The happiness and pain of product management | Noam Lovinsky (Grammarly, Facebook, YouTube, Thumbtack)

0:00 You worked at so many great companies at YouTube when you joined, my understanding is YouTube was losing a lot of money. There were many times where Google leadership reconsidered the acquisition and should we like sell YouTube, if you can believe it or not. At thumbtack, it looks like you went from one to negative one and then back to one. I remember in a board meeting the new model really started show legs and one of the board members, Brian Schreyer at Sequoia, said it was the prettiest smile graph that he had ever seen. When you were at Facebook, you built what is called the new product experimentation team trying to create a startup within a startup. You're thinking on a different time horizon. If you're a large organization and you do some performance management process twice a year. In your zero to one incubator, you've already killed it. It's the wrong incentive. As the chief product officer Grammarly, I'm curious what word you most often misspell. Ha ha ha. The

0:47 T E D E H Today my guest is Noam Levinsky. Noam is currently chief product officer at Ramalie. Previously he was an early PM at YouTube, where he spent five years leading the creator product experience, and then the broader YouTube consumer product experience. He then went on to take on the chief product officer role at ThumbTech, which involved helping the company reignite growth. After a downturn caused by some changes Google made in SEO.

1:16 He then went on to Facebook, where he created the new product experimentation team, whose charter was to incubate big new ideas protected from the larger Facebook org. Noum has such a unique set of experiences, taking products from zero to one. From negative one to one. From one to a hundred. And even starting his own companies.

1:36 He's never really been on a podcast before and he rarely ever tweets or posts anything online. Which we actually talk about. In our conversation, we walk through the lessons that he's learned through his amazing career at YouTube, Facebook, ThumbTech, and at Grammarly. We talk about when it makes sense to kill your project at a company, when it makes sense to ask to be layered at a company. Why you should be keeping a nose out for which products matter most at a business, and to find those products, why you need to diversify your growth channels at your business, why you should be finding work that is gonna most stretch you to help you advance in your career.

2:11 Bunch of advice for creating space for innovation within a large company, and so much more, Noam is such a gem and I'm really excited to share his wisdom with you. If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow this podcast on your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes and it helps the podcast tremendously. With that, I bring you Noam Levinsky, after a short word from our sponsors. This episode is brought to you by Whimsical, the iterative product workspace.

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4:01 join thousands of global companies that use Banta to automate evidence collection, unify risk management, and streamline security reviews. Get one thousand dollars off Vanta when you go to vanta.com slash Lenny. That's V A N T A dot com slash Lenny. No, um thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

4:25 Thanks for having me, Lenny. It's absolutely my pleasure. I've heard so many great things about you from so many people. I think you're friends with a lot of guests that have been on this podcast. And something that I find really interesting about you and really respect about you Is that you've worked at so many great companies And you've done so many.

4:42 big things in your career. But You barely ever tweet. You don't have a newsletter. I don't see many things on LinkedIn.

4:50 I don't think you've even been on a podcast before. I think the only evidence I can find of that you exist is uh you have this YouTube channel that's just like you go karting and kids and people wishing you a happy birthday. Oh gosh. I sh I should I should go go monitor that. I forgot about that. Uh yeah you might go Find it now. Yeah, yeah, that's funny. Yeah, you know, it's funny, I I I I think about that a lot. Like am I am I doing something wrong? Should I be putting more effort in that? I mean, it's funny that you mentioned newsletter. Like I I spend a lot of time with the Substack team, who's been a very active advisor there. Uh that team is fantastic, by the way. And I think about am I am I doing something Wrong.

5:27 in my career by not doing that. But Just I mean, just to be honest, it's just not it's not doesn't come gen like authentically to me, it doesn't come naturally to me. I get really focused on the thing that I am working on and get really deep in the thing that I am working on and I have a A hard time kind of

5:44 multitasking a lot outside of that, to be totally honest. And the way that I kind of get to know the the industry and and and um you know other teams and whatnot is Just through working with people. I'm not like um um a very big networker. I'm not saying that there's that there's anything wrong with that. I wish I were better at that. Um I get to know people by um doing work with them, by by helping them. Um and it doesn't doesn't necessarily scale in the same way that that Twitter does, but it's

6:14 It served me well so far and it's more kind of authentic and uh it's it's what comes more natural to me. And so that's that's how I do it. So like I'm doing a lot of coffees. I'm like, you know, meeting people that way. I'm not doing a lot of uh tweeting or or writing of newsletters. Maybe maybe one day, but That's that's not me today. So I think this is an awesome example of you can be incredibly successful as a product manager and as anyone in tech. Not

6:38 Investing time posting online and it I I'm gonna incriminate myself here, but I feel like The advice that we share with people is The best People are not

6:46 Spending time tweeting and Talking online. sharing on LinkedIn. They're just doing the work. They don't have time for that sort of thing. And I think you're a great example of that. Is there anything along those lines that you share with folks that are just like, Hey, should I be investing time here? I think everyone can chart their own path and has a way that is sort of authentic to them and leans on their strengths. Uh what what I often uh coach people is

7:07 Like do what you like. you're you're generally gonna be a lot better at the things that like really fill you up, that really get you excited. And like life is short. There's like so many things to be doing out there. We're so lucky, like the number of uh interesting waves of technology that I've experienced. It just it makes me feel like it's gonna keep happening for a long time. We're very fortunate to be born in the time that we are and have the opportunities that we are. So Why

7:33 you know, spend your time doing something that doesn't feel good because you think that it might, you know, lead to, you know, some some success where if you lean on what's authentic to you and what is you know mak makes you happy, chances are you're gonna be One of the best people at those things. I love that advice. And I think it's so important. I think there's a lot of pressure on people too. I need to do this, I need to do that. Yeah, we need a

7:55 Share content to be successful. This comes up a lot in this podcast that the more you could just stick close to what gives you energy. And what you enjoy doing oftentimes that leads to things you wouldn't expect in a lot of success. Speaking of that.

8:08 Looking at your career arc. I noticed a really interesting pattern and a really diverse set of experiences. So just kind of talking through places you've been. At Facebook you worked on zero to one stuff. At YouTube.

8:22 The way I see it is you almost went from z from negative one to one. And Thumbtack. It looks like you went from one to negative one. And then back to one. So it's like a really unique turnaround story. And then with Grammarly it feels like it's like I don't know, one or I don't know.

8:37 Five. to a hundred or wherever you end up taking it. So I thought it'd be fun to Talk through each of these experiences because they're such unique approaches or such unique experiences.

8:47 And see what lessons and wisdom we can extract from your journey. Sounds great. Yeah. Okay. Sweet. So I'm thinking

8:54 Reverse chronologically, we start with YouTube. Which The way I see it is it's kinda negative one to one. When you join, my understanding is U two was losing a lot of money. When you left they were not losing money, and I was actually just looking

9:06 They're valued apparently at two hundred billion dollars today, YouTube as a business. So I know you haven't been there for a while, but great great work. What um Lessons did you take away from that journey? What stories come to mind from that part of your career that might be helpful to people? Maybe first to start with kinda like why h hop around these these experiences. I I always tell people I feel like I'm an Icy trapped in a manager's body sometimes, like

9:30 Like fundamentally I I like to build. That's why I I do this. I like to I like to make things. And so sometimes the the more fun way to make things is to start something and sometimes the the better way to to make things in the situation that I'm in is to try to you know, um uh support teams and and lead through teams. Um and so Uh, you know, I joined YouTube through through an acquisition of a company I started and um in in the in the beginning

9:57 what I was doing there is just, you know, rebuilding that product um on on Google on Google infrastructure and for for YouTube YouTube customers. And maybe the the the first lesson was actually to Look around. at what the the rest of the team was doing. And be really like honest and open about the priority, the relative priority of the thing that you're working on.

10:21 even if you know it might lead to, you know, your project getting canceled. So One of the things that I remember doing really on is actually like talking to the leadership team and being like, I don't think we should be putting fifty engineers on this project. Like looking at the rest of the roadmap and the rest of the priority. um or the rest of the priorities, excuse me. I I I think the this team would would likely be better served elsewhere, even though that was likely negotiating my way out of a job and like month three. I don't know. I just I I kind of felt like that was the the right thing for for the team and and and for the business. And and then that started a very interesting journey. Um

11:01 Because uh, you know, from there Basically, you know, the leadership is like You're right. You know, we're gonna wind that down and and and uh build some of those features into the existing product. And now you, you come and lead this this focus area we're calling the creator focus area. So I went from basically rebuilding the product that our startup had built. to um leading one of the three

11:25 Focus areas at YouTube. There was the viewer team, the creator team, and the advertiser team. And Hunter Walk who's amazing, was leading the viewer team, and Shashir Marotra, who's also very amazing, was leading the uh advertising team. What a Linline community. And then there there was me and I was like, um, you know, I I'm I was sort of like, you know twenty nine year old startup y guy working with these guys who were were awesome and and YouTube in general was was an and continues to be an incredible team. Um, and so that I think that was like a first like really good lesson that in in the right organizations, even in in large organizations.

12:04 Advocate for like what's best for the team. Advocate for what's best for the organization, even if that means that it puts you at a you know particular, you know, difficult moment. If it is a healthy team that uh rewards those sorts of decisions and actions, like thing good things will happen. If it's not It's that's good to know too. You know. And that's good to like know no early. Um so that's That's one one thing that that comes to mind. Maybe maybe one other I would say

12:34 Like atypical um you know, uh career choice that I that I made uh shortly thereafter. Is then when I was when I was put in that in that um uh in that uh role. Um, you know, I really struggled in that role. I was reporting to the CEO at the time, a guy named Saur Kamangar, who's also awesome, Google's sixth employee, and um just learned a ton of from him, like an incredible strategic thinker. But he was asking me questions that I I felt like they were from a different planet. Like I I was like I d I I didn't know what what that what they meant. And he just thought

13:10 Yeah. different in a different way, a different level, a different scale. And that's still something that I was learning. Eventually I f I figured it out. But I was I was really struggling in that moment. And I had a really good relationship uh with both Hunter and Shashir, and they really helped me through that. And eventually I I I went to Salar and said, you know, hey I think I should actually report to Hunter. Like I think this would work better.

13:34 if you know we kind of combined the organizations this way and then we we we um you know divided and conquered this way. And again Like very atypical. No one has ever come to me in my career and said, I would like you to layer me, you know, in this in this in this other in this other person. But you know, in that moment I was just like, This is how I will do better work. This is how I will get better support. I will be kind of like happier and more productive. And it will be better for the team. And you know what? Like I

14:04 For me anyway. I was right. And we we made that change and Hunter was a fantastic manager and support at YouTube. I like learned a ton. uh grew a lot. And then eventually when uh when he moved on, you know, Shashir took over the the organization and then I moved into the into the viewer part of the organization, which is where I spent, you know, uh the the rest of my time there, which was leading and supporting the the viewer

14:29 um PM team at YouTube. These stories are amazing. It connects to your point that you're kind of a I see in inner child I see where you keep trying to kill your Your career by accident. Like now let's kill this project I'm working on. I'm gonna demote myself a little bit.

14:44 But Clearly It's worked out. Is there anything that you saw that gave you that confidence that This is actually gonna be okay.

14:51 Because again, people don't normally think this is how you get ahead in your career is you kill your Team and you Yeah. I think having a broader view

15:02 of the company's strategy having an instinct for like what we should be doing and why. And how I might prioritize all of these investments. Um, if I were given the opportunity that

15:15 I think like internalizing that and understanding that and then trying to align Whatever is under your influence, you know, kind of towards that um that that that overall goal is very helpful. uh and and made me feel like I'm pretty confident this is going to be okay because it will lead to better results for the organization given what we're trying to do. And so

15:37 As long as I'm Trying to push decisions or actions that actually lead to better results. If it's a healthy culture and organization, I should be okay. And I think that the the other thing is just

15:50 Just over the years, I you know I got Extremely lucky. The The first job that I got out of school was an incredible

15:59 group of people. And it gave me A nose for talent. It gave me a nose for like what Like great.

16:08 feels like and and what like a high functioning team feels like. And it's hard to Like kind of Like know that without like experiencing that. And so in in the in the moment second, YouTube was also one of those teams, like Grammarly's one of those teams, uh, Thumbtack was one of those teams, being able to sniff that out when you're trying to kind of choose the The next the next team is

16:30 is uh uh is is very important. But I think that's another thing that gave me confidence. Like I I learned you know, these people well enough. um, you know, hunter, Shashir, et cetera, to have that kind of the instinct that the right thing will happen. Like this will this will be um, you know, better for for me and the and the broader team. Got it. So the key there is just you have to trust that the team around you is

16:52 Is good enough. That you're not gonna be Pushed off into a corner. I think you made a really profound point here that a lot of people don't get about the job of a product leader and a product manager. That

17:04 A big part of your job is to think about what is best from the for the business. And work backwards from that. Not necessarily What's the best thing for the user is the highest priority. not necessarily what's the best thing for my team and how do I hit the goals that I'm obsessed with. It's

17:19 What is gonna be best for the business broadly and then make decisions there. Is there anything more you can say there about just how powerful that is as a way of thinking about prioritization and decisions as a product manager. Yeah, it's a it's a great question. I mean I I think

17:33 Ideally. You know Things that are best for the customer. also there's high overlap with that with things that are best for the business, but not not always, right? Um uh and I think like figuring out some some principles um that help kind of guide those sorts of conflicts.

17:50 Can be really Really helpful. Like at Thumbtack we had Principles. About which sides of the marketplace.

17:58 We wanted to serve. in in which order. uh and kind of when we served them to it was Customers first. Pro's second.

18:08 And then thumbtack last. And that's a that's actually the first two Saying thumbtack last is like the easy thing to say. Actually doing it in action, I think is is a very different thing. But that that first one of like Should we, you know, especially when you're uh you're starting a marketplace, as you know well, Lenny, like supply is so critical, like the many marketplaces live and die by the quality and liquidity and sub and some and supply. And so why would you, you know, focus on customers first in the thumbtack perspective and and supply is are the pros, the people that that you hire. Um well you know we we always just felt that

18:43 what the pros need from us as more customers. what the pros need from us is like high quality customers. Um, and so if we really try to you know, make a great customer experience that attracts more customers, helps them find the right pros, provides the highest quality customers, then that will therefore be better for the pros. And so that's how we should we should prioritize them. So it's that's and and if we do those things right, Then the business will benefit, right? And so doing things like

19:09 Um raising prices because we think it's good for the business, even though it causes liquidity issues in the marketplace, might be a little, you know, a a little bit of a local maxima, right? Uh locally optimizing rather than that rather than globally optimizing. So I think sometimes in these in these sorts of questions trying to establish some set of guiding principles um that that help navigate some of these more you know, ambiguous or or throwing throwing questions can be really helpful.

19:38 I wanna circle back to this first point you made. And experience you had. Convincing people that your first project Shouldn't be something you work on? How long do you stick with something that isn't going well and then decide, Okay, let's convince people this is something I should

19:51 move on from versus like you don't want to give up on a project. You mean quickly, right? You want to Give it a shot. I mean, look, I I don't know that it's a that it's a perfect answer, but I think the reality is is that But

20:01 Kills. Most projects most early companies Is is stamina. And I think that you, you know, um uh we all need to work on, you know, kind of being more resilient about kind of like

20:15 I I remember at Thumbtack at Marco, the CEO, we used to say that it feels like we're running uphill and chewing glass. Um and you kind of like That's right. Like we we wanna do that. Um that's good that's good for us. We're take take our medicine. Um so you wanna you wanna practice that sort of resiliency, but ultimately I think that what what starts to happen is you you start to lose the stamina. And you're just not bringing your best self. to the uh to the to the situation. And so many of these things that are like

20:44 so high ambiguity where you you don't know exactly what to build, or you don't know exactly you're not getting the signal you need or the feedback you need to be able to hone it in and know that you're that you're um uh doing something well. They require like just a an an ungodly level of faith and stamina. Uh and so I that's that's sort of like what what I look to. When you see like a team

21:06 that is motivated, that is building something like they they're really excited about. I mean, just like the inertia, the the quality, like just everything. It's just it's like a whole different game where when you see a team that's sort of like down and out and they've you know, they've they've they've really they've been hitting their head against the wall for a long time. Sometimes they just need like a change of scene, a change change of pace, um, and they get to like a much better situation. So My my honest answer is is yeah, it's it's the

21:36 When do you run out of steam is usually the question. Uh and I think that happens. usually before you you know, like in the startup case, a lot of times before you run out of money or, you know, these other things. We've talked about Thumbtack a couple of times now, so let's talk about that.

21:51 I love this description of running up hill of dream glass. Uh My understanding is when you join things were going well. And then things started to go much less well. And then you help turn things around.

22:02 Talk about that part of your journey and what you learned from that time. Yeah, sure. Um again, really fantastic team and and and really strong founders. Um Yeah, that that company was just on the on the bleeding edge of things like SEO and and and growing by SEO. And it was like one of the one of the best uh organizations at driving growth through through that channel. But I think a thing that I learned.

22:25 uh really early, which Lenny, uh, you know, with your background you probably know as well. SEO is a sort of like a live by the sword, die by the sword, you know, channel of of growth. Um, and I think that uh one channel growth company is like always a no no Um And so that that's a little bit of kind of what we what we had at at Thumbtack. So Um, it was funny'cause I remember when I joined and you know, Marco and I had a had an agreement where it's like, Okay, I'm gonna take you know, do my, you know, several three months of like onboarding, listening to our new new leader, inheriting a team, you know, I've always gotten advice like that's that's that's what you should do. And you know, Marco being uh uh an entrepreneur and and a hard running founder is like yeah, yeah, sure, sure. And then like

23:07 a month in, it's like, all right, we gotta run like twenty twenty four planning, go. Or not twenty twenty four, sorry, at the time it was and and yeah, like in in that in the uh early days, like when I was there, ThumbTe was seeing triple digit growth. Um Then we had um some uh you know a f a couple SEO hits that got us down to double digit growth. And then like, you know, not not too long after that we were actually for the first time uh in the company's history seeing negative year year over year growth and Google is just like really coming down on our category um as we were by the way, trying to rebuild

23:44 the whole product and and uh change you know, the monetization model and and everything in between. So it's a really uh a tough, tough moment of, you know, uh how much do we kind of spend to reinforce the the old model while we're sort of building the new model, kind of changing the you know, the the engine while the while the plane Um is flying. And i I think in I remember in a board meeting, once we kind of like turn turn that around and over time and and also the new model really started show legs and and really started to work. Um one of the board members, Brian Schreyer at Sequoia, said it was the prettiest smile graft that he had ever ever seen. And and it was a really, you know, obviously a really

24:23 proud, proud moment there. But I think that the The thing that I I took away from that, um, which I I tell PMs um quite a bit um is You know, growth masks all problems. Like you don't really have an I think true understanding of like what is working well and what is not working well when you have like incredible growth. YouTube was a great example of that. And a thumbtack.

24:46 It had incredible growth for quite some time, but it was essentially burning through a lot of demand. It was just dropping a lot of demand on the floor because there wasn't sufficient liquidity on the supply side to really meet that demand. And the team knew and was trying to like work on that on that problem, but You know it wasn't as like urgent or high priority'cause you're having like

25:07 triple digit growth. Like what's wrong what's wrong? Like everything's going great. Right. And then the moment growth starts to slow or or certainly when growth starts to be negative. All of a sudden the tenor in the organization really changes. And you start like looking at things very differently and trying to understand like what's actually going on. And so I think it's actually a very healthy thing for businesses to go through, you know, as they kind of turn into long term sustainable businesses to have those sorts of moments because I think otherwise it's just really challenging to identify where the true issues are. And I think as a PM

25:44 You know, if you've only ever worked on things that grow. And you've never like felt the other side of that and how to kind of help turn that around with your team. I think you're you you lose a lot in your career if you don't experience that, you know. Um I'm like kind of naturally paranoid and and as I especially as I manage growth, I often look at things and ask myself, like, okay, what would I do right now if it went negative? You know, how would I prioritize things if it went negative? Like having gone through that experience

26:12 I just look at things at a in a different way of urgency. I look at things at uh you know different different levels of priority given Um you know. having having gone through that um that that experience. With the stumbtack story.

26:27 I think it's rare that A business gets The smile graph that you described, the prettiest smile graph that this board members ever see and I think that is rarely the case. Usually it doesn't come back up. Can you share what you did to help ThumbTe turn things around? I know it's like very particular to ThumbTe in the business, but just anything there that would be useful to people.

26:45 Sure. First of all, uh you know this this is this is very much the team. It's it's not it's not uh just just things that that that I did. But um so I mean first was, you know turning on multiple channels of growth, um, you know, up up until then. Um TemToc had kind of tried and and stopped. paid channels, um, you know, other organic channels, like, you know, r referrals, um, you know All of all of the all of the typical things. And so

27:12 We just went back to first principles on a lot of that and also just kind of We formed um a team uh around that. Um uh and and and got basically got an amazing uh team together. One of them, um, Whitney Steele is is running marketing at the script now. Another one, David Schein is uh running uh product at at him's

27:33 But basically w went back to first principles on some of those growth channels and experiment our way to much, much better um results. And um, you know, uh I think that one of the things that we were doing incorrectly at Thumbtack is Thumbtack is actually a marketplace that is actually made up of thousands of marketplaces, right? Like DJs in Philadelphia is one marketplace. You know, DJs in, you know, uh Atlanta is another marketplace, contractors in Sonoma is another marketplace. And then Thumbtack is is obviously the container uh of all of those marketplaces. And I think we were just I'm bifurcating

28:10 are targeting and our our our growth efforts a little too narrowly, assuming we had to sort of, you know, grow in that way market by market, rather than, you know, targeting more broadly, uh providing sort of uh the the more aggregate data to to Google and others and then you know optimizing from from there the fact that we already had you know, really good showing in SEO and really good page ranking SEO helped to you know, bolster things like SEM, um and then eventually Facebook as well. But I think that the the the core issue, those those were kind of the the the growth the growth levers, but the the core issue with the Thumbtack product was that

28:49 Um, it was just a very high friction. Customer experience. That really like left customers waiting. So The way that

28:58 Somtack work basically was a customer would find them through through a search query. Um, you know, they would come in and they would answer a number of questions about the job they needed done, and then Thumbtack would say, Okay, great. We'll get back to you in 24 hours. And this is, you know, like a modern day experience, right? Um, and then what them Tac would do is they would they would take that job and they would federate it out to as many of the pros that might kind of like match the criteria. And then the pros would

29:26 Pay to quote to show up as a potential um you know provider for for that job. Now I don't want to take anything away from that team because That worked phenomenally well for for a really long time. And it's a actually it's a perfect case study in like just do the scrappy thing that works to grow. And and they and they did that did that very well. But the the stage and size of the business when I joined it had kind of like outgrown that and and the

29:52 And the team knew that. That's obviously A very high friction experience, right? Like the idea that the customer, they're super excited, they want to hire someone, and at that moment you'd be like, Cool. Talk to you soon. not the the best the best experience. And the fact that you're asking your supply To put up money.

30:09 To even show up. to customers in the first place, where what the customers want to see is the supply. Like tell me, tell me who I can hire. Also, like a lot of friction uh on on that side and and also in some cases some unfair revenue on that side because if if folks are, you know, paying to be seen and maybe they're looked at, but there's not really like high intent. then you're gonna start, they're not gonna get the customers they want. They're gonna be spending revenue. They're not gonna be getting revenue back. It turns into a like just a

30:38 Just a bad a bad loop, obviously. So the main thing we did is is to rebuild that whole loop change the modernization model. build a system where essentially Prose could provide instant quotes.

30:51 Like Lenny, I'm I'm sure like from Airbnb this is very familiar, the move from request to book to like inst instant booking. It was a very similar thing in a in a different kind of category of of service and supply, obviously. Um, but that shift and doing that shift across those thousands of marketplaces and then finding the right Friction point for monetization and when and what to charge people for and all of that all of that change. That is what really you know, at its core.

31:21 turn the the growth engine around at Thumbtack. And it's um it's just a real testament to those those founders that they kind of believed that, like, saw that and were willing to kind of like you know, uh run a pill and shoe glass to get to that point. Like I I don't know the details of the business anymore. And I and I if I did I wouldn't speak to it, but From what I hear, things are going well. So um I think that that that that served the company well.

31:45 Yeah. As you were talking about that, that's exactly Uh Experience R B B went through. actually led that effort at Airbnb. I took three years of my life. Oh my gosh, we should we should talk about that one day. Yeah. I've I've written about it here and there, but Honestly

32:00 very quietly is one of the biggest transformations Airbnb went through, shifting from I'm gonna go request a book. to basically every bookie now and Airbnb is instant. And that was a very difficult and painful. journey, but looking back, I don't think Air B would have made it, if not for that.

32:15 And Unlike Thumbtech, we did it w before things were starting to fall apart. Like we're like we And actually I was gonna say the lens that we used that I Find really helpful here is You should be asking yourself, if somebody was to come into our space and disrupt us and start now to become the new Airbnb, what would they do?

32:32 Yeah, totally. And it was obvious they'd be make it instant. Just that's the way it works. Yeah. Welcome to Airbnb. Disruptor. Yeah. And so yeah. Any product you work on that involves like bits and atoms is exponentially harder than than products that just involve bits. Um but it's amazing how

32:52 something as like seemingly simple as Make it instant. ends up being so incredibly deep and complicated. And especially on an existing business, like kind of making that transition while still growing is just very, very complicated. Like fantastic learning, I'm sure you had as well. Very difficult to change people's expectations and behavior. This could be its own podcast episode, just changing marketplaces into an instant experience.

33:14 I wanted to circle back real quick to the first Lesson you had there, which is Adding adding new channels. I think that's a really interesting takeaway here. So essentially ThumbTech was reliant on SEO. Google slash the sword as you described started changing things.

33:28 So traffic's job. Coming. And I think a cool lesson here is just if you're reliant on one Growth channel, which I think most companies actually are.

33:36 I think most companies have one main driver. I think a lesson here is potentially Before things start to fall apart, especially if you're SEO driven. start to explore more proactively paid referrals. Totally. I mean I think um

33:48 Maybe it's it's again, it's kinda like living through that. Now any time I like look at a product or look at a team, it's like one of the first things that pick perks up the paranoia of just like, Oh no, you you don't want to be in that in that situation. Let's figure out now. how you start to diversify'cause um you just never know, like you say, when when one of those might dry up. Imagine a place where you can find all your potential customers and get your message in front of them in a cost efficient way. If you're a B2B business, that place exists. And it's called LinkedIn.

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35:26 Terms and conditions apply. Is there anything else from your time at Thumbtack that stands out as a interesting lesson or takeaway that you bring with you. to the work you do now. I I I would s I would say this. I think especially um especially at the like leadership level, um

35:44 You know, in in the the the team that the team that reports the CEO, um That That group doesn't always have the opportunity to like do a lot of project work together, right? You've got your like you've your CFO, you you've you've got your head of you've got your head of sales, you've you got your your your product in your engineering and

36:03 There's just not as as often as sort of like natural ways for that work. the group to work together. Um and then when something happens like growth goes negative Um, that group is very important. And that group's ability to like tackle hard things together.

36:21 Is very important. And I think that One one important lesson from that is No one ha no one can be a bystander on product strategy. If you've got just because you've got product in your title doesn't mean you're the only one that that should be thinking about product strategy, certainly at that at that level. um certainly not an engineering like the CFO, the the head of people

36:41 Everyone. Needs to have a seat at the table. when it comes to product strategy, what the company's doing, and what they're gonna do to kind of, you know, grow out of the situation that that they're in. Because otherwise Like

36:54 in those in those hard times, if it's kinda it can kind of be like a, you know, what have you done for me lately sort of sort of a dynamic. And that's just not not uh the the right dynamic to uh to have on on that on that team. And I'm not saying that at Thumbtack we had the right dynamic, but I think it was a really important learning in that moment. you know, even if they didn't typically, you know, kind of get as involved in in things like product strategy and and and what we're building, how everyone had to be like all hands on deck and really thinking about those sorts of problems.'Cause the only way I think you can get a whole like company and team. you know, out of those situations that's by everyone getting involved and and doing their part and pulling on the levers that they have in their area in order to do that well. Um just just I don't think it can work in any other way.

37:38 So there's a lesson there, build a relationship with the leadership team. Before things start to go right. That y yes. Cer certainly that. But I think it's also incumbent for like, you know, people in our roles and you know, in in engineering roles.

37:54 Two bring strategy to that discussion, to that group. in a way that it is possible for everyone to engage and everyone to to internalize and understand what it means for their area and to even have a obviously a say in because they're on the leadership team at the end of the day. Like they should feel like their fingerprint is also on the on the company strategy. And as soon as it starts to feel like That's their world. That's our world. And I think that's true for for any of any of those any any of the functions. It's true for like what's happening in say in sales. It's true for what's happening in marketing. You know, as product managers, we naturally need to be that the connective tissue uh across all of that. But I think the whole leadership team at that level should feel um like connective tissue across all of those functions.

38:39 Okay. Let's transition to Facebook. And this is I think an example of zero to one. So when you're at Facebook you built what is called the new product experimentation team. I actually I actually thought it was called the new product experiment experience team, but I think it's new product experimentation team.

38:55 And my understanding is the idea there is Instead of Facebook having to buy the next Instagram and WhatsApp and all the things basically incubate startups within Facebook and a fabled concept. A startup within a startup. Create all these startups within a startup. And

39:10 As an outsider, it feels like it It was really fun for a while, but it hasn't let any amazing New businesses for Facebook, correct me if I'm wrong. I'm curious what that experience was like? What you took away from it, how it went, what you

39:25 Think about when you look back at that. Part of your journey. I was one of a few folks that kind of joined that that team early and help help um you know build build that team how it ended up and how it closed down. I I I don't I'm not familiar with'cause I I wasn't there. But I think in terms of was it a success or not. Because it didn't build the next Instagram.

39:45 I think is a little bit of the wrong uh bar to set for for for things like that. Um uh you know, to some to some extent it's like um you know, did did did the group win the lottery or not and let's judge their let's judge their success. Obvious I'm not I'm not saying that. um, you know, discovering something like Instagram is just like winning the lottery, but you you you get what I mean in terms of like the the rare the rarity um of those sorts of discoveries and those sorts of those sorts of products. Um I think that that the um that team was Very realistic.

40:17 about sort of the what I would say are be like the champagne level outcomes and or more like the, you know, kind of uh beer like nice dinner kind of like level level out. Yeah, the wine, yeah, thank you. That's a better analogy. Um um and uh I I think we we, you know, we we uh we we built knowing those um uh you know those those sorts of outcomes would also be be bene very beneficial to the organization. So like as as an example, you know, one of them is Um you know. At face at Facebook scale Doing things that

40:51 Don't scale. Or doing things that start out small was just a a muscle that was, you know, really hard to come by, right? It's it's like Any community product? that you build any kind of s like social where like there's community density that's important like early on.

41:09 Any product that you build that way, starting with a million users is really a really hard way to do that. And at at places like Facebook and Google, it's like it's hard to run an experiment. With a hundred people. It's it's not hard, it's impossible, right? Um uh and so This this idea that, you know

41:28 You would you would uh have to like get real small, um, that you would have to start very targeted, that you would have to start with things that like clearly don't scale and aren't, you know, kind of don't have a chance of being kind of big from from the get go. Is is really, really hard in an organization like that. And so

41:48 Creating that space. for NPE to be able to do that. To be able to help remind the organization what are the mechanisms we need to be able to build and learn that way. was very beneficial. Even simple things, you know, like at a at an organization

42:05 of Facebook size, maybe you experience this at Airbnb, like it is really hard for product managers, engineers and designers to talk directly with customers. It is like basically impossible. You're almost always like talking through some third party, some recruiting, you know, uh uh agency, you know, s like and and getting like reports and you're not always in the room and imagine like building a startup like a a product from day one and not being able to sit right next to your customer and being like, Show me how you do this.

42:39 Or show me how you do that. Um, you know, it's like It is inc it's incredible it's incredibly hard. You're you're looking for such Faint. Signal. The idea that you would try to get it through like

42:51 layers of indirection and and games of telephone is It is is crazy. But at that skill That's what you have to do,'cause there's there's all of these legal concerns and and many other realistic concerns about

43:04 what you can say to who and who you can talk to and what you can tell them about what you're doing and and all these things. So creating an environment where those sorts of constraints um were lifted and and were different was very beneficial, I think, to the the organization and and kind of started to shed a light on some of the things that were broken that make it hard.

43:26 to you kind of build zero to one in in those in those sorts of environments. I also think it was a a really fantastic um recruiting tool. Um, you know, it it it did build a really great um group group of folks, many of which have have left to go start, um, you know, interesting. um uh companies. But I I guess what I'm trying to say is I I th I think when you're an organizational leader Um and and Shrep was the the the org leader that was that was supporting MP at the time and and he's fantastic and really did a good job of of um you know firewalling

44:01 uh that that team. I think you you you're looking at a a set of objectives and and a number of ways that you might help the the company and and the and the organization. And even if you you set that kind of like that That light on the hill to be like Go find the next Instagram.

44:18 many of the things that you would do along the way to like find the next Instagram end up being very beneficial to the broader organization. Uh we saw a lot of that in PE That's really interesting perspective. There's a lot of other goals with something like this. It's not just find the next massive business. It's The way I I think you just what I'm getting from this is like shine almost a mirror on the organization. Like here's the things we can't do with the regular

44:42 business and we have to do something We have to set this up in order to try something totally new and radical. Recruiting tool, I think is interesting. There's actually a teammate Air B the way I described it was Uh, I don't know how many people know about Burning Man and how it works, but there's this trash fence around the side that catches all the trash so it doesn't go into the into the desert. And I feel like there's teams sometimes that are the trash fence of a company. Yeah. Or someone's about to leave and they're like, No, go work on this cool stuff right here in the fridge.

45:08 Right. Which is really interesting, but Yeah, but it' and still within the company and Maybe help with that, just keep people that are awesome at a slash. And and they're you're you're right that that the the team didn't kind of discover the the next Instagram. For what it's worth, um, you know, things like threads and ideas like threads were in that team all of the time. Um I think that if that team

45:30 um caught the uh wave of uh generative AI and and all of the opportunities and sort of like new technologies there. I think things could have also because those are certain moments where you like having small, like really motivated, dedicated teams that aren't thinking about anything mainline can lead to like faster discoveries. I think I think that that can that can also help. But there were a number of things that basically ended up becoming features in in other products and they were just easier, faster ways of validating and building building them because you didn't have the constraints of like Like the mainline product around the organization, right?

46:07 For someone that is thinking about Trying to create a startup within a startup. Something a lot of big companies are trying to do is they're Uh and a piece of advice or two. that you chair for helping this

46:19 Be effective. Maybe one is just the goal may not be build the next big business. There's these sub goals also. What comes to mind? God, there's there's so many. Um uh And and and Shrep did a really fantastic job of removing a lot of these constraints, but um uh so one is I would say think really hard about the incentive system. You know

46:40 Smart. Good people, you know. They Even if they're not. They don't they don't

46:45 Even if they're not trying to, they end up kind of gaming things towards the incentive system. And so think long and hard about that. So for instance, if you're a large organization and you do some performance management process like twice a year, and that's how you're gonna evaluate and incentivise people in your zero to one incubator, you've already killed it. Um, it's just like it's the wrong incentive, it's the wrong time frame. It creates adverse selection problems for the sort of people that you bring in. Um and so it's just It's hard in an existing organization to say We're gonna take all these company processes around even how we like level people and pay them and motivate them, and we're gonna throw them out the window for for this group, right? Um

47:27 How you build. the infrastructure you use. Um, this is something that that the N P team did did really well. Like everyone got a gotta cut to do their their their own thing from an infrastructure perspective. Just do what is best for the problem you're trying to solve in this moment, knowing that you're likely gonna throw away a lot of this code anyway. Like Being able to do that in an organization like Facebook or Google, if you ask anyone that works on those things, is really hard. And you know, it it takes

47:53 Someone like a shrep to be like, Nope. Like they're gonna get to do this, sorry. Um, uh and so I think that's that's really helpful. Um For what it's worth, one of the One of the organizations that that we talked to that I felt like was doing this in one of the best ways was Nike. And Nike has this uh you know incubation lab and they just

48:14 They just It's a completely different operating model. They recruit a completely different type of person, very different incentive system. And essentially like where they end up plugging them into Nike is that when they have something into the kind of the distribution, marketing, kind of growth like arms of of Nike, but for the product discovery process, They're doing their whole whole different thing. Once they've like find some fit. then kinda Nike comes in and goes boom, I'm gonna gonna help you explode explode your fit. But

48:44 I think that the number one thing I would think about would be the incentive system. And the adverse selection that That can cause. To me the most important element of the incentive system, and maybe I'm reading between the lines is You're basically competing against them starting their own thing and

49:01 having upside if things go super well feels really important versus I'm just gonna get a cool salary meta and work on this thing and That doesn't lead to the same experience, right? As a startup or like everything's on the line. Yeah, and and also what time horizons, right? Like um when you're when you're starting a company, you're not thinking like in the next six months I'm gonna get a promo and I'm gonna get a good rating and you know things are gonna go well. You're thinking on a different Excuse me, time horizon. And you're thinking about an an outsized uh impact or an outsized in incentive. And so I would I would think about that if you're starting things internally as well. Awesome.

49:35 Okay. Let's move to the final bucket. Grammarly, which is where you're at now. And the way I'm thinking about it is this kind of like a One to rocket ship or I don't know, ten.

49:47 It's further along than one, but That's where you're at now. To me Grammarly is interesting because it's one of the very few successful B to C subscription businesses. There's almost none. There's like Duolingo.

49:59 Grammarly, and I know you're doing B to B also. But there's so few, there's so many dead bodies trying to Build a business on top of consumer subscription. And so I'm just curious, what's the current state of Grammarly? How are things going?

50:12 Uh, what do you think has been the key to it being successful all this time and and continuing to grow? And what lessons have you learned? I know you're You just joined relatively recently, but anything you've taken away from that. journey so far? We know we don't we don't talk about it often, um, but uh you know, Grammarly is a much uh

50:31 bigger company from a revenue perspective than I think people realize. Uh, you know, the the the company has been around for fifteen years and was profitable from day one. um and continues to be quite profitable. Um uh so it's a very very healthy business that is, um you know, much larger than than um folks might realize. And that is actually quite intentional because the company was trying not to be noticed for a long time, like very intentionally, the fact that You know, you would have

51:01 know grammar and spell checking in Google Docs or grammar and spell checking in uh you know Word, people would often write off the company that like, how is that how is that a business, how is that a feature, like these products already have it. And you know, the that was very convenient for for Grammarly uh because they could kind of navigate between these giants in tech and grow a very uh a very phenomenal business um kind of on this on this use case that people had kind of Written off. now, you know, come the advent of LLMs and it's no longer a use case that people are are writing off and sort of the the dream of the of the founders that machines can assist us in communication in this way, um, that you know, they've had for fifteen years. I feel like now the whole industry is like, well, this is obviously how we're gonna communicate and, you know, machines are going to do all these things for us. And

51:53 And Grammarly's now sort of in the center of that hurricane. And again, I think it's a similar thing where it's like, well, you know, well, there's there's chat GPT, there's, you know, Microsoft Copilot. Like why how is how is Grammarly uh going going to have a chat? Um but yet um you know things still seem uh seem like there's the the future the future is bright. Um and so To your question. I think to um

52:18 What has made it work? Um You know, I I I've I've only been here for for ten months, so please kinda take this with a grain of salt. But but my instinct is that People really love Grammarly because of how it works and and where it works. And and what I mean by how it works is Grammarly is one of the few products where you just install it and it makes you better.

52:38 Like you don't have to configure it. You don't have to manipulate it. You don't have to like change anything about like what you're doing. You carry on and across all of your applications, across all of your tabs. You'll start getting pushed.

52:51 assistance to you in the right moment. You could ignore it. If you want, no big deal. But it takes a very, very small amount of effort. to tap on one of those things, get some value and keep going. And I think that a product that is like That

53:07 Easy. To use that easy to extract value from, but then also that prevalent. Like How many different text boxes do you write in in a d given day? I mean it's a you

53:19 is Not uh less than ten, it is tens or potentially hundreds, right? And so it is it is everywhere. Um and it is very, very low effort to get real value from it. And then the the the where we work is is is what I said. You don't have to change anything about your workflow. Um, you know, Grammarly meets you where you are and and you get you get value from it. Doing that

53:42 Really well. at this level of quality for a user base of this scale. Essentially it's like I you know, uh And

53:51 Huge AI achievement m masquerading as like a U little UX Innovation, right? Um, um, but that like experience, that like that UX that sort of like brings AI to the masses is obviously you know, served grammarly. really well. Um I think those are some of the strengths they're gonna continue to lean on. To now provide

54:13 you know, a diff very different type. of assistance and um you know value that we can because of where the technology has moved. The other thing I've heard a lot about Grammarly and Yuri was on the podcast and who led Growth for a long time at Grammarly. It's just how scrappy the business has been and the founders have been from the beginning, the fact that they've been profitable.

54:33 threads through all of the successful consumer subscription companies is super scrappy not raising money for a long time. Is there anything there you that you found to be really Interesting or helpful for other folks that are maybe building the space. When you're

54:47 a a team that kind of like starts out of Ukraine and you're not thinking that there's any any chance that you're gonna like raise money and and why would you do that? I mean It really yeah, back to our previous conversation of what happens when like growth goes negative, you know, really forces you to focus on the important things. And so like many of the early engineers who are still here because the company has done done uh so well over the years

55:14 You know, they They they think in like How is this work gonna translate into revenue? Right. Like they they they think about sort of like the impact on the business from, you know, even kind of like you know very deep you know, technical work that that they're doing because I think they were kind of brought up in this culture where the business

55:33 doesn't really invest ahead. of its it's profitability, right? Because it was a bootstrap business from from day one. So that enforces like everyone to think about their projects and their prioritization and how is like what they're doing over the next two months gonna actually turn into more, you know, revenue and keep the company growing and and sustaining. So I think that That

55:55 Culture is is prevalent and helped. help Grammarly get to um, you know, where it is. Now, I just want to be really honest that you know, in moments that were like in in that were in like today. That can also be detrimental, right? Because like the the business gets to a certain size, you start getting to kind of like law of large numbers, you need to start thinking about, you know, are there other products? Are there other use cases? Are there other channels of growth? You know, uh how do you kind of invest ahead

56:23 of um some of that some of that growth and start to start to diversify because you know at the scale and size that we are and and aspire to be we're gonna have to do many more things and and service many more different types of customers. And as you mentioned, we're gonna have to pull off the motion of B to C to B, kind of get that that that product led sales motion um going. Um so all of those things are happening and thankfully the business is you know as strong as it is, where we can invest ahead now in those things while still maintaining profitability in like a really strong business. That's amazing that they're still Team members and maybe I think you said engineers.

57:01 From the beginning, twelve years later. I think that says a lot about the business. And before we started recording they're based in Ukraine and you were saying that They're like going to zooms. They're g there's bombs going off. They have to go into like bomb shelters. And then jump on a meeting. It's incredible that team continues to operate in

57:19 The business continues to do this well, in spite of all that. Yeah, the the the team in Ukraine at Grammarly is um I mean it's it's it's something else. It's a it's a really uh fantastic team. And when you when you when you speak to many of them, um I think actually the the work

57:37 provides, you know, sometimes a very useful distraction. But you know, they they obviously feel a lot of pride in the in the business. They they built they built a lot of this business. There there there aren't yet you know, many businesses of of this size that, you know, kind of come from come from Ukraine. And and yeah, I think that the uh you know that that team is uh is is incredible and continues to to deliver a ton of impact to the company even in the circumstances.

58:05 that they're in and I know for the for the founders, you know, a lot of Like why they want. you know, grammarly to uh succeed and and be the generational company that it can be is is for Ukraine. Um, and especially in this moment. And it's it's awesome to see how how that motivates them. And you know, 15 years on the same project is is, you know, not nothing. That's like that's some serious resilience. Um, and so I think even in in moments like that, using them as

58:32 A way to motivate And and, you know, strive for something greater, I think is says a lot about the founders and the team in Ukraine. Absolutely. Hopefully there's a happy resolution soon there. I don't know if you know this, I was actually born in Ukraine. Oh wow.

58:48 I know Dessa, but I don't want to talk about that much, but it's true. And I just realized we both have a skis in our last Lavinsky and Rchitsky. So for what it's worth, my dad was born in Ukraine. He was he's from Kiev. Um my mom was from Lithuania. So um yeah, also have some some Ukrainian background here. Alright, this is our Ukrainian episode. Yes. Let me zoom out a little bit and Get to the final couple of questions.

59:12 So Thinking about your career broadly. I'm just curious if there's any general advice you share with people to

59:21 Help them more successful career. Anything that is generally fine is really important to do well. Or mistakes they make. Just and this is like a big broad question, but anything come to mind like here's something

59:34 Should really try to do more of or less of. Look, when you're when you're thinking about like career opportunities, um and uh what job to take. It's really, really hard to sniff out. really well and of high degree of certainty.

59:50 Like Success. I think that like having a good nose for people and the sort of like people that that you can be successful with is is something that you can develop.

1:00:00 What what I found is I always try to prioritize putting myself in uh positions that are gonna cause a lot of growth and learning and growth and learning can be very painful. Um and you kinda like Gotta like

1:00:14 Be okay with that and and go into that because on the other side of that pain. um I think is is is the promised land. And that's just serve me really well is I can't necessarily predict you know, with high degree of certainty that this thing's gonna hit. Um, you know, but I

1:00:30 I can get a sense of the people around me and I certainly can um uh find situations That are gonna stretch me. uh that are gonna force me to do things that I haven't done where I'm gonna grow and learn significantly and over sort of the arc of my career, I feel like that's

1:00:47 that served me well. So that's usually what I tell people is is focus on focus on that if you can. I love that advice. I've used this quote a number of times on this podcast, but something I always come back to is This line. The cape you fear contains the treasure you seek. Yeah. I'm curious if there's

1:01:04 Something you have found about when that's when the pain is too much, when that you shouldn't pursue that. A lot of people get into these places where they're just their mental health gets hit, their physical health is hit. They're just like doing work. They should not that's like too much. Is there anything there that you find it's just like, Okay, maybe this is too much a discomfort?

1:01:24 I mean, so I th I think about a couple of things. I think I think in any situation, you should be able to lean on like kind of one or two things that like you've r you're really strong at. That can kind of be the foundation You know, that that kind of keeps you going while you learn the other things. So just be be wary of

1:01:42 situations that are like Too net new. There should be One or two and kind of important things uh uh as part of that job the going into where you're like

1:01:51 I I I got this. I I I know how to do this portion of it, right? So um like as an example If you've kind of never inherited um a very a very large team and you're gonna work through like how how that how that works. But

1:02:07 the product area that you're working on is one you're very familiar with. Um, the what's what's necessary to be good in that product, whether it's like really good sense of design or really good sense of um you know analytical thinking, you know, you know, recommendation systems like what what have you. There there should be like a couple of those things where like I I got this. These things are gonna be a stretch, but these things I feel like I've I've got a handle on how to do this. I can always get better.

1:02:33 But I I I feel like they're in my in my wheelhouse. And I think that tends to allow you to sort of like balance the pain with the you know with the the the areas that you already know and kind of um you know manage through in a more in a more balanced and healthy way. Reminds me of that chart I think from flow of you want it to be challenging, but not too challenging. And that's where you end up being uh most successful.

1:02:59 Is there anything else, Noam, you want to share or leave listeners with before we get to our very exciting lightning round? Yeah, I just I just I just think that uh uh you know maybe going back to our where we first started, uh, Lenny, like Work on the things that that make you happy, um, that that fill you up. Life is short. We're all very lucky to be in this moment, you know, uh there's no reason to to spend time on things that uh don't don't give you give you energy. There's so much to do out there. I think that's the

1:03:27 the main thing I would I would focus on. Amazing. And even though there will be things that Soc that you have to do. Yeah. I think it's important to try to find as much of that as you can.

1:03:37 Right,'cause there's Not everyone can just like nah I'm not gonna do this org thing, I'm just gonna Go on a walk. But I think that's such an important point. And We talked about this actually a bunch on recent podcasts of just doing this energy audit where you pay attention to what gives you energy and what doesn't.

1:03:52 And try to do more and more. Totally. We'll link to that again. With that we reached our very exciting lightning round. Are you ready? Yeah, I'm ready. First question, what are two or three books that you've recommended most?

1:04:04 To other people. You know, I'm gonna cheat on this one and I'm only gonna give you one. I'm only gonna give you one because I don't I don't want I don't wanna uh clad with any other. I recommend Build uh by Tony Fidel. And um other than it being a good book, one of the main reasons I recommend it is that my wife wrote it. Um so she wrote it together with uh with Tony and I got to got to see

1:04:25 uh that experience. Um and she's a fantastic writer and Tony has uh a lot to learn from. So I I recommend that book. I think that the The part of it that was particularly inspiring to me to hear Like even more of the details that are in the book is just

1:04:41 You know, how many times uh he he met failure before he, you know, made discoveries that are now driving like you know, so many of the things that we do. It's just like a good reminder to like keep at it. um and do the thing that really gives you that energy'cause eventually um, you know, you you can make that that incredible discovery. Next question. Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show that you've really enjoyed?

1:05:05 I really I really like for all mankind. Um seen that on Apple Apple TV and then um I just finished the the last season of Fargo, um and every single season of that of that series I think is fantastic. Amazing. For all mankind, though, last season not as amazing as uh consensus. That I agree with. Yeah. But worth watching. Yeah. Next question. Do you have a favorite interview question that you like to ask candidates?

1:05:31 You know, I generally like interview questions that allow us to kind of like do some work together. So I'm a little bit less on the behavioral, tell me about a time when sort of stuff. And and more on the like like let's work a product problem together like and it could be anything from like let's design an alarm clock for children or Um, you know, lately I've been using one of like, you know, given, you know, where technology is at, like if we're to rebuild email, like how might we do that? I just feel like kinda

1:05:58 getting into it and getting into the details and really kind of watching each other part you know, kind of exercise our craft. um, I think is is really important. And I have a I have a whole podcast one time if you're ready about how most people don't know how to do leadership recruiting. And I feel like as I've, you know, uh uh advanced in my career, like the the interviews for some reason like get easier and actually like evaluate less about like, you know, who I am as a as a product leader and whatnot. Um

1:06:26 Uh, but yeah, th those are the sorts of inter interview questions that I I typically like. Amazing. Is there a favorite product you've recently discovered? That you really love. Uh it's not recent, um, but um I was a very early user of Arc.

1:06:40 And I really Both. Arc. Your uh your window right now is inside Arc. I also love Arc. We had Josh on the podcast. Nice. Uh just just watching the onboarding experience of Arc alone as a product person is worth time. I I love I love the the the animation when you download something. I mean just like all of the all of the little things. And and if Josh is listening, we would like to get Grammarly to work better with Arc. Um, so please please hit me up because I think there's a few things that the Arc browser is doing that make it hard to get Grambling to work either on the client or in the browser.

1:07:09 Two more questions. Do you have a favorite life motto? That you often Repeat to yourself, share with friends or family, either in work or in life, that you find useful. Gosh, for those that know me, this is gonna share so much of my personality. I I think the first thing that comes to mind is like we are meant to struggle. I just feel like

1:07:27 Through struggle is, you know. How we get better, how good things happen, how bonds form. And so I don't I don't Shy away from from that kind of life experience.

1:07:38 Uh I'm gonna guess that you're Jewish. I'm also Jewish. That feels like a very Jewish thing to say. I love it. How would you guess, Slenny? It's like literally written on my face. Yeah. Uh yeah. Perfect. Yeah. Last question, as the Chief Product Officer Grammarly. I'm curious what word you most often misspell.

1:07:57 The T E D E H T E H Well I find I misspell everywhere. I am a terrible spell. I'm thankful for my Oh, sorry, go ahead. I was saying I have a product for you that can help with your spelling if you want. Yeah. I'm an active grammar user. Not only that, I use every product you worked on, I realized. Oh nice. Obviously Meta and mostly Instagram of the meta product. Yeah.

1:08:21 And uh obviously Grammarly now and YouTube. I have a YouTube channel. Check it out. Subscribe and follow. Uh and Thumbtack. My wife is a big thumbtack user. We found many probes on Thumbtack from all kinds of Parts of the world.

1:08:35 No I'm Thank you so much for being here. Two final questions. Where can folks find you online if they want to reach out? And how can listeners be useful to you? Yeah, I'm pretty much no ML everywhere online. So Twitter is probably the easiest to uh my DMs are my DMs are open. And then um how people can be useful to me is Please use Grammarly, provide any feedback that you might have. And honestly, if I can be helpful in almost any way, like feel free to reach out. I often um, you know, will take those conversations and build those connections and um that is always very helpful for me as well. No thank you again so much for being here. Of course. Have a good one, buddy.

1:09:09 Bye, everyone. Bye. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lenny's podcast.com. See you in the next episode.

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