, but has some muscle, loves to read, and loves learning. If this sounds like you. send hashtag dateim. So hashtag date Tim in a message to your concierge in the app to get us paired up.

3:11 Again, you can also find my profile under the handle Tim Tim. That's all one word. T I M, T I M. So These are all reasons why I was excited when the League reached out to sponsor the podcast, uh, not the least of which is that I get to pitch my dating profile on the podcast. They even have daily speed dating where you can go on three three minute dates with people who match your preferences all from the comfort of your couch. So check it out. Download the league today. on iOS or Android and find people who challenge you to swing for the fences and who are in it to win it. I found it to be

3:43 Super fascinating. You can really get good matches instead of just looking at pretty faces and kind of rolling the dice over and over again. Much better. So download the link today on iOS or Android and check it out. Message hashtag Tim to your in app concierge to jump to the front of the wait list and have your profile review. First. Check it out. The league. On iOS or Android.

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7:07 A cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoscal. S Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferris. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris Show, where it is my job to sit down with world class performers. From every field imaginable to tease out the habits. routines, favorite books, and so on that you can apply.

7:34 And test in your own lives. This episode is a two for one, and that's because the podcast recently hit its tenth year anniversary, which is insane to think about. And past one billion downloads. To celebrate. I've curated some of the best of the best, some of my favourites.

7:51 From more than seven hundred episodes over the last decade. I could not be more excited. To give you these super combo episodes, and internally we've been calling these The Super Combo episodes. Because my goal is to encourage you to, yes, enjoy the household names, the super famous folks.

8:07 But to also introduce you to lesser known people I consider. Stars. These are people who have transformed my life and I feel like they can do the same for many of you. Perhaps They got lost in a busy news cycle, perhaps you missed an episode.

8:21 Just trust me on this one, we went to great pains to put these pairings together. And for the bios of all guests. You can find that and more at Tim.blog slash combo. And now, without further ado. Please enjoy.

8:36 And thank you. For listening. First up Seth Godin Entrepreneur.

8:43 Speaker and author of twenty one international bestsellers. Including Purple cow Lynchpin. The dip.

8:51 This is Marketing. And his new book. The Song of Significance. A new manifesto for teams. You can find Seth at

9:00 S E T H S Dot blog I've been very impressed in some of our conversations by the rules that you've established for yourself. for saying yes or no to certain things.

9:15 Perhaps we could start if you're willing to talk about it with Speaking engagements. Speaking engagements. as you've experienced, if you have a successful book, I went from kind of zero to sixty very quickly unexpectedly. and said yes to everything. And it just turned into a parody of Up in the Air. I mean I felt like a traveling salesman or

9:33 Jack Lemon and Glengarry Glen Ross, it was horrible. What are your rules for for instance speaking engagements to whatever extent you're comfortable talking about them. Oh, I'd be happy to. And then I'll scroll back a little bit and tell you why I have to have rules for things like that.

9:49 For speaking engagements I don't want to do more than thirty a year. Because They are At least for me

9:58 Not additive to the joy of my day. Except for the hour I'm on stage. So I am prepared to do an unlimited number of speaking engagements in zip code one oh seven oh six. Um Monday I'm going to Carnegie Hall to talk.

10:13 For free to Twenty five. music students who have You know. devoted their lives to doing what they do.

10:20 And it's a privilege to do something like that. If I have to get on an airplane, it's a whole other project. So I think really hard about What impact am I trying to make? And will this

10:30 Help me move things forward, which is where this nests into. My mentor and late friend Zig Ziggler used to talk about The idea he used to say.

10:41 I've never changed anyone's life with a speaking gig. But sometimes I do a speaking gig and they buy my cassettes. And if they buy my cassettes, I got a shot at changing their life. And for me, my mission and has been for a long time is to make a certain kind of change happen.

10:58 I wanna help people see The world differently. And If they choose to make a different choice after they see the world differently.

11:07 I wanna help people. Connect to each other. And to use that connection to make things better. And I don't wanna be a T V personality, so the question is How do I

11:19 Bring that teaching to people. And what I found is it's a very unique situation. When you have five hundred or five thousand high powered people In a room. Who

11:31 Didn't expect That you were gonna be there? But now that you're there are eager To hear what you have to say. And they set aside their

11:40 Twitter account and they set aside their preconceptions And for Forty five minutes or an hour you have a screen that's thirty feet by twenty feet and you have a microphone that's amplified. And maybe just maybe

11:52 You can get under their skin. And if you do, maybe just maybe They go back to their office and get ten copies of your turn and hand'em out to their team. And

12:02 Then I can Do that practice that I seek. Which is to change the conversation. So that's why I do it at all. And the further away it is, the less likely.

12:13 Is that fair to say that you're not going to be able studied a little bit of economics is I changed the price. Los Angeles costs three times as much as New York. And if you don't think that's fair, then don't make me go to Los Angeles. You said

12:28 You're going to elaborate on why you need rules. And maybe you just did. Maybe that was the answer. But Well because the phone rings, right? And Lots of people want. A thing. And if it doesn't align with the thing that is your mission And you say yes.

12:42 Then Now it's their mission. And There's nothing wrong with being A wandering generality instead of a meaningful specific.

12:51 But Don't expect to make the change you seek to make if that's what you do. You know, the thing is, and Derek I thought your interview with Derek was one of the best ones you've ever done. Oh thanks. Derek makes it Quite easy. Derek Sivers is amazing. I adore him. And

13:07 He talked about offense versus defense. And if you think hard about One's life. Most people spend most of their time on defense. In reactive mode. Definitely. In playing with the card they got, instead of

13:22 moving to a different table with different cards. Instead of Seeking to change other people, they are willing to be changed. And Part of the

13:32 arc of what I'm trying to teach is Everyone who can hear this. has more power than they think they do. And the question is what are you gonna do with that power? Because it comes with responsibility right out of Spider Man, but that responsibility is

13:47 You're gonna make change happen. Or you're gonna ignore it and if you make change happen, that's on you. This is maybe going to turn into a therapy session for myself, but I've found myself, I mean, we were just talking about books and their place and culture feeling like I'm in a transition point and you've been so consistent.

14:05 And so present. For so many people for so long, your readers, et cetera. How do you navigate big transitions in your own life, and that's a very general question. But for instance, I find my s the reason the podcast started was because I was burned out on books. It was after the four hour chef, six hundred and seventy some odd pages. I just felt so battle weary.

14:25 and run down by publishing that I wanted to take a break. And the podcast was a side project that then became It's owned. Entire. thing all together. But

14:36 When you find yourself wondering maybe what to do next, I mean how do you navigate some of those larger transitions. And I mean if you have any examples that come to mind. All right, well the good news is you did exactly the right thing. And

14:51 I applaud it. It's not easy to do that. Because it means going from a place where by outside measures you are about to succeed again. to a place where by outside measures you might not. Hence the motto This might not work.

15:06 And so on a good day My story to myself is this might not work. That's my job. to do something that might not work. And The number of projects I've done.

15:18 Big and small exceeds most people's and the number of failures I have dramatically. Exceeds most people's, and I'm super proud of that. More proud of the failures. Then the successes Because it's about this mantra. H

15:31 Is this generous? Is this gonna connect? Is this gonna change people for the better? Is it worth trying? If it meets those criteria. And I can Cajole myself into doing it. Then I ought to.

15:44 Right. And the transitions Aren't easy. I regularly spend months Telling people that I'm unemployed and in between projects. How did you decide

15:56 Or what is the thinking behind daily blog versus say A longer blog post once a week or at some other frequency. So the Daily Blog Evolved and it's

16:07 One of the top five career decisions I've I've ever made. In terms of Having a practice That resonates

16:17 With the people. Who I need to resonate with. That I can do. forever and have been doing for more than eight years now. And that leaves the trail behind.

16:28 I don't need anyone's permission. I don't need to go out and promote it. I don't use any analytics. I don't have comments it's just This is what I noticed today and I thought I'd share it with you.

16:38 And for a while. It was an intermittent blog and then it was a five times a day blog. I do write five posts a day. I just don't Publish five posts a day. But it became clear.

16:49 That I could get the appropriate amount of mind space. Do you draft By hand in word in a particular program. I type right into type hat.

17:01 So I learned this from Chip Conley. Have you had Chip on the show? I haven't, but I love Chip. He's a great guy. Great guy. So Chip and I went to business school together. And he was the

17:11 third youngest person in the class and I was the Second youngest person in the class. So he got five of us together. And every Tuesday night we met in the anthropology department. For four hours.

17:23 And We brainstormed. More than five thousand business ideas over the course of the first year of business school. It was magnificent.

17:32 It wasn't official, it wasn't sanctioned, it was just chip said, Let's do this, and we did. And he picked the anthropology department'cause he knew someone there and could get the conference room. And he said. This is the only place we will ever do this. And the reason is when you walk into this room

17:48 You will associate this room with what we do here. That's all. And I feel the same way about my blog. If I'm in the type pad editor.

17:57 I know exactly what My brain needs to feel like And then the writing happens. What is your Writing warm up.

18:06 look like and when do you typically write. One of my fans said that you'd at some point this could be a misquote, but said that you had an elaborate or Extreme. sort of mental warm up for Writing. Do you write in the mornings or what time do you typically write? Okay, so now I need to tell you about Stephen King's pencil.

18:23 Yes, please. 'Cause I feel very strongly about this. Stephen King often goes to writers' conferences. And there'll be this question and that question and the next question. And inevitably someone raises their hand and says, Stephen King You were one of the most successful

18:37 Revered. Writers of your generation. What kind of pencil do you use? I won't go there.

18:45 It doesn't matter. It's a way to hide. It's not interesting to me. To talk about how I do it because there's no correlation that I have Ever encountered. Between how writers write And how good their work is. So we should just

18:59 Move on because it doesn't matter. All right. I'll make a confession then, which is when I feel blocked. Which does happen with writing. I take a long time to get to the point where I feel like I have the balls in the air well enough to put pieces together. It it's just takes me a long time to synthesize, but

19:19 Not unlike some coders, I guess, but the point I was gonna make is that I went to a conversation between Poe Bronson, a writer and then and another gent, I'm blanking on his name. And I asked Pope during a Q and A what he did when he felt blocked or couldn't figure out what to do next in writing, and he said, Write what makes you angry. Write about what makes you angry. And I found that very helpful. It was a very helpful way to at least get

19:44 the hand or the brain moving To break the ice. I totally agree. That's not the question. If you said to Poe Bronson. How do you write these books that are remarkable and thoughtful and generous?

19:57 I don't think his answer is Every morning I get as angry as I can and then agree. Agreed. So You and I could List twenty five tricks. That help us get past the resistance.

20:08 and start the flow of writing. But that's different than saying I need to do it like those other people do it. Agreed. I guess. in the buffet of things that have been helpful along those lines, if for whatever reason didn't get a good night's sleep.

20:25 Feeling off. You sit down to write. Right. This is easy. All right. The answer to this question is Right, right poorly.

20:33 Continue writing poorly. Wrong. Until it's not Bad anymore. And then you'll have something you can use. People who have trouble coming up with good ideas

20:43 If they're telling you the truth. Will tell you they don't have very many bad ideas. But people have Plenty of good ideas. if they're telling you the truth will say they have even more bad ideas.

20:54 So the goal isn't to get good ideas, the goal is to get bad ideas. 'Cause once you get enough bad ideas. Then some good ones. Have to show up. what are some of the top business decisions that you've made?

21:05 We'll go way back and I would say The first one which is Useful to everybody. Is Sell something that people want to buy.

21:14 My friend Lynn is a brilliant, brilliant thinker and designer. And for years she was In the business of designing toys. And Soft goods for moms with toddlers.

21:26 And every toy company in America Was mean to her, rejected her, had nothing to do with her. And I said Lynn. It's simple. Toy companies don't like toy designers.

21:38 They're not organized to do business with toy designers. They're not hoping toy designers will come to them. I said come with me into the book business because every day There are underpaid really smart people in the book business who wake up Waiting. For the next great idea to come.

21:54 Across their desk. They're eager to buy what you have to sell. And within Two months she did the Decks of cards, the fifty two decks.

22:03 And Sold more than five million decks of cards. And that's because They appreciated her. So if you think about how hard it is to push a business uphill, particularly when you're just getting started.

22:16 One answer is to say Why don't you just start a different business? A business you can push downhill. Yeah. This is a good lesson. Yeah. Sometimes I there's a fetishizing of the sort of rolling of the stone like Sisyphus.

22:32 And you know, in Silicon Valley there's just like fetishizing of it. of the pain. And I'm like, maybe your model's just too difficult. Maybe you should choose a different business. Okay, that is a good lesson. Any other Well so then the the other lesson it Happens all the time.

22:49 Which is Knowing when I'm wrong. His A useful Skill.

22:57 And Lots of people. Who do good work. have trouble knowing when they haven't done good work and they think they should stick with it. Other people Have done good work, don't think they have, and they pivot too soon.

23:11 So figuring that moment out. Nineteen ninety four. I'm running one of the first internet companies. We invented commercial email. And Mark Hurst shows me this thing called The world wide web.

23:24 And I say, That's stupid. It's just like Prodigy. Except it's slower and there's nobody to pay us money. And for six months I persisted in pointing out That the world wide web make no sense whatsoever.

23:39 And Then one day just woke up and said, Wait a minute, let me look at that again. And we completely changed how we decided we were going to do our business. The same thing is true. with the cover of all marketers are liars because the cover

23:55 And the title was super clever. And wrong. It was not a matter of me. persisting in persuading people that they needed to get the joke.

24:05 It was merely a matter of Persuading the publisher. We should make the paperback have a different cover. And a different title. Yeah.

24:12 If you're gonna Try a lot of things, you're gonna Fail a lot. And figuring out the difference between The failures

24:19 of your judgment versus the failures of not persisting long enough. is a useful skill. And I'm still not great at it, but I'm better at it than I was. You've interacted with many more entrepreneurs than I have, I would say, at this point. One of the questions that I get constantly that you might have a better answer for because I don't have a great answer for it right now is

24:40 How do I discern between An idea that I should keep persisting with despite many, many, many, many rejections versus A bad idea that I should abandon that is getting the same Type of rejection.

24:54 that I'm equally enthusiastic about. And that that's a very wordy way to put it. But I get question I get some version of that question all the time. How would you answer that? Well, first we have to scroll back. There's a difference between freelancers and entrepreneurs. Most people who are independent are freelancers. They get paid when they work.

25:13 They do good work and get paid for it. А фіпора антропринерс. Building a business bigger than themselves. A business that makes the money when they sleep. A business where they don't actually do the work that the customer is buying.

25:27 And a business that they can sell one day. So We look at Larry Ellison, Larry Ellison doesn't code at work. Larry Allison doesn't make most of the sales calls.

25:37 What does Larry Elson do actually his job is to think about Something that needs to be done and hire someone else to do it. Over and over again. Building something bigger than himself.

25:47 So the first thing I would say to the person who's confused is Well are you an entrepreneur or a freelancer? If you're an entrepreneur then you have signed up for a series of Choices and challenges. And

26:02 Again, start with selling something. people want to buy. There's no reason Two Try to invent

26:10 A need. When there are so many needs and wants that are unfilled. Right. People didn't wake up. Ten years ago and say, I need an Uber.

26:21 But they did wake up ten years ago and say, I need an easy, inexpensive way to get from A to B. Correct. Once you could go to someone and say I have that. People would say, I want that. But if you're

26:34 Just saying I'm really clever. I know what you should want. And when you tell people what it is, they don't want it. You're either talking to the wrong people or you made the wrong thing. The blog post I point people to the most. It's called first ten.

26:49 And it is a simple theory of marketing that says Tell ten people, show ten people, share it with ten people, ten people who already trust you. And already w like you. If they don't tell anybody else It's not that good, and you should start over.

27:03 And if they do tell other people, you're on your way. So the reason I don't use Twitter is I saw Twitter early, which is unusual for me. And I said, Wow, I could do this and have a lot of followers. And then I said, Well what What that mean.

27:17 A it would mean less time spent writing my blog. B It would mean exposing myself. Two Anonymous comments from people who want me to pay attention to them.

27:28 Will either of those two things make me better at the things I want to be good at? No. Will it be A thrill. In the sense that there'll be a little fearful edge to it every time I interact? Yes. But

27:41 I have conservation of fear. And I have to be really careful. Because if I'm busy sorting through more stuff, the cognitive load goes up. And I can't do what Neil Gaiman does. Like Neil

27:55 Famously has said Yeah. The way he writes a book is he makes himself extremely bored. And If he's bored enough

28:05 A book's gonna come out. Because it's he needs to entertain himself. Well the problem most people don't understand about social media. Social media wasn't invented. To make you better. It was invented.

28:17 to make the company's money. And you are an employee of the company and you are the product that they sell. And they have put you in a little hamster wheel and they throw little treats in now and then. But you gotta decide What's the impact you're trying to make? And

28:33 Just Still comes back to the fear thing. And one of the Biggest misunderstandings

28:41 Who are into that whole Quantified self thing. His They are confusing. Quantifying the self.

28:49 With Dancing with the fear. And they're completely different things to do in a given day. That one is

28:59 Tailorism, it's scientific management. It's Productivity. It's we need to move these widgets from one place to another. What's the most efficient way? And I'm glad we got good at industry. 'Cause it makes our lives way more Rich, right?

29:13 But Our economy, our world And our soul aren't fulfilled by that. They're fulfilled by people

29:22 who do something that has never been done before. And if it's never been done before, you can't quantify it. Because it's never been done before. And so to be good at it. doesn't mean you quantify your way to it. To be good at it means

29:36 You clear the decks. So that All that's left. Is you And

29:43 The Muse. You and the fear. You and the change you want to make in the world. I can't think of something That's more productive for the kind of people.

29:53 Blessed enough to be Rich enough to be listening to this. To focus their energy on. We don't need Folks like that to go from ninety words per minute to a hundred and five words per minute when they type.

30:05 It's not A factor. What we need is for them to type something that's worth reading. What opportunities where you offered doesn't have to be specific that you're glad you turned down. Are there any particular examples that come to mind? And if not,

30:20 I can move on. opportunities that you've turned down. So for me, for instance, one of them would be every reality TV show invite I've ever had. I'm thrilled and I was I was extremely tempted early on. But in retrospect. Extremely happy I said no to all of that.

30:38 Yes. This is a great point. T V Runs deep in our culture. So They wanted me to be on it. That super famous one and then that other one and I never

30:48 hesitated in saying no because that's the moment When you decide who you want to be. Right. And so I paid extra careful attention. to the question and after careful attention to my answer.

31:01 And it resonated. I would say the biggest shift Which is For Silicon Valley people. Hard to

31:09 There's a game being played there and it's just a game I've opted out of. His When I was at Yahoo during the Renaissance in nineteen ninety nine. Bill Gross, who's a super nice guy.

31:21 Came to me and asked me. to be head of marketing for the company he was building. It had Steven Spielberg on the board. It was teed up to be the seventh next IPO.

31:33 And there were a billion Dollars and stock options on the table. And I said to myself, Well If I say yes to this, I've decided what I do for the rest of my life, which is say yes to the next one, because I don't need to say yes to this. to buy cilantro and

31:50 Vodka. Why would I say yes? It's'cause I like the game. And I didn't say yes. And even though the billion dollars in stock options never came around. I think I'd be even more proud of it if they had.

32:02 Because Money a story. Once you have enough for beans and rice and taking care of your family and a few other things, money is a story. And You can tell yourself any story you want about money.

32:16 And it's better. To tell yourself a story about money. That you can happily live with. Could you elaborate? On that a little bit. What is your story about money?

32:25 Is it what you just said? Because I this is a really important point. It's something I've been Trying to mull over. And in the last year or so in particular. Well let me start with the marketing story about money, which is Take

32:39 A ten dollar bill and go to the bus station. And walk up to someone and say, I'll sell you this ten dollar bill for a dollar. And you should actually do this. No one will buy it from you. And there are a few reasons for this. The first reason is no one goes to the bus station hoping to do a financial transaction. The second one is

32:57 Only an insane person would try to sell you a real ten dollar bill. For a dollar and Dealing with insane people's Tricky. So

33:06 It must not be a real ten dollar bill and you should just walk away. Now. Let's try a different thing. Put a ten dollar bill in your neighbor's mailbox when he's not home and run away. Do it the next day.

33:18 Do it the third day. On the fourth day. Ring your neighbor's doorbell and say, I'm the guy who left Three. Ten dollar bills in your mailbox.

33:26 Here's another one. You wanna buy it for a dollar? You'll sell it. Because your neighbor knows you're crazy, but you're crazy in a very spicular way. And you've earned The trust.

33:37 It's a real ten dollar bill, right? So We Assume that ten dollar bills are worth ten dollars, but no, it's a mutual belief and if the belief isn't present, they're worth nothing.

33:48 Now we get to Are internal narrative about money. Is money That number, it's not even pieces of paper anymore. It's a m number on a screen. Is that a reflection of your worth as a human?

34:01 one of the things that Derek said on your podcast that I sort of disagree with. His Yeah. Being rich is a symbol that you've created a lot of value for a lot of people.

34:12 I think lots of times that's just actually not true. And There are lots of ways to create value for people, and most of them do not involve money. So what we have to decide Once

34:25 We're okay. Once we're not living on three dollars a day, once we have a roof Once we have health care. Is we have to decide. How much more money

34:34 And what am I gonna trade for it? Because we always trade something for it. Unless we're fortunate enough that the very thing we wanna do Is the thing that also gives us our maximum income. And

34:46 I don't think that's Merely because some blog decides that people with big valuations are doing better. That doesn't mean you should listen to them.

34:58 My fans on Twitter and Facebook were related to education and they generally came in the form of In a number of themes. One was you know, could you have him elaborate on his sort of education manifesto. The other was, hey, I have a kid who's in fourth grade. I have a kid who's just going to be entering school. What would Seth do in my shoes? And you don't have to tackle those

35:19 Right off the bat. But as That is context. Could you tell us more? About what you're up to. This is a rant and is not about what I'm up to. It's about what I was up to. And the rant is this.

35:31 Sooner or later parents Have to take responsibility. For putting their kids into a system That is indebting them. and teaching them to be cogs in a economy that doesn't want cogs anymore.

35:44 And Parents get to decide. I'm a huge fan of public school. Send my kids to public school. I think everyone should go to public school'cause it's a great Mix master of our world.

35:55 But From three o'clock to ten o'clock, those kids are getting home schooled and they're either getting home schooled than watching the Flintstones Are they getting home schooled? In learning something.

36:05 Useful. And I think We need to teach kids two things. One, how to lead. And two

36:13 How to solve interesting problems. Because the fact is there are plenty of countries on earth where there are people who are willing to be obedient And work harder for less money than us. So we cannot out obedience The competition.

36:28 Therefore We have to outlead or outsolve. The other people. I don't care what country they live in in Wyoming Or across the world.

36:38 Who want Whatever is scarce. The way you teach your kids To solve interesting problems. is to give them interesting problems to solve.

36:46 Mm. And then Don't criticize them. When they fail. Because

36:52 Kids aren't stupid. If they get in trouble every time they try to solve an interesting problem, they'll just go back to getting an A by memorizing what's in the textbook. It's so important here, and I spend an enormous amount of time with kids. I produced the the Wizard of Oz, the musical in fourth grade. I used to help run a summer camp. I think

37:11 That it's a privilege to be able To look. A trusting energetic, smart eleven year old in the eye and tell him the truth. And what we can say to that eleven year old is

37:24 I really don't care. how you did on your vocabulary test, I care about whether you have something to say. And We can teach our kids from a young age.

37:38 We want them to be. And Anything that's worth memorizing is worth looking up now. So we don't need to have them spend a lot of time Getting good grades so they can go into a famous college.

37:50 Because famous colleges don't work anymore. Famous college isn't the point anymore. The point is Is there an entity? They will have trouble living without you.

38:00 When you seek To earn a living.'Cause if there is you'll be able to make a living. If on the other hand you're waiting in the placement office For someone to pick you

38:09 You will be persistently undervalued. You talked earlier about Writing daily as a practice. listening to the audio books as a practice. Are there any practices that you would suggest to The

38:22 kind of overwhelmed busy parent who wants to start to be more proactive in this department. They have an eleven year old. Are there any practices or exercises that that you would suggest? Well, you know super well that busy is a trap and that busy is Is a myth. So What could possibly be more important than your kid? Please don't play the busy card.

38:44 If you spend Two hours a day. Without an electronic device. looking your kid in the eye. Talking to them.

38:53 And solving interesting problems. You will raise a different kid. Than someone who doesn't do that. And That's one of the reasons why.

39:03 I cook dinner every night. Because What a wonderful semi distracted environment. For the kid to tell you the truth. For you to have low stakes, but super important conversations.

39:16 with someone who's important to you. Right. This idea. Get home from work. Put on your sneakers and go for a walk with your kid.

39:25 Yeah, my friend Brian Walks his daughter to school every day. That's priceless. Well how can you be too busy to do that?

39:36 Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn Jobs. When you're hiring for your small business, you want to find quality professionals that are right for the role as soon as possible. That's why you have to check out LinkedIn Jobs. LinkedIn Jobs has the tools help find the right professionals. For your team faster. and for free. LinkedIn isn't just a job board. LinkedIn helps you hire professionals you can't find anywhere else. even those who aren't actively searching for a new job, but who might be open to the perfect role.

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40:46 Hire professionals like a professional on LinkedIn. And now you can post your job for free at LinkedIn.com slash Tim. That's LinkedIn.com slash Tim to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. I And now Doctor Sue Johnson.

41:06 who was a leading innovator in the fields of couples therapy and adult attachment. And the primary developer of emotionally focused couples and family therapy. Or EFT. Sadly. Doctor Johnson passed away in April of this year.

41:23 Her impact on the field of family therapy. Will be felt for generations. To learn more about how her work can improve your relationships. Check out her best selling book. Hold me tight.

41:35 And visit doctor Sue Johnson dot com Doctor Johnson, welcome to the show. Oh hey, I'm delighted to be with you, Tim. Thank you for inviting me.

41:46 I am Also thrilled to have you and we have An abundance of questions in front of me. We may cover some of them. I don't know. I don't get too attached to trying to cover them all because we'll run out of time. But I thought we would start with something that was mentioned in the intro and that I know will interest my audience, and that is

42:08 the peer reviewed clinical Research or research, depending on where you happen to be in the world. Could you speak to the actual science? And research related to your work. There's now over twenty outcome studies. Outcome studies in psychotherapy are very hard to do.

42:24 And there's a lot of noise in the system. There's lots of things going on in people's lives, you know. Life gets in the way. So You have to work very hard to get results. And

42:35 Follow up is the real the real thing that matters. And I we are the only Couple intervention. As far as I know. That has the size of results we get.

42:47 That impacts people the way we do that knows why we get these results. I can tell you exactly what needs to happen in therapy to get the results. And that gets fantastic follow up. We can work with a couple for Fourteen to twenty sessions.

43:03 We can look at them at the end of therapy. We can see that they are happier, more secure, more More securely bonded. Their sex life is better. They feel less depressed as individuals.

43:15 And we followed them up. Three years later. And the results hold. Which is Just so that everyone knows.

43:25 A st D. The latest one we're doing is we've got a great big one with the Heart Institute in Ottawa. Because The uh cardiologists have realized that

43:35 Actually if their patients have good relationships With their partners. They're much less likely to have another heart attack. They take their meds, they go to the gym. So then they said, Well, could you do something? And we said, Okay are you kidding?

43:51 We'll design a sixteen hour program for you and we'll research it. So we're doing that. But to be honest I do the research because we learn and because it's our way of Testing what what we think we know.

44:05 But It's not what really turns me on in the end. What turns me on is watching these couples learning from them. And watching them make these huge changes in their lives. I've been doing it for thirty five years.

44:17 And it turns me on Like I dance Argentine Tango. It turns me on like the best melonga ever. And dancing is the best partner ever. Okay. So I have many follow ups, of course, as questions. Just as a side note, I lived in Argentina from two thousand four to two thousand five and went to Milonga

44:41 Probably five or six times a week. Did a lot of tango, so we have that in common. Uh-huh. And if we focus just for a few more minutes on the research because this will be be a way of backing into defining EFT for folks, I think. So I've read that EFT has something like a like a seventy three to eighty six percent success rate.

45:03 in studies with distressed couples. And I would love to know. What? Or how success is defined in these studies. I think that would be helpful for people listening and

45:16 Then later we'll return to the durability of effect,'cause that's incredible that you're doing follow ups three years later and seeing that persistence of effect is really incredible. But how do you define success with distressed couples? That's a good question. And it depends on the study, but in general We define it with a measure of it's called marital adjustment. And it basically looks at

45:39 The couples Take perception of their marital satisfaction It's a bit more than satisfaction because it has different elements to it. So we use a scale that's been used in all kinds of research that's got all kinds of validity. But we've also used all kinds of measures

45:57 The one that I think's the most interesting is that we did a big study a few years ago looking not just at whether you we can help you change your marital satisfaction, your adjustment. The way you see your partner. We can help you change the security of your bond.

46:15 with your partner, which for me is much more significant Then satisfaction or saying, Yes, we have an adjusted marriage, you know, we have a good marriage. I trust this person in this marriage. To be able to say

46:30 We have a more secure bond. And we know how to create. that bond ongoingly in the future. That still amazes me that we know that because We've talked in our society forever.

46:44 About how romantic love is this great mystery. And it just sort of comes and hits you in the head, you fall in, you fall out. There's nothing much you can do about it. Well actually that's rot. No. And personally, I think it should be all over the front of the New York Times. We've cracked the code of love.

47:00 But the New York Times doesn't agree with me. So I think that's real big news for people. When we can show in our study which we did That we can take people. Very distressed people who don't trust each other, who can't talk to each other, who aren't intimate.

47:16 And We can in twenty sessions Create a bond where they can turn and be vulnerable with each other And they can say

47:26 I trust this person, I'm close to this person, I can be open to this person. This person's my special one. I trust this relationship. And they can do the things. We can see it on tape. They can do the things that securely attached people do in loving

47:42 Lasting relationships. That's very significant. We also find things like Depression goes down. when people are more securely connected with each other.

47:52 Anxiety goes down, people deal with trauma better. We see a lot of folks with PTSD. When you faced dragons You need to find comfort in the arms of another.

48:06 And that's just the way we're wired. And if you cannot find comfort in the arms of another You are hard pressed. From my point of view. No matter how many times you meditate, no matter how many tips you've learned.

48:19 No matter how much insight you have. If you can't find comfort in the arms of another to heal from trauma It's bad news. So we have a lot of different results. But

48:30 They're all on Measures that are accepted by the field as valid. They've all been in Peer reviewed journals. And believe me.

48:41 Reviewers are Brutal. To psychologists. They're brutal. Let me ask a few questions if I may jump in.

48:50 Then we're gonna we're going to continue, of course, on the path to defining what characterizes or describing what characterizes EFT, what scale do you use or scales do you use when assessing marital satisfaction and bond? And just for those people listening who may not know what we're talking about, there are different questionnaires and scales for different types of conditions. For instance, you might have the ham D for depression, you might have CAP five or CAPS five for PTSD I'm sure some people will be curious if there are any particular scales they could find themselves just to look at their own.

49:26 I believe I've put some of those scales in my book Love Sense, actually. We use the dyadic adjustment scale. Which has been used in marital research for Decades. For adjustment.

49:38 We use various things for things like depression. Like the Bet Pressure scale. For attachment. We use something called the experiences in close relationship. Scale.

49:49 Which is used In adult adult attachment research has only been going for the last twenty years. So it's young. Attachment research was really confined to mothers and children. For decades.

50:01 And the belief was that Once you hit twelve. You were supposed to become self sufficient. So attachment didn't matter very much. But that's changed. So now we have a whole field called attachment research.

50:13 And the experiences in close relationship. Scale. Is the measure we use. However We have also used observational measures

50:23 like coding couples interactions as they talk. And we can talk about that. We talk about something called a hold me tight conversation. we can code the behaviors are totally different when they come into therapy and when they're finished. And my favorite one. Which I can't resist talking about.

50:41 Is that we did a brain scan study. With a wonderful colleague of mine. From the University of Virginia called Jim Cohn. You're a scientist. When we

50:52 put the women we haven't got enough money to do both partners. So we had to choose. So we yes, I know. So we put the women in an MRI machine at the beginning. When they were distressed and Insecurely attached. And didn't believe that their partners loved them or cared for them.

51:10 We put the women in M RI machine at the beginning of therapy and then at the end of therapy When they had these hold me tight conversations. And we were a bit brutal when I think about it. We put them in the MRI machine and we said When you see an X in front of your face

51:26 There's a good chance You're gonna be shot on your ankles. It's gonna hurt. And it did hurt because we tried it on my research assistant and she told us very clearly Nice.

51:38 That it hurt. Okay. So we turn the machine down a bit. But What was interesting is at the beginning Before therapy, before EFT. We showed these women this X.

51:49 And their brains went into immediate alarm. On the MRI. High, high alarm state because they're expecting the shock. And once we delivered the shock we asked if it hurt and they said it was painful or extremely painful. This is in a journal called Plus One. And

52:06 After Sessions of therapy after EFT. When they'd had these bonding conversations By the way We put them in.

52:15 And we Since you're interested in research, I'll tell you a bit of detail Basically They saw the X when they were alone in the machine. When they held their partner's hand when they were in the machine and when a stranger held their hand.

52:28 Before therapy in all three conditions Their brains went berserk and they said that The shock is extremely painful. After therapy, we put them in the machine again, did the same thing. They saw the X.

52:41 When the stranger held their hand. Or when they were alone in the machine. Same thing as before. Their brain went berserk and they said it was extremely painful. This time After EFT.

52:54 And the bonding conversations When their partner held their hand. Reached into the machine and held their hand. Their brain stayed completely calm. It looked like a resting brain. It looked like they were

53:06 Just resting there. Their brain stayed completely calm, and if you ask them if the shot hurt They said it was uncomfortable. And so I'm not a neuroscientist, so I saw these

53:17 Brain scans. And there was some blue lighting up. after therapy and I said to my colleague Jim, what does the blue mean? I can't see any red for alarm anymore, but what does the blue mean? And he said, It means they're not dead soon.

53:31 Oh okay. So that's So he said that's just a resting brain. Oh okay, jolly good. So That

53:42 Spoke to me amazingly because Psychology is often dismissed as a sort of soft science. And you know, indeed we deal with many intangibles. But For me that was incredibly neat because you could see it and you could see

53:57 That we're talking about biology here. But we're talking about the biology Of a social being A being

54:05 Whose brain is wired For connection with other people. and who needs this connection with other people to thrive and survive. Love is an ancient wired in survival code. We have all these silly misinformation in our society.

54:22 silly what we call love stories. They're still out there. Psychology puts out a lot of misinformation. about love is some strange mixture of sex and sentiment. No. Romantic love is about bonding.

54:36 And it's an ancient wide in survival code, and you could sure see it in these MRIs. These women's brains when they had this secure connection with their partner. These women's brains We're completely different. than in the beginning when they felt no safe connection with their partner. So it was very, very interesting.

54:55 I would love to Dig into what sounds like the glue. Involved in some of the Bond enhancement. As demonstrated in the follow up F M R

55:07 Yeah. And that is the hold me tight conversation. Maybe this is a way also of coming in sideways to Basically demonstrate what EFT is, or at least a component of it. Could you walk us through what a hold me tight conversation is? A whole big tight conversation. Very briefly is a bonding conversation. The tricky part is that

55:28 As adults, some of us have never seen this conversation. So it's a dance that is foreign to us. We've never had it with our own parents. We've never had it with siblings, we've never had it with previous lovers. And we get married or we get committed to a partner.

55:47 And It's reasonable that we Don't know how to go there. Because many of us it's just not a drama that we've ever seen enact it. A hold me tight conversation.

55:58 is where one person is able to Open up and reach for the other person and share vulnerabilities. Talk about their needs and fears. In a way that's Pulls the other person close.

56:12 It helps the other person reach back and respond. Could you give any examples of freezing or questions or or guidelines you provide? That would be I I I know I would love to know and I suspect others would too. Well when you don't trust and you don't feel safe and you've never seen a hold me tight conversation The way it usually goes just naturally as human beings. I catch myself doing this. With my husband, if I'm upset about something.

56:37 Like he's been going to bed very early. But that means that we don't have our Snuggle time, we don't have our little chat time. Okay, and it doesn't seem to bother him at all. It doesn't seem to bother him, this isn't happening. This will go on for a couple of weeks and

56:52 Even though I'm doing this work There's a certain point where I start to get self protective. And I start to blame him in my head. And I say He's always too busy. He's got his lists.

57:03 He's got lists. That's what he and he's a man and he's got lists and all he cares about is his lists of tasks. And he's just into problem solving. And he doesn't think about me at all. And this dialogue will go in my head. So I turn to him and I say

57:16 You're going to bed very early. These days? Listen to my voice. It's the emotional music. He says No?

57:25 Ha ha ha. Because he hears the threat in my tone, I say yeah sure. And you've been going to bed for weeks and I guess it doesn't matter to you that we're not having. Those close moments. A listen to me.

57:37 I mean I'm on the attack. And we are To signs of rejection or abandonment by the people we love.

57:49 Acutely sensitive. That's how we're wired. So he hears that he's blown it. He hears it that I'm Rejecting him, I'm telling him he's done something wrong.

57:58 So he says, I don't want to talk about this right now. I say, Oh, let me guess you have to go to bed'cause you're so tired. Right. So we're off, right? Okay, that is the typical Demand withdraw, demand defend. Dialogue that you'll see in a distressed couple.

58:17 And it's totally predictable. You can also have it with your kids. I can remember a glorious argument I had in Starbucks with my adolescent son that was Just Perfect example of the way distressed couples talk to each other. So I'm blaming and pointing fingers and he's rolling his eyeballs and Basically telling me what a dreadful mother I am. So you can have it with anyone, but with partners it's very predictable.

58:41 And it has everyone feeling completely threatened and unsafe. And unable to dance together. If you shift that into a hold me tight conversation. The way it would go. Is that I would be

58:54 more able to tune into my own needs. More aware of my own needs, accepting of my own needs. And I would realise Oh. I'm really missing those conversations.

59:07 With John. We've been married for thirty two years. We're both very strong people, so it's been quite an adventure. So I think oh, I'm missing Those relationships with John And

59:17 Maybe he doesn't miss them. And oh that makes me feel really Somehow anxious and uncomfortable if he doesn't miss them. Because The big question in love relationships is Are you there for me? Do I matter to you? Can I count on you?

59:34 Maybe those Conversations don't matter to him. But they really matter to me. So I am aware on a different level.

59:43 of me and I'm specifying That scares me a bit. Maybe these conversations don't matter to him. I can tune into my own emotions. Then I take the risk.

59:54 And reach for him. And say to him, I'm open. I say to him. You know what? We haven't been having our usual talks. Late at night.

1:00:05 And Somehow it doesn't look like you miss them. And Somehow that makes me feel kind of really sort of uncomfortable. You know, it's almost feels

1:00:16 Like I'm I'm not sure that Closeness matters to you and So I could get angry about it. But actually what's happening is

1:00:25 It sort of scares me a bit because I need those conversations. Now I've talked about my fears and my needs. I can only do that if I have some sort of model That it's okay to do that, that that doesn't mean I'm a wimp. Or mentally ill.

1:00:39 All week. Or pathetic. From my point of view, it's strength to do that. And that's what we teach I need strength to do that.

1:00:48 And that's what securely attached people can do. They can reach from a position of vulnerability. So I say that to him. And that Pulls him he says. Oh.

1:01:00 You're right. Yeah. Um Yeah. I really like those I really I do I do want those conversations.

1:01:10 I've just been so exhausted. And I've been doing this and I haven't wanted to tell you how stressed out I am. So then it becomes reciprocal. I say Oh. I didn't know that you were so stressed out.

1:01:23 about this decision we've made and that it's taking up all your energy and you're worried about it and So then we start to have An open, responsive, engaged conversation. Where we can share vulnerabilities, comfort each other. And we're literally

1:01:39 Better at tuning in. To each other. And I think that's because When I feel safe. I can tune into you.

1:01:48 When I think about the people I can dance with in Tango really well. It's the people I feel emotionally safe with. And I know that there's no mistakes because mistakes don't matter, we're just playing. Then I relax, I'm in my body. I tune into their cues.

1:02:03 And we move together naturally. So that's kind of what happens. And it's a hold me tight conversation. And it's Sort of cascades.

1:02:13 Each time you have this conversation It's Your nervous system. Goes oh This is comfort, this is home, this is safety, this is

1:02:24 This is what I need. And you see your partner as a resource. You see your partner as somebody who can provide this safety, comfort, caring Reassurance. Social support if you want to use a

1:02:39 psychological formal term for it. You see your partner as this person And your partner? connects and you know how to do this dance. This dance is innately Rewarding.

1:02:51 It. creates joy in people. You don't have to Persuade people to keep doing it like going to the gym. or meditation or their communication skills.

1:03:03 People will do this. Once they know how to do it. They'll keep doing it. And that's why I think we get good follow up results. Because

1:03:11 Once you start having these conversations. And It's very moving sometimes to see people's response like people We'll stop.

1:03:21 to cry and say things like When they discover these whole we tight conversations, people will say Thinking of one man who said I never knew that you could Talk.

1:03:33 To somebody like this. I never knew. That you could Asked for these things and uh She wants

1:03:41 Me to be. vulnerable to her. I never knew that. I never saw that growing up. I didn't know people did that. And then he wept. And he turned to the therapist and said. I've been alone all my life, haven't I?

1:03:56 Yeah. And that's What attachment science tells us is that emotional isolation It's toxic for human beings. Yeah, I mean we found out that in the pandemic, but

1:04:10 We still don't get it. I wish we would get it on a different level. It's toxic for human beings. It's not who we are. And when people start to have these Hold me tight conversations. What kinds of amazing things happen.

1:04:24 They don't just understand how relationships can be and how you can shape relationships. Don't have to just have them happen to you. You can shape love. They understand something very Deep about themselves.

1:04:37 Couples grow each other in safe relationships. Couples grow each other. I watch Severely traumatized people. Learn to trust another human being by having these hold me tight conversations with their partner.

1:04:50 And it changes everything. Because they have a secure place in life for the first time. They feel accepted. They feel held. And once you feel seen, accepted, and held

1:05:04 is a natural Human. growth process that happens Attachment with science is all about development of the personality. There's a natural growth process.

1:05:15 So we tune into that natural process in the hold me tight conversation. And those conversations predict Over study after study after study after study. Those conversations predict success. In the F T.

1:05:30 They predict more secure bonding, they predict better sex. More sexual satisfaction in couples. They predict Any sort of

1:05:40 Measure of good positive functioning you can imagine. Those bonding conversations Predict all the good results we get. in EFT and they predict results at follow up.

1:05:53 So I would love to ask more. about the hold me tight conversations and I'll share a bit of The Sort of context from which I'm asking this. So I We don't necessarily have to get into details, we could, but

1:06:09 I had quite a bit of uh severe Early childhood trauma. Like two to four. Two to four. And

1:06:16 Have not only felt largely alone my entire life, but have created isolation. It's been uh constant for me. Yes. And so what you're saying about these conversations helping to create the feeling of

1:06:32 Bondedness. And sort of counterweight perhaps someone's historical tendency to isolate or feel isolated. Yeah. here if you're open to sharing and perhaps another

1:06:46 Hypothetical Hold me tight conversation or other phrases or questions. that are helpful for people who want to get a better understanding of of what this might look like. In real life. Where we start with couples.

1:07:02 Many of whom have experienced being alone most of their lives, traumatized or not. Where we start? Is we help couples see the The dance they're caught in. Love is a dance. We help couples see the dance they're courting.

1:07:16 We help couples see The negative patterns, the most popular one of all is I become aware of the disconnection between the two of us. I get worried about it. It makes me anxious. And I don't feel safe enough to turn and really share my vulnerability.

1:07:32 So I demand I blame. I tell you, where are you? What I'm really saying is Where are you? Where are you? I can't find you and that alarms me. But what I say is things like you don't talk to me enough.

1:07:44 Or you know, you never tell me how you feel. Or you know, if you're a man you'll say You never tell me you want to make love. You don't ever show me you want me. What's wrong with you?

1:07:54 I said we turn to our partner, we say, What's wrong with you? So we help couples see how they scare the hell out of each other. And Create Even more insecurity.

1:08:05 And stop each other from being able to be vulnerable in risk. When they start to see that it's the pattern that's the problem. The dance this problem. And the fact they they don't know how to do a more positive dance

1:08:19 They start to blame the dance rather than each other. And they start to be able to say, Hey, we're stuck in that thing. We're stuck in that thing we do Where I shut down And shut you out, and you must be getting alarm right now. And the other person says, Yes, I'm starting to freak out.

1:08:34 And they say, Oh, let's not do that. Let's try and help each other feel a bit more safe. So We create that platform first, but then you have to start where people are. Sometimes with a hold me tight conversation with somebody who's been very traumatized.

1:08:49 And has all the reasons in the world Not to trust another human being. With the softness of their heart. All the good reasons in the world You have to start there.

1:09:03 I've worked with lots of traumatised folks and you have to start with Somebody saying Well, I understand now the patterns and how we've been caught in this dance. Well I understand that you aren't always trying to hurt me. Oh

1:09:19 Had me prove myself to you. Well prove me wrong. But I wanna tell you The idea of really opening up to you.

1:09:29 And showing you who I am. Just Feels impossible. I don't know how to do it. It's impossible. I don't think I can do it. So you start with people are you don't get people to do it in spite of how they feel.

1:09:44 You get them to trust their feelings. My experience is someone will say that. And I will say, could you turn and tell your partner, please? I don't think I can do it. I don't think I can risk letting you really see me.

1:09:59 I'm so sure. That you won't want me. Or that you'll find some way to hurt me. Then I don't know what would happen. I don't think I could tolerate it. I don't think I can do it.

1:10:10 Could you try and tell her? What I do is I Hold the person And I help them. Speak their emotions.

1:10:18 And say their emotions clearly. And I hold them in there. I support them in there. So Guy turns and tells his wife. And his wife says

1:10:28 And this is the amazing thing about bonding. This is who we are. We are empathic. Creatures. That empathy is blocked by all kinds of other things.

1:10:38 We are empathic creatures. My experience is the partner will say I never knew that. I just felt that you didn't want to share with me. I never knew it was so hard.

1:10:50 I never knew that it was scary for you. I never understood that. I can't believe I understand. I understand that Now you've helped me understand. How scary that is.

1:11:03 I can't believe That you're even here telling me this. And I love you for taking that risk. Thank you for taking that risk. And then the door opens wider. And then I say

1:11:16 Usually I say'cause we always have this catastrophe in our head. When we're afraid, we create catastrophes in our head to try and prepare for them, right? So I say What is gonna happen? If you really show her who you are,

1:11:32 And you show her how scared you are to really open up. And show your vulnerability. What is gonna happen? And he says. She'll tell me what I've always known.

1:11:43 She'll tell me that I'm weak? There's something wrong with me? And the reason that I've Been alone all my life. It's'cause there was something wrong with me.

1:11:53 And the reason I was so hurt when I was little Was because I wasn't a good enough kid. Or a special enough kid. Why didn't do it right. One lady broke my heart, she said.

1:12:05 I was so careful when I asked my mother for attention. I was so so careful that I plan it and plan it in the dark for hours. No matter how I did it. It never worked, it never worked. She was always angry at me. So I said to myself

1:12:22 It's me, it must be me. There's something wrong with me. I'm just not lovable. And she weeps. When she does that.

1:12:32 Her partner reaches for her naturally, her partner reaches for her and says This vulnerability When you really help people move into it with safety. Evokes caring and compassion. It just does.

1:12:46 So then the partner moves in and supports And gradually, gradually the other person's able to open up. It's not something that you do once. You know it's not something that you can

1:12:58 Do mechanically. You have to be involved in it. And for some of us If we've been desperately hurt when we were Niddle And we learned that that kind of openness was

1:13:09 Desperately dangerous. It's like jumping off a cliff. And you have to respect that you have to respect Emotions are in no way illogical. That's one of the big mistakes we've made in psychology.

1:13:21 They're in no way logical. They have their own logic. There is supreme Information processing system. That it wires us.

1:13:31 to see the world in a particular way, to move in a particular way. And We haven't taught people. How to understand them. Not to listen to them.

1:13:40 And how they make sense. They always make sense. If someone's terrified of that kind of openness It's because they have very good reasons to be. And Often they haven't told their partner.

1:13:53 They haven't told their partner anything about it, so their partner has no idea. The partner says, You just don't want to be close to me. You just don't want me. No, I do desperately want you. Just terrified.

1:14:06 To let you see me. In psychology we're very good at looking at the behavior and the problem. And Sometimes I feel like we're not so good at what we are supposed to be the experts in. Which is looking underneath.

1:14:19 behavior and the problem. And seeing the emotional realities that push that problem forward and keep people stuck in that problem. I don't know if I answered you, Tim. I there's so much to talk about here. I tried to answer you. I think you did. No, you can and I mean the

1:14:35 The examples are just heartbreaking. And I think they're heartbreaking. I mean, I was like feeling myself getting really emotional is because they resonate, I think, with so many people. They resonate with me, I should say. But I suspect that these types of situations are really, really common. But when you're experiencing them I think it's so easy to view yourself as uniquely flawed in some way. Yes. But it's so common. It's so common. It seems so common, at least. I mean you'd be more qualified to speak to it.

1:15:10 I think it is common and I think the power of attachment science is It tells us who we are. It tells us that we are Social beings wide for connection. We need safe connection with others.

1:15:23 To survive and thrive. Dependency became a dirty word somewhere through our history. And we all fell in love. With the image of the lone cowboy. Riding over the range.

1:15:36 The Eagles song Desperado. I love that song. It's my favorite song. Because it basically takes that image of the lone cowboy and basically says Buddy, you better find someone to love you because you're in deep trouble. So it it takes this strong image and says, No, you're in trouble. And

1:15:54 Dependency became this dirty word. And I think what attachment science says is We are interdependent human beings. Wide for connection with others from the cradle to the grave.

1:16:07 And When you present that to people, not the way I just said it, which is abstract. You know, when you move people into that reality and you accept it and say, of course, this is who we are as human beings, and we all get stuck here and we all need this. People go

1:16:25 Oh. Oh, you mean I'm not crazy bad? Deficient, defective, unlovable. No, no you're not. You're just a human being.

1:16:37 Who needs That connection with another human being. And who is Terrified of rejection and abandonment. And the reason you're terrified of rejection and abandonment

1:16:48 It's because those are Pure danger cues to your mammalian brain. Danger cues. Our young are vulnerable for longer than any other species. And while our brain is developing

1:17:00 We know perfectly well. On a visceral level. That if we call and no one comes, we die. And that's the truth. And that reality

1:17:13 Of our Long term vulnerability. has wired our nervous system in particular way. And creates these social dramas. Why at our

1:17:23 social dramas. What the father of attachment science, John Balby, who was a English psychologist really did, which is brilliant, is he linked biology and who we are and how our nervous system works. to our social interaction patterns.

1:17:39 So the way we dance with other human beings. He linked Within and between You link those two together. In um

1:17:47 Elegant. Beautiful, testable way. That gives us a map. Two Love relationships, how to shape them, how to fix them, how to repair them, how to keep them.

1:17:58 And to who we are as human beings. And this map is The way human beings have survived through the centuries is through tuning in to others, reading their cues. Collaborating, cooperating. Moving close supporting.

1:18:13 That's the way we've survived and If you look at the problems facing our world right now. We better be learning from this science because We better be able to do that, or we're not gonna survive. We've got to be able to come together.

1:18:28 You mentioned the child crying, so I must ask you a question to scratch my own itch and satisfy my curiosity, but I may accidentally invite you into a religious war. Not with me, but because I've seen very heated debates between and we don't have to spend a lot of time on this, but I would love to get your opinion. on and the backdrop of this is that I'm hoping do begin building a family in the near future. And I have two camps of friends. One cap?

1:18:59 Is their devout. Attachment parenting. The devotees and then on the other hand do you have sleep training. And there are many different types of sleep training. But do you have any do you have any do you have any thoughts on Because the the people so the people who are in a sleep training camp and there's their arguments make sense.

1:19:19 The arguments on both sides make a lot of sense. In so much as what I hear is you know, attachment parenting, the way they would Position it. Is This constant contact and sleeping near or with the baby.

1:19:32 is most natural. It is in the baby's best interest. If you look at evolution, that is what's supported. The people in the sleep training camp would say, That's great, but if you're not sleeping and we're no longer living in a village, we don't have the type of support that we had. If I don't get any sleep and my partner gets no sleep, we're going to be terrible parents and ultimately that is going to be bad for the baby. So

1:19:54 I don't know what to make. Of This and would would would love to get your perspective. Well My perspective is

1:20:02 That So what? Attachment says is the emotional balance. When you're securely attached and you feel safe in the world and you know you can count on others for support, you have your emotional balance. And sometimes when we take on Huge complex issues.

1:20:18 We lose our emotional balance. I don't think to create secure attachment in your kids That you have to sleep with them. Okay, I don't think so. You can if you want.

1:20:28 And I think you have to balance things like If you sleep with your kid in between you All the time for three or four years, what does that do to your couple relationship? And what your kid needs is a good couple relationship in the parents who can cooperate. Believe me, that's what your kid needs. So

1:20:45 That's an issue I think people sometimes go over the top. They take The good sense and the science of attachment and they turn it into rigid Life rules which I Think you have to

1:20:58 Make your own rules there. I think being emotionally responsive to your kids Is the key. And for them to know That you're there for them is the key doesn't mean you have to always show up in the same way and you have to be constantly available. For me, I I don't think so.

1:21:15 On the other hand I do have a visceral reaction. Two sleep training. I would like to suggest. That when you do sleep training

1:21:25 Your child does not calm down and learn to Rely on itself. What your child does is numb out. What your child learns. Is that no matter how I cry, nobody will come.

1:21:37 From my point of view, that's a Bloody disastrous lesson for any child to learn. So I have a huge bias against Now again, it depends on how it's done and it depends on what else is happening. So let's not get

1:21:52 Why not? Let's get judgmental. Um I think I think it stings. So if that's a religious war. I'm on the attachment side. Because It seems to me that the sleep training thing

1:22:05 feeds into a myth that we have that is so dangerous. The myth is about Self sufficiency And regulating our own emotions. And the bottom line is the only self sufficient human being is either numbed out on some drug or dead.

1:22:23 We're not wired for self sufficiency. And Shutting down and numbing out is a fragile strategy. You can't keep it up for your whole life. It shatters under any kind of pressure. So

1:22:35 I'm saying it glibly because this is an interview, but what I just said to you, I can give you research studies to back that up. Okay, I'm not just saying it. So No, I don't think Sleep training. But on the other hand, I can remember I adopted my son

1:22:51 He was a premature And he came home, he was the tiniest little thing. He scared the hell out of me. He was so tiny. And He had something wrong with his digestive system.

1:23:03 And for the first eighteen of his life he would wake up every Two hours at least, but maybe sometimes ninety minutes. And The only thing that would help is that one of us would go in And sing to him and talk to him and rock him.

1:23:19 For Ten, fifteen minutes. And put him down. And We got into the habit of that and we did that and we accommodated to that.

1:23:29 We thought about having him sleep between us. But we usually slept at that point. We adopted him very soon after we got together, which we were incredibly lucky. So we adopted him about a year after we got together. And so we slept pretty entwined. So we didn't really think it was and also he was so tiny at first, I didn't think

1:23:49 putting them in the middle, I felt I'm probably gonna crush him if I turn it. So my husband's a big man oh we're gonna crush him, this little one. So We didn't do that. And then it changed and it was fine. My daughter was totally different. Very shortly after she was born.

1:24:06 She went to sleep, you know, regularly, went to sleep at same time at night, slept through after a few months. And providing you gave her all kinds of hugs in the morning. She was this happy little Clam.

1:24:19 So It was different. So I understand that parenting Can be hard. I think for me

1:24:27 It's the hardest thing I've ever done. For one thing, parenting's a moving target. You accommodate to your child, then your child changes. Wait a minute, like I just figured it out. And now you're changing. You've become good lord, you've become an adolescent. I don't know what to do with this. You know, my son turned in from this wonderful, bubbly, charming, delightful little being into this Struppy.

1:24:53 Judgmental. moral person who was pointing out how wrong we were about everything I thought, you know, who is this person? Where did this guy come from? So parenting's hard. And

1:25:05 If you take the social implications of attachment science We should be uh supporting our parents. Like crazy. We should be Teaching people how to have good secure relationships.

1:25:16 We should be teaching them about relationships, educating them We should be having more leave for parents. We should be supporting the basic unit of our society, which is our family. We don't seem to be that keen on that. We seem to be more

1:25:32 Keen on supporting economic security or corporations So I don't think we support Parents enough. And

1:25:41 Maybe That needs to change. Maybe our understanding of supporting human families. Needs to change. I mean attachment has changed parenting.

1:25:52 It's changed the way we see our children. It's changed the way we see their emotional needs. We understand that to be emotionally alone traumatizes a child. We need to apply that to adults. Because in that sense we never grow up.

1:26:07 Attachment goes from the cradle to the grave. Just very basic things. Like I talk in One of my books somewhere about the I think it blob sense. There's a movement called Nobody Dies Alone. Where people

1:26:20 Get together in certain cities. And their commitment is To go in. With somebody who's Dying.

1:26:28 And who has no human figure to be there with them. And simply be with them. But their most vulnerable moments. I'll

1:26:37 For me That speaks to The fact that maybe one day we could have something called a civilised society. Civilized society. Would not let anyone

1:26:47 Die alone a civilized society. would support families. And support parents. Help us learn how to parent. So I don't think it's just the

1:26:56 Couple. Who are stressed. I think it's the demands of our society. you have to go back to work at a certain point, whether you're a parent or not. There's no accommodation in most workplaces.

1:27:08 For uh parenting. What's it talking? Prime Minister of New Zealand who brought her baby into the parliament? I thought, Yay, lady Woo! That it's like Yay.

1:27:21 You know, she bought her baby into the pond. That takes Got, I think. So Good for her, but Boy.

1:27:30 I can't even imagine that happening and I'm I obviously you can hear I'm English. I was gonna say I've heard Strappe from my friend from New Zealand, but you don't seem to have a Kiwi accent, nor do you seem to have an Ottawa or Canadian accent. No, I'm from England. I came to Canada when I was twenty two. But you never kind of lose that accent. But I cannot imagine even today a woman prime minister walking into the British Parliament with a baby. And you know, holding that I I would love that. I think that would be I that would be progress for Britain for me. Anyway, but never mind. Yeah.

1:28:01 Sorry. I got off track there. That was our best. Oh, when when necessary. I would like to ask a very specific question and it may be a dead end. I don't know, but I was doing a bit of reading On EFT. And There was a phrase that stuck out to me. Which related to micro interventions. So the the wording of this So the wording of this is microinterventions from Rogerian models of therapy, such as asking evocative questions. Yes. Now I like evocative questions, so this drew my attention.

1:28:37 What would be an example and what are micro interventions from Regerian models of therapy? Okay such as evocative questions. Exactly. Invocative questions. Focus on the process of how you're experiencing. Not the content.

1:28:52 So I would say to you Tim, what happens to you? When you sit and do interviews. With crazy people like Dr. Sue Johnson. And she She tells you stories that have you move into your own softer feelings. What is that like for you, Tim?

1:29:09 And you might say. Oh I don't know. You say, Well what happens in your body, Tim? Can you tell me? A moment when you felt that

1:29:16 Rush of emotion, you say, Oh well it was when you said this. Oh. So that's the trigger. And I'll help you put your emotions together with evocative questions and reflections. Well I'll say so.

1:29:29 When you heard me say this. That was important for you that stood out and you started to feel a lot of feelings Can you help me what happened in your body? So well, I felt this tightness across my chest. And I felt like I wanted to cry. So mm.

1:29:44 And then what did you say to yourself? I said To myself. My goodness. That's just how I felt when I remember feeling that way when I was three years old.

1:29:54 And I say understand. So I'll reflect it again. I'll hold it for you. I'll specify it. I'll ask evocative questions, I'll get you to stay with the experience. Then I'll say.

1:30:06 What do you Do when you feel that way. And you might say. I want to stop it. I want to get out. I don't want to feel any more of that right now. I want to shut it down.

1:30:16 I want to stop the feeling. Say okay, so you want to run. Yeah. And we've put your emotion together. In a safe, specific safe way. People can do

1:30:28 With emotions that When they make sense. when they're acceptable to when there's another human being there accepting them and when they're made specific. We can't deal with big, vague, huge, overwhelming problems. We just want to run away from them.

1:30:44 So I'll use evocative questions. I'll use reflections. Are we repetition? To help you stay with that feeling.

1:30:53 I'll use an image. You know, if you said to me There's fire across I can remember one client. Said It's like walking into a fire.

1:31:03 When you ask me to turn And open up to him. I can tell you. I'm afraid. I can look into your face and tell you. Because you're just a silly therapist. You don't matter to me much.

1:31:14 Actually that's what I said. I said that'cause'cause I'm just a silly therapist and I don't matter too much. And she said, Yes, that's right. So I said, So and I can tell I can tell you about my fear. When you ask me. To turn And tell him about my fear.

1:31:30 You're asking me to walk into a fire. And I knew that this lady She was a trucker. There was an accident in front of her truck. And she got out of her truck.

1:31:42 And she walked into flames. to pull out the trucker who was trapped underneath. The truck in front of her. I realize that This is an enormously powerful image.

1:31:54 And If I want her to move more into it, if she can handle it, if she can't handle it, I'll stop. But if I want her to move more into it and I think she can handle it, I'll say Let's stay with that image. It's like fire, fire burns, fire is terrifying.

1:32:10 You're telling your partner It's too hard for me. I can't I can't do this right now. It's too hard. It's like walking through file. to turn and open up to you. I just can't do it.

1:32:23 And she says, Yes, that's right. I say, Good, tell him that. Now create I'll Clarify the emotional music. Help with it, help her accept it.

1:32:35 Uh and you know, and then I'll I'll help her. move this into a into into a drama. um with another person. And by the way, when we do individual therapy We've just started to really teach EFIT, which is emotionally focused individual therapy.

1:32:51 There's a book coming out next month. Up September. Oh that When we do individual therapy, we still do this. But we use the representations inside people's heads.

1:33:02 So you have a cast of characters inside your head, so do I. I'm very thankful. Uh, my main attachment figure when I was a child was my father. And I'm very aware that all through my adult life, especially through Moments of failure.

1:33:18 Moments of joy. Key moments. I can hear my father's voice. My father's still a reality for me, right? He's I carry him inside of me and that's what we do with our loved ones.

1:33:30 And we talk to them and we have these dramas with them. So if I'm doing individual therapy I might use these same reflections and evocative questions. Instead I'll say You plan Every interaction with your mother.

1:33:45 You planned it for hours. You planned how to go. And ask her for a hug, you planned, right? Right. So can you see that little girl?

1:33:55 Who always got Smacked and taken back to her room and left in the dark? Can you see that little girl on the bed by herself? What would you want to say to her? What would you like to have been able to say to your mum?

1:34:09 And she says something like I tried so hard, Mom, I tried so hard, but I could never reach you. Was it really my fault? Was I really such a bad little girl? I just think you weren't the mom. You weren't a mum to me.

1:34:24 Say good. What does it feel to say that? She says that feels different. I've never. Said that before.

1:34:32 To myself. I've always said I didn't plan enough. I wasn't a good enough little girl. Uh huh. So can you say that again?

1:34:39 Can you see your mom? What does your mum look like in the chair? Close your eyes. She closes her eyes. She's Yes, I see her. Say, Oh, what do you see on her face? She says she tells me she's tired. She doesn't have time. Yeah, she's tired.

1:34:51 And she's working three jobs. And you know, I should just be quiet and go to bed and stop my griddling. Stop my That's what she's telling me. And what do you want to say to her? I want to tell her. Mom?

1:35:02 That's not fair. That's not fair, I'm just little. And I can never Reach for you. I can never reach for you. You're not a mum.

1:35:11 You're not a good mum to me. I need a mum. And I say, How do you feel about that? she says I feel fine. That feels good, that feels different. Then she emails me after the session and says

1:35:23 You know, Sue. The sessions with you were hard. So I don't understand why I sing all the way home. And it's because she moves.

1:35:36 In the session. She moves out of her Obsessions, addictions with not eating. addictions for planning. Anxiety she moves. And so She gets exhilarated because she starts to feel

1:35:50 More whole as a human being. Some of the cliches we have about love are really awful. Misinformation. Yeah. One of the cliches is really true.

1:36:00 And that this is true in most religions. Is that When we're loved, we grow and expand. We grow We find more resources inside ourselves, we find more strength inside ourselves.

1:36:13 We're better at problem solving. When we're safe and secure and we feel we matter to others and that they have our back. our potential and our resources Come out. Now again I'm

1:36:26 Having such fun talking to you. I'm not sure I answered your question. Oh yes, it was about microinterventions and things like reflecting And evocative questions. You gave you gave a number of examples. Yes. And I I I like to Think of it as as much conversation as as interviews. So even if the interview is just a cue to take us in a different direction, that works for me. I want to come back to some of your evocative questions, though, because

1:36:54 I wrote them down because they I think will be helpful for me. And They were follow ups to the question of What someone is feeling. So when I said that

1:37:07 The hypothetical was asking me how I felt. when you said certain things in the interview. That was the example, which uh could be a real one. And Then I would answer that. And then you had follow ups such as what did you say to yourself when you felt that or what did you want to do. Yeah. When you felt that way.

1:37:26 But I I wanna go to the Initial question which is how did you feel or what did you feel in your body? And I have a little bit of experience as a client with something called the Hakomi method. Yes. The qu the the question of how you feel and what you're feeling in your body comes up a lot. And I feel for reasons known and unknown that I have a very poor

1:37:50 Which is surprising to me. Very poor vocabulary. when it comes to identify bodily sensations. And I'm not aware of much. Outside of for instance. Almost every time I would be asked.

1:38:05 What I was feeling in my body, whether it was sadness, anger You name it. It would be tightness in the throat or tightness in the chest. And that was really All that would come up for me. Yes.

1:38:20 And I'm curious what you do when you have a Client. Who Really? can't come up with more than one or two answers.

1:38:33 to that question. What do you feel in your body. Maybe that's not a problem, but I I felt kinda ridiculous because When I've done some couple's work with My girlfriend, who's extremely kinesthetically aware and very self aware, she always has this rich landscape she can describe and She closes her eyes and she's so specific and I'm like, you know what? It's just the throat again, tightness in the throat, and I feel kinda ridiculous and I I don't feel like it gives me much to work with, but how would you

1:39:02 respond to that word style that I just threw at you. Well You have to put it in context. I mean the point is When I go in To something like that.

1:39:12 There's always a specific thing that's happened. A client's told me a story. Or as feeling something in the moment, or as having a specific emotional reaction, or If I'm working with couples. Like. piece of drama going on.

1:39:26 So there's usually a specific trigger. And the thing about attachment science is it gives us a map. to our emotional Нідс, вulnerabilтіс, філінс. It gives us a map.

1:39:39 And Well I think it's a relatively simple Elegant map So If you say to me

1:39:46 I hear you that you have a a more limited vocabulary, but There's a good reason for that. You were Brought up as a man. In a North American society. You weren't taught to look inside and

1:39:59 Pay attention to your emotions and develop a vocabulary. Your girlfriend was Taught. To do that. It was acceptable for her. And so women have More language.

1:40:10 The bottom line is, though You are human beings, so you have the same Basic emotions. We talk about six basic emotions. And you have the same basic physiological responses. So if you said to me Sue, I don't know how to talk about this.

1:40:25 That's great, right? That's too I don't know how to talk about this. All that happens to me is When and then it's specific. When I hear that tone in her voice. So what's the trick at when I hear that tone in her voice

1:40:39 All I know is So I just go tight. I just go tight. And I just Stay there with you and I say.

1:40:48 Mm. So help me, what do you hear in her tone? What? She's irritated with me and you know She's gonna be irritated with me and

1:40:59 Nothing I say is gonna make any difference, but I said Mm-hmm So in your in you hear her tone and you say I've already blown it. Up blown it. I've blown it again.

1:41:12 And when you is that right? He says yes, that's what I say to myself. I've blown it, she's irritated me with Oh my God! You now we're gonna get stuck in that thing, I've blown it again, except uh huh. And you feel this tightness. You help me with the tightness, it's like you shut down.

1:41:30 'Cause this is de is it shutting down? You say yeah, it's sh it's like shutting down soon. So I said uh huh. It's like shutting down'cause there's something here that's dangerous, isn't it? Then if you're a regular guy You say something like

1:41:44 No, it's not dangerous. I mean, you know, I'm not like really worried or anything. Yes you are. Okay. You're just bigger, right? The guy. Right. So I say Oh Alright.

1:41:58 It's not dangerous, it's just a bit This gentleman said to I loved him. He said. It's disconcerting. Oh

1:42:06 I said. Oh, it's disconcerting. It's very disconcerting. I understand. So I say, so let's go over this again. So then I come over it again when you do. This happens. You hear this in her voice. And then your body does.

1:42:21 And it's disconcerting. There's something here. Disconcerting. Could you help me? It's like You don't know what to do and no matter what you do, it's not gonna be right. He says, Yes.

1:42:33 Yeah. Hmm. When I feel that way, it's a little bit alarming, isn't it? He says, Yes, it's alarming. Oh, so when you feel this tightness in your chest, it's a lump. You lead people in. The point is

1:42:46 You lead them into their emotions. The point is I know where I'm going. And so does every good EFT therapist. I know where I'm going'cause I've got a map. And so Attachment gives us a map to how we dance together with the people we love. where those dances go in terms of outcome, it gives us a match our own vulnerabilities.

1:43:05 And emotions. It tells us how supremely sensitive we are. Two Signals of Rejection or abandonment.

1:43:15 By other people. And uh This sensitivity is wired in. There's nothing Weak or Strange or

1:43:25 We've framed these vulnerabilities in Very strange ways. Very unaccepting ways. Some of the ways we've talked about love have been So misleading.

1:43:38 When you help people have the words And there aren't that many words. There aren't that many. Core emotions, there aren't that many

1:43:47 Ways to dance with a loved one. You can basically reach from them when you're vulnerable. You can shut down a numb out and shut them out. Or you can up the ante. and get anxious and demand all kinds of responses from them. That's about it.

1:44:03 They're the main moves in the dance of love. And they can all be useful at times. But if you get stuck in one of the negative ones, like blaming and pushing and demanding And uping the ante to try and get the other person to respond. Or shutting down and withdrawing.

1:44:19 that generates a dance Yeah. ends up in disconnection and more anxiety. And more problems for both of you. What would be an example of upping the ante? I understand the f the phrasing as it uh applies to poker, but could you give us an example of that?

1:44:35 Oh I think the anti is what? I did with my description of my husband and me Where instead of turning and saying. I'm missing our conversations. I say, I guess you you're tired again.

1:44:47 Oh, you're you're tired an awful lot these days. I guess you're really tired. Yeah. So listen to me. You know, I'm pushing And foolishly what I want is for him to turn and say Oh well

1:44:59 Have I left you alone? I'm so sorry. Yes, I do want these conversations, but of course I'm using a club. So I'm smacking him to get him to respond. And the trouble with that one is The smacking. pushes him further away and

1:45:13 That's one of the ironic things as human beings. That sometimes when we love people We're so unable to really reach for them or know how to reach for them. The way we do try to reach, we push them further away. How do you work with

1:45:28 Or help someone work with Anger. So you have a couple. and you're working with them, one partner says whatever they say. And then the other and then you ask the the other partner how that makes them feel when they hear that and they're like, it pisses me off.

1:45:45 I've heard this a hundred times. God damn it. When are we gonna this should be open and shut case or whatever it is. It could take a million forms. Well most people start there. So I say so could you help me When your partner says this, that's hard for you to hear. That doesn't really make sense to you and you just say here we go again. And you get angry.

1:46:03 I say, Mm-hmm. And then I'll stay with that. Because underneath the anger, before the anger, there's some sort of threat. There's some sort of A threat going on, right? It pisses me off because That's NOT WHAT I DO

1:46:17 Right. That's just the way she sees it. I don't do that. No, she tells me don't Okay, so it pisses you off because From your point of view.

1:46:26 You're trying really, really hard to be a good husband. Yes. And from your point of view. She somehow Picks on this one thing. And it kind of proves that you're not a good husband. Yes.

1:46:39 That makes you really, really angry. It does. And that must be very, very difficult to hear. Yes. It's his. For sure. What happens to you when you hear that?

1:46:53 I don't want to hear that I'm a failure all the time, okay? Oh yeah. So in the moment before the anger What you hear is You hear your wife saying

1:47:05 You're failing. Your bad partner. Do you want to say that? Um well um Yes.

1:47:14 teach that emotions have to be controlled and contained. And got past. We don't do that. We all are emotions. We take people into them, listen to them.

1:47:26 Help them hear the key messages about survival and what they need that are in them. And then take them through them. And if you look at a couple at the end of EFT They're much more emotionally balanced. And when they feel vulnerable or hurt.

1:47:42 They're better at dealing with it. Securely attached kids in all the research studies, there's there's thousands of studies on Infant mother attachment, child parent attachment. There's hundreds and hundreds of studies on adult attachment now.

1:47:56 When you look at them all They all Taste say. We need this connection with other people. We need it. And

1:48:05 We have these incredible sensitivities. And there's only so many ways of dealing with them. And there's only so many Emotions that come up. The main one that people are dealing with when they get stuck in fights or incredible distance.

1:48:19 It's fair. Fear of rejection, fear of abandonment, fear of disconnection. Fear that I don't really matter to you. I'm really on my own in life.

1:48:31 And that intimidates us all. We all know. That that is Disempowering for us. We all know on some deep visceral level

1:48:43 How much we need others. And strongest among us. Can accept that. and learn how to connect. You know, one of my most fascinating characters in history is Winston Churchill. I find him completely fascinating. I've read all these books on Winston Churchill.

1:49:02 Winston Churchill had the most horrible Childhood relationships. He hadn't mean and blaming and Rejecting and

1:49:12 Distant and he had a totally distant mother who was Too busy. having affairs with the king and having wonderful Parties. You know, they sent him to boarding school and he would write these letters that just break your heart like

1:49:26 Dear mummy Which could you possibly possibly make it to the one This big event once a term. And come and she wouldn't even reply to his letter. Uh.

1:49:38 So Winston Churchill grew up deprived. But I don't know how he managed it. Sometimes human resilience is amazing. But what he did as an adult was he created a bond with his wife. And All the evidence is all through his life he relied on that bond.

1:49:56 And that when they got into a fight. This man this powerful man. You know, who sort of took all these impossible stands in his life. I mean

1:50:08 And what he would do apparently is if they got into fights He'd go and he'd sit down outside her bedroom door and say things like Are you mad at your winny? So he he knew how to somehow he knew he found a way to reach for her.

1:50:24 And she responded enough that he had this Secure connection. British upper class, so they still slept in separate bedrooms, which is just Kind of weird. But any from me from my point of view.

1:50:36 But they did that. Now my class consciousness is is coming out here, so Do you have any favorites? Books. Or if you were to recommend it.

1:50:46 a resource or a book or a place to start for people interested in learning more about. Winston Churchill. Do you have any suggestions? There's a wonderful bo I think it's called The Last Lion. It's a biography in three volumes of Winston Churchill, but it takes it from childhood until him him dying. And It's fascinating, fascinating. I love it.

1:51:06 In terms of books, I just read What happened to you? With Oprah Winfrey and Bruce Perry. Uh Bruce Perry, both of them are splendid.

1:51:17 I love Bruce Perry. He's a child and adolescent psychiatrist, so he comes at attachment science in a slightly different way than me. His work Dovetails with Us. Totally brilliantly. And he says all the same things about how

1:51:32 Emotional isolation is traumatizing. And how sensitive we are and How to grow human beings. He says all the same things. That's one recent one that I just read.

1:51:43 You know, it's funny. I just came home And literally that book is sitting on one of the dressers. So I think my girlfriend just bought that book. So it's it seems like she and I are having Complimentary explorations at the moment. Which is great. And the book that you named, you actually got it right, The Last Lion. By William Manchester.

1:52:09 The last lion box set. It is a three volume set and has Average of five stars out of five on Amazon. Two hundred and sixty reviews. So

1:52:22 What I love about it I think I love Winston Churchill because From my point of view He was a successful human being. In that he He was always honest to himself, he was always

1:52:36 Winston, he was always He took huge risks. Even though Some of those risks made him massively unpopular There were periods of time when he was hated in the House of Commons

1:52:46 You know, um his peers Despised him, criticized him. He was creative, he was always honest. He was always who he was. I love that he used to go up in the blitz. Everyone else used to go into the the shelters. He used to go up on the roof. And and watch the blitz as it was happening, okay. In the first world war

1:53:07 All his upper class Colleagues. If they were in the battle at all, they were way behind the lines in a nice hotel somewhere. Winston gave up being a Member of Parliament and asked to go into the trenches. He said he wants to see them.

1:53:23 He wanted to see what they were like. He wanted to be there in the trenches. And mind you, he took his butler with him, which most of the men in the trenches didn't have a butler. But um nevertheless. I would love to hear the conversation with the butler on that decision. Yes. So um probably the butler didn't want to go into the trenches, but he was a risk taker. He had huge integrity. He was passionate. He stayed with that passion. Even though

1:53:51 There were long periods of time he was completely rejected socially. He was true to himself and he was passionate. And I think he was one of the few human beings who could have led England Through the second world war and made it.

1:54:06 I don't know who else. Could have come forward to do that. So I th I find him fascinating. I find figures like him. That have courage and

1:54:15 Stand for something. And even when the prevailing winds are going the other way. Um, I always find that Fascinating. Do you still dance tango? Is that something that you still pursue? I still dance tango and covet has been

1:54:32 So awful. And of course the parallel with couple relationships is Obvious. You know, I'm when I first started to learn Tango. My tango teacher would be teaching me and I suddenly say things like, Stop, I gotta write that down.

1:54:47 Because it would be relevant for therapy. I mean Tango is about attunement. And so is love. Tango is about standing up Moving with somebody, changing weight with somebody

1:54:59 tuning into somebody and there's a safety check there. There's a can I find you? Are you gonna respond to me? Are you there? Can I feel you?

1:55:11 And then if the answer is yeah, if sometimes you go through the motions, the answer is no. And you go through the motions, you do the steps. But if it's a good Dance. You find the other person and it's like, oh there you are. There you are.

1:55:26 Oh. I can feel that. Mm. And we tune into the music at the same time and we start to play. And there's a synchrony there.

1:55:36 That is Happens in hold me tight conversations, happens in good sex. Patterns in It's play and synchrony. And it's two human beings.

1:55:46 impacting each other, responding to each other, sending cues Tuning into the Qs. There's something in intoxicating about it. So

1:55:56 When I realised the parallel of I was not good at it, I wanna tell you. My teacher who was not big on empathy Said something like, Um, Why do why do you want to teach Tango You're uncoordinated, you don't have any balance. You're not twenty two. I said thanks very much. You know, I'm in my

1:56:15 Late fifties actually. So thanks very much for that comment. At the time I learned Tango, right, said your You know, this is gonna be very difficult for you. And I said, Well then shut up and start teaching me. I'll just work harder at it than everyone else, that's all. He said, Why do you want to do it?

1:56:31 I said because there's something here, these I get these little tiny moments Where we're both moving together to this beautiful music that are just Joyful. He just looked at me. The Sage. All right then.

1:56:46 But you're gonna have to work really hard. There's so many parallels. I can remember one lesson when I said to him I got angry and I said You're not sending me any cues. And just for people listening, this happens all the time. These arguments between tango couples. They get into these bickering fights all the time. So please continue. So this is this so this is my teacher, right? And he says He's trying to teach me this new move, and I say

1:57:13 You're not saying anything. You're not sending me any cues. He says The cues I am sending you are enormous. But

1:57:22 What you do about. You're not sending me cues. You're be like you'd be just being ridiculous. So Bless his heart. He does what we do in EFT. He says Feel it.

1:57:32 He moves his Shoulders. Slightly to the right. About a millimeter. Can you feel what? See no.

1:57:39 Just do it again, feel it. Can you feel? No. He does it twenty times.

1:57:46 Oh And sometimes what that's what you have to do in couple relationships you have to slow everything down and give people time to listen to a new thing they're not used to hearing. Or can't take in, you have to slow it down. Yeah. Do all this stuff fast. So then I go

1:58:05 Oh, I got it. And then he says, Right. Then he says, now follow it. And I turn. This happened.

1:58:14 All the time the parallels in relationships and They were the same, so I'd go to tango lessons and get completely Enthralled. Intellectually, emotionally, physically I adore tango.

1:58:28 But I have to say Probably shouldn't say this on air. Um I find mostly I find it's easier to dance with women. And there are many women leaders. And I can't figure out w why that is, but I think it's

1:58:45 Because women I've had to learn to tune into other people in order to survive socially. Over the years. They've had to do that. So maybe it's a little easier for them. But

1:58:58 I find With women leaders often Or maybe I just feel a little safer with women leaders. Maybe that's what it is. I don't know. But Often I find it easier to dance with women. Although I've had some amazing

1:59:12 male partners too. One of the big arguments in my marriage was that We started dancing tango and then my husband said he wasn't gonna do it. He didn't like it. So I won't tell you what Sue Johnson Yeah. Said to that. It was not it was not a positive evening.

1:59:30 Ha ha That was like You can't do that to me, you know. I I mean the partner. And he basically said, It hurts my back. I'm not gonna do it. And so that was very difficult, but we got through it. He goes hot king.

1:59:46 And I don't particularly like it when he goes up hiking up mountains all by himself. It scares me. And from quite a while he didn't particularly like it when I Would go off to the Malonga. You know, and as he put it. Insist on dancing very, very close to other men for hours. I'm dancing tango.

2:00:15 Does not dance. He does not dance, but his wife loves ballroom dance and dances a variety of different styles and I remember one Saturday, might have been a Friday, though it was a it was a Saturday, he said Here's my wife's evening. And he sent a photograph that she'd sent him. She's in this Really sleek, super sexy.

2:00:35 Dress. All done up, looking gorgeous, dancing with this Latin guy, they're face to face, you know, sweating all over each other. And then he said, Here's my evening, and he sent a photograph and it was a table with arts and crafts with like a half a dozen kids going totally batshit crazy. And uh he uh he painted quite a a picture for himself. And uh I just wanna back step into What you were saying about tango, it's making me really want to dance again. I haven't danced in a very, very long time, but for people who don't know So a few things on the gender split.

2:01:09 In Argentina a lot of the tango began in the port town of Buenos Aires. with men dancing with other men. It was actually very common. Right. Very, very common. And even now you can find and I trained because oftentimes in the classes when I was there We wouldn't have enough women. Or you wouldn't have enough men. So women would dance with women, men would dance with men.

2:01:30 And There are two brothers. Ah, I can't recall their names. Somebody listened to me. Yes. Who they're incredible. Do you know the name? Do you remember the name? No, they're they're amazing. So incredible. Yeah. Yeah, if somebody goes to YouTube and just searches, you know, Argentine dancing Tango Brothers or something like that. You'll see the two of them dancing and it's a very

2:01:53 Aggressive masculine Almost violent type of Tango. It's incredible to watch. And you're bringing back so many memories for me. I remember being at different Milongas like Nin Yo Bien or Sundarland, s Sunderland, and all these different melongas and

2:02:10 What struck me so much when I went to some of my first Melongas, which for people wondering start really late and end really late in Argentina. They often don't even really get going until midnight. Could be a Tuesday, it doesn't matter. And I went in and I noticed that many of the best female dancers danced with their eyes closed. Oh yeah. And the complexity of the movements were one thing and you watch and you just you just can't understand how it's possible for someone to dance so deftly

2:02:39 With such subtlety, so quickly with their eyes closed. But on top of that As a beginner, you walk in and you think to yourself, These two must have been practicing for months and months and months and years together. And then you find out it might be the first night they ever met. It's all Cues and improv. It's just mind blowing. It's mind blow so impressive. And it's the synchrony.

2:03:03 That kind of physical and emotional synchrony moving with the music That synchrony In this is joy in human beings. It's the reason why birds Have mating rituals.

2:03:16 Swans move their necks in unison, they do this ritual. They move into synchrony. You know, it happens with mothers and children They move into synchrony, the little child opens his eyes and Mother.

2:03:29 leans forward and opens her eyes wider. A synchrony in tango, synchrony in love making between lovers, synchrony in hold me tight conversations. This is our nervous system buzzing. And say Yeah.

2:03:44 This is belonging. This is safety, this is joy and our nervous system. And it's So rewarding. I tried to explain to my husband why I needed to keep tangering at one point. And I said

2:04:00 When I dance with and I was used a woman as an example, you know, when I dance with with Mary Ellen in twelve minutes of dancing I'll have You're four straight moments of this Incredible synchrony. When

2:04:15 My brain is out sitting in a chair. Looking and saying How are you doing this? I don't understand how you doing this. You don't know any of these moves and what happened there, I don't I don't understand how this is going because your prefrontal cortex isn't subtle enough. You're it's like you're picking up on attunement and moving with someone And this is what human beings

2:04:36 Can do, we can read these cues incredibly fast. We have these mirror neurons in our brains. That pickup. the cues from somebody and feel them in our own body. And this is the basis of empathy.

2:04:51 And it's a beautiful thing. And so yeah, when I first went to a To Malonga. I stood there and said How? Do they

2:05:01 Do this. This is the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. And it's impossible. I don't understand. I wanna do it. I won't do it. But it takes a long time.

2:05:13 And In a way. It's kind of the same discovery. our couples go through where Yeah, somebody will say to me

2:05:22 I never felt this before. I never knew you could feel this w I never I never knew. People could have these kinds of conversations. I never knew. That I could

2:05:32 Talk about my feelings like this. I never knew That s I would talk about my feelings. And I would look up and see in the other person's face That they wanted me and that they wanted this and you know, uh um someone will say You don't have to

2:05:48 keep problem solving or taking care of everything. You don't have to keep solving all the problems. What I want is you. If you tell me you're overwhelmed by this problem That's what I want. I want the connection with you. And the other person goes I've had people say

2:06:05 What did you say? Yeah. Then they look at me with this blank look and I say You can't take that in.

2:06:16 You've never imagined a drama with another human being. Where somebody might say that to you and they go No. And then they weep. Because in the end

2:06:29 What none of us can bear. Is the feeling that we're alone. And that we don't matter to another human being. That's You know, and our world

2:06:39 Doesn't talk much about that. You know, it when I first heard that you wanted to talk to me, I thought Why does he want to talk to me? He's into business and he's into teaching people Oh to make money and he's into

2:06:51 And then somebody said, No, no. He's into Success. And what helps people feel successful? And I thought

2:06:59 Well that's okay because From my point of view, success is about Being really alive and being really alive is about being connected with others. And knowing that they are our greatest resource and that That's where we are most alive, whether we're dancing tango, making love, responding to our child.

2:07:18 It's such fun to talk to you. You're fun. I never know what questions you're gonna sometimes you ask quite intricate questions. That's really fun. You're fun too. You're fun too. And I I only have a few more questions because I know we're getting Not necessarily two time, but we're definitely Covering a lot of ground. You've mentioned sex a number of times, good sex, and this is important to many, if not all, couples. And I'd love to

2:07:43 Hose a situation and hear how you might approach it. And that is Couple who love each other dearly. They actually do not seem to be shutting down, at least obviously. They've been together a long time, and maybe the

2:08:02 passion, the fire has simply died down somewhere. They're more I don't wanna say roommates because that has a pejorative sound to it. But they're good parents. They love each other. They baby still go on dates and so on. But For whatever reason that

2:08:18 Sexual spark. Is not as strong as it used to be. How would you approach That situation. That couple.

2:08:27 What's always interesting to me about Sexuality and Sexual conversations is that Uh world arguably

2:08:36 I mean sex is everywhere now compared to Even say I don't twenty, thirty years ago, theoretically we're more open and We're more accepting about sex, we're not so restrained and all that. So what's fascinating to me is it seems to me

2:08:50 People Couples have an incredibly hard time. having a conversation about their sex lives. And that's still true.

2:09:00 And it was true thirty years ago. And it's still true now. And I think it's because In sex people are literally Naked.

2:09:09 They are vulnerable. And they don't know how. to even begin that conversation. So what we do is we create safety in the relationship, we have them look at the relationship. And we walk into that conversation. One of the big conversations about that one is

2:09:26 There's a lot of evidence now. I think it's really good research. about the difference between male and female sexuality. And there's a lot of evidence that Women

2:09:38 respond differently to physiological to sexual cues. A woman can be physiologically aroused, for example. by a sexual cue. If you look at her in an M R I study, I think this was by a man called Gilath. Basel Canadian researcher also talks about this. There's quite a few people I think Chisholm talks about it.

2:09:58 So The evidence is a woman can be physiologically turned on. If you ask her if she's turned on, she'll tell you no. Whereas With a man physiological arousal

2:10:09 and experience just goes together like that. They have an erection, they say I'm aroused. The woman. There's something else that seems to happen. What seems to happen

2:10:19 is that the woman's physiologically aroused and then her prefrontal cortex Choose in. And her prefrontal cortex The theory now is from these studies that That her prefrontal cortex basically checks out the safety of the relationship.

2:10:35 Which makes sense because women are I mean, let's face it, if you look at the sex act. Women are vulnerable. They're naked, they're gonna open their body They're gonna be penetrated.

2:10:48 By a stronger Animal. This is a basic thing. So it's almost like Women check out the relationship and the connection and the safety. Before they then feel

2:10:59 They actually let themselves feel aroused. And so women take longer. Often to be aroused. Somebody said to me, What's the best foreplay I can do with my wife? I said, Well Have you heard of it?

2:11:11 Talking here. I think what she's telling you is The best role play you can do with your wife is to talk to her. And share with her. And turn up. Well, basically I didn't say turn up emotionally, but you know, that's where I was going. You know, like

2:11:25 Show her who you are. You know, stand out on the dance floor. Open your arms, you know, it's like And so Women have a slower pace often. Women

2:11:34 have responsive desire. They don't start off from lust. They start off. From being open to their partner. What? Being curious, they don't start from the same place as men.

2:11:46 And People haven't known how to talk about that. And so men and women miss each other. And also men Men talk about how

2:11:55 The classic story is that men start talking about how they want sex. But time and time again when we're dealing with couple sexual relationships If you really go in and you really stay there. It's not just about orgasm.

2:12:11 Because let's get real. If it's just about orgasm, men can give themselves an orgasm very efficiently, and so can women. There's amazing vibrators out there. Okay. So That's not an issue. So it is not just about orgasm. Because if you listen to the man who says who's always badgering his wife for sex What it comes down to is

2:12:30 On an emotional level and he has a hard time getting there. He wants to feel wanted. He wants to feel desire. And in that men and women are the same. And when

2:12:45 That somehow a couple give each other the message I don't particularly desire you. One way of dealing with it if you have other good things in the relationship is to just shut that part of your relationship down and numb it out. But you can bring it alive.

2:13:01 But you have to be able to be ARE, you have to be able to take some emotional risks. You have to You love this kind of sex. Well, I wanna tell you that for twenty years I've hated it. I hate it!

2:13:15 One lady said. You think it's the sexiest thing in the world to come up behind me And bite my neck. I Hate it when you do that.

2:13:24 And he says. What are you talking about? And she just didn't feel safe enough to turn and say I hate that and here's why I hate it. People

2:13:34 Hang back. They shut down. But you know, passion is about Feeling safe enough to be completely absorbed in the experience and let it take you over. Passion is about full engagement.

2:13:47 And we talk about it like it's all about novelty. Not all about novelty. Novelty can turn passion on. But the research is clear. From people like Lauman. At the University of Chicago.

2:13:59 The people who have the best sex have it most often. And who feel most enthralled, find it most thrilling. A people in What you would call safe long term relationships.

2:14:10 Because then you can let go. You can passion is about erotic play. You can let go and play. And Lots of couples. have sort of put that part of their relationship off to the side.

2:14:22 They haven't known how to tune into each other. They haven't maybe accepted their own emotional needs. They haven't known how to talk about it. So we simply create safety and we open it up for them. And they start to Share and talk.

2:14:37 And find it again. They have to have acceptance. Somebody has to be able to say I was brought up a Catholic There's some part of me that can never quite accept.

2:14:48 My own sexuality. And some part of me just needs you to be dominant, demand it of me. And then I can get turned off. Well, she needs to be able to tell that to her partner. Because he's always comes on to her considerate. And low key. He doesn't want to offend her in any way. Well that it doesn't work, right? So

2:15:08 People have to be able to examine the way they dance together and share. Then they can Find each other. And it's the same with sexual problems in hold me tight. One of my favorite stories, I've got it in the book.

2:15:22 Of the man who has erectile dysfunction. And The trouble is not that he has erectile dysfunction. Trouble is He freaks out every time he has erectile dysfunction and shuts down and withdraws from his wife and then she gets upset and feels rejected and abandoned.

2:15:38 So the whole relationship starts to go to hell. Well they can Talk it. Connect with it. And I suggest that, you know. Sometimes I think we call his penis George, I can't remember now, but I say sometimes George goes for a nittle nap. And it's no big deal if they can stay connected with each other and she can help wake George up. You know, she knows how to do that.

2:15:58 They laugh and they play. Uh there's no problem after a while. Because they deal with it differently because they have this safe connection. But the trouble was the sexual problem was Interfering with their safe connection. And everyone was playing it safe and being nice to each other.

2:16:15 And keeping everything calm. The thing is What we've learned about attachment science can help us shape our emotional relationships. And our sexual relationships.

2:16:27 It gives us a map for how to do that. And It really Challenges the old cliche. The love and

2:16:36 Passionate love. Has a best before date. It really challenges that. Love has to be remade. And passion isn't the same over thirty years.

2:16:46 But it can still be made and remade. And there are times when people are more tuned into that than others, but Anyway, that's we could talk about sex forever. So that's it. These are some huge topics here, Tim. They they are. We may have to do a round two or something. There's a lot of stuff to talk about. Let me ask A follow up, which is sort of the

2:17:08 The opposite end of the spectrum with respect to one example you gave. So the one of the examples you began with was That of female physiological arousal often Proceeding psychological. Arousal.

2:17:24 And I'd be I'd be curious to know because This seems to be common, at least among Many men that I know and many men who right to me in some fashion.

2:17:36 That They're extremely attracted to their partner for a period of time and they see this in relationships One after the other. For six, nine months, whatever it is. And then it's not that they stop being attracted to their partner. They still can objectively and subjectively look at their partner and find them sexy and attractive, but they just do not have

2:17:58 As much sex drive as they would like. at a certain point in the relationship. Do you have any Not necessarily advice for them, but could be advice. But thoughts on how to approach that. So not a situation where the male is demanding or Hoping for more sex, although that

2:18:14 But in fact a situation where the woman has more sustained sex drive than the male. Well that's an interesting one. I don't know. I mean we condition men To think about physiologically their sexual need and their sexual response is very available to them compared to women.

2:18:33 And it seems to be immediate And we condition men to accept their sexuality and to accept sort of last and to expect a certain amount So I don't know, I think it depends. And I may have been prejudiced because

2:18:46 The cases that I've seen in that situation Have usually been that there's another whole element going on. Which is that There's a certain point in relationships where people realize That

2:19:00 They're vulnerable. And that this person holds their heart in their hand. And for some people Before that, the infatuation and the excitement and the novelty and the

2:19:16 All that stuff. Can carry them forward. And then there's a moment when it's kind of like the bonding scenario kicks in. And they realise they're vulnerable. This other person can hurt them and that they need this person. They need certain responses from this person.

2:19:33 And for some folks That is Exceedingly difficult. And They can't even really put their finger on what that's about.

2:19:43 And they start to shut down. And I can remember one one very dramatic case of this. Where this guy pursued this woman and adored her and everything was great. And then they got married.

2:19:57 And literally they got married. And She became immediately pregnant and was very ill with the pregnancy, so she was kind of she kind of withdrew. So from his point of view, he took the ultimate risk, which he said he was never going to do and got married. And the minute he did that

2:20:13 From his point of view This person became unavailable. He completely shut down his sexuality. Completely. He numbed it out.

2:20:22 Except in his mind. In his mind, she was still the most attractive woman in the world. He still, you know, had all kinds of active fantasies. Mean he still had lust. He just shut it all down. And that was all about the emotional reality of him. Suddenly coming up against this reality.

2:20:40 That he needed her. It risked. And suddenly She wasn't there. And of course.

2:20:47 That was a very familiar experience for him from his childhood. And Then she got angry. Course. Because he wouldn't. Yeah, he shut down?

2:20:56 And the whole relationship. Went bad. So These emotional scenarios can be complex, you have to ask what's going on.

2:21:06 I think there's also a point in couple's lives where Especially in our present world, where they get caught up in parenting, caught up in tasks. Caught up in What we've decided is success. Which is working longer and longer hours.

2:21:19 Being on your devices all the time? Literally. They don't pay any attention to the relationship and to the emotional music. And to the connection. And then they suddenly expect it to be their own bed.

2:21:32 Well It's not Because it all sort of goes together. So We don't find it that difficult to help people.

2:21:42 If they want. To go through those blocks. We don't find it that difficult to help people. deal with their sex life differently, with problems, or to reawaken that passion. In fact, what we find is when people start having hold me tight conversations We don't even talk about sex. Their sex they tell us their sex life improves.

2:22:01 'Cause they start to be able to play. and take risks with each other and tell each other things they've never been able to tell each other before. And accept their own sexual desires. In a new way and share them. So then this openness this

2:22:17 Emotional openness and responsiveness. turns into physiological Openness and responsiveness. Very hard to be open and physiologically responsive when you're afraid and guarding yourself all the time.

2:22:30 Yeah, those those two sounds. Almost entirely mutually exclusive. Well I would like to If you're if you're open to a few more minutes. Just to hear your description since people will want to explore this more of Hold Me Tight Online, the relationship enhancement program.

2:22:48 What brought you to develop that and what can people expect if they engage with that? Well want me to develop it with insanity because um It's the story of my life. Yes, it was insane amount of work, okay? And um I just

2:23:05 I got obsessed with the fact that we From my point of view, this science and all our work Had created this enormous possibility for people to have much better relationships, much s more secure families Better mental health and

2:23:20 And somehow people weren't getting the message. I just became So disconcerted by that. That I said, We've got to do a whole bit we've got to do an online programme. We've got this is the only way it's gonna reach people. So My

2:23:36 Colleagues bless their hearts. I seem to have this ability to go in and say insane ideas and then people pick them up and suddenly We're working for about four years on this huge project and So we created this the online program is It's got little talks, it's got three couples going through the process.

2:23:55 When you see the three couples working It's got little bits of music, little exercises. It's customized, we put a huge amount of work into it. I don't know of any other

2:24:07 program like it out there. Especially not Based on Tested interventions and a clear science of what love relationships are about.

2:24:17 We get very good feedback on it. I'm very encouraged by the fact that the military The US military, I believe, and the Canadian military are using it now, and the government of British Columbia, where I live, on the west coast of Canada has just bought a number of them.

2:24:35 I think they're going to give them to first responders. Whose relationships are having a hard time. The Ha institute is talking about creating an online program'cause they have an a live programme in their hospital now in Ottawa. So I'm very encouraged by the fact that

2:24:51 Institutions are picking it up. But it's supposed to take the hold me tight book. And turn it into a live, engaging, online program that you can do with your partner. And

2:25:03 There's some research on the educational program based on Hold Me Tight. There's no research yet on the online program. But we're still working on it. We want to for example

2:25:15 The three couples who agreed to be filmed through this We just took the first three couples that came. into the studio in Ottawa and did it with me. Did those conversations with me in a very snowy winter. So when I look at them now.

2:25:29 It looks middle dated those three couples. There's a young couple A couple that are facing all kinds of other difficulties and an older couple. They're still useful, you can still see. But we've added we've started to add conversations like we have a black couple

2:25:45 Right now. With a black facilitator Talking about That and talking about Issues with racism and how that impacts your relationship.

2:25:54 We're trying to put new conversations in. You can see a couple go through it. You can hear me talk about it. You can learn about it. You can hear the stories about it, you can do exercises.

2:26:07 mean it's really designed to lead you into being able to have your own hold me tight conversation. And I think Well, I'm a bit crazy about all this, but Yeah, we need books and we need online programs, we need to educate people about relationships.

2:26:23 It's insane. That we have all this science and understanding And that we are not sharing it and putting it out So that

2:26:34 We can have more positive, loving Cooperative relationships and more secure families. From my point of view, it's insane. So we created the program and we're gonna keep adding to it. And hopefully institutions will keep picking it up and

2:26:49 For a while we did it and Online wasn't popular and so it just sat there and I thought What do I have to do to get this stuff out there? But It has picked up quite a lot. People are hearing about it. I think this conversation will help, at least with a handful of people.

2:27:05 Yes. So that's the hope. And this has been so much fun. Doctor Sue Johnson, you are a blessed to talk to and I will of course Add

2:27:17 Show notes with links to everything and people can find you at Dr Sue Johnson D R S U E Johnson J O H N S O N Doctor Sue Johnson dot com. They can find the Hold Me Tight online program at holdme tightonline.com You're on all the social. I'll link to those in the show notes and people can find you on Twitter at Doctor DR. That's at DR underscore Sue Johnson. Is there anything else that you would like to

2:27:44 Say any closing comments, any requests of my audience, anything at all that you would like to Add before we close this First. Very enjoyable conversation for me, at least. I don't want to speak for you.

2:27:57 Mm-hmm. The only thing that occurs to me is To say on a personal level that One of the enormous realities of my Childhood

2:28:09 Was that I understood That my parents loved each other. And they fought continually. That was something that distressed me, puzzled me, alarmed me.

2:28:21 Freak me out. And I think Way back there somewhere, sitting on the stairs in the dark, listening to them fight. I somehow felt that There had to be a better way.

2:28:33 There had to be a better way, and I think The other thing was I adored my father and in the end The fact that marriage didn't work destroyed him, whereas Second World War didn't destroy him. All kinds of other things didn't destroy him, but

2:28:47 The fact that that marriage didn't work destroyed him. So I knew How important. relationships were and For me.

2:28:56 When I started to see couples And I started to see patterns. And then I started to link it to attachment science and I suddenly realised that There was a way. That we can understand love that

2:29:10 We can understand And shape our most precious relationships. That is just something that I just feel like We need so desperately It's so important on so many levels.

2:29:23 that I just want people to know. That you don't have to fall in and out of love and that Even if you've never seen This kind of bonding. You can find it, we can show it to you.

2:29:37 On a video we can Tell you a story about it. You can do it. It's wired into us. that there's incredible hope for relationships.

2:29:48 Because More and more people are living alone? More and more people are giving up on love relationships. Moral people uh Say things like Monogamy is impossible.

2:30:00 Doesn't work. This just brings up Despair in me because it's like we have this We have the way forward. And we're not using it.

2:30:12 So that's why I do things like make crazy online programs that take me four years and Anyway, it's been amazing fun to talk to you. Thank you. It's been a great time and I'm so glad that you were able and grateful.

2:30:29 That you're willing to carve out the time to have this conversation. I really think it's gonna help a lot of people. This has been incredibly helpful for me personally. I've taken a ton of notes. I have a lot of things to follow up on. I'm gonna have some very, very Think some very bonding and engaging conversations with my girlfriend. And uh this has inspired me to further seek out

2:30:54 The tools that help us to shape the love that we need and want instead of just waiting for some miracle to fall from the sky or a disaster to fall from the sky. And it's It's very enabling. to hear you speak and to get a better understanding of your work and certainly I can only imagine two

2:31:15 engage with the work that you've developed. So I'm I'm very grateful to you for the time and for the work that you're doing. I think these tools are Invaluable and Never more needed, certainly, than right now. I think that word despair that you mentioned is something that a lot of people have become intimate with in the last year, but that the last year has really just magnified, I think, an underlying despair that many people already felt. I agree. And I'm so glad that we were Able to take the time together.

2:31:45 So thank you very, very much. And perhaps if you have time in the future we'll do a round two, but we'll s we'll no need to rush that. But really, really tremendously enjoyed this conversation. So thank you again. You're welcome. Lovely to talk to. Lovely to talk to. And You ask wonderful questions, so I appreciate that. Thank you so much. Oh my my pleasure entirely. And for everybody listening. We'll have links to everything in the show notes, as usual, at Tim.blog forward slash podcast. And until next time.

2:32:15 Thank you for listening. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just one more thing before you take off, and that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bold Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out. every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered or have started exploring over that week. It's kinda like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading. albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmas, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests, and these strange esoteric things end up in my field, and then

2:33:05 I test them and then I share them with you. So if that sounds fun, again, it's very short, a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend, something to think about. If you'd like to try it out, just go to Tim.blog slash Friday. Type that into your browser, Tim.blog slash. Friday, drop in your email and you'll get the very next one. Thanks for listening. This episode is brought to you by AG1, the daily foundational nutritional supplement that supports whole body health. I view AG1 as comprehensive nutritional insurance and that is nothing new. I actually recommended AG1 in my 2010 bestseller more than a decade ago, the four hour body, and I did not get paid.

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2:36:00 go to drinkag1.com slash Tim. That's drinkag1, the number one. DrinkAG1.com slash Tim. Last time, drinkag1.com slash Tim. Check it out. Okay, this is gonna be part confessional, as some of you know. I am recently single and navigating the world of modern dating. What a joy that is. Sometimes it's fun, but it's mostly a goddamn m, as many of you probably know. I've tried all the dating apps and while there's some slick options out there, the most functional that I have found is the league. I've been using it for a few months now. And I found some great matches. I'm going to use this ad, the sponsored, to selfishly share my own profile with the ladies listening to this podcast. My handle is

2:36:48 Tim Tim. That's uh at Tim Tim or just Tim Tim, I think you can search. by person and just put in Tintin and you'll find me. And then you can match with me. I'll tell you more about what I'm looking for in a bit. But before that, why did I end up using the League? First, most dating apps give you almost no information. It's a huge time suck. On the league you're starting with a baseline of smart people. and you can then easily find the ones you're attracted to. It's much easier. It's like going to a conference where everyone is smart and then just looking for the people you think are cute to go up and speak with. So more than half of the league users went to top 40 colleges and you can make your filters really selective. So if that's important to you, then

2:37:32 go for it. It does work. And that is one of the reasons that I use it. Second, people verify using LinkedIn. So you can make sure they have a job and don't bounce around every six months it's a simple proxy for finding people who have their shit together. It's infinitely easier to try to figure things out on Instagram or whatever. Third, you can search by interest and in multiple locations. I haven't found any other dating app that allows you to do this. So for instance, I usually search for women who love skiing or snowboarding. Have those as interests as I like to spend say two to three months of the year in the mountains. I'm a rivers and mountains guy. The UI is a little clunky, I'll warn you, but it's incredibly helpful for finding good matches and not just pretty faces. So you can search by interest and specify multiple cities. So to summarize a few things that I think Make it stand out. Features available in the league include multi-city dating, LinkedIn verified profiles, ability to block your profile from co-workers, bosses, family, etc. That's very easy to do. You can search by interest.

2:38:31 You can get profile stats and there is a personal concierge in the app. So there's someone you can text with within the app as a personal concierge to get help. So what am I looking for? I am looking for a woman who is well educated and who loves skiing. Or snowboarding. Or both. These are, and I've used this word already, proxies for like 20 other things that are important. So just I'll leave it at that for now. Someone who's default upbeat. Likes to smile.

2:38:57 Smiles often, class half full type person who would ideally like to have kids in the next few years. Her friends would describe her as feminine and playful, and she would love polarity in a relationship. She's athletic and has some muscle. I like strong women. Not necessarily bodybuilders, but you get the idea. It could be a rock climber, dancer, whatever, but has some muscle, loves to read, and loves learning, if this sounds like you. S Dave Tim. So hashtag date Tim in a message to your concierge in the app to get us paired up. Again, you can also find my profile under the handle Tim Tim. That's all one word. T-I-M. T I am.

2:39:32 So these are all reasons why I was excited when The League reached out to sponsor the podcast, not the least of which is that I get to pitch my dating profile on the podcast. They even have daily speed data where you can go on three three minute dates with people who match your preferences all from the comfort of your couch. So check it out. Download the leak today on iOS or Android and find people who challenge you to swing for the fences and who are in it. win it. I found it to be super fascinating. You can really get good matches instead of just looking at pretty faces and kind of rolling the dice over and over again. Much better. So download the lead today on iOS or Android and check it out. Message hashtag Tim to your in app concierge to jump to the front of the wait list and have your profile review. First. Check it out. The leak on iOS4 Android. On iOS 4 Android.

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