Land your dream job in today’s market: negotiation tactics, job search councils, and more | Phyl Terry (Author, “Never Search Alone”)

0:00 When you're looking for a job. You need a spear. and not an act. What happens when we're building a product? Same thing, right? We want this product to be for everyone. But we've learned with product market fit that doesn't work. We need a narrow, clear focus. How did you realize this is a really powerful method versus the way people normally look for jobs? While it's hard to figure out your candidate market fit, it's also a relief To know it's not about you. So what I ask people to do is I ask them to think about what they want and what they don't want. Now, you might not think that that's a radical step, Letty, but most people don't do that. When they get laid off, they spray and pray. This is very much like a product person thinks about new product. There's no iron team. Well, there is an iron village. And the iron village is that when you start to interview And negotiate. You've got to be in charge. I want you to play to win, not not to lose. Is there anything else that you think might be helpful to people looking for jobs? If someone did this, it would blow my mind. I would hire them on the spot.

0:57 Today my guest is Phil Terry. Phil is the author of Never Search Alone. Which I've seen so many people reference as the most impactful thing they read for helping them find a job. Once you listen to this episode, you'll see why. Prior to this book, Phil was on the founding team of the first company that Amazon acquired back in the nineties.

1:14 And then was CEO of the pioneering product and customer experience consulting firm Creative Good for over fifteen years, where Phil and the team had companies like Apple, Facebook, Microsoft. And hundreds of other companies as customers. Phil also co-authored Customers Included, has written articles for the Harvard Business Review, and has delivered more than 500 keynotes to companies like Apple and Microsoft. This episode is for anyone struggling to find a job or unhappy in the job that they are in. I promise you the time you put into listening this episode will help you find a job that you love. If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes and helps the podcast tremendously.

1:56 Ви тай брингю. Phil? Terry. Phil, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast. Oh, what a pleasure. I'm such a fan of yours, Lenny.

2:08 I'm thrilled to be here. Thank you. I'm a huge fan of yours and I think uh by the end of this I'll be an even bigger fan of yours. What I'm hoping that we can do in our chat today is to help people who are struggling to find a job. And especially struggling to find a job they love. Actually find that job.

2:24 With actual tips that they can use today in this week. How does that how does that feel to you? That's great. We have some practical time tested stuff that I've developed over the last twenty five years with leaders in Silicon Valley. Especially in the product community, we've really brought a product lens to reinventing the job searching. This is a perfect van diagram of of topics then. Yes. Um

2:45 There's a lot of ways I can approach this. I wanna start with a question about something that you run, something that you created, something that has had a lot of impact on a lot of people. Job search councils. What is a job search council? It's a support group.

2:57 Of six to eight job seekers. Right, so product people and but it it's not just for product people, but the product community really owns this. It comes out of the product community. And what they do is they commit to being with each other, to supporting each other. Go through the process of looking for a job.

3:14 And figuring out some of the and and I lay out a methodology, how to figure out your candidate market fit. One of the big concepts in the book. As well as how to play To win, not not to lose. You know what I mean?

3:27 People are scared in the job search. Th here's the thing, Lenny, that people really have a hard time really have a hard time believing. Everyone. I mean everyone. And you know, I work with some of the most senior people in Silicon Valley. I'm talking about CEOs of public companies. I'm talking about chief product officers, VPs of product that

3:46 Great brands, everyone, no matter who they are, Linny. feels insecure and anxious in the jobs. And if you do it alone, it magnifies it. So with job search councils there there's this great hack. I didn't invent this. It's baked into human psychology. If you put anxious people together.

4:04 And ask them to be open and vulnerable and to ask for help. And we'll come back to asking for help. It actually flips the anxiety. And the fear into hope. In a motivation.

4:16 into accountability and confidence. It's like what you know. It's fantastic. Yeah. My mother taught me this. We can talk about her at some point, but

4:25 It's you know, it's really powerful. That's amazing. And your whole book is called Never Search Alone, so the whole Premise of how you recommend people Look for jobs is to look for jobs with other people.

4:37 You mentioned maybe it's your mom, maybe something else. How did you How did you realize this is a really powerful method versus the way people normally look for jobs? Yeah. So there's you know, I've I've worked at I I said it my first council More than four years ago, I set up the first CEO council for internet CEOs in the mid nineties.

4:55 And then I've run product and CEO council since. But it goes all the way back to my mom. Nineteen sixty. Lenny. 1960.

5:05 Right. So we're talking eight you know, what is that, sixty four years ago? In the San Fernando Valley, my mom was a newly minted elementary school teacher and she put together a council of teachers. That group met for fifty years. Five oh. Until the year she died.

5:21 And They work together to ask for help and support each other in their careers. And you know, Lenny, people say to me, like, does this do this never search one method work in a tough job market? And I'll tell you, it's it comes out of tough job markets. Absolutely, yes.

5:37 Starting with my mom. So in nineteen seventy four my dad in nineteen seventy six he left. And it was just me and my mom and my sister. He had insisted that she stop teaching. So she lost her tenure and everything.

5:51 Her candidate market fit was terrible. But she had her counsel. And and it was the mid seventies and Lenny. You probably can't imagine how hard it was for a single middle aged woman with kids

6:04 Looking for a job in Los Angeles in the mid seventies. It was terrible. But she had her support group. And they held her hand. And to the job she could get, guess what? She had to be an entry level teacher again.

6:16 After having been a senior teacher coaching and advising. It was really tough. So that that had a big impact on me. Mm-hmm. And then when the dot com bubble burst, I was running creative good.

6:26 And suddenly there was a depression. And suddenly I'm helping hundreds of people try to figure out their job search. So it's it's it's It's been going for a number of years, you know. But it goes back to my mom. I dedicate the book to her and the community we've built.

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8:41 By uncovering AI powered product opportunities at scale. Visit Sprig.com slash Lenny to book a demo and get a$75 gift card. That's sprig.com slash Lenny. There's a lot of elements that you mentioned that we're gonna dig into so Product. uh job candidate fit, playing to win.

9:02 You touched on a little bit idea of this of settling, figure out what to settle for. Your mom kind of took a job that's below what she was doing before. So I wanna chat about all these things. Yeah. A little bit more on these councils. What's the scale of these? So I I think it's gonna blow people's minds just how Many of these are happening in a head. We have launched more than two thousand of these, Lenny. Two thousand. And they're completely free.

9:21 Completely one hundred percent free. It's volunteer driven. We have hundreds of pages of tools. We've done a Slack community. We have a free matching program. You can sign up and we'll match you and put you in a council, then we'll give you training, live training. With it's just

9:36 There's so many volunteers. We have twenty thousand hours of volunteer work that's already been put into this line. Mm. And he said that it's free. I know these things aren't Free to run. Yeah. I saw somewhere that you mentioned that basically all your book sales and also just money, your own money you spent on running these councils. Talk about that for a little bit.

9:55 Yeah, all of the books actually two times the book sales are going into running this. Right. So we have twenty thousand hours of volunteer time, but you also have to pay for technology and you have to pay for certain kinds of support. You know, later, you know, we'll talk about this on we're always looking for more volunteers. And you know we

10:13 I have a process for people to apply if they're interested in being a part of the T. But yeah, I've I have I have dedicated this to my mom and and I'm giving everything to it. What's the general

10:26 structure. If someone's trying to think about how these things work, if they want to join these As we go through how did they work? Okay, so you apply at fill dot org, ph y l And it again is free. And we match you behind the scenes. Now when you apply, we ask First of all, are you in a job and looking or are you out of work?

10:47 Because we separate those two because they have different Cadences. If you're in a job and looking We call you a slow seeker'cause you have a full time job and you can't work as quick. If you're out of work and looking, we call you a fast seeker and we put you in different groups. Okay.

11:01 Fast seeker or slow seek. We also asked though, are you willing to be a moderator? Every council needs a moderator and every moderator is a job seeker who volunteers to do that. And if you and if you volunteer to moderate, first of all, you get matched faster. And secondly, you get more training and support.

11:18 It's n it's a little bit more work for a lot more benefit. And we've you know, we've gotten two thousand moderators, It's amazing. And we feel like we're just beginning. Okay, so that's you so you apply, you get matched.

11:31 And then you go through an orientation program? That we run live. Where we answer we tell you how this works and what to expect in your first meeting. And then there's a whole set of agendas. and materials and everything in the book as well as

11:45 We have a everyone gets a free workbook. Hundred page workbook. after they join the community. With all of the templates and guides and questions. And then you have your first the moderator pulls you together.

11:55 You work on Zoom or whatever. Technology, it's it's remote typically. And you do a first meeting, we call it meeting zero, where you where you where you're open and vulnerable. People share stories about their lives and who they are. Builds trust and get a sense of who people are.

12:10 And then you move into the process. You meet twice a week typically if you're in a fast seeker council and every two weeks if you're in a slow seeker. So that that's the start of the answer to that. Yeah.

12:22 Yeah, really helpful. And then you basically are in this council until you find a job, I imagine. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. Is there anything you can share around the impact you've seen? Like the reason I reached out to you to come on this podcast is I just started seeing people mentioning that they'd found a job and one of the and maybe the thing that helped them most was your book and being on one of these councils.

12:42 And I imagine there's a lot of stories you hear and a lot of numbers you see of just people succeeding going through. So is what can you share about just the impact you've seen? Well, I I posted on LinkedIn today that I was gonna be on your podcast. Yeah. I asked people if they wanted, you know, to share stories with me and I got over email and LinkedIn I've been flooded With stories.

13:03 from people who were in the process or people who did it. And I can sh if you like, I can pull up and share a few of those. That would be absolutely. Okay. Yeah, so Uh Justin Meets is a Chief Product Officer. Who's gone through the process and he posted on LinkedIn today.

13:21 He said as a product leader. I love How it has you apply the product process to your career. Right. So that This comes out of the product world, it's a product lens.

13:31 On the job search. And it's for everyone, but it really makes sense for product people. And he says, Not only does your JSC help bounce ideas and help your job search, they also help you keep going and accountable. When you're low on emotional energy. And I I talk about this in the book, Lenny.

13:48 I say Look, most people think like What's the most important thing to manage during your job search? They think, Well, maybe it's their resume or LinkedIn profile or their ability to network. you know, or candidate market fit, a concept I introduced, I think is really important. All those things are really important.

14:05 But the most important thing to manage. is your emotional balance. I talk about your emotional balance sheet. And for many job seekers, they have more liabilities than assets on their own balance sheets. They have more fear and anxiety, they feel demoralized, they have a hard time going. That's why these things are so important.

14:24 He also says, Hey, it's a journey and the more you embrace it, the more you learn about yourself. And he says and this is important, Lenny, and that It this is not You know, I don't have a magic wand that Especially in a down market today that magically gets a job. It's hard.

14:39 The job search and and he talks about it can be hard and humiliating at times. I know. This is why I wanna create this community, why we're doing this. We wanna give you a place where you can you know, really get the support when it's hard and humiliating. But the process will ultimately set you up for success if you follow it.

14:58 Yeah, this one woman who just started. She's a senior product leader in it. major financial institution and And she said, you know, it just from I she couldn't believe the level of support and openness.

15:10 And vulnerability. Yeah. And You know, we really emphasize people being open and vulnerable. And I've learned a lot about how to create that environment.

15:19 And it ties back to asking for help, which I know we'll talk about more at some point. But You know, when you create that, it's amazing what people can do together, Lenny. Amazing. Just to reinforce this point, people listening may be like

15:34 I don't Like I'm just gonna keep looking for a job, I'll use all this advice. I don't need a group. What's your best pitch again to help people See the value of doing this in a group and joining a council or starting a council. I I acknowledge that that's a reaction that some people have.

15:48 You know? That's totally valid. And this is unusual what we're doing here. You know? This is not how people look for a job. We're trying to disrupt the job search process.

15:59 We had this great Lenny had uh this is my quick story. We had a great interview with a a couple two of them were product leaders. Both they had met at Amazon. And then he got on to have great careers. They both got laid off. The woman

16:13 Join the job search council right away. She loved it. She raved about it. Who was also an engineer. Yeah, it was a little more introverted.

16:21 It's like uh you know, this isn't for me. And she said, No, listen, you I you you you won't He in finally read the book. It's like you know'cause the because it's kind of it's it it works for the product mine and for the engineering mine. Yeah. Oh it makes sense. I'll join a council, but I

16:38 It's not gonna I'm not gonna feel connected to people. I illegit but I'll do this'cause you asked me to. That he's sad for the interview. Yeah, it's we have it up on the site. He was like Oh my God, I couldn't believe it. You know, the level of trust we created right off the bat I've never experienced in my life and It it's really true, the accountability, the motivation, the ability to

16:57 To hang in there. And so I say to people, look Try it. And And you know, we have all these videos on our website with all these people talking. Go look at it. You know, if you want to read the book first and see if you think this makes sense.

17:13 Um But try it. You it it You will be shocked. In a positive way. Yeah.

17:20 You will discover how delightful it is. And how How we should you know, we live in a world where there's increasing loneliness, like There's so much research about this, you know, the Surgeon General's book, everybody talking about it and it's more Detrimental to our health and smoking cigarettes.

17:37 Yeah, bowling alone famously came out twenty five years ago. We live in a world. where people have have not experienced community. in in a in in in a powerful way. I don't mean message boards, I mean real community.

17:53 And I think you have a sense of this,'cause you you you do real committee. And that's and that's what we're talking about here. It's It's real community, but with some practical tools and techniques, which we'll talk about in What do you think? Is that a good

18:06 Is that a good response? I don't I don't need a job, but I I want to join one. You also just had a really beautiful way of describing these programs as a as a safety net for people. Yeah. Does that ring a bell? If we kinda go up to the thirty thousand foot level, like what are we doing here? What's our mission? We're building a private safety net. For all those who've been laid off or let go.

18:27 Look, the govern we're not gonna do what the government does with, you know, unemployment insurance. We're never gonna be able to do something like that. But the government's never gonna be able to innovate around how to actually look for a job. That's where we come in. Right. We're trying to build this and

18:42 Yeah, we talked about this earlier, Lenny. Creative destruction. is this economic concept that sits at the heart of capitalism. It's Creative destruction basically says under capitalism It's dynamic. New products and services displace or disrupt old products and services.

18:56 Companies and methods. It's why our economy has grown sixfold over the last hundred years. It's remarkable. It's why we have this amazing Multi trillion dollar economy.

19:07 But it comes with some negative Unintended consequences. Which is that people both in jobs and out of jobs they're they're anxious and cheerful. And they there's no program that addresses that. That's what we're going after here.

19:22 We're trying to be The solve for the unintended consequences of the thing that is so positive in many ways. the p and then we as product people love because we get to build new products and displace old products. And and I'll just say one more thing.

19:36 The reason you know this creative destruction works so well is if you compare our economy to Late Soviet Union's economy. They were a planned economy with no creative destruction. So there was no innovation and it eventually it just failed. It just

19:52 Collapse. It's remarkable. It's in a huge country. With a massive military and nuclear weapons, but they couldn't make their economy work. Why? Because they didn't have this element.

20:02 So it's something to celebrate. But as we celebrate it. We need we need to have something that addresses the negative unintended consequences. And I think it's our All of those

20:12 All of us who benefited from this, I think it's our duty to do something about it. That is beautiful. You're very good at this. Let's shift to talking about tactics. Let's talk about some of the things that you've shared. So you've mentioned things like candidate market fit, playing to win. Uh go wherever you want to go. Let's pick a few and then dive in. Can it market fit is probably the most important job search tactic in the book.

20:33 Aside from the job search council. And it may be the thing I'm known for. You know, when I die. They coined Canada Market Fay, you know. So

20:43 Here's the thing. And this is why this is so important in a down market. You know. When you're looking for a job, you're in a marketplace. With supply and demand.

20:55 You know, characteristics. So if there's a lot of supply Which there is right now in the tech world because there's been a lot of layoffs. The overall economy

21:05 There's been net job additions, Lenny, but those have been Primarily in healthcare and government? There have been net job losses. In tech. And we could talk about why that is, but that's the world that we're in.

21:17 So if let's say you're a director of product. Two years ago. When the economy was great in tech in the job market was great in tech. You could probably get a VP of product role. Okay.

21:28 What about today? Well today your candidate market fit's been pushed down. 'Cause there's a bunch of VPs of products who are gonna take a director role. Guess what? That means you might not be able to get the director role. You might need to get a senior manager role or whatever.

21:42 Now, the important thing about this is it's not a personal segment about you. It's the marketplace. And that's what so many people Yeah, today in their notes to me said that it was like such a relief for them. While it's hard to figure out your candidate market, it's also a relief.

21:57 But no, it's not about you. So what I ask people to do is I ask them to first and I the first radical step, I asked them to take is to think about what they want and what they don't want. Now, you might not think that that's a repetable step, Letty. But most people don't do that. When they get laid off, they spray and pray.

22:15 That's the typical Let me just Yeah, wait a minute, just take a moment. Oh, don't slow me down. I'm like I'm gonna slow you down to go fast. In fact, what our data shows is that the average job search in a job search council You know, from beginning to end.

22:30 It's three months. If you look at the national data for job search. It's three to six months. So we're at the very low end of the national average. So you know, this is not a slow down, you know, uh take two years, whatever.

22:45 No. N most people need to put food on the plate, right? So It's a slowdown at first. And we as product people should understand this. You wanna think about your strategy, you wanna understand the marketplace customer, the product market fit. You're not gonna just go.

22:59 Yeah. You're gonna iterate. First step What do you want and what don't you want? That's the Manukin two pager named after Alison Manukin. Who was a member of one of our product councils.

23:09 So we run product councils and general management CEO councils. For people in jobs. That's a paid program that companies pay for. It's out of that program helping those people that I develop this methodology that we're now as a community. Giving to the world.

23:24 Right. So Alison She was the GM at uh Intuit. Then she spun out. a division and ran it as CEO and she's now a professor at the Harvard Business School.

23:34 And about fifteen years ago She was in transition and we talked and She created and we created this this thing we call now the Manukein Two Pager. I told her how's I'm gonna make your day famous. That's my job I love wonderful. And um it's just just a simple thing. What do you like, what don't you like.

23:50 And you share it, you create it, and then you share your counsel. And here's something cool, Lenny. Like let's say you and I are at a job search council. You share yours and I share mine. Now you say a few things about what you don't like. I'm like Hot damn. I also don't like those. I forgot. I gotta add that. Or you say anything about what you like. Like, oh wow, no, that's really important to me and I left that out.

24:10 Yeah, so that's part of the shared learning environment. I'm asking you to do these, but with others. Or you're walking it through. Now once you have done that Manuka and two pager and it's a draft, you don't have to get it fine. Just an initi And not everyone knows exactly what they want, by the way. This is important. Especially younger people.

24:27 But sometimes make career people too. They're like So I don't I'm not asking you to make a final decision. No no. Th this we're gonna iterate. Okay. We're crowded people. We're gonna iterate. So we're going to take this Manuki and two page or this draft that we've shared with our council.

24:42 And we're gonna go out and do a listening tour. Because Guess what? In the job search, we're the product! Work. Our skills of experience.

24:51 That's the product that we're bringing to market. So we have to go see what the market wants. We don't know we have a sense of what we want, but what does the market want and what does some of our trusted Friends, what do they think about what I want and what I'm a fit? And what do they think I'm a fit for now? Given the market conditions that we have.

25:08 Right. I will tell you, people are terrified to do the listen to it. They're like I don't know what am I gonna hear from people? I asked him to ask a golden question, you know what?

25:18 If you were in my shoes. How would you approach this? I call that the golden question. It's such a creative question. It really opens the conversation. But they're thinking, Oh no, people are gonna tell me all this stuff. No, mostly people tell you this once in a while you get

25:32 A helpful piece of critique. Oh, you're You you make everything a priority, in which case nothing is, you know, and and you could work on that. Super helpful to know. We all have stuff to work on. But I will tell you, once people do the listening to

25:46 They're blown away. The love The people who are in jobs they love They love helping others if it's done well. Because guess what? They're also anxious themselves.

25:59 And they wanna give back. They wanna feel like, you know, they're supporting people. And That you actually end up And we're gonna talk about this, but when you ask someone for help, well, you've done your homework, you're thoughtful. They want to help you even more.

26:14 Right. They become invested in you. So the secret about the listening tour is that Not only are you getting sort of Market research customer feedback on your fit.

26:25 You're also creating A whole group of listening posts, people who are invested in your success. Just to clarify on that specific point to us listening to her, you write this Minuken Minuokan two pager. Which basically describes uh what you want, what you don't want, goals you have, what you hate.

26:44 Uh and listening to her is find colleagues, friends. people that are other say product managers and get their feedback on what you want, what you don't want, what you hate, what your Yeah and what and what they're seeing in the market. What they think you're fit for I see, got it. So it's like oh this is unrealistic. You're not gonna get the thing. That's right. Like looking for that. And we see both things, Lenny. So some people underestimate

27:06 you know, they're fit. Others overestimate it or don't recognize that changed market condition, right? The the other thing I'll say is that in the book I have three different kinds of structured listening to our conversations. One I call reverse exit interviews. This is with people you used to work with before, right? Go ask them, hey.

27:25 What what did I do well? What do you think my strengths are? What do you think I'm a fit for? Here's what I'm thinking. Do you think I accurately am. Projecting myself. The second is your broader network. You know, and that's where I ask you to do the golden question, if you were in my shoes. And then third is recruiters.

27:43 Now here here this is this is an important hack. Recruiters don't like Being barraged with Get me a job. They do like

27:54 Someone saying him. What do you think I'm a fit for? Asking their advice. And this is especially true if you Great.

28:03 built to relationship with a recruiter. So anyone listening to your podcast right now If you're in a job, I have a really important message for you. When that recruiter calls, pick up the phone, even if you don't want the job. Help them. Network with them, tell you know, introduce them to other people and build that relationship.

28:21 Because Whether you're you lose a job or whether you decide to start looking when you're in work, you want that relationship. Now, Lenny, there's a problem. Many people haven't done Okay. So part of what we're doing with the Never Search Alone community

28:36 is we're building a recruiter network. We're finding recruiters. Who are willing to in a protected way do a couple of conversations a month. Helping people think about their candidate market fit.

28:49 And if anyone listening to the show's a recruiter. Please come join us and and volunteer. We need more recruiters. I know many of you want to give back and you don't know how. You tell me this. Here's a way to get it.

29:01 Mm-hmm. Love that. Okay, and so the the uh intent of this is that you're trying to figure out Uh yeah. One, what does the market want? And how do I

29:11 be honest about what it wants because it may not be what you want may not exist right now. And then two help you refine your pitch and how you're approaching and who you're talking to. Is there anything else that comes out of doing this exercise? Cause I think people might be hearing this like nah so much work. I have enough work to do all these interviews. I reach out to people, I got oh

29:30 kids and family, like I have to write this two pager now and Listening to her What other benefits do you get out of this doing this exercise? You build those relationships. So you you now you turn people on as listening posts.

29:43 So you light up. Your network. In a way that you You know, if you just put if you just if you just send an email saying, I want a job or if you just go Hey d do you have a job for me? People don't know what to say.

29:54 But if you say, Hey If you're in my shoes, how would you approach this? And what do you think, you know, if you were me, you know, I should be looking for? And what are you seeing in the market? They love that. And now they're really thinking about

30:05 And if they see a job that might be a fit, they tell you about it. They tell you that. Yeah, and that and that gets to candidate Mark'cause at the end of this we're gonna We're gonna create a very simple narrow focus canon market fit statement at the end of the listening tour. So once you've now done this listening to her. Now you need to create a focus candidate market fit. And this is tough. And this is

30:24 Look. Again, this is why you need a job search council. You need them to be there with you during the listening tour. Not every listening tour conversation will be Uh home run. Once in a while it'll be a dud. I talk about this in the book.

30:36 Like warning, there are some curves ahead, like You could have a conversation. Yeah. I I uh a number of women that I have worked with over the years who've gone and done conversations and they've gotten like Frankly, sexist feedback that was not helpful.

30:49 Yeah, you're too poised or you're not poised enough. Yeah. This strange set of stuff. So You need your your counsels of story help you parse out.

30:59 Yeah, yeah. What people are telling you. And At the end of this listening tour. And you never it never really ends.

31:07 But Once you've done ten or fifteen and you're ready to say, Okay, I'm gonna take a stab at my Canad Market Fit. Now you need your job search counsel because you're g you're gonna want every bone in your body is gonna want that to be expansive. To want it to be broad. Remember, we're product people, at least those of us in the Linese podcast community.

31:25 What happens when we're building a product? Same thing, right? We want we can Oh, we want this product to be for everyone. But We've learned with product market fit that doesn't work.

31:34 Right, we need a narrow, clear focus. Same thing with Canada market fit. So I say to people and we have this whole grid that we give them, ealy. Yeah. I am a I'm looking for a director of product role in a healthcare

31:48 Series B start up. In San Francisco. You know. Like Bing, bing, bing. And people say, oh.

31:55 If it's so narrow I I'm gonna live up and and here's the thing. Right. When you're looking for a job You need a spear and not an egg.

32:04 With a net, everything slips through. No. Part two to this. People are expansive but not reductive. What are you talking about, Phil?

32:14 Here's what I mean. If you give them a specific if I say to you, Lenny, I'm looking for a directory product role at a healthcare startup that's a series B in San Francisco. Well If you see

32:26 another like financial certain a fintech startup that's a in a heavily regulated industry looking for a director of product that's a series B, you're gonna be like, You know what? Phil is looking for, but I bet Phil could do that. You can be expensive. But if I told you, hey, Lenny, I'll take any product job I can.

32:43 You are never gonna think of me. You're never gonna remember me. You're not gonna be reductive from a broad statement, but you will be expansive from a narrow one. And I'll tell you, Lenny, this is so hard for people. You know, and this is why again, you need that counsel and you need that broader community.

32:59 And every week we every two weeks we do a LinkedIn live where we address Yeah, we we go over these questions again and again. Because it goes like I if I were in the job search, I'd feel the same way. Even with all the darn research I've done. It's really hard.

33:13 If you've been using this metaphor approaching this like a product person and this is very much like a product person thinks about new product is there should be a very narrow Audience to start with, kind of a wedge. Or an ICP. When someone's building this, what is a sign they've narrowed it enough? Are there like a certain number of attributes?

33:30 What tells you that like cool, this is small now. So it's it's it's typically three to four attributes. Now I will s you know, and we give people a whole grid and a set of examples. So we had a woman who was a designer. She was a product designer, right? And

33:43 What her product market fit was, she was looking for companies that either did not have a design team or needed to reboot one. And so She wasn't talking about stage of business or even industry. But that Really plant an image in your mind.

33:58 You know exactly if you hear about a company looking for that doesn't have design or looking to reboot design, you're gonna think of her immediately. Because After you've done your listening tour and you've created your Can at Market Fit and your council signs off on it, Lenny. This is important.

34:13 Right. Then you go back out to your listening tour. And you tell all those people, here's now Base thank you for your help. Here's the candidate market that I've come up with. Right.

34:25 And you also post it on LinkedIn. You're like tell the whole world. Right. Now. Will that candidate market fit change over time? Yeah, we're iterative, right? So if you go and go and the and the market is changing.

34:38 Like what was true three months ago may not be true now. Like two weeks ago. The market the stock market was convinced we're going into a recession. And everything crashed. Two weeks later like, Oh no, we're not going into a recession. You know, and that

34:51 That affects the psychology of hiring managers and companies, not just psychology, their willingness to open up recs and everything else. So things are changing. So you need to be flexible and adapted to that, which is also why you need The council why you need to have a good a network around you that you've asked for help from and they're invested in you and can be there for you as you try to keep navigating this. Just to follow the thread a little bit more, when someone is someone's thinking right now, like, okay, what is my

35:16 What are my attributes? What are the what's on that grid roughly? There's stage of company. I imagine there's like stage of company, industry, level of role, and function, of course. And uh culture. Is there like a set of options you have of type of culture? Yeah. Basically everyone wants a good culture.

35:34 And so culture. I mean it you know, sometimes Sometimes it can be very specific, like I need a company that has a a a particular kind of Policy for kids or You know, whenever, you know, remote or hybrid or whatever. You know, that kind of element, right?

35:50 But I I tell people you know Mm. Make it three make it simple. This should not be paragraphs and paragraphs. It should be a one sentence statement. You can do a A longer thing.

36:00 that you can then share with people when you're getting into conversation. But you want something simple that People were old Lenny. Looking for a cheap product officer or you know. Yeah, it's exactly like you want your product to feel too. Exactly. I need a a sock two compliance, I'm gonna think of it.

36:18 Yeah, exactly. Um Okay, so I'm thinking through this list here. So I think So level and roll, I imagine People kind of get a pretty good sense of where they want to be.

36:29 Stage. Any advice for someone to decide what stage Is right for them. I mean, if I were coaching someone, which as you know I do, we would we would talk a lot about this, but when I'm In the book and in the community I say To figure out stage again, I want you to rely on your job search council, your network and your own experience, right? And it becomes pretty

36:50 People usually have a pretty good sense. Like Who was I talking to recently like, you know? I just I need I need a big You know.

36:58 Whereas maybe like, I don't want that. I want a startup. Okay. And what I will tell you is that One thing to keep in mind right now. Is that there are more jobs in the start up world than there are in the established company? Okay. In the tech world.

37:11 For proud of people. That's where new job creation has been happening. It's slower than it was before, but it's more The big companies, they've just been shedding people. They've just been You know, throwing them off, right?

37:23 Whereas The smaller companies There's more opportunity there. Now that doesn't mean that if that you can if you can't stand working at a startup, you sh I'm not telling You should go there.

37:34 Necessarily. But I will say this, and again. If you need to put food on the table. Right. Like so we were talking to someone recently, they were they they had moved to a new city and then were laid off the next day.

37:45 They moved for the company. And then they were laid off the next day. Okay. And like, okay. I need to get a job. I said Okay, yeah, sure. Yeah.

37:53 Just know that it you know. If if you're gonna get a any job just to have while you still look for a long uh uh the job you really want. There's just know that that's hard. That's a hard pen.

38:05 I understand it. And I support it. It makes sense. And his heart. It's harder than you realize and you absolutely have to keep your job search counsel.

38:13 You know,'cause otherwise you're gonna you're gonna get lost. Can I share one story about Canada Market Fit? It might be helpful to people. I was coaching he was an E V P at a traditional media company, but on the digital side running their streaming business. But it was very much.

38:28 And old. You know, you know. economy, old media company. It was not you know, this was not a A player in the streaming space. And they smartly recognized that if they stayed there they were gonna end up

38:41 in a pretty bad cul de sac w and and by the way, that company's had Laos and Like th they wouldn't So they decided they wanted to go work for a company like Netflix or Apple TV, right? But

38:53 And there's someone who ran hundreds of people, corner office, limo, first class, you know what I mean? In the airplane. What was their Canon Market fit? They went out and did this their canon market fit. If they were going to join a top streamer was as an individual contributor. Money.

39:07 That was 'Cause they have like They didn't respect much of what they brought from traditional media. And If he had done this church alone, he would not have done that.

39:18 But to his credit he decided to take that. And it Mm. Formed his career. Is there someone who had a lot of management experience but also tied now with one of the top

39:29 Streamers. He's just he's just done incredibly well. But that is really hard to do. So in this example when you talk about Canon Market Fit, it's Well

39:38 A big part of it is what the market wants from you. Yeah. It's not like he's like, I'm gonna go, I see. He just realized as he was going through the process this is where I'm actually gonna succeed. As he talked to people and I helped him network with people in Silicon Valley, they were just honest with him. You know, and that's what Justin was talking about. This can be hard to humiliating at times to figure out Yeah, we had we had another person who was a chief product officer in a startup.

40:02 And she was great. She helped me with the books. She was an early reader. She's a mar member of your community, Lenny. And She realized that she wasn't getting the right product training. She was the only product person and she didn't really know what she was doing.

40:16 Well what was your candid market bit? It was an I C. It was nice to see roll individual contributor all of a larger You know, tech company. And to her credit, she realized that was the right path for her learning.

40:27 You know, and she did this before the Shoot. In the tech world, fortunately. Ha ha ha. Just not swear. So this you know

40:38 I talked about this in the book. Like sometimes you need a two step strategy. Like let's say you wanna be a VP of product at a at a top streaming company or at Whatever it is. Yeah. But you not have fit for that today. So the question is how do you step there?

40:52 I tell story of the book about Yeah, who'd been a VP product, he wanted a COO role. He was not a fit. He was not a fit, Lenny. And it was very clear the market was telling him he did the listening tour.

41:04 They came back to me and said, I don't care, I want to see our o role. So he interviewed Fifty companies. Right? Fifty. Can you imagine it took him a year and a half? The fiftieth company hired him.

41:14 Ten days later. They're a public company. Massive fraud and they went bankrupt. Is it okay? Like

41:22 You are n the market is clear the only See a little rail you're fit for is it's about it's about to go bankrupt. Like And you're like, Okay. And he went back to VP of product role. I said, If you want to become a COO from that role, where you are today

41:36 One of the great paths is to do it. From that job inside a company. Okay, and that's what he ended up doing. It was a two step strategy. You couldn't go straight there. I'm not talking about people's innate worth, Lynn.

41:49 I believe every human is worthwhile person. And I I deeply believe in belonging and giving people support. You know, and spreading love and creating community. But I also believe in being practical and realistic. Like

42:02 I I didn't create this situation. I'm just trying to report to you what the situation is and how you can manage it. So that you don't get stuck. I can How many people have you seen, Lenny, who get stuck? They You know, they get stuck in a bad job. They're not learning. And then they can't go from there.

42:19 They get into their forties and fifties. And it is tough. A number of people in the job search community who are in their fifties, sixties, whatever, they're dealing with ageism, they're dealing with They're not close enough to the technology frontier. You know?

42:31 You gotta get closer to the technology frontier. Even if that means you're gonna go from the E VP to an IC role. That's how creative destruction works. The closer you are to the technology frontier, The more new jobs and opportunities there are. The further you are from the technology frontier

42:46 the worse you're gonna be over the long run. You might be able to get a better sounding job in the short term. But you're gonna you're gonna find yourself stuck. I love your uh Venn diagram of

42:58 Just like warmth and support and belonging and also just like straight real talk. Here's the reality. Yeah. What a what a combo. This is such powerful advice. And I think people might be feeling like Yeah, I get it, but man, I don't wanna be a I see a again, I've been A director, I've been a VP. The sound's really not great.

43:18 Is there anything else you can share to help people get past that of like, okay, maybe I really should be looking for an IC roll again? Again, if you're if you're in a job search council and also you're in our Slack community, what you're gonna find is that you're not alone. So that's a big thing. It's not just it's not you. There's not something wrong with you. This is the market that we're in. And by the way, the more relationships you build The better you do your listening to her.

43:41 One of the things I tell one of the tactics Lenny I tell people. is you've got to send out an update note every month to all of your network that you've talked to. And it might be I don't have a job yet, or I don't even have any news, but I just wanna let you know I'm still going and I appreciate everything you've done for me. And I'm still looking for X.

43:57 That could be it. You know. And Justin in his note, I re referenced to him earlier as chief practice officer in his note on LinkedIn today, he said, you know Phil told me to keep people updated and I didn't do it enough. And don't make that mistake.

44:10 You gotta do that. Lenny, I I I I met with a group of of about fifty job seekers recently who've been in the never search alone community for more than a year. Okay. They're struggling.

44:21 Yeah. Again, I don't have a magic wand. Well I as I talked to them, what was happening? They stop network. They left their job search council.

44:31 You know? They weren't updating their candidate market fit to the changing market condition. I'm like, you have to do everything! You can't get past him! One of the concepts, Lenny, I talk about is

44:44 You've got to be the I in Village. Villa There's no I in team. Well there is an I and Village. Okay. And the iron village is that When I'm saying You've gotta ask for help, you gotta be a part of job search council community

44:55 You have to be independent and accountable and responsible. I not say You're you're not gonna become passive independent. I no this is how you become more independent. This is having you stand up and be even more accountable and responsible. This is how you can do the best search possible.

45:10 In the market conditions that we have. So the advice here is if you're struggling finding a job. This is a solution. Join a council, bring people on board with you. Update people on your progress. Like these are the things that break you out of that monk that you're probably in. And it will still be hard.

45:26 It will still be hard. I d I I wish that weren't true, Lenny. This will I Now I will tell you that look. What's the difference between now and the dot com depression of two thousand, two thousand one and two?

45:38 The difference is That we were a much smaller industry then. And people had been in web jobs only for a couple of years. Where now we've got people who are in jobs for ten, fifteen Work more years in tech.

45:50 Who have never seen a downturn. They've never seen a market like this. We've never seen a tech market like this. It will improve at some point. But right now. It's tough. And I can't change that.

46:03 But I can provide tools, I can provide community, I can provide heart and smarts. So that you can get the best job. You can get right now. Speaking of advice Is there anything else along the lines of Canada Market Fit?

46:15 Before we move on to more tactics. Just that it you know, you i again that you're gonna you're gonna resist The narrowness of it. It every bone in your body. Just know that that's what

46:28 Everyone is feeling. But go watch I have this great Um Video online. Uh

46:35 Uh he was a VP of product. He he was initially masked, but VP a product in Nike. I met him through Marty. Mm, Chris. It's it's Silicon Valley Product Group. He joined one of our product councils. And then he decided to leave.

46:49 And he's like, Phil, I love you, but this Canada Market Fit stuff No Uh you're wrong. It needs to be Bry. And so he went out and he actually spoke to a bunch of B Cs and like We don't have any idea what to do with you.

47:01 You have to tell us something really specific. You're like Oh man. So he went, he's like, Phil you So he redid it. Bam bam bam.

47:12 I tell another story in the book about Didi. She was a chief data officer. She of a large company, she w uh in tech, wanted to become a CTO. She had a technology and engineering background as well as data. She spent a year spinning her wheels alone. I said join the job search council.

47:27 What It turns out she was a great fit for a mid sized regional bank. CTO Right. And

47:38 Within three weeks she had three offers. A year nothing. Within three weeks, three offers. So I can't I can't guarantee You're going to get three offers within three weeks, right? I'm not saying that. Some of you, it might take you six months or a year. And the more senior you are, Lenny. The longer it is.

47:53 If you're a CEO, it's gonna take you a long time unless you happen to be the CEO of Chipotle. Yeah. I know you're creating a a page that we're gonna link people to, which is I think or is it Phil.org slash Lenny? Yes. Okay, cool. And is it gonna have this template to help you

48:11 Work out your kind of market fit. There'll be a link to where you can download not only that template, but all the templates. You don't you don't even have to join a job search council to get all this stuff. I I hope you do. Yeah. Again, it's free.

48:25 And people like I I will say early on people were like, What what's the trick here? You know, this is free and you're gonna charge me. No. No. This is free. I feel very

48:35 I dedicate why am I making it free? Because one, I can. Which is cool. Second This isn't Honor of my mom.

48:42 And third. I want to create a private safety net. for for the ravages of creative destruction. It's great. A lot of positive consequences, but there's negative ones.

48:52 And I just don't love the idea of charging people. For this. I charge people for other things, but not for this. And we'll link we'll link people to the things you charge for so they can support you. And benefit you in other ways. Or benefit themselves in other ways. Benefit them and me. That'd be awesome.

49:05 Yeah. Let's talk about some other tactics. You mentioned this idea of playing to win, and I think within that there's this kind of OKR and mission tactic. Let's talk about that. Fifty percent.

49:19 Join a job search council and follow everything I've described, like the people Don't do what I'm about to tell you. Okay. It is the Biggest

49:28 mistake and miss. And I'm really sorry about this. Yeah, man that You know, I'm on a campaign. Right. So

49:35 Here's the thing. When you start to interview and negotiate. You've got to be in charge. People think When I'm say I I talk this is collaborative coaching, I want you to play to win.

49:46 Not not to lose. Now when people hear me say that, they translate it in their brains into Oh, Phil is saying that I've gotta be a rules Negotiator. Okay. If anyone who knows me know.

49:59 Really is just not how I am, you know? At least in this sense. Um And no no, I'm like What I want you to do

50:09 And it's just it's just it's great it's a great tactic that we stumbled upon. And it's one of the best tactics in the book. And I really hope we can get the other half of the people who are in in the community to to do this and and your listeners who aren't involved to decide to join Also do this.

50:26 When you start interviewing, I want you to create your own version of the job description. I want you to go privately, Lenny. And I want you to create what I call a job mission with OKRs. Now most job descriptions They suck, Lenny.

50:41 The company doesn't know what the F they're doing. They don't know exactly what they're looking for. And So but I'm not telling you to say that to them.

50:50 Just to be clear. I'm telling you. I want you to create your own job mission with OKRs. This is key. It needs to be with OKRs. Now your audience knows what an OKR is. Objectives and key results, I assume I don't need to explain that.

51:03 It needs to be something where you are are saying, here's what I think I'm gonna be accountable for. Here's what I'm going to actually the outcomes I'm going to deliver, right? At the company that you join. At the company you join. Now you keep it private at first because drafting it This thing's has multiple benefits. The first is drafting it will help you

51:23 understand and develop great interview questions. To ask them. To clarify. What is this job? And they'll be impressed by that.

51:32 Okay. The second thing is once you've had a couple of interviews and it's a draft now, it's not a full Final thing. I this is so important. I want you to pull the hiring manager aside and say, Hey Lenny, you're the hiring manager. I've thought about what the role is. I want to make sure I'm understanding it correctly. Can I share something with you?

51:50 I don't want you to email it. I want you to do a phone call, Zoom, or coffee or whatever. And Lenny Can you imagine? How hiring managers feel when they get this. Job mission with OKRs?

52:01 I was talking to a senior guy at Amazon who's hired more than two thousand product leaders and others. He said, Phil, no one in This was He's part of our private county. He said no one in my life has ever done this. If someone did this, it would blow my mind. I would hire them.

52:17 On the spot. And that that's the message I want these folks to understand. We talk about silver medals, Lenny. Yeah. In the job search, the civil medal sucks.

52:27 At the Olympics, hey, it's pretty good. You get to be on the podium. But guess what? Civil Meta is It's almost worse than And'cause you were almost there. And we have a number of videos and other things we would talk about. The difference in many cases between getting the silver and gold

52:41 has been doing the job mission with OKRs. Companies say This is what distinguished you. This is what led we were like Well who who is this person? They're already, you know, thinking about what they're accountable and the outcomes and and naturally they're thinking about it better than I am.

52:56 Which is fantastic. Right? So it it raises the odds, but it also does something if you present it again, Lenny, you're the hiring manager. I show you my job. Yeah. And and you're like, Oh, this is fantastic. But you also say, Oh, you know

53:08 This thing you have here, this ill care, this isn't part of the role. Like, oh, that's helpful to understand. But this thing or that you don't have listed is Oh, right. Lenny, how many times we're gonna I'm gonna ask people in the audience to raise their hands. How many times have you?

53:23 Taking the job A That turned out to be job B. Mm. Everybody just raised their hand. So this helps to address that.

53:32 Right. So And then If you get the offer, and again, this raises the odds of getting the offer. It then set you up.

53:42 Two. negotiate what I call the four legs of the negotiations tool. This is not hard negotiation. This is something that company loves. I actually say You know, you get an offer and it's like what two hundred and fifty thousand dollar base with a thirty percent bonus, you know, this is maybe a director or whatever. There. See your manager.

54:01 Um You know. Maybe it's an eight hundred base if you know, if you're more senior, whatever it might be. I want you to go and talk to the hiring manager. If possible.

54:11 Not though. Hopefully not the recruiter, that we'll talk about that. And I want you to say This is great. I wanna talk about money, but before we do

54:21 I wanna think about some of the things that will set me up to succeed in this role. Like Yeah, I've thought about like I think there's like ten million dollars of tech debt here. Does that sound right to you?

54:33 And are we on board that we're gonna like that'll be priority one to eliminate the First day I start the job. We had two CPOs. Both interviewing at private equity firms at about private equity owned companies about the same size, Sause companies.

54:47 One had tech debt of twenty million, one had tech debt of ten. I told them both you gotta get that. Yeah. Talk that in the So one talked about it in the negotiation and the company was like Oh, that's great. They wrote a check on day one.

54:59 Six months later the tech debt was relieved. They You know, updated the systems. They were able to get into innovation. A year later they got promoted to a GM role in addition to their CPO role. And then a year after that, they were being interviewed for the CEO role.

55:13 The other person Where there was ten million of tech debt. Was kinda shy about asking. sort of mentioned it. They're like, Oh, we'll talk about it when you get here, but they they didn't really commit. And they never addressed it.

55:26 One month, six months, twelve months eighteen months later he's looking for a job. This is the opportunity cost of not being set up for success. Now again. Don't hear this as antagonistic. We're not antagonistic here. We're trying to say what's gonna help me succeed.

55:41 So one CPO recently was negotiating Like I'm not just talking about budget and I'm uh for Check that or whatever, like If you're a senior person, like Do you think that team needs more training?

55:52 You need to send them over to Marty's workshops over to my product councils, right? Get them into Lenny's community. Like He the company was like You're negotiating the training budget of the team that you don't even run yet? Well, we're talking about your salary?

56:05 What we love you! We're gonna pay you even more! Like Companies love this. And Even if you're a junior person, you're not gonna negotiate budget, but you can talk about like mentorship.

56:18 Professional development, what kinds of You know, will you be able to attend conferences or training? Again, and this is like And we're not hard we're not hard negotiating this. We're saying Here's what I think I'm gonna need to accomplish the OPRs that we've already agreed upon.

56:32 This is really cool advice. I wanna make sure people super understand it. So an example of tech debt. So this person asked, I need ten million dollars budget in order to address this tech debt. Yeah. I see. So it's not like I believe we will save ten million dollars if we spend on time. It's like here's how much This team will need and I will need to do it. I mean they need a check for ten million dollars on day one. I guess you were someone who would be shy asking for that.

56:57 Or that was that was twenty million actually. That was the one that asked for that. That was the twenty million, that was right. And and again It was not Yes, people feel really shy about this. They're like But the company of like love that they understood what it was gonna take.

57:11 Just I will tell you what, if the company doesn't like this, it's a huge red flag. Huge red flag. It means they're not serious. Right. But if if you're talking to them, hey

57:22 I think we're gonna need I'm gonna need to, you know, train the team. I'm gonna need I'm gonna need to hire three more ICs. Or you know. the the design function is weak or You know, whatever it might be. Yeah, do you and and you're saying do you agree? Do you see it this way, you know?

57:37 And and they're like, yeah, that's right. Good. Wow, you're already like bang bang bang. We haven't even Finish negotiating your salary. Yeah.

57:45 And But this is So counterintuitive, Lenny. Yeah. I'm sort of I'm sort of the

57:52 Queen of counterintuitive stuff. Can it work a fit is character intuitive, right? But this is as well. People think they're going to lose the opportunity when it actually

58:04 Wins them. T of course if they March Simon said. Damn it, I you have to do X and Y, right? That's not what I'm talking about, like. Hey, here's how I see it. This is the okay ours, I think we're gonna need this. Does that make sense to you? Uh

58:15 You know, and you're having a collaborative conversation about How you need to be set up for success. And by the way, if they say if they say no, I hear you, I believe you, but no Then you make a judgment decision, like I'm not always saying you turn that away.

58:30 It's like Well, especially if you need a job, right? But you're now going in eyes wide open. Okay. you're not going to be able to relieve that tech debt initially. You're gonna have to work within that constraint. So I love that we're getting into negotiation advice, by the way,'cause I was hoping we'd get there.

58:44 So the advice here is Identify something that you'll need to be successful and your But your finding is that when you ask. for and it seems like a financial investment as a part of you joining ends up

58:57 leading to a better uh comp for you. Yes. And I will say that there's less negotiating room today than there was two years ago because of the market that we're in. And the data all bears that out. We see that.

59:09 But but I but here's here's the other piece of data. So I want you to ask for things that tie back to the OKRs that you've already agreed on with the hiring manager. This is this this is This is how this thing connects together, right? It's like Lego's. And then

59:24 And then we come to the money. And you've had this lovely conversation, you've shown them how much You're invested in succeeding. That's what you see, Lenny, the problem that every hiring manager has Is distinguishing be someone between someone who is a good talker

59:40 And someone who can actually make things happen. You know this, right? And this is true every from you know individual contributor to CEO. By doing the job mission of the OKRs

59:52 And by showing them that draft, you are showing them. Not filling them. Showing them that you take initiative. That you're accountable. That you can make things happen.

1:00:01 And then in the job nego in the sorry negotiation, by talking to them about what you need to succeed, you're showing them that you really want. To succeed. And guess who that benefits? That benefits the company, obviously. So I want you to do that first. And then okay, so then let's talk money. Now eighty seven percent of the time, Lenny, when you ask for more money, you get it.

1:00:22 That's a long s uh longitudinal statistic, meaning over many years. It's going to be lower in a moment like this. But you can still ask. And

1:00:33 It uh people are afraid to ask. I again don't ask in some shark way. Like some of my friends in business might do. Some you know, M and A negotiators, whatever. No athlete.

1:00:47 Yeah, are you open? Unless it's a deal breaker. You know, li if it's a deal breaker, just be open about that. But if it's not like let's say they offered you whatever it is, four hundred base. With

1:00:57 Yeah, up to a hundred percent, whatever and some R S user options, blah blah. And you really wanted four fifty. Lenny, you can say, Hey, are you open To four fifty. That I w that was really what I was hoping for when I think you know, I'm worse. Are you open to that? Is that something we can talk about?

1:01:16 And most of the time they say yes. And they may not even get you they may not get you to four fifty. Let me like you know yes, thank you. We could let me get back to you, you know, or No, we could go to four twenty. Does that work? Yeah. Great.

1:01:28 You make it sound very easy. Uh, I'm I hate negotiating, yeah. I do too. And I talk about this in the book and I w Jason Freed, who you know. So Yeah.

1:01:37 Jason Fried's got this great thing where they have all very clear bands at thirty seven signals at well at base camp. He's like because no one's trained in negotiation. How can we expect people to negotiate? And this is another thing Marty says about my book. He says, Yeah, what he loves is that Companies have all of these resources. They've got lawyers and HR people and you're there alone. Who You know, that's why you need your job search council.

1:01:59 This is when you really need to ask for help. 'Cause every bone in your body is gonna say, I'm not gonna negotiate. That's gonna That's gonna make it worse. And it almost never does. And again, you could be a jerk about it. That won't be good. But that's not what I'm talking about.

1:02:14 I'm talking about collaborative conversation. I'm talking about What you need to succeed, showing them that you're thinking about resources, support, budget that will help you Deliver on the things that you signed up for. And then asking, you know, are you open to if it you know, if if they didn't quite hit your range.

1:02:30 Yeah. Like the way you phrase it make it make it very Uh. Very low risk too. Yeah. Um, do you have any specific advice on doing this over email, over phone call, or in person? Is there something you're like, definitely do it. And that's why I think it's like

1:02:44 strongly want you to do it either in person or over the phone. Live. With the hiring manager. Now some companies won't let you do that. You have to talk to the HR person or whatever.

1:02:56 But As much as you can. Work with the hiring manager. But even if it's Just to

1:03:03 To say, hey, I just wanna run by you some of the things I think I need to succeed in the role. You know, before we talk money, you know, with the hiring manager or whatever. With a recruiter, I mean. And they'll go to bad for you behind the scenes if you do that.

1:03:16 N not guaranteed, but more likely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's totally true. Cause oftentimes you don't really have like a specific budget as a hiring manager. Right. So to you it's like sure, four fifty, let's let's make it happen. That's right. Now some companies like know this and they're like you have to talk to the The the person we designate the internal recruiter.

1:03:34 But you can also get back to that hiring manager. You know, and and even informally. Again, if you've built a good relationship. And everything is about building good relationships, Lenny. You know, I want you to be a good interviewer. I want you to ask good questions. I want you to listen.

1:03:49 I want you to present that job, Mr. Phil KR as it shows how innovative and how much you take initiative and how much you're thinking about this and how much you want this. Right. Every step of the way. This episode is brought to you by Dovetail, the customer insights hub for product teams. Understanding customers is a critical part of good product development.

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1:05:06 Tail dot com slash Letting. That's dovetail.com slash Lenny. While we're on this topic of negotiation and comp, is there anything else there that you might Wanna share that might be helpful to people?

1:05:18 In the book. Before you do the listening tour, I ask people to do what I call the gratitude house exercise. Which is to think about Who are all the people in your life who have helped you get to where you are today? I mean you could talk about your third grade teacher, you know what I mean? Like I'm just talking on

1:05:36 I just want you to do that. And I want you to do that because Everyone has this idea that they're alone. We have all received enormous help. to do what we're doing. What Whoever we are. You know.

1:05:49 Even Even the crewmith in the desert was born to a mother, okay. And they did not make it themselves for the first several years of their lives, right? We all are born of mothers. We all are born of families and communities, some better whereas I had a pretty tough

1:06:05 Childhood, but And there was love. And And I want you to do that gratitude house exercise and then it can sometimes surface people that you'll go talk to and look at C tour. Might not talk to your third grade teacher, but

1:06:17 Yeah, taxes. Now. When you're going in to interview I I I ask people to take a moment And

1:06:26 Re reflect re read the Grandest House. Exercise. Remind themselves. Of everyone they're carrying with them.

1:06:35 To imagine that they're on your shoulders. All of those people, including your job search council, of course, and everyone you've talked to you're listening to or You're walking in with fifty people, Lenny. Okay. Even people will tell me.

1:06:48 I don't know anyone. Now that is not true! You know. You might not know as many people as I do. Okay.

1:06:56 That's understandable. My job is to know people. Okay. But everyone knows some people and you bring them with you, even metaphorically. So that you feel not alone when you're going in.

1:07:08 to that interview. The other thing I say With the interview and the negotiations, you've got to go do a debrief right afterwards, Lenny. Because we all have these cockami ideas about what happened. We think we did terribly when we did well, we think you know.

1:07:22 And we need to talk it through with someone else who can help us, like Parse exactly what happened and really. Where we're at. Yeah. I had a woman who

1:07:31 The director of product. She was interviewing for a VP of product role. She texted me after the interview. Oh, I screwed it up. This and that. This and that. But they really liked me and we're gonna go to the next round. I'm like, wait a minute, wait a minute. Something is not true here.

1:07:47 Like This is just your own imposture syndrome and inner critic. That's another exercise we ask people to do, by the way, is what we call the inner critic exercise. Name the critic. You know. Mine is Tub Tour.

1:08:00 I was I was overweight when I was a kid and my dad caught me tub tour. I learned that tactic from uh Julie Cameron from uh the Artist Way, she recommends that. Yes, she's great. Love that book. By the way, it's on my bookshelf back there. I love that. I think I call mine gym. Yeah. Uh we had a really good episode, I don't know if you saw with Joe Hudson and he has a whole

1:08:21 Yeah. series of advice on on your inner critic and his Point oh point two it is Your inner critic is always lying to you. Yeah. I did see that episode.

1:08:31 I think. Yeah. I I love it. We and we all have it. Like people think oh yeah. Like everyone and and that's what I love about this moment we're into, Lenny. You know, I started in therapy in the nineteen eighties. In the nineteen eighties you did not share that you were in therapy.

1:08:45 Okay. S Today we have tennis stars talking about their emotional Well being and their therapy and how they're doing. Like

1:08:54 We have prof you know it p it's beginning to normalize in some really important ways. That you know, emotions are Are th they're not bad. And they're actually really important to the decision making system. But they can also

1:09:08 They can go off in certain ways that They can uh That can really hurt us. And it feels like these councils are like a light therapy. Yes.

1:09:17 I wouldn't say th I wouldn't ever want to say the word therapy because of course that uh implies certification and training. But there's a a therapeutic aspect to it. Mm-hmm. I feel comfortable saying that. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Okay. Um so on this uh Gratitude House just coming back there real quick. Yeah. The reason that is powerful is that gives you confidence to ask for stuff, to believe in yourself. Gives you confidence to walk in there is who you are. Mm-hmm. Lenny?

1:09:41 Not your not as your inner critic, but as the whole good person that you are. Yeah. And that's and when you show up. This is one of the reasons job search councils are so important because

1:09:52 If your anxiety and fear starts to run away and and erode at your confidence, it will hurt your interviewing. You will not show up well. You know, so you're not gonna even Even in a down market you'll you're gonna get even you know, you won't even get the jobs that You know, your candidate market fits the just you're good for in that down market. You're gonna get slide down a few more notches.

1:10:12 Yeah, or you just won't get offers. And then you're gonna get paralyzed and feel like you're really worthless. And if anyone watching this has been out of work for a while and feels that, let me just tell you, you are not worthless. You are not worthless.

1:10:27 And I and I want you to invest in yourself. to prove that to yourself that you're not worthless. Y you are worth the investment of this time and energy. I'm not asking you to do this for me. I'm asking you to do this for you. You got tingles when you said that.

1:10:43 That is a really powerful message. I'm glad you said that. Thank you Lenny. Yeah. So we're on this topic of playing to win and what you just said is kind of along the same lines is just remember you're playing to win, you're not trying to lose, you're not trying to Not move.

1:10:57 I just I just can't say anything. I I just can't Wrap the belt. I'm not asking the rap, but Mm. I'm asking you to take charge and demonstrate The power of who you are, you the these companies will love it.

1:11:10 So when I asked a lot of people what to ask you what you're amazing at, uh One of the most common themes is uh really good at just asking for help and teaching people how to ask for help. Which was actually an uh topic for a recent newsletter post by one of my newsletter fellows, Natalie. So uh let's talk about it. Talk about why this is so important. Why why you spend so much thought in

1:11:31 I'm on this topic. First I'm wanna shout out my mom again. So my mom's name her nickname was Chick, C H I C Her her friends and family and I dedicate the book to Chick. And she started that first council in nineteen sixty. And she asked for help. Of course, she taught me to ask for help. And assert councils.

1:11:49 And of course when I was very young Uh I didn't want to do what my mother said, right? You're not right. But um I ended up in a I ended up in a bad situation and she's like, You've got to ask for help and I asked my high school teachers for help.

1:12:04 I was I was an alcoholic at the age of twelve, Lenny. And thing things were really spir spiraling downwards. Yeah, and I was no longer living with my mom. There's a whole Long story about that. And um

1:12:16 I was in a pretty unsupportive position and Uh She's like, You've got to ask for help. And so I did. And

1:12:26 Uh huh. Oh, MG. Letty. I mean It's just uh

1:12:33 You know, I I was carried By these teachers. And I also have to give a shout out and I'm gonna cry now to my girlfriend in high school, Karen Cavner. His family had very few resources. They were struggling.

1:12:46 But they they made a home for me. And I couldn't have done it without them and some of my other friends and my teachers. Like You know, I was I I was Yeah, I worked a full time job by the age of sixteen.

1:13:01 And I was going to high school. And I was in a tough situation. And It was Uh I mean

1:13:08 It was transformative, Lenny. It was transformative. And did I feel like asking for help was a weakness? I did. You know. Did I think people were gonna think less of me? Absolutely. I thought all the things that people think

1:13:21 And it is not what happens. No. There there is a warning here. If you ask for help poorly, and I'm gonna decide that. It does end up.

1:13:31 leading to bad consequences. I mean If you don't do your homework. If you're asking for someone to do it for you rather than advise and support and give you perspective. We all know that. Right.

1:13:44 Like I get I get these emails lady so When I started the the product councils, Marissa Meyer was a founding member. Right, Marissa Meyer Google and Miriam Mohe did Amazon. And as Marit's reputation grew. Suddenly everybody wanted to talk to Marissa.

1:13:58 But I got all these random emails from people I've never met. Oh I've got software. Would you please introduce me to Mercer, I think she'd want to you know, uh license it or you know, buy a uh at Google. Yeah, I'm like What? That is the dumbest Of course I'm never gonna answer that.

1:14:12 Right? If they hadn't reached out to me and said I know you don't know me. I have this small software company. I'm not well connected. But I

1:14:21 I would love your advice on how to grow this business and what you would do if you were in my shoes. Which I have never received, Lenny. Even though I've written about it and about I would have done that phone call. You know, and then if they've said, Well, can I talk to Richard, you have not earned that yet.

1:14:39 That's not a uh statement about your worth. It's just you're not ready for that conversation. So you can do it poorly, but if you do it well, if you've done your homework. You know, and you're open. Oh my gosh. There's four counterintuitive rules here.

1:14:58 Asking for help is not a sign of weakness, it's a sign of confidence. It both requires confidence and strengthens it, Lenny. That's number one. Two. It's not a taking activity. It's a giving activity. If you do it well, you're actually being giving to the people you ask.

1:15:14 This is Really counterintuitively. This is what I teach in my product councils. Right. I'm like, you have to ask for out the language.

1:15:22 I like if you ask for help and you're open and vulnerable, you're a smart person. So At one point Marissa came in and said, Listen, I'm developing a new product, I'm gonna present it to the board. But I'd like your feedback on it first and think you know, what do you guys think? Am I approaching this in the right way? People like

1:15:38 What? You know, Google's already a public company at this point, like Wow, that they were like if they were just blown away. They were so happy. How Right. So if you if you've done your homework

1:15:50 And you as someone who has some expertise in the area that you have and you you know do it in this way. I'd love your perspective and thoughts and how would you approach it? People feel given to. They feel given to And here's the thought experiment that'll prove it.

1:16:05 Imagine that somebody that you respect comes to you for help on an area that you have expertise. And they ask you in this way. How are you going to feel any? How do you feel? Like they value. Like they value my my opinion and Yeah, you feel honored.

1:16:21 And you feel excited and you love giving. Everyone loves giving. This a it's a part of human activity. And you learn more when you give, of course. Because it helps you see something new. So asking for help is not a sign of weakness, it's not a taking activity. It means you're becoming more independent, not independent. And it doesn't hurt your reputation.

1:16:39 It improves it. Something I did not understand when my mom was trying to tell me to do this, Lenny. And it took the experience to drill into my head. And then I will tell you like I will I won't name names but one person that you asked who's a prominent product person who's worked at great companies, right?

1:16:56 He said. Tell ask them about asking for help. Yeah. I think he would agree with this. You've been a member of the private councils for a long time. I think it I think it took

1:17:06 Years before he really embraced it. I've seen many people like they're like Bill, I know you keep talking about this asking for help thing. And I I I know there's something to it, but It is trans.

1:17:19 Formative letter. It is transformative. If you learn dash real well and you know I can tell you about Brad Smith and into it. Hmm.

1:17:29 Yes. Set tuppled the stock price there. But he hit he was a GM, he became a CO, but he was a GM He he ran a project and he didn't do it well. He lost three hundred million dollars to the company.

1:17:42 He thought, Okay, that's over. But they came to him and said Yeah, what's your lesson here? You said I didn't ask I didn't ask for help. You know, I was pig headed, I didn't listen to my G Like that's a great lesson. And if you really Internalize that.

1:17:54 Then it's worth it because you're great in other ways. And he ended up getting to the CEO role. And what did he do? He joined a council? Right? And he asked for help. Boom boom boom.

1:18:04 Stock price goes up seven X in his tenure. Okay. Ken Chanel in American Express. Joins in the nineteen eighties, one of you know one the one of the few African Americans in Professional roles there.

1:18:16 Hands up As a CEO and chairman of the board. Okay. First African American chairman of a Fortune fifty company. Right.

1:18:24 You ask and schnell as I did. How'd you get there? He asked for help. And by the way, what did he do once he became CO? He got on a CO council. You know?

1:18:33 And by the way, who know who who who asked for help? Well, this is gonna blow your mind if you Warren Buffett. People think Warren Bevitt only listens to himself at Charlie Munger, who passed away last year. That guy asked for help well he didn't ask anybody for help. He asked people he respects and so on. But that guy asked for help.

1:18:50 Every single leader I've ever worked with that has done well asked for help. And I update on the book. Eighty five percent of the people get to a senior role credit asking for help. Get help get them there. Eighty five percent of the people in a junior role.

1:19:02 Say they're afraid to ask her out because they think it's a sign of weakness. Mm. Perfect. It's literally the same number, if you can believe that. I couldn't believe it when I did the data. I was like What? But it's really it's

1:19:14 And guess what? If you don't learn to ask for help and you're a junior person, you're gonna remain a junior person most likely. When you say ask for help. What are some examples and common times and uses of asking for help, you know,'cause it could be like, hey, can you just Will get this email for me, or is it like I'm struggling with this project? Like what are some things that you've seen

1:19:33 When people think Ask for help do this. One of the things that Ken Shaw talks about is what he calls defining reality. So it's the CEO at American Express. He was constantly just going around and asking different people in the company and outside the company. How do you see things? What do you see and what do you think you Help me understand your perspectives.

1:19:49 Right. So that's a form of asking for help for sure. Okay. Reviewing my email absolutely is a great form of asking for help. If you're If you're sending a good email, an important email, let's say. And let's say you have a history of maybe sending emails that don't get well received.

1:20:03 Biffer asked for help! You know? And by the way, I have a whole workshop where I teach people how to use chat GPT. With some communication models. To help you.

1:20:13 with that email. So there's ways to do that with chat GPT. Okay. But I still if it's a really important email I want you to have eyes on. Right. Th there's a woman who became the president of a digital retailer in the United States about five years ago.

1:20:27 And then she realized that She had significant technical debt. And the project that they were they they were trying to build a new platform and it was stuck. They were So We convened what we call a peer coaching call.

1:20:40 And I also talked about this in the book. We got three other presidents of retailers, online retailers who had replatformed. And spend an hour, just one hour with her. Asking them for help.

1:20:51 What would you do if you were in my position? I mean bing bang boom. So when people get a new job, by the way, I tell them Do a first ninety days peer coaching call. I want you to talk to people.

1:21:03 Who are in that role today. You know, not at that company necessarily, but Yeah, they're a directory product, they're a VPA product, whatever it might be. And I want you to say, Hey, I'm starting this job. You know, here's my job mission with OKRs.

1:21:15 What would you do if you were in my shoes? What mistakes Have you seen others or yourself make that I need to avoid? What should I focus on? Here's what I'm thinking for my thirty, sixty, ninety, whatever it might be. I want you to do a first n first ninety days call. Now let's say you're a director of product in a job is going well and you want to get to a VP of product role.

1:21:32 Well then I want you to do a career evolution call. Where you're talking to VPs of product. Okay, I'm a director, I want to become a VP. How do I get from A to B? Will you tell me And that's another peer coaching call, right? So these are the things we do. In the paid community. Uh in the product council and so but you can do these on your own.

1:21:48 Right. And I tell people how to do them on their own in the job search councils. Right, so perfect. Is is are these helpful answers? Absolutely. Absolutely. I think all these examples you're sharing is exactly I think what people are wondering, just like okay, I see. Yeah. Can I share one more? That's that's so great.

1:22:04 So Bradley Horowitz joined Google in two thousand eight as director of pride. Right. So if you come from Yahoo. There's you know, he was he was initially intimidating. He had a weekly meeting with Jonathan Rosenberg, who was the F V P of product. With Susan Wujitsky.

1:22:18 Susan, you know, just passed away tragically. Absolutely fabulous person, by the way. If people don't know her, go go learn about her. Marissa Meyer. And also another director of product named Sundar Pichai, right?

1:22:33 Who is now the CEO of Google. And You know, Bradley was like, you know, he was nervous. He didn't know how to be in that meeting. Right. And

1:22:42 One of the things I tell people, when you ask for help, use your emotional intelligence, use your Product council if you're in a job or your job search council if you're looking to get feedback on like, am I thinking about this well? Cause I don't want you to ask the wrong people for help. Right. Someone who's

1:22:57 gonna take advantage of that. Right. You have to be thoughtful about. He was picking up vibes from Sundar that he was very approachable. He lacked guile. Yeah, Bradley told me Sunar just made it easy for him to say, Hey

1:23:11 After one of these meetings, could I ask you a couple of questions? And You know. He says to s the first question he asked is Is this meeting is it just me or is this meeting intense?

1:23:21 Yeah. And then I was like, oh no, no, this is intense. I feel the same way you do, and I've been here for a couple of years, right? So they start to build a bond, you know, and that that's a form of asking for help. It's like

1:23:33 You're checking like uh Is your experience the same as mine, or am I you know, am I missing something? And then you know Korowitz, who felt relieved at this point. Uh felt more trust with Sundar decided to ask him

1:23:46 Another question. And this question and by the way, now Bradley he he he's kind of embarrassed that he asked this question, although I'm really happy that he did. I told him this. He asked this question, he basically said, You know I haven't been here very long, but you still

1:24:02 You know, Sandar, you strike me as a really thought person and great leader. Why is your remit just working on a toolbar for Melissa? For Marisa. Right. And like whoa.

1:24:13 Yeah. That's part the wrong way. That could sound like an insult or something, rather than an honest attempt to understand the culture of Google and how it operates. But again, he had trust. Soon our this point.

1:24:24 And he had established, you know, and so he decided and it was an open and vulnerable question. It was great pitch I basically said Listen. Uh. I don't worry about title or scope or any of that. I've really been focused on just doing good work and letting the right things happen. That's the culture of Google.

1:24:40 I will tell you. That that was ch more true of the culture, Google in a way that's not so Uh. I think I can you know. You you have to be a little more politically aware, Google, today.

1:24:50 Okay. But the point is not so much. The exact question he asked, but that he was open and vulnerable, he was thoughtful about who he asked. And it really made a difference in terms of his entry into Google. And eventually led him to the V P product role, of course, Sunar came.

1:25:05 Into the CEO role down the road. But that's that's what I'm talking about, right? But you need you know, he was part of the Product council's bad like you you you need to have That sounding board so you can be thoughtful about

1:25:17 And You know, I t I teach people how to map and figure out who their allies are and their blockers and play what I call positive politics. That's all in my next book, but Never lead alone. Ha.

1:25:28 Just to give a little bit of a Yeah. We're at least a year away. When I write a book I do I I did four hundred drafts of Never Search Alone.

1:25:36 I had A couple of thousand people help me with it and two hundred people read it and use it. I had two twenty five hundred comments and four hundred drafts. I like to really dog shoot this stuff, okay. And I'm gonna I'm doing the same. with never lead alone.

1:25:49 That's that's how I know it works. By the way. I doesn't matter. I'm a predator. I mean that's what we do. That's amazing. Let me ask one last question around the uh art of asking for help. Yeah. So we've talked about

1:26:04 When to ask for help a little bit. What are just like a couple of tips for how to do it well? Like you know, if people come to me and like, Hey, can you look at this email? I'm be like No, I'm really I'm pretty busy. I don't know if I have time to look at an email. You have to think about the relationship. Right. Like

1:26:19 Again showing that exactly. random small software company wanted to talk to Marissa Meyer. I didn't know them. They they didn't know me and they didn't know Marissa like That's not gonna happen. Right. Lenny, if your mom I'm just you know, or you know, your close friend or your colleague

1:26:34 Who you work closely with says, I'm once you look at this email, you're gonna respond in one way. It's If someone Person Yeah. Let's say

1:26:43 In Europe. Podcast committee, which is great, want you to do it. I mean Yeah, you have thousands of people there. You can't do that. And People come to me for job search advice in the job search community, I said I can't I can't do that. I can't scale that.

1:26:55 That's what the job search council and the Slack community is there for. You know. I I appreciate you asking, but you know, that that's that's what the deal is there. You gotta think about the relationship. You be y you've got to under listen to your emotions.

1:27:08 This is where again emotions are really important for decision making. If your emotions are telling you I don't know if I trust this person. Don't Don't get all open and vulnerable with them.

1:27:18 You know? I want you to learn to ask for help in a council format where it's really shape. You can flail around, you know, you can ask And for Kaita Waze. Yeah, there's

1:27:28 There's ways to ask for help. Where it's like Where Have you experienced this, Lenny, where I want you to do me a favor.

1:27:38 Okay, but I'm but I'm actually acting like I'm doing you a favor. Yeah. Lenny, I have this person to talk to I know is really gonna be great for you to talk to. But really, I'm trying to Yeah, do f get you to give me whereas I should have said, Lenny, I have a favor to ask. Would you be willing to do this?

1:27:54 You just say yes or no? No, that's the other thing. I really want you to be honest with people about what you're asking. I never want you to hide the atmosphere. That is really good advice. Yeah. A lot of times it's just yeah, okay. This is just a favor for you. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean if people would say to me,

1:28:07 You know, I have a favor to ask, you know, would you be like Yeah. Most of the time I'm gonna say yes to that. You know? But Yeah.

1:28:15 Have you did you get call introductions, Lenny? Where people introduce me to someone else without asking me. It's like it's not a super common, but it does happen for sure. It almost never is someone you want to talk to. Yeah, yeah, that's right. It's not like Hey, let me introduce you to Sergey Brent.

1:28:30 You know. No. Hm. It's like they're trying to help somebody. And you're doing them a favor, but they're not being honest.

1:28:39 Yeah. Okay. That's amazing advice. Um Phil, we could talk for hours about so many things. You're involved in so many other things I wanna hear about, but maybe one last question before we

1:28:48 Start to close out our chat. Uh Just a broad question. Is there anything else that you think would be valuable. For people to know or leave with.

1:28:56 as kind of a final note around either Job hunting. Asking for help, anything else and then I'm gonna Ask you to share all the things that you do for people that maybe could benefit from one of these other programs.

1:29:07 When when my book came out we did a we did a book party in New York and the host of it. Very senior. product person.

1:29:21 Run a job search council. was and I said this earlier, but I want to come back to it. Everyone feels anxious. and insecure in the job search. Lenny, I

1:29:33 Everyone. It's built into the fabric of how capitalism operates. It's not Something problematic in your head. It's it's it's the instability of the system, which gives us its dynamism.

1:29:46 But which also creates trends insecurity and fear. Everyone feels that, Lenny. You're not alone. And just discovering and but but my saying that is not enough. What I say in the book

1:30:02 Is that this is it's th this book it's like a cookbook. You don't get the calories from reading it. You gotta actually pick the dishes. Right.

1:30:10 So to experience what I'm seeing. You need a job search counsel and you need to go like oh my gosh, it's really drawing out. Even Lenny. Lenny feels this. Holy

1:30:21 What? You know, wow, look at everything Lenny has done and created. And he feels this way. Maybe I'm not crazy. Yeah.

1:30:32 So I'm you know, there's so much else to this, but but That is such a core point. It's such an important point to leave with. And just to build on exactly what you just said about me. uh this uh strange life that I've created for myself. Uh I originally called it project Avoid Getting a Real Job.

1:30:47 Because I was Worried about that. Like I I f forced myself to try something else instead. That's amazing. That's amazing. That's great. Well, thank you. Because you have created something that's really meaningful to a lot of people and

1:31:00 Thanks, Phil. So have you. Um, I'm so thankful that you made time to share so much advice. I think this is gonna be one of the most popular episodes I've done. I think it's gonna help a ton of people. We're not done yet. Tell us about some of the other stuff that you've got going on. You've mentioned product councils. You've got you do coaching, just so people know what else Might benefit them.

1:31:17 Twenty one years ago. I started these product councils, right? And and by the way, is I I like to show this kind of Marty King and I go back. you know, to the late nineties, early He was actually a client of mine when he was at eBay.

1:31:30 Okay. Yeah. And I'll tell you what happened, we were about to sign a project. And he decided he called me up. I literally we're signing that day. He called me up till I got that news. I mean now I'm leaving. Come on. I'm leaving and I'm starting something. And he started the Silicon Valley product group.

1:31:46 Oh wow. Why am I saying that? Because that was around the time that I started the councils. And I started with Marissa I I basically I went out and did a listening to Erlenny and I said, Listen, I think For those of us left in the digital world after this depression.

1:32:03 I think we need a place to come together that's not a conference with sponsors and people are all Trying to sell each other and We need a private, safe, secure environment to really talk. Does that re resonate with you? Do you want that? And they were like, Yes.

1:32:18 Right. So I started this thing and Martu's been involved from day one. Yeah, over the he he has sent me Something like thirty percent of all the members we've had over the years. We've had a couple of thousand members. He just sends people over, which has been amazing.

1:32:33 And so we have product councils. For VPs and CPOs. We also have an associate council program for ICs and and new managers. We started that a couple of years ago. It it focuses on women and people of color and LGBTQ.

1:32:47 But not exclusively, right? So you can be Yeah. A white guy who's straight, whatever. And you're a product manager. What we care most about is if you're willing to ask for help and

1:32:56 You're really committed to being there for each other. and being a part of this community and active. Right. And so that th that's what I've been doing. Yeah, for for years. And I have a great team and amazing month.

1:33:07 Teresa Torres was one of the moderators of our private councils, by the way. And you know, great friend and spin on the podcast here, as you know, obviously great friend of yours. She asked me to really emphasize asking for help and share some of the stories that I did. She she's she's just been such a

1:33:24 Such an important part of my life. I can't say enough about her. And so that's what we've got those on and and we have CEO groups and we have U X groups. That's my that's my day job. That's sort of what Wait. What pays the bills and I've been doing for twenty plus years now.

1:33:39 But then I also have a series of other learning communities. Right. So I'm just I'm you know, I'm one of these p I like I read. I'm If you have to me like what what what w if you had one job title, what would it be? Reader.

1:33:51 I am I read Lenny. Books are machines to think with. Books are machines to think with. And I'm on a you know campaign to get more people reading more. Yeah, because

1:34:04 And product leaders need to read more. And I have a whole bunch of book recommendations on My Lenny page, by the way. Uh, that are for product leaders and we can talk about a few of those. But I also run Something called the reading odyssey, which is a partnership between scholars and and readers with Harvard.

1:34:19 Cambridge for lifelong learning and curiosity. I w I run the World Business Reading Group. For high school students. It's a high school business literacy, not financial literacy, business literacy program. Based on the philosophy of of Warren Buffett and Charlie Mugger.

1:34:34 And taught by really seeing your executives like partners at venture capital firms. hedge funds and I'm an investor. Like we have this amazing faculty. It's pro bono. We're all volunteer.

1:34:45 We have a small charge for middle class families and it's free for anyone who can't afford it. And it's a summer program and it's going gangbusters. Um What else but slow arday? So

1:34:56 One of the things I teach people is that you need to develop Mentors. Most people do not have mentors, Lenny. Ninety five percent of the people in my community of senior product leaders Do not have mentors.

1:35:10 Okay. I mm. And mentorship programs is like It's like the typewriter. Our parents or grandparents had'em but we don't have them. The companies don't offer One of the ways that you everyone listening to this podcast today can get a mentor.

1:35:24 You can get what I call a dead or distant mentor. Like Warren Buffett is my mentor, he just doesn't know it. Okay. Which is great. I don't have to listen to everything he says. Right, and he had does have to take my calls.

1:35:35 Ha ha. Steve Jobs is my mentor. And when I talk about mentor, I don't mean just hey, I'm a fan or I like the products or I read the The biography. I mean really study. Right. So if you really study jobs.

1:35:47 You have to come to nineteen ninety seven. He's interim CEO. So You know, he was fired from Apple in eighty four. eighty five af actually after the Mac came out.

1:35:58 He wandered the wilderness for ten years. He created a company called Next, which wasn't Next. And then in ninety five, ninety six, Apple buys the operating system from next. And

1:36:10 makes Steve and the company is is is in really bad shape, it makes Steve the interim CEO. Hitroom You wouldn't give him the full title. Y ah, the business is so terrible you're gonna destroy it anyway, but whatever, you'll be interesting.

1:36:23 And he does a bunch of stuff, but he gives a talk in nineteen ninety seven Tattered Whole Genesis. There's three hundred people at the at the you know, developers conference. They all are Pissed off. And he gets up there and he says You have to start with the customer.

1:36:37 Not with the technology. And that's what we're doing it up. And You can't you know, people like talk about that customer like if you really study jobs, that's what he did. And what does that mean?

1:36:50 I can tell you there's a lot of product people, Lenny, who talk about customer and don't really focus. Yeah. And if you really study that moment and study what jobs did, it it can inform your decisions and actions. So one of the things that Jobs also talked about was the power of art. And that everyone needs to go to art museums.

1:37:08 And that that you need to be inspired and it will help you think about design if you create great products. So I started company something called slow article. Right, which has now been in fifteen hundred museums around the world. It teaches people how to slow down and look. And

1:37:23 Especially for Lennings podcast, I am making pre Both The teacher materials The leader materials and the participant Materials

1:37:32 So that all of your podcast listeners who are running product teams can go to a local museum and do an assay. And develop more visual literacy, empathy. connection with each other and an understanding of art that will help them be better product. That is amazing. I am gonna try to do that myself.

1:37:49 Uh it will blow your mind. So you mentioned Marty Kagan and Christian a couple of times and Marty K can described Chris as the most interesting person in the world. I feel like you deserve that title. There's just so you d you're doing so much and so much good and so much variety of things. It's really impressive and

1:38:07 uh the amount of impact you're having is is is wild. Thank you. Yeah, it really means a lot. Just saying it how it is. I'm I'm really thankful you've shared so much wisdom on this podcast with everyone. I think this is gonna help so many people. Yeah.

1:38:22 We're also not done yet. We reached our very exciting lightning round. Bill, are you ready? I am ready for Lightning Room. Here we go. And you've talked about books. I imagine you're gonna have an answer for this. Yes. What are two or three books that you recommended most to other people? Of course I've recommended hundreds, but right now what I recommend is creative destruction.

1:38:43 And I'm gonna give your listeners the link to the right book is by a a group of French economists. It's a it's a little bit academic. But it's so important. It's so important for product people to understand. It is so important It may

1:38:56 More jobs get created because of creative destruction. Not there's not net job loss. There's more jobs created. AI is going to create more jobs, not destroy. Everybody got that wrong. Almost everybody.

1:39:07 Except the people who understood creative destruction. But You have to be close to the frontier. That's where the job creation happens. And product people, you gotta be close to the frontier. You gotta do whatever you can.

1:39:19 If you're at a company that's not close to the frontier Do stuff at You know, I've working at Moody's investor service. Let's I built one of the first two thousand websites back in the early nineties, Lenny. I was doing all this stuff outside of work.

1:39:30 That was bringing me closer to the technical frontier and was changing my candidate market. So I recommend that book. I also, of course, I recommend Marty's books. Now I want to just say again. I don't want you to just read Marty's books.

1:39:43 But you listen to his podcast, the great interview you guys did here at Lenny's. I want you to read and reread those books as if he's your mentor. Okay. And I want you and re reading is important, Lenny. And people said, Oh, I listened two or three times uh speed on the audio book.

1:40:01 I mean you are not going to have that deeply inform your decision making Now what I'll do is I'll read a book and then I'll listen to it. As a reinforcement. Or I'll read it and listen to it at the same time. But you gotta you know the for the important books like.

1:40:16 You gotta read them more. And Marty's books are important. The the last book I'll recommend is the manual. It's a short introduction to stoicism. People misunderstand stoicism. They think stoicism means repressing your feelings. That is not what stoicism means.

1:40:32 It means understanding and accepting your feelings, but not necessarily always being driven by Incorporating Your feelings are an important part of your decision making system, but they shouldn't rule you. And it's a really important book. I recommend I have I have driven a lot of sales with that book'cause I have

1:40:47 I really hammer it home in my book. So if you go on to Amazon you'll see the book that's most bought along with my book is that book, right? I have other books I recommend that are on my website, but those are those are two or three. Amazing. On the uh listening to things at fast speed, I sometimes meet folks that listen to the podcast and they're like

1:41:04 Oh, this is what you sound like at regular speed. 'Cause I just listen to every podcast fast. Second question, do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed? So there's a great new TV show on Apple TV that is not getting the audience that it deserves.

1:41:21 It's called Las Azules. Las Azules, the blues. It's about the first women to recruited onto the police force of Mexico City in nineteen seventy one or two. And it's it's You know.

1:41:36 It of course it speaks to me because Nineteen seventies, these are women in the you know, my mom and how close I was to her and what I I saw the world through my mother's eyes, Lenny, and and it really shaped me. But it's it's it's a grey It's a great T V show. I love that.

1:41:52 Of course I love the show that You know, I I've always recommended and everyone's now seen it, I hope if they haven't. It's been out for a while, but it's um Oh. The name just escaped me.

1:42:03 The American football coach who goes to England and becomes a soccer coach. Oh yeah. Uh How can I forget this? I've recommended it so many times. That's the guy's name, right? The character Ted Lasso. Ted Lasso. Ted Lasso, thank you. So the kindness in there. And by the way, a great message around asking for help in that. The last thing I'll say, of course, is the inside out.

1:42:25 movies the the second one came out this summer. Just the way it's normalizing emotions. Again in in helping us. Start to talk about emotions. Really love that. Okay, what else in the lightning round?

1:42:36 So there's this next question that I cut. I stopped I moved to other questions, but I I wanted to bring it back with you. It's about your favorite interview question. You help a lot of people interview and interview better. I'm curious if there's like a question that you've heard that you really like. If you are interviewee

1:42:52 Right. For a job. And it's a senior level job. I want you to ask, tell me about a time that you, the the company, brought in a senior level person and it failed.

1:43:03 And what? Because they often fail. Bringing senior level people in to companies. So ask them what happened and why and figure out how can we avoid that outcome. Okay.

1:43:14 And and hopefully they're gonna have a good answer. I have a whole bunch of questions in my book, but I love that one. I also love if you are on on the other side, if you're hiring And you wanna get and you wanna check references. I have The most amazing question.

1:43:29 The most amazing question. This and by the way, this is the best thing I learned. In my two years at the Harvard Business School. I learned this in my Running and growing a small business class is like the best thing I learned. It is

1:43:40 If you're if you're if you wanna get references, what you do is you wanna leave a voicemail. Or you could send an email. Whatever. But you don't want And you wanna say. I'm about to hire Lenny.

1:43:51 Okay. If it would be a huge mistake if I didn't bring him on. If you think he's amazing. They call me back. Otherwise don't bother.

1:44:02 And that gets around all the legal blah blah blah blah blah. And it's it's just it cuts through. I love that question. I don't know if that resonates with you as much. Yeah, so it's the idea if you don't hear f back from them, um, they're not necessarily amazing. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

1:44:16 Yeah. So it's you know You're leaving that that space there. And and by the way, I love doing that. For Betchin.

1:44:24 So I want you when you start a job Or when you Or accepting an offer or interviewing. I want you to back channel that possibly talk to people who've work with them if you can. Use your network. And ask them, you know, would you work with this person or And and even say hey if I

1:44:37 If I called you and told me I was interviewing with this guy and you should only call me back. Yep. If you thought I should take the job. Would you have call me back? You know. And so you can do a form of it that way.

1:44:47 You have a favorite product you recently discovered that you really love, whether it's like a digital app I'm gonna give you a very different kind of answer than I would normally get, but I'm hoping you and your community will appreciate this. So I did recently discover it, but it's I mean, talk about a book, Lenny. So

1:45:02 Twenty five years ago. Guy named Robert Strasser. who was a business guy. He started teaching at a special high school for kids who were Dropping out

1:45:13 And he was teaching them some of the classics like Herodotus and Tucydides expert. Excellent. And They couldn't get it and the books were terrible. Because there was no context. So he spent ten years and he reinvented.

1:45:26 The the the format. Of a history book. There are a hundred and twenty maps. Each of them. He drew specifically and they're only relevant to the

1:45:36 Previous one or two pages. Okay. There's a margin summary. In plain English for each paragraph's describing what that paragraph just said. He got the top scholars in the world to write two page appendices.

1:45:49 On their expert topic. Things they've written. Hundreds about yeah, hundreds of pages about You have to do it in two pages. This thing completely destroyed and And by the way, the publishing world wouldn't back it.

1:46:01 He you know, he funded it himself. He hand drew the maps he spent two years. Creating a concept. Index You know, not just uh a a keyword index.

1:46:12 And the And it's just blown apart. Part the whole industry completely disrupted. He sold hundreds of thousands of copies. Of these books.

1:46:21 They are a masterpiece on landmark series, landmark either They have new ones coming out. Every product person, in my opinion. should go look at this and look at the product design of this book. It is masterful.

1:46:34 And it teaches you a lot about Usability and reader experience. and N And I want product people, Lenny, to get out who are doing digital work to get out of the digital world and look at products outside the digital world.

1:46:48 For inspiration and thinking. That you know,'cause I don't want you all looking at the same stuff. Because you're gonna just create the same stuff. So

1:46:56 I love you know, I love tools like Calendly, which I just didn't Yeah, I've been using for years, but no one could get it right until they got it right. Those are great But but that's my it how's that for an answer? That's incredible. W what is it called again and where do you find it? And it's gonna be on the on the Lady page, but it's uh if you do landmark Herodotus or Landmark Thucydides. Yeah, either one you'll get you'll get there. Yeah. Oh my god. Sounds incredible.

1:47:20 Great great choice. Do you have a favorite life motto? That you often like to Think back to and share with friends or family. Of course we talked about asking for help. And I say that a lot. But I also love and I said this earlier.

1:47:32 Books are machines to think with. And as product people, Marty and I talk about this all the time, we have to be Thinking. And if we and people and I coach people I'll say how can I think more? You've got to read more. Because books are machines to think with good books.

1:47:49 There's a lot of bad books in the business world, but good books, you know. Good books, thoughtful books, books that'll help and shift your perspective. Whether it's history or science, like I read I read widely and I want you to do the same. You know. Um

1:48:02 Books are machines to think with. That's that's That's probably one of my greatest life. Final question. Usually I try to make this fun, but I wanted to come back to something practical for people. So

1:48:14 To leave people with something they could do this week to help them find a job or help them improve the chances of finding their job. What's something you'd recommend? I have one very simple thing. Go to Phil dot org and sign up for a job search council. There we go. It's free.

1:48:29 And it will transform your search. Is it a good answer or we're looking for something different, Lenny? That's an incre beautiful answer. It also is exactly what I would have asked you next, which is just where do people go find the stuff you're up to and learn more about things that we've been talking about. Yeah. So there's Phil.org and then there's Phil.org slash Lenny, which has a lot of the templates and things that you reference. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Final actual question. How can listeners be useful to you? That's such a lovely question. So on the Lenny page.

1:48:58 At Phil.org. I outline some ways. So we're gonna we're raising a hundred thousand dollars right now. to build a platform. For job seekers. It will remain free for job seekers.

1:49:09 Part of what I'm doing is I'm doing a speaking tour on AI and I'm taking all my speaking fees and putting it to this. But people can also make a d a donation just Two that They can also volunteer. Um and we and we're looking for

1:49:23 If anyone's a Salesforce admin I'd love to have you. Volunteer with us? If any if you have Really good PHP experience, let me know.

1:49:31 If any of you are really good at type form. Uh, or FormSite, which is a tool I don't like much, by the way. Anyone from FormSite is listening, your tool sucks. You need to Really improved the product there. Um There's a lot of different ways that you can help, but those are some of those some of the things. But you can also

1:49:48 But most importantly Tell someone who who you know in your life who's looking for a job. That there's a community here for you. That's free, that has all these smart tools and resources and people Who are genuinely here to help you.

1:50:03 And it will help transform your search in this very hard moment. People ask me like Is this good in the hard mom? This is born out of hard moments. This It in a great job market, it's easier to say, Oh just take you know, I can just grab a job.

1:50:16 You need to be more thoughtful in the down market. Now I think you should be in the up market too, but this is what this This is this is our This is our moment to be there for people. This is what And I would love So many people still don't know.

1:50:31 Lenny, we want millions of people. We wanna help millions of people. We have this great we have twenty thousand hours of volunteer time already. We won't have millions of hours of volunteer time. We are changing Something about the way capitalism works with this community.

1:50:48 This negative consequence of creative destruction. that people just been left to fend with on their own. Well, I'm excited to be helping spread the word. Phil, you're wonderful. Thank you. So much for being here.

1:51:00 Thank you, Lenny. Bye, everyone. Bye. Thank you, everybody. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast.

1:51:20 You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show. At Lenny's podcast dot com. See you in the next episode.

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