The Real Root of ADHD Isn't Trauma, It's This | Dr. Sasha Hamdani

0:02 Everywhere I go. Airports, events, walking down the street, people stop me and say, Louis. This show got me through one of the hardest seasons of my life. And it's one of the coolest things when people come up to me. So if you see me, please come up and say hi and let me know how this show, The School of Greatness, has impacted you. It lights me up because our mission at Greatness Media is to impact 100 million lives every single week. So if today's conversation hits home for you, do me a favor and push the follow button right now. It means that the next conversation will be delivered to you and will find you exactly when you need it. Again, thank you so much for being here and listening to the School of Greatness. Make sure to follow right now to stay up to date on the latest and greatest. There's so many things that fragment focus. Trauma can fragment focus, PTSD, anxiety can fragment focus. So many things that impact focus, impact behavior.

0:55 But that's not truly. A DHD. What would you say is typically the root cause of someone having ADHD? It's not trauma? Really? No. She's a board certified psychiatrist, a best-selling author, and ADHD specialist who was diagnosed with ADHD herself. Please welcome Dr. Sasha. I'm done.

1:18 You can't. Observe. emotional regulation. You can't observe these kind of difficulties and subtleties that are happening internally. We have this entire world of medication. Like if you have an ADHD diagnosis, you don't necessarily have to be on one of those medications. These kids almost seem like they got worse, or it was just like it didn't seem like it helped. Why are drugs typically the first thing that most doctors or primary care individuals prescribe to someone when they diagnose them with ADHD?

1:45 I think when Yum. Experience as a doctor. Around A D H D.

1:54 First off, what is the difference between A D H D and A D? And what are the main I guess flags to know if you are undiagnosed with one of those. Yeah. Okay. So I'm gonna blow your mind right now.

2:09 A D D and A D C. Same thing. Same thing. Same thing. It's just A D D is an outdated term. So previously AD was really classified as more like an inattentive presentation. And now ADC is broken into three categories.

2:23 Inattentive hyperactive and combined. Inattentive being not meaning not present. Like difficulty with initiating tasks, difficulty with completing tasks, difficulty with forgetfulness and organization. Like think about the daydreamer. That's me. That is me. Yeah. And then hyperactive.

2:43 Think about physically and verbally impulsive. Difficult staying in your seat. You have a hard time. Okay, so that's I used to like shake my knees constantly in school, just like all day. Just Couldn't sit still.

2:56 I kinda have that now and that's why I'm crossing my legs and smushing it down. Yeah. So focusing, yes. Mm. So And then combined is obviously the combination of both.

3:07 And so at eighty D, what it was previously called, is really more in line with ADHD in attended type. So the third what's the third aspect of A D H D? Combined. Oh it's partially combined. Mm-hmm. It's hard for you to focus and you're verbally and physically Compulsive, is that what it's impulsive. Impulsive. Interesting. Okay. And so those would be kind of signs to see if you do this frequently.

3:31 You might have that. Correct. And I love how you said might, because e equally important to diagnosing in ADHD is diagnosing out everything else. That could be fragmenting focus, which is a lot of things. Yeah, or just distract it or yeah. So So how does someone actually get diagnosed with ADHD? There are a couple of different ways you can do it. You can do like computer or neurological evaluation where you're doing a a bunch of tests and you can do it with a therapist. You can do it with a

4:01 primary care doctor, you can do with a pediatrician and they're getting information from you. They're evaluating a child from maybe teachers and from parents. Um, if you see a psychiatrist, a lot of time it's based on clinical interview. So you're going and you are talking about your entire medical history. You're talking about your entire psychiatric history. You're looking for. These longitudinal patterns showing like your

4:24 focus over time and how that has been impacted or changed by Different things like hormones and life events and other things like that. And then additional like

4:36 layer to all of this. Is that Frankly, this is coming from my perspective. I think ADHD First of all, I hate the name. So attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. I don't think that encapsulates everything. I think it's confusing.

4:50 Secondly. I think that it's really instead of Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. I think it's truly a regulation issue. Emotional regulation? All I think attention is in there. I think motivation is in there. I think energy is in there. And I definitely think emotion is in there. And so I remember being in middle school

5:11 elementary school and there being a few kids who were like They had A D D, right? Back in the day. We all know that. In the eighties and nineties growing up, right? Yeah. And Hearing that they were on drugs, right, or whatever it was, Ridderal Adderall or something or Riddle and Adderall, all these things, right? And it didn't seem like it helped.

5:29 Like these kids almost seemed like they got worse, or it was just like they didn't seem like it helped them. Why are drugs typically the first thing that most I guess doctors or primary care individuals prescribe. Yeah. to someone when they

5:43 Diagnosed them with ADHD. Why does it seem like that? Again, maybe it's not a place, but I think when So when a physician is evaluating you or when a mental health Well, yeah, a physician is evaluating you. for ADHD and you've done and we've decided, like we've looked at the medical history, we've looked at the psychiatric history, we've ruled things in, we've ruled things out. I think this ADHD.

6:04 I think the conversation really should be about the two ways you can treat ADHD, which is behavioral and like lifestyle modification. And medication. And a lot of times it's the combination of both that has the best result. But there are people.

6:18 That do really well with just behavioral management. So as a A general protocol? I think that initial conversation where you were talking about medication. Or you're talking about potential treatment forward.

6:30 You should. always talk about the behavioral and lifestyle. Like at its base level and then you kind of figure out no, what I will tell you Is that A D H D medication and stimulant medication specifically.

6:44 can be life changing for some people. Like some people just have incredible benefit and it actually allows them to do the behavioral and lifestyle modification. But We have this entire world of medication. Like if you have an ADH2 diagnosis, you don't necessarily have to be on one of those medications. What would you say is typically the root cause of someone having ADHD. Genetics.

7:06 Really? Yeah it's not trauma. No. Really? No. So you're saying not having having an adverse childhood where your parents are arguing and screaming and you're feeling like you have to be hyper vigilant. Isn't A environmental cause of

7:20 having some type of ADHD symptoms? No, okay. So to say something with absolute certainty is not gonna be my jam. Cause right, I think that maybe maybe there's something I don't fully understand about that space. But I think that at a fundamental Um

7:37 Baseline I think a Primarily it's genetic. And he I'll tell you my beef with this trauma perspective of it. Cause I I truly understand where that's coming from. My issue is that sometimes There are Isn't

7:52 Traumatic things. happening. And a parent is looking at their kid who might be experiencing ADHD symptoms. And there is actually a hesitation to get them treated, get them evaluated because they don't want to

8:06 Th there was trauma here, this is your fault. I feel like there was there's some difficulty In terms of It is up. parent at fault with that trauma hypothesis. Well I don't think you need to blame parents necessarily on on every case of a care having it, right? So there's different circumstances, but I'm just thinking from

8:26 what you said, you know, this book being about emotional regulation. Yeah, learning the skills emotional regulation for my I'm speaking for myself and a lot of people I've t spoken to. Yeah, when I grew up in a An environment that did not feel emotional safe. Yes. I didn't have the emotional tools. on how to regulate myself. Yes. And therefore I used strategies as a kid.

8:50 To feel safe and to protect myself. Yeah. You know, even though I wasn't physically necessarily in harm's way. Emotionally and psychologically and I felt like I was not safe. You were in danger. Yeah.

9:03 And so therefore I use strategies to try to protect myself or stand out or do different things. And I feel like For me, that trauma. that experience cause me to act out in a lot of ways. From my personal experience if I'm self

9:20 Mm-hmm. Assessing my childhood. And I feel like that environment caused me to be hyper vigilant. Yeah. you know, vocally and physically erratic or whatever, you know, the terminology is. But I don't think it was genetic for me because I feel like I've learned the skills of healing and learned tools of emotional regulation like you talk about in here. Yeah.

9:41 That caused me to be more peace and feel more psychologically and emotionally safe. Right. And so that's where I was asking about the trauma side of things. Yeah. versus genetics. Well, let me let me back up.

9:53 First of all. love that you have have been able given a chaotic kind of upbringing and environment initially. that you've been able to find those skills and actually not only fine tune them and actually make them applicable for yourself, but actually see benefit from them. So that's Huge.

10:11 But what I would say is that there's so many things that fragment focus. Sure. There's so many things that e trauma can fragment focus. PTSD, a huge cause of that. Anxiety can fragment focus. thyroid conditions can fragment focus. There's so many hormones. So there's so many things that impact focus, impact behaviour. But that's not truly.

10:32 A H. So you could have focus fragmentation that's coming from all those things, but ADHD is a distinct Longitudinal pattern of Usually. Genetic. What interesting.

10:43 So I might have had symptoms or or similarities of ADHD, but not ha ADHD. Yes. How does a practitioner distinguish the difference? Do they look at your blood work and say like okay, your DNA says this? versus the behavioral traits that you're using or or experiencing in life. Yeah.

11:02 Because if the symptoms look the same, how do you know The diagnosis. Okay. Yes. So if You know, you're seeing these symptoms of Fragment.

11:12 attention kind of throughout. And The doctor. has does a full assessment. They've looked at medical stuff, they've looked at psychiatric stuff, they've looked at Mm.

11:24 the just psychological kind of environment that they're in. In that state of affairs in terms of their life and what happening. And They get to a spot where they're

11:36 Trying to figure out like Is this ADHD or is this not? Then you start looking back at patterns. Is this A consistent pattern from birth this was going on with ups and downs, and this had been a consistent pattern. Is this

11:49 really localized around traumatic things and this is like a trauma response. Is this something that happens when metabolically something is different? So you're looking at Context? And you're looking at kind of when these things peak and Valley, you're looking at

12:06 From From Early, early ages. What has this pattern been through? And I think it's really difficult because I also We touched on this briefly, but like I think with ADHD

12:19 Diagnostically we're at a a very problematic spot because that initial data was done on Hyperactive young males. So right now we have this diagnostic criteria that's not encapsulating so many other presentations. But also aren't many young males hyperactive? I mean it's like are just hormones make young men more hyperactive than not? I have a Six year old young

12:44 Male. He is. Um jumping off the walls and running around. Energy and vigor. I I I think it's I think it can sometimes be Difficult to tell, for sure. But uh but the criteria was built on observable data. There's a lot of this, especially when you're making the argument to include emotional regulation, which by the way.

13:04 Europe did in twenty nineteen. They amended their criteria to include emotional regulation and the US still Hasn't. But When you're looking at all this.

13:14 You can't Observe. emotional regulation. You can't observe these kind of lived experiences and these and the these difficulties and subtleties that are happening internally. And so now we have this in this presentation where

13:29 Anyone who's having this emotional turbulence that happens with ADHD and emotional dysregulation. Oh, because of that failure in criteria. Doctors are like, Okay, well, it's anxiety. It's depression. And they're treated with antidepressant after antidepressant after antidepressant. And antidepressants.

13:47 By the way. I'm not against antidepressants. think they're great. I think they're life changing tools. If that's your diagnosis. So if you don't have anxiety and depression, you're started on um

13:59 An antidepressant. This cycle just perpetuates and what happens is that I've had patients come into my office They're uh they sit in the chair. They've

14:09 Maybe they're on their tenth antidepressant. And they're like I ch went to my doctor and I asked him after seeing stuff online or or talking to my family. I think I have A H D. And the doctor will say.

14:22 Well, we can't even look at that until we get your anxiety and depression under control. Shut up. Yeah. Wow. perpetuating cycle of misdiagnosis. That's where I feel again. That's where I feel the medical

14:35 world can be harmful. If they misdiagnose and put you on 10 different antidepressants and say, Well, we can't treat you for something else until we figure this anxiety and depression thing out. I'm not saying all medical is bad, but I'm saying it can be harmful. Yeah. When that happens and someone comes in your office and is like, I've been on ten antidepressants. And I don't know how to like get better.

14:57 Yeah. That's it's almost like it's harming that individual more than helping them. Yeah. Well if it's the wrong diagnosis, it is objectively harming them.'Cause you're giving a medic uh medication That is changing your brain functioning. Man. It's it's wild. That just makes me angry.

15:12 Yeah. If someone's been misdiagnosed, been given in a chemical to transform their brain in a negative way that they weren't supposed to have. And then they have to live with that potential for the rest of their life. I mean look at if you look at the like average age of diagnosis for males, six to eight.

15:29 For females. Thirty five. Of of ADHD or anxiety and depression? Of ADHD. That's when they get their diet. And usually it's because they're bringing in their kid and they're like, Wait a second. No. This sounds just like me. And so

15:43 So women so moms will come and get diagnosed at thirty five when they bring her kid. That they that they seemingly can't control they don't know what's Wrong with them or what's going on, right? Yeah. And so they'll come in and they're like, actually that sounds a lot like me. And that might be the first time that they're actually getting treatment.

16:00 for what they should be getting treatment for. But think about all thirty five years when they were having these Pockets of time. We're on puberty. around childbirth, around all of these different things where you saw big spikes in emotional regulation'cause

16:13 It's a hard world and life is hard. And like their big pockets and instead of like looking at what what's the root cause of this, what what is at the base of this. It's it's hormonal. It's mommy brain. It's you know, they're just getting p it's anxiety, it's depression. And so

16:29 They're either misdiagnosed or they're just frankly ignored and passed along. Host part or mortar might be right, different things. Now How does someone know they have true anxiety or depression versus stressful thoughts that can come and go.

16:47 Or anxious thoughts that come and go. Yeah. Patterns. Patterns, um, you look at intensity of kind of thoughts, you look at how disruptive it is in terms of your day to day functioning.

17:01 So like for depression. You need criteria that it is over a certain span of time. And you look at sleep, you look at interest level, you look at is this person experiencing guilt or hopelessness? You look at energy, you look at concentration, you look at appetite, you're looking at all of these different it's not just, you know, does this person have suicidal thoughts or not?

17:21 It is you're encapsulating a lot of different things. Over a certain span of time. Versus They went through a breakup. I know they're sad.

17:30 This a this is a big difference. So you're you're catching it over a pretty prolonged period of time. Um with anxiety, same kind of thing. You're looking over a period of time and you're looking like Is this person and dealing with like m musculoskeletal stuff. Are they restless? Do their muscle tension is sleep getting impact into their

17:50 panic uh attacks like You're looking all of those different pieces. But the thing that distinguishes that from a situational up and down. Is truly Patterns.

18:00 Over time. Over longer of time. 'Cause if you're gone through a breakup and you're still sad three, six, or maybe nine months later, it may not be anxiety or depression. You just maybe haven't dealt with the breakup fully yet or the loss yet. But a lot of your book talks about Rejection. And it sounds like Most people in the world are afraid of being rejected or the feeling of rejection. Yeah. Whether it be a micro rejection, meaning a comment online where someone didn't approve of their

18:29 Post. Yeah. Or a rejection of approaching someone, then saying no, or rejection at work, or rejection in their marriage, whatever it might be. Yeah. What is the Consequence. of rejection from most people in the world right now. When they experience rejection, they feel what?

18:48 So Let's let's back up a little bit,'cause I don't think anybody likes rejection, right? No you're never gonna meet someone who's like, that was great for me uh after getting rejected or criticized or maybe you do, I don't know. Uh but Most people are gonna be like That was bad. But then they are able to kind of move on and and

19:06 Take whatever positives they need to from that moment or or possibly not even do that. Just Forget about it and move on. There is a concept called rejection sensitive dysphoria. And that is

19:18 A profound Emotional response To real or perceived. Rejection. Criticism.

19:25 or disappointing someone. It is a neurological phenomenon that's happening. And so what I tell people Is that If you are looking Yeah, at

19:36 where you fall on this emotional spectrum. And reject rejection sensitive dysphoria. Yeah. And it's real or perceived rejection. Yeah, you might think you're getting received. Uh think you're getting rejection. You're not. It's just a fear around it too, right? Okay, sorry. So what is the there's a scale of this? Back trap.

19:55 There's a spectrum. So if you're looking at and it's it's pretty intuitive because when you ask yourself like How sensitive am I? What is normal? You look at this spectrum and you know, that's what we go over in this book because I don't think that was ever delineated. I don't know where where you w you would consider normal. But where I consider normal

20:16 Would be when you're having a situational stressor and your mood goes up or down. Appropriately. Now you look at one end of the spectrum and it's apathy where you're having an emotional trigger and you don't really elevate up or down it's just meh numb.

20:31 You're there. polar other opposite end of the spectrum, which is kind of where I live. Where you feel things. Deeply and quickly and in For a long time and it's Truly because of a difference in neurological wiring.

20:47 And I would put R S D on that side of the spectrum. Projection sensitive dysphoria. So if you feel things deeply and intensely for long periods of time. Whether it is a Seemingly

21:03 horrible event that occurred to you or a friend or someone you know and you feel deeply ab around that experience. Or maybe it wasn't that horrible perceived of an event, but you still feel deeply for something that's smaller. Yeah. What does that say about you? I think that says that you're highly emotionally sensitive. Yes. And I don't necessarily think that's an I mean, I want to make sure that that's not

21:27 Good or bad label, right? It is what it is. It's just you're wired. Like there are some people that process emotion more intensely. And so if if that's how you feel Really deeply, really quickly, really intensely and it It lingers for a long time.

21:44 You're one of those people that probably does. interpret emotion differently, process emotion differently. There's a different set of skills that you use for that. Yes. I feel like I grew up like that. Yeah. Yeah. Feeling deeply around lots of things.

21:58 Did you get called sensitive a lot? Uh no, maybe emotional, but you know. But I would like I was Yeah, I just felt very deeply. And I would go into like an emotional Cave at times, you know.

22:12 Yeah. And either Him. by myself or around other people and yeah. It's interesting. And I had I had to learn tools as an adult on how to like I still feel very deeply But I've had to

22:27 I don't know if it's a psychological tool or an emotional tool or what it is, spiritual tool on how to feel it, not bypass the feeling, but also not let the feeling take over my life. Oh my god. So that I can actually Keep moving forward. And and focusing on focusing out rather than focusing inward constantly.

22:48 So that's kind of the entire gist of this is I wanted to make sure that people understood It's not about making you less sensitive. It's giving you more control. Yeah. So for people who do feel things really deeply. I feel like being able to utilize those skills. And it's all stuff you've heard about. It's all stuff you know.

23:07 But knowing when to apply it. How to apply it. That's really gonna help you. And I think with this book, the way it's broken up is the first part is the neuroscience of truly if you're neurologically wired to process emotion differently. And it goes into where you fall on that spectrum.

23:23 Then it goes into the tools and then the th last part of the book is just all real world examples. Where then it breaks down like this what's happening in the brain. This is a skill you use. Let's practice it. Cause I think going through If you were able to do that while you're not in this dysregulated state.

23:40 you're going to be able to kind of learn and build. And then when you need it, it's there. You kind of learnt and it's experienced and You've practiced it in lower stake moments. So I think that's that's the key of kind of moving more into that emotionally resilient spot. Yes. If someone feels like their brain is working against them. Yeah. And they feel like they just can't get a hold of

24:02 Their thoughts. And their brain is kind of working against them. What do you think is actually going on inside of them if they feel like they cannot get a control on their brain. You you have to give me more information. Do you mean like they feel like their emotions are out of control?

24:16 Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of times like if you go back And you actually think about the neuroanatomy of what's at play. There are two big big things that we talk about. Number one is the amygdala.

24:29 And that is that emotional threat detector. in the body. In the brain. And the second part is your frontal lobe, the pr prefrontal cortex directly under your forehead. Smartest part of the brain. Judgment, decision making, processing, that's all that frontal lobe functioning. When you're dealing with someone who's highly emotionally sensitive. That amygdala?

24:49 Hyper responsive. So now it's like taking emotional data. Processing it. And it's dumping alarm chemicals like I am in danger. Something's happening. This is going on. This is real. And so you and you kind of describe this with this hypervigilance. You know, you're on lookout for

25:07 This is happening, this is dangerous. So this mantle is spinning dumping alarm chemicals. Then the frontal lobe. under responsive so when you need that guy most Where is he? Who like he's not processing or overwriting this.

25:20 And the connection between the two is weak. So basically your emotions are going to outweigh that logical part of your brain almost every time. Unless you have those skills. That's where You know, I probably made too many mistakes in my past, letting my emotions get the best of me in the heat of the moment. Right. Like and you react or you say something, you're like, Uh, I shouldn't have said that. Oh my God. I have

25:41 I have Many examples. Many of those mowers, right? Many examples. You spent years thinking something was wrong with you before you had a diagnosis, correct? Yeah. So what changed Once you understood what was really happening.

25:55 I I don't even think it was about the diagnosis because it my diagnostic story was a little bit weird in that I was diagnosed in fourth grade. Um Did well. Didn't bother me. Didn't really No, that I was on ADHD medication, which was weird. Yeah. Your parents just gave it to you without you knowing? Yeah, just thought it was a vitamin. How do you feel about that? Well not even Okay, so what what you feel trained?

26:18 So they were like This is gonna help you focus. Okay. Okay. So I but I never was Is had that sit down conversation of like This is ADC. This is what you're taking. This is a drug. This is chemically changing your brain every time you take it. Now keep in mind.

26:34 This was I'm not Can it Like it it was a long time ago. This was very un

26:41 Girls getting diagnosed with ADHD was basically unheard of. Um I was in a school. Where You know, I number one, I was like the only ethnicity, so I already felt really othered.

26:54 And I was You wanna be accepted, you wanted to be yeah. And from the get go I knew I was very emotionally sensitive and so did my parents. So I think They fumbled the bag on that one. It like they could have handled that better.

27:08 But now being right, but being a parent, I understand that this is where it came from and I think That they more than made up for that because Then when I I go through schooling, do pretty well. Get into medical school.

27:21 And And Medical school. I go through Like it was like the first two weeks and I was like

27:29 Did I have a stroke? What is wrong with me? Like why are things Stroke? Yeah, I just felt like In medical school? No, I didn't actually. But I was like things have g I've gone from the top of my class to the bottom of my class, what happened? My parents were like, Are you taking your vitamin? I was like I don't know where that is. And they're like, Okay, well

27:48 It's actually eighty two medication. Oh my gosh. And so then yeah, I felt Extremely betrayed. I felt very angry and you know, this is coming from

28:00 Parents who Well educated. Like the most attentive loving parents. And I just I I f was so angry.

28:09 So anxious. And then I was like Fine, I will show you. Like I knew kids who had ADHD when I was growing up and they aren't me. They're like kids who are you know, doing crazy stuff and getting in trouble, and that is not me.

28:24 So I tried and I tried and I was watching All my peers. Um whizzed past me and I got into a spot Where I studied.

28:34 So hard for an exam. So hard. I knew this neuronatomy of the brain. inside out. Like even right now, if you were to show me, I'd be like, this is it. I know it all. I go in for this test.

28:47 I do this test. Hand it in before anyone else. out the door and like, that was perfect. This I'm gonna shover in everyone's face. This gonna be great. We go and this is

28:57 I don't know if you had this. Did do they ever like post grades thing? Yeah, not online. It's just like on a sheet. So we're all like huddled around the next day. looking and I was like oh My God, somebody got a thirty two percent. And I was like, Oh God, it's me. No way. So I'm looking at my ID number and I was like Like I got a hundred there's no way. This must be an error.

29:18 I go. I forgot to flip over the sheet. Oh, you left the whole thing blank. Mm-hmm. So you would have got a hundred percent had you flipped it over probably. I

29:28 Crying. I went to the instructor and I was like, just give it give it to me orally. I'll do it right now. I'll show you I know it. And he's like, You need to learn from this. And I was like, I will learn nothing from this. And so then I was like That's what kind of was like this is a tipping point. I mean then my dad was like, Just come home.

29:46 Let's learn about your brain. And If it's if it's ADHD. We'll figure out what to do if it's not. We'll figure out something else to do.

29:53 So went home. Like. J did this whole library excursion of sitting on the floor, reading articles, w uh like learn. Everything. And by the end of it, it I was like, This is for sure me.

30:06 And this is what we kind of made a plan and started working on both like the behavioral side and the medication side and trying to figure out a good path forward from there. I forgot what the actual question was.

30:20 I mean you learning about your parents, you know, kind of Lying to you, I guess, about the vitamin being medication and you being upset and then you realizing okay this is I'm gonna prove them wrong. And realizing that the test I did not know that wrong. Yeah, that could have been one off though. Cause you were like you proved that you knew the information. You studied hard.

30:42 And you had the answer. I got a perfect score in the first half. Yeah. So it's I mean, in some ways you did prove them wrong, but yeah. You forgot to flip the page. Uh so And Yeah.

30:53 I think it's uh it it was just an interesting kind of trajectory. I think they they Really? handled it beautifully. Like if in in that moment, like going back and And being able to you know, my dad in particular, he was an engineer and he Just, you know, was like my second brain.

31:13 He was just trying to help me and he was like Well let's look at let's look at the data. Let's look at how you answered these questions. Where was the problem and and really Like it. without his help, I wouldn't have gotten through medical school because I was learning so much about my brain and learning about how I learned. And how I handled things and

31:32 I think Part of that diagnostic thing is Uh uh A G aside. I remember where the question was going. It should side. The emotional regulation

31:42 I figure it out much, much later. And it wasn't until my dad died. That's when you figure out emotional regulation. That's when I figured out for the first time. So my dad died in twenty twenty four. Um relatively qu like he had been sick for a while with an underlying lung condition, but had been stable.

31:59 And then he we found out he had uh Spot like lung cancer. stage one, they were like, Don't worry about it. Like it's not that big of a deal. He does radiation, does chemo. And then he called me and it he was like

32:12 Something's wrong. So I fly from King City to him. I've like He looked terrible. I was took him to the hospital and I was like Do something, do a PET scan. We need and they're like, It's too early. I'm like, just do one. I don't care. Like

32:25 Let's just figure out what's happening here. Uh it was everywhere. Ever any time. Mm-hmm. Died thirteen days later. No way. Yeah. Oh my gosh. And so at that point, I think just like the whiplash of all of that And just how heavily emotional it was.

32:42 That was the first time, Louis, that I was like My emotional status directly impacts my functional status. If I am emotional and emotionally overwhelmed. I can't do these things. So I was like, and I I had seen that before with like

32:59 breakups and and other things like that where it things happened. But I didn't tie those two things together. Because like if it if it's overwhelm'cause I have tons on my plate. I will delegate. I will hack my way around. I will figure out a skill. But I can't delegate the emotional side.

33:16 And so that's when I figured out that connected and that's when I started writing them. Wow. Yeah, for me it was The emotional side of thing would take over my life. When I would feel too deeply or or Of the range of emotions guilt, loss, shame, anger, whatever the emotion was, sadness. But deep

33:34 Deep it would suffocate me. It would engulf my life. And I couldn't turn it off. Yeah. the office or if I was, you know, I would literally just kinda just stay home by myself.

33:46 No, you feel like emotionally navigate those things, those feelings. For a long time. And It would Yeah, it would suffocate me.

33:55 My whole life would be suffocated by emotions. Yeah. kind of not obsessed, but really all in on like, okay, why? Why is this happening? Yeah. And that's where I ask in the beginning, like learning how to heal. traumatic memories that cause the emotional avalanche.

34:14 to take over my life. Yeah. Once I learned emotional regulation and healing traumatic memories that were triggering the emotions.

34:25 Or causing the hyper vigilance because of an emotion. tied to a memory that had yet to heal. An open wound from the past. That when you poked it, boom, my whole nervous system would just be in pain. Yes. And the bigger the uh trigger or the bigger the

34:44 Perceived abuse or perceived abandonment or whatever the wound was. The perception of whether it was real or not perceived. I didn't know how to navigate it. Uh yeah.

34:56 And so that's why that's in the beginning, like When we learn, I think The ability to navigate our emotions. And we can use a lot of the skills you talk about in your book. Um we can come back to the present.

35:10 We can hopefully learn to integrate the healing journey. We can hopefully have a moment to f refocus our energy on what's at hand, whether it being present with someone, whether it being our job, whether it being whatever things we need to do. Yeah. Instead of being engulfed in the feelings. Yes. Consuming us. Yeah.

35:33 And constantly ruminat on the event that happened that caused this feeling. And I think when we can learn those emotion regulation skills like you talk about here. Um, it doesn't mean bad things aren't going to happen that we need to face like the loss of your father. It's gonna be

35:52 overwhelming. Yeah. But hopefully it doesn't take years of your life away from you living in the present now. And that's what it's spelt like in the past. Like when you get that It it does. Take away years of your life. This is what you go to sleep thinking about. This is what you wake up thinking about. It's it consumes you. Yeah. And so, and and when you're right in the throw of it. You're just like this will never end.

36:17 I'm gonna feel this way forever. It it it just takes up so much. mental space emotional space having to deal with that. And and for people who do feel deeply. They feel it.

36:29 Obviously deep. More they feel it more. When I mean it seems like women often get told that they have anxiety or depression for years before someone checks that it's potentially ADHD or something else. Why do you think that happens to women specifically? Oh my God. Like if you're talking about ADHD specifically and these are women who have been misdiagnosed with anxiety and depression.

36:52 You go back and one big thing is that mm the diagnostic criteria. It's not built to capture Women. So it's not built to catch it's built on hyper young boys. It's not capturing adult females. Like that you're not really getting that presentation. The second thing

37:10 Um that I think is a big factor in this is just a hormonal component. So hormonally, when your estrogen drops, your dopamine drops as well. And dopamine is that great regulator that kinda helps everything with mood and alertness. And so when you have that drop in dopamine, your ADHD symptoms get worse. Problem is Is that

37:28 So does mood, so do all these other things. And so you're being told It's hormonal. This is postpartum. It's not that big of a deal. You'll get through it. Or you get treated for anxiety, get treated for depression, when really It's the secondary AHD that's complicating things as well. Darn thing. Is that I feel like women

37:48 From just like a societal perspective. They it's unacceptable for them to be rambunctious or you know interrupting things or you know, get up and move around. A lot of times

38:02 They learn from an early age, they have to mask their symptoms. And so as time goes by, they get better and better at doing that. It's not that the symptoms go away. It's not that the symptoms aren't impacting them. They're just really good at compensating and getting past it. And blending into society better.

38:19 all while taking that on as a huge toll on themselves. And so now you get You know, ten, fifteen, twenty years down the line. And these women are like, Okay, enough's enough. Let's go and get diagnosed. And then the doctor's like

38:33 You would have known if you had it before. Mm-hmm. That you're doing too well. And so it's just it's it's a system that wasn't built. For women. Interesting. My friend, I hope you're enjoying this episode. And the School of Greatness drops new conversations every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday around money, mindset, healing, manifestation, and relationships. And if you're not yet following the show, then you're missing all of them.

38:58 please tap the follow button right now, and you'll get notified the moment every new episode drops, because the next one might be exactly what you need. Now let's get back to the conversation. Do you think Just modern society life is causing a lot of anxiety, depression, and ADHD versus

39:18 I don't know, living on a farm and working hard with your family unit back in the day or something like that. Like is it just modern society is causing so much overwhelm of the brain and the emotions to be able to navigate all the Now that's happening. I think right now. It's hard. We're living in a really hard world. It's hard it's a hard

39:39 Every which way you look at it. Um Which is why I think it uh discussions about emotional regulation are especially important right now. But I think

39:48 D like Does this increasingly like digital overwhelming world does that cause ADC? No. Does it worsen ADC? For sure.

39:57 So I think there is an exacerbation of all of these things just because We're living in this extremely chaotic timeline with so many things happening, so many Like I Have an eight year old.

40:12 Girl. And she sees me on my phone. And she was talking about like I want a phone too. And I was like No never.

40:21 And she's like, Well, why that's not fair. Why do you have a phone and I was like, There is literally nothing good that lives in my phone. I wanna throw it into the sun. Like I like The phone. I feel like I that's where I've fed it like a lot of times social media is so dark and difficult and like it just It wears on you just being a human right now.

40:44 Yeah. So just modern society. It's hard in general like everything's happening. Yeah, I kinda feel blessed that I didn't get a phone until I was like seventeen or eighteen. So I kinda missed that window of being on screens, really. I guess I played like maybe a little bit of like video games, like maybe, but I was more Super Nintendo?

41:05 I think s I mean, I was more into like We would we didn't have enough money to have a Nintendo until the years later, but I would like to go to the arcade. And like but it was like a set amount of time and I didn't have enough money to be there for hours. So like how many quarters do you have? But I was more in the sports world where it was just like after school I'm playing on the playground, I'm doing sports activities. So I was always out playing.

41:25 Yeah. And Then I come home at night, have dinner, and it's like, maybe later I had like a little bit of time, but I wasn't really interested in playing video games when I was older because I wanted to get better at sports. Right. So I kinda miss that window of being a kid in this generation where you got phones early or your parents had phone and you're playing the games with them or iPads. I kind of miss that.

41:46 Yeah. But as a parent Of Two. uh you know, twin girls right now. What advice would you have for me?

41:55 Around iPads iPhones, screen time. Uh Cartoons. Movies

42:04 for my kids or any parents for their kids. If they want to have healthy young kids that have fewer chances of getting anxiety, depression, and ADHD. So I don't think

42:19 Screens. Are going to cause ADHD. I think they could worsen an underlying ADHD for sure. And screens do fragment focus. So in that early developmental period from zero to two. That's really when you're still so neuroplastic. You're you're learning things, even though you're not

42:36 up and about doing all those things, you're learning kind of the flow of the world. You're learning how to encapsulate attention. You're you're building all of that gray and white matter and trying to figure out w what your brain is doing, how it's gonna be wired, right? So I And never gonna be the person who's like Absolutely My mom is that person. My mom's a pediatrician and she is like don't do screens and I was like I literally grew up

43:02 On TV player. Sitting in front of the TV, yeah. Sitting in front like this far away or TV. Um, and so I It was You know, I

43:12 I know that for a lot of parents screen time is truly a tool. So that the parent it's uh or his or herself can take a break and do yeah and have an hour to themselves. Yeah. Can make dinner, can do the laundry, can just go to the bathroom. Yes. Totally. So I I don't think Like

43:31 i if you have an excessive amount of like guilt and shame about stuff like that, I don't like it's all about moderation to me. I think if there is a way that you are able to minimize screen time, use more like integrated play and and movement and other interactions that are screen free. Your kid is more likely to kind of grow up and mean that less. So I but if you still have screens and I will tell you, my kids had screens, um, not

44:02 of their own, but like they were exposed to it at different points in their lives and there are still times Like Okay. I mean To finish. This last patient.

44:14 And if If I I if you guys are around and I'm trying to play with you, there's no way I can do that. Here's a show. It's Twenty six minutes long.

44:24 You know, I so I think it's It's all about moderation. Mm-hmm. If someone is You know. They don't have ADHD.

44:34 They don't have anxiety and depression, but they are just feeling overwhelmed a lot. And they feel like they don't know how to reclaim reclaim their thoughts. Their emotions. But They're not diagnosed with one of these things. Yeah. What's an emotional tool?

44:50 that you talk about that people could use If they're just feeling like life is so hard right now, I'm overwhelmed, I'm overworked, I'm feeling stressed, I can't reclaim my focus, like what's an emotional tool they can use right now to help them? So I Again, a lot of the tools in this book are stuff that you've heard about or probably I've been told. Like, for example, any time I was

45:14 in this like spirals of overwhelm or things like that. Take a deep breath. Go and I'm like I like get out of here with that. I don't wanna hear that from you, but if I arrived to that conclusion myself, I somehow think it's like the greatest breakthrough of all time. But I think one of the best things is the way we talk about emotional. sensitivity and dysregulation and overwhelm. is also understanding that it can present very differently. Like there are times where

45:42 I feel very overwhelmed. And my initial impulse is to be a recluse and to withdraw and be quiet and go do that. Then there are times. where I'm emotionally overwhelmed and I am

45:54 Pacing. And I'm like talking out loud and I'm like trying my best to kinda work through it. If I am in a spot where I'm like by myself and withdrawn. I probably do have the capacity where I could be like Okay, let me take a deep breath. Let me do this because I'm already kind of on the quiet side and I'm by myself and I'm

46:12 I can I mm may be more likely to do that. If I'm pacing around, telling me to slow down and take a deep breath, feels so much harder. So that time when My nervous system is literally on fire.

46:24 I lean into it like I need to use movement. I need to somehow push that oxygenated glucose. into my frontal lobe so I can think my way out of this. So this is like Uh

46:35 Give me an example. Being on this. Press tour and For this book. It's it's just

46:42 First of all, writing a book about rejection big on a press story. But Um I had you know, these podcasts line up and one of the podcasts pulled out two days before I was supposed to film. And

46:55 I How did it make you feel? God. It's like trash. So I was just like I'm just not a big enough deal and that's why they canceled. I they feel like I'm bad for their brand. They don't want to talk about emotional sensitivity. The book is stupid. I'm stupid. Like it just

47:14 In went? From zero to sixty really quickly, and I was sitting on the couch with my husband, and I Just started getting up. I started pacing around and he's like, Mm, okay, something's happening. And then I remembered.

47:28 Like, okay, I know what's happening. My amygdala is spinning out of control. I'm dumping alarm chemicals. I need that frontal lobe to kick on, but I it it's hard because I can't think my way out of this. I can't even think about an alternative to what's happening'cause I'm so convinced this is happening. And so I had seen like a couple Of days prior to that, like

47:48 You know, someone was talking about like the um benefit of doing squats like for like longevity and like uh muscle health and brain health. And I was like, great. So I'm like going from pacing to all of a sudden doing squats in front and my husband is just like What are you doing? And so I'm doing squats.

48:06 I like It it's like less than two minutes and I'm like Okay. Stop. I sit down again.

48:13 I reread the email and this time I'm like Th this is the first time that I reread the email. And I saw the words due to a family emergency. Did not even read that the first time. And I was like

48:25 Okay. That I can That I can stomach. And then Two hours later I get a thing where they're like they wanted to float you this different date. And I was like

48:35 Okay. Right. So I mean I think it's all about like understanding how you present, working with your body instead of fighting against it. And just using Sure.

48:48 What's happening in the brain in simple terms when someone feels A small moment of rejection as overwhelming pain or anxiety. So I think basically from that fundamental perspective is that emotional threat center of the brain, the amygdala. is very hyper responsive. It

49:07 Freaks out. It starts sending alarm chemicals to the rest of the body, telling you like You were in danger and it's very much this fight or flight response. You're in danger. Something is wrong. You need to either get ready to throw hands or you need to get out of here.

49:22 Or you need to freeze because those are your options that you have. And Oh While this is going on. Your frontal lobe is supposed to help you do checks and balances and be like, this actually isn't totally accurate. You can you can calm it down a little bit.

49:37 But that is under responsive. So you're not getting that checks and balances. So really you're at the mercy of this emotional cascade slowing down. So unless you have those skills to help that happening. You just gotta write it out. Which it seems very unfair. Yeah, it's tough. Yeah.

49:54 So you need the skills. You need the tools. Yeah. Um What's the most damaging piece of advice people with R S D get from well meaning friends or family? Oh my God, can I tell you when I hate the most?

50:08 Hopefully I haven't done this. No. And if you have straight to jail. Yeah, right. Um Just calm down. It's like oh my God, thank you so much. I never thought of that. Like that doesn't help me. at all. And this is with someone has rejection sensitive dysphoria. Yeah. So if I'm already feeling like

50:27 My Mm my entire Brain and body. are responding to this rejection or threat or criticism. And I

50:36 Recognize in real time. This is a huge response and it's overwhelming. Now you're telling me to calm down and relax or whatever, yeah. So what can someone say when they see a friend, a loved one? And their mind looks like they're freaking out over nothing. Yeah. You know.

50:54 to the person, it's a big thing that's happening, whether it's perceived or real. Yeah. But in the friend's mind, like this isn't that big a deal, or it's all gonna be okay, chill out, relax. What can that friend say or do instead? So this is something my husband does. So Beautifully.

51:12 And I think it it was just intuitive for him, but maybe it's be it was since training. But In those like for example, when I was pacing around and then just randomly doing squats in front of them. He was sitting on one end of the couch. I go and sit on the other end of the couch. He moves closer to me. And he was just like

51:32 What happened? And I you know, I think number one, he entered it from Curiosity. It wasn't what's wrong. It wasn't J that was crazy. It was

51:44 What you know, what's what's happening right now. I go through this kind of If thing that happened from like I read this.

51:54 And then I started like it just ever I I the way I explained it was like everything felt so hot. I felt like I was just getting so hot. That's how I describe it to my husband. And then I just started getting at like and he's like, You were pacing around and I like I didn't even realize I was pacing around. I knew I got up. Um definitely knew I was doing squats. And then I was like, yeah, I tried to like kind of calm things down because I was feeling really restless.

52:18 Um, and then I went back and read the email and I realized it was a family emergency. Um And so then That neutral kind of I'm just sitting and supporting you, letting you regulate your nervous system real time. Cause I think for a lot of people who are dealing with the spirit of rejection or criticism.

52:35 Especially if it's in the context of that person that you're receiving it from If they storm off. Or if they tell you to calm down, you feel even more unheard, you feel even more rejected.

52:48 Sometimes him just. sitting there, being with me, knowing like I can I it it immediately Regulates my nervous system. I think it's a powerful thing when someone can do that. And I think it's

53:03 In general, I would say it's hard for Most men that I've known. to learn that skill, to be able to sit peacefully When something is chaotically happening, which seems like nothing happened and you're overreacting, right? This is the seeming situation for a lot of people.

53:20 And if men haven't learned the skill of emotional regulation themselves, which most men haven't learned that yet. Fair They can't handle someone else. What it seems like a freak out around them. Yeah. If they don't know how to navigate it. So it's hard for them. So this is the challenge, like when I'm not saying you know

53:40 Some men aren't able to do this, but There then and then there's challenges in relationship breakdowns. when the woman doesn't feel seen or heard and the man feels like well you're just acting crazy or whatever the terminology is. And that's a challenge. That's why I think when both individuals where all individuals can learn emotional regulation.

53:58 Hopefully it's Less heated. by one person and the other person has the skill to be able to meet them and see them and and hear them and hold that space. But that just takes very present people who are actively trying to improve themselves. I'm gonna teach it in the schools.

54:15 Like I d like g give me something, man. Like th this is w these are things that I think really would benefit. Like I think everybody could uh benefit from emotional literacy. Yes. Like you know. But I think like if you start integrating like The way you experience emotions is neurological. The way you talk about emotions, the way like you just I feel like this world specifically. People are so careless with that component of it.

54:42 They are. They are. Yeah. What is something you wish you knew? When you were growing up that you now know now.

54:50 The emotional regulation apart. Like if I had if I had understood That The Emotional side. of things would so directly impact my ability.

55:02 to be productive and move forward. in a pathway. I would have spent that time. Instead of shoving down my emotions or compartmentalizing them or

55:13 'Cause I felt like that was my default. Like any time I felt something big, I'd be like Not right now. Go away. And I and it would show up later in the weirdest kind of way. So I I just never figured it out and it was truly until

55:27 I was like Oh, these two things are connected. that I felt like This deserves me going into and learning how to manage things and my life

55:36 has exponentially improved since then and it's made me A better parent, it's made me a better partner. It's made me a better doctor. It's made me a better person. because of that emotional regulation. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

55:49 How can someone who feels like they're overly sensitive turn that into a strength? Number one, by recognizing that it's neurological. Like this isn't a quirk. This isn't your personality. It's not something that if you're born with it, you're Like you just you are This is something the brain is just so Incredible.

56:08 That we have this capacity and this agency to rewire our brains. I think that's so It makes it makes psychiatry feel so hopeful. And so I think that Mm If you feel yes, I get overwhelmed all the time, this is really hard for me, and it's It's difficult for me to navigate through life because I feel like I'm constantly responding to these triggers.

56:31 I think it is possible to kind of move on from these things to learn your patterns, to learn what your triggers are, to learn how to manage them in real time. And you said this previously, and I loved how you phrased it, is You still want to feel things, you just have to navigate it.

56:48 And I think that's what's the takeaway is. It's it's giving yourself And trusting yourself enough. to be able to navigate without feeling like I'm always gonna be sucked under. А за пара кис. What's your biggest fear over the next

57:04 Ten to fifteen years for them. Based around what's happening in society and like the overwhelmed that a lot of youth are feeling and things like that. I have so many fears. I don't know if I can get The one that I most recently was Thinking about and it

57:20 kept me up like three days ago. Is thinking about like How increasingly digital our world has gotten. And how isolated we all are. Like we we're all kind of operating like

57:33 Yeah, I uh what what triggered this is I walked into Um uh coffee shop and I was waiting for my order. And I looked around. Literally every single person sitting on their phone.

57:45 Sometimes there were two people sitting at to eat with each other. They're both on their phones. And I'm guilty of that at times. I'm checking my email and trying to multitask, but That's the world that we kind of are in. right now where everybody is so

58:00 in their own universe that it makes me think about like what's What's ten years down the line gonna be? Yeah. As a parent though, and as a doctor How do you ensure that your kids have this emotional regulation at an early age.

58:14 I think it's a very important thing. Some of it is honestly. In our house. I think because I've been figuring this out in real time. I've also made it a point.

58:25 to talk it out loud. So when I'm feeling big things, and especially with my dad where it was like I I really can't explain my way around it. They're saying it. Like I don't We just have to talk about it. Talking about those kind of emotional moments and letting them in on H how can we make this better? How can we and having honest discussions, I think One of the

58:47 most wonderful things that came out of that. Is that It really made me less. afraid and it made them less afraid of emotion. 'Cause like I it you know, I could not stuff this down.

59:00 And so And they were seeing that. So it's like how do we navigate this kind of as a family and we're talking about it and we're talking about emotion. And I don't remember ever doing that as a kid with my parents or talking about emotions. No. When something challenging would happen in the family or I mean maybe intermittently, but not like

59:19 Not like This is where sadness is coming from in the brain. This is like when you feel this way. What's the difference between Like feeling sad and feeling scared and you know, things like that. We're we're really talking about emotion a lot more.

59:34 Um And like you know, if we are Uh if we see something on TV, like my husband watched the Goonies with them the other day and I was like, all right, great.

59:45 But like talking to them about like okay, look at this. What do you think they were feeling at that spot? So just like talking about an Integrating emotion into the conversation. Yeah. I think that's powerful. Yeah, I do too. So like if you don't

59:58 Talk about You know, what is it called gentle parenting or something where it's like maybe there's too much Emotion every day long talking about it, but I think having those moments where you talk about your feelings or your emotions at different times, I think help kids realize it's not like

1:00:15 Something to stuff and you can't have emotion. Yeah. Um and I think there's an extreme the other side where you're talking about it all day long, every day. It's too much like how are you feeling? And tell me more and you know, I think it was maybe too much. I haven't gotten to that point yet'cause they're still young. They can't talk. Yeah, if they can't talk yet. I feel like with gentle parenting and my mom's a training parenting, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we talk about this all the time and I feel like

1:00:43 I I mean in my in my brain, I had thought as a parent, like my Pinterest version of myself was that I would be a gentle parent. I'm not at all. Um But I think that sometimes It's it's a fine line between emotionally validating and and kind of letting the child to figure out, but also giving that firmness and structure. 'Cause I think kids really need that. Yeah. Boundaries. You need boundaries and you need like

1:01:07 U the kid can't navigate the and because then you get your whole slew of other things. going on. Like it's really difficult for them to handle disappointment later. It's really difficult for them to understand how to be Yeah, how to be resilient. If someone doesn't have the ability to handle rejection, What type of life will they live?

1:01:27 I don't know, there'll be a a psychiatrist on social media, I guess. No, I I feel like Rejection is just such a normal part of the human experience. And it a lot of times rejection is just redirection, right? It's it it kind of pushes you into a different Pathway.

1:01:45 Um I think what's important. But if you never learned how to navigate and handle rejection, small or big. What happens to your body, to your life. I I mean I think you get consumed by it. Like a lot of times Sometimes you see rejection, um

1:02:02 And in people trying to avoid that or potentially um Deal with it in a different capacity. You see a lot of compensation behaviour, so you see a lot of perfectionism, you see a lot of people pleasing, you see a lot of different pathways that Yes, initially may

1:02:20 feel advantageous. This is people aren't criticizing me. I am always top of my game, I'm getting validating comments. This is great. But like in terms of sustainability, what is that doing to the quality of your life? What is that doing over time? To you. Are

1:02:36 normal one day and everyone's like, are you sick? Like what's happening to you? And so I think it's it's just a balance of Trying to understand yourself because if you never really get on top of how to navigate rejection, how to navigate criticism.

1:02:54 You're going to find other maladaptive ways to do it. Yeah, and I think also If you never learn how to do it. you may never go after what you want because you're afraid of the rejection happening. So you never totally go for the career you want or launch the project you want or do you know go for the relationship you want because you're afraid of

1:03:13 the potential rejection that may or may not happen. Yes. And how to navigate the feeling of not being good enough. If and when that happens. And and just like anticipating that acute pain. I think it's so hard. I've had many patients who come into me And

1:03:30 You know, you you're talking about just their overall history, you're talking about medical stuff going on, you're talking about psychiatric stuff. then you just break into like kind of socially what's uh what's happening in your life, what's your life structure like. And they talk about Within relationships.

1:03:47 How That's a thing that they really, really want. I I I s my parents have had a 35 year relationship. They're so happy. I want that, I want kids someday, I want all of these things. But I can't get past that initial point. Or if we get into a conflict, it gets so hard and I back away. And so it's It's difficult and I feel like in my twenties

1:04:09 You know, I I tell my husband like I've never been broken up with. Because I would leave. I like I think we get a little hard on. Wow. So never never broke up with you. You broke up with them.

1:04:21 Or you left. I it would just be like this is scary. I'm out of here. And I and I would use the excuse of like I'm in medical school. I don't like busy. I'm too busy. I'm too busy. And so it would be me running away from that. And I feel like my husband kind of snuck past the guard on that one. Because we were long distance.

1:04:40 So I didn't have I wasn't constantly reading his tone or his body language. We had, you know, we were communicating Be a text and phone call and all the stuff and it would just It felt so Easy and comforting and by the time We were in the same spot.

1:04:56 Did you try to run at one point were you like, uh, it's too much conflict. He's pretty easy to be around. He's peaceful. He sounds like Hey, what's going on? Why are you feeling this way? What's a Joy. That's amazing. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's good, you got lucky. He had two older sisters and I think they just like beat it into him. Yeah.

1:05:14 Mm-hmm. I have two older sisters as well. Okay. I was too sensitive and also emotionally like, Hey, what's going on? You know, it's like Yeah. You can tell. Yeah. That's interesting. So there was not enough conflict for you to feel like I'm out.

1:05:28 Once you got close. No. Believe me, there was plenty of conflict, but it was like you're out, though. At one point we did. break up, but it wasn't conflict on his and our part. I think it was Did you end it?

1:05:42 Oh, so good. You still haven't been broken up with, yeah. I did. But I think that that was like from a cultural perspective, we couldn't figure out how to blend those two. See a white guy? Yeah. Oh wow. Um And so I was like I don't and like my family it I mean it just like historically has had arranged marriages.

1:06:01 This this was like so out of the norm. What do you mean you have love? Yeah, what is this? You're allowed to love someone? It's crazy because My parents were so in love. They were truly meant for each other. And so w I had this like expectation like

1:06:17 That's what it's gonna be. There's no And then you know It just it it blossomed into this wonderful relationship. And then I was like, wait, but that's not what we're supposed to do. I'm I'm not supposed to do that. My family doesn't want that and and then we had to Well why waste your time with someone if you weren't supposed to do that? I don't know.

1:06:35 Ha ha I don't know. It it happened. Everyone goes through the phase and then they're like all right. He was so handsome. Well, there you go. There you go. So I mean it's it's like giving that opportunity ten out of ten times I'm gonna take that opportunity. But But your fear of either rejection from your family or society or the culture was like, Oh, I'm not doing it the way it's supposed to be. And so part of you were afraid of that rejection feeling. I don't want to let down my parents. I don't want to

1:07:03 And and um since that time it's been like such a beautiful blending and everything has been great. But that initial period I I think it was too scary. How long were you together for before that breakup? Like it. Three years. Wow.

1:07:20 So didn't you know though, going into it, like this isn't gonna last if the fear of rejection, I'm gonna back out eventually because it's not an arranged marriage. Okay, can I tell you though? Because it was such a cute story that I was like, it's fate. It clearly this has to work like We we I we ended up seeing each other. And I saw him from like across the restaurant and I was like

1:07:40 Awesome. And so like I went and immediately talked to him. And he had been sent. from across the street because that bartender across the street was like go and talk to that girl, you'll like her. And then later I found out. That my best friend's parents had been trying to set us up on a blind date for two years. And I kept saying, like, no, I don't want it. I don't like just show me a picture. And they wouldn't. And I was like,

1:08:00 The guy's gotta be a dog. Uh. And so I was just like there's so many. But then you had the fear after three years that like oh we can't do this. It goes against I think it became so real because we're like, Well, what do we do here? Because I'm ending school. Like I like we're we have been together, we love each other so much.

1:08:20 Do we get it? Married do we Cut like, do we cut ties? Like this is such a transitional spot. And then I was just like too scary, too much. And like at that point, I was just like, My parents were just had such a hard time with it that I was like, I can't yes. For three years they had a hard time with it.

1:08:40 Oh, they didn't know for the first part. Oh wow. Wow. So the first couple of years I didn't know. I mean So you're also afraid you're also afraid of the rejection from your parents that you weren't even telling them. Yeah. For a couple years. Yeah. Long distance.

1:08:54 Wow. So you had a fear around the rejection from them as well. Big time, because I I knew my expectation. What my expectation was is that you finish your educational kind of background and then you go into this next season of life. And at that point your parents know you so well. They find you a partner that you you and you date them for a while if you like'em. you get married to that person if you don't like'em.

1:09:18 You try again, but it's someone that Your family has bedded and they know the family and they know everything about them and it's like it it's like it's not even like just your parents, it's like Maybe Yeah, you have like the weigh-in from all these people. of like I think that's gonna be a good match.

1:09:35 So I just kind of assumed that was my trajectory. And so I was like when we got to this point where I'm like, Oh God, I like this I've Fell in love with this Beautiful, beautiful. person and mind. Emotionally involved, beautiful, kind. And like Can I say no to him? Emily I mean

1:09:54 Oh my god. I just And I swear when I hear when I hear stories like this where people are watching or listening like you found a dream man And the other way would be like, What are you doing? You know, it's like how could you say no to this? It's insane like Louis. You lay eyes on this man. Even I would be attracted. Yes. It's impos like he will get stopped in public and I'm like, I'm right here. It's but

1:10:20 It is one of those things where I was so Terrified. Of What does this mean? What does this mean for my relationship with my family? What does this mean? I cannot I have to let this go.

1:10:34 And so I think that was Hard. And then You know, So how did you get back together then? How did you overcome the fear of rejection from your whole Community. Yeah. Your parents, your family, your sténon family, everyone judging you, making you wrong for making this choice. How did you overcome that fear? Now keep in mind.

1:10:54 That even though all of this was kinda happening. I truly understood Even even as this was happening in real time, and he understood too, which was incredible. But this is so culturally driven. This wasn't This wasn't

1:11:10 that they hated him. This wasn't that they didn't trust me. It although I had a terrible track record. So like They this was This is what we do culturally. Your mom and I are so happy. We want that happiness for you. So After a month of us.

1:11:26 And I told David I'm like We can't talk'cause it'll break my heart. You can't do that. This man. Calls me. I was in a call room in Phoenix. Um and I was on call, so I

1:11:35 pick up the phone and I was like Yeah, full not a call. Calls me and you say. I will wait as long as it takes. If you have to and I will move on when you get married. I was like, Holy cow. I can't pass that up. Holy cow. So what

1:11:50 So then I was like, All right, then let's do this. Let's do it and so then That next day I was like This is what's happening to my family. Wow. And it was a rejection. It wasn't it was a cultural clash and they were like This can't work. Like we this this isn't Like he doesn't come from the same cultural background. How are you gonna raise kids together?

1:12:10 Like it's gonna be a blend there's gonna be too many barriers. We're so scared about this process. Wow. And it was difficult because For a while they weren't even Like the two parties weren't even interacting with each other because my parents were like, just

1:12:26 Make this go away. Like we'll figure it out. And then We got all the way until you know, we're we're getting married and we're doing all these things. It

1:12:39 It it was really after Kids. Where it was just like everything kinda clicked into place. And then my parents were like Oh I got it. And it it was just like that fear of

1:12:50 Me Like not following cultural things. They could see then in in their own way and their own conclusions. It This is such a Loving supportive person.

1:13:05 Hmm. Truly like Cradles. my whole life makes it so easy. Wow. And so I mean once they saw that, and once they saw him as a father, once they saw him as it just like everything. And towards the end of my dad's life,

1:13:23 Mom died of brain cancer, and so h new this process. He was there like every second tending to my dad. Oh. And I know. You should. He's great. How long you guys been married now?

1:13:38 We just had our tenure in holy cow. Yeah. Two kids, ten years married. And you haven't run away. No.

1:13:46 I don't think I'm going to, I'm tired. So it's and so it's like you've shown that like, hey It doesn't have to be this cultural way to be the only way. Also. Yeah. Even though they rejected it or were not fans of it and pushed it away for a long time, it took time. For you guys to face that together, but it seems like a beautiful love story. It was it's my favorite love story. Wow. But to be honest, I think that the cultural kind of expectation of an arranged marriage.

1:14:14 Really good for someone who's scared of projection. Wait, this is already this is already set for me. But isn't it part of A human being's Experience to have to overcome that fear of rejection rather than saying, All right, just take care of it for me.

1:14:30 And I'm gonna stay a kid forever because I'm gonna let my parents always do things for me instead of have the courage. to face potential rejection. I I don't necessarily think having an arranged marriage Like I I think there's so many people Who do that and are

1:14:45 Perfectly evolves in their they're Wait. For me myself. If I had gone down that road. It was simply because I would be

1:14:56 too scared to step out of that cultural lane. Yeah. And it was truly because he was so wonderful that I was able to. And it's like w wonderful in a way that like most people would have If there is a family that's like, We don't want you. Yes. It's a guy's a saint.

1:15:15 That's great. Uh, Sasha, I gotta get to the end here. I've got a couple final questions for you before I ask them, I want people to check out your book. Too sensitive, rejection, resilience, and the science of feeling deeply. Yeah. I wish I had this book when I was a teenager. It would have helped me a lot. Um, there's a question everyone a I ask everyone at the end called the three truths. Okay. Hypothetical scenario.

1:15:35 You get to live as long as you want on this earth, but it's the last day for you. in the future. And you get to create and experience life on your terms. All your dreams come true. You write tons of best selling books. It all comes through to you. Yeah.

1:15:51 But on the last day. You have to take all your work with you and no one in this world has access to your content. Anymore. But you get to leave behind three truths. And from everything you've learned in life, everything you've learned in your work, family, relationships.

1:16:06 You get to leave behind three truths, three lessons you would leave with the world. What would those three truths be for you? Okay. The first one. R But the first one is

1:16:23 Don't be scared of your emotions. Like leaning to them. I think that's a that's a really important one that for me Even uh sometimes I'd be scared by the highs I would feel by something because I'm like, it's gonna go away. So just like be able to feel them, be able to process them.

1:16:40 That's wine. The other truth is I think There is nothing more precious. the time with loved ones. Mm-hmm. I just feel so strongly about that and I feel Like it it takes

1:16:56 Like if you're lucky enough. to have those relationships where you can continue to cultivate and grow them and spend that time and energy. Um with that quality time. There's nothing better than that. And the third.

1:17:11 Truth. Is to lead With kindness. Even when The world expects you not to.

1:17:23 'Cause I think the world is a hard place and I think you just need to infuse more of what you want to see. Mm-hmm. That's beautiful. I want to acknowledge you, Sasha, for the journey you've been on. I know it's not been easy from the marriage stuff to your dad passing and all the things you've had to face in your practice. Um And people need this work more now than ever. So I acknowledge four

1:17:46 putting this book out there for sharing your content online and for having the courage to face rejection yourself. as a great example for other people as well. So I acknowledge you for that. Um my final question, Sasha, what's your definition of greatness? Greatness is truly

1:18:03 understanding and being able to work with your brain. Because I think that that's the same. In In us. And it's just a matter of understanding how your brain works and how to unlock.

1:18:14 That potential. Yeah. Shaw thanks for being here. Appreciate it. Course. Any time. Amazing. Powerful.

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