Why Avoiding a Fight is Killing Your Relationship (and How to Fight Well) | Priya Parker

0:00 So most of us think avoiding a fight is the peaceful choice. Peter Parker says it's actually letting the real relationship die. In favor of a surface calm, That costs you everything real underneath it. And once you hear her case for why healthy relationships and communities are

0:18 Need healthy conflict? you won't be able to unsee the fights that you've been avoiding. In this conversation you'll discover why The belief that quote good people don't fight has quietly wrecked more relationships than actual conflict ever has We'll talk about the concept of relational longing.

0:35 And how to find it underneath a disagreement that feels like it's about nothing? And we'll explore the three phases every healthy fight moves through. And what each one actually requires of you. We'll talk about a single phrase to listen for in any group or relationship. That reveals what it's really trying to become, and

0:54 And why? Giant sequoia trees. Can't reproduce without fire and what that has to do with your marriage, your family, your relationships, or your team. Our guide is a claim facilitator and author Peter Parker. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. and we'll jump right in after this short break.

1:22 back. Time to wake up the group chat. And catch up with old friends. Even the bumpy ones. What a baby. Because when football's back. So are we. Sky Sports is your home of football. Join us for over 1,500 matches this season across the Premier League, WSL, SPFL, and more. For only 20 euro of a month for 12 months. Go to sky.ae slash sports. New Sky Sports customers only standard pricing applies after 12 months further terms apply. This is David and John from the David McWilliams podcast, telling you about an exciting opportunity from FBD Insurance.

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2:26 That's FBD.ie forward slash dreams. Closing date is fifteenth of October 2026. Terms and conditions apply, FPT Insurance PLC is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland. Imagine a place where you can escape for a day. Get immersed in a world of rooms, inspiration and expertise. Where you can lazy luxury accommodation. And kids can feast from ninety five, said.

2:54 Tickets are free to everyone and include all the attractions. You just imagine a day out at Ikea. Ikea the wonderful everyday. And you have spent Years watching groups come together and

3:13 Also fall apart. you know, companies, communities, uh uh Individuals, marriages, friendships, You make a counterintuitive argument in your new work about conflict. What is the thing

3:30 that you now believe about conflict that maybe most people have completely backwards. that Conflict. Is not Dysfunction.

3:42 Break that down for me. So You know, and and it's so nice to be back in conversation with you. You were one of my very first conversations when I first wrote The Art of Gathering. And I'm so delighted to be back with you. I feel like you you always host me into these moments of transition and my work. And so it's really a pleasure to be with you. Um, you know, I am a conflict averse.

4:08 conflict resolution facilitator. Yeah. And I grew up in a uh in a family that both my mother and father were conflict averse um when They

4:21 they eventually separated and divorced and when they uh announced that they were when they told people they were separating, everyone was shocked. Because they never fought. And so I learned from a young age and and and sort of uh kicking and screaming to get better at conflict because I learned and I saw that there's great loss and avoidance. And I became a config resolution facilitator in college and part of

4:53 What I've been interested in and looking at for now decades is How Do we fight? With those we want

5:02 to belong to. And one of the things that I began to see as I took this question front and center in my new book, The Art of Fighting is that one of the reasons

5:17 That we don't fight is because we believe it is immoral. Or we believe it is wrong, or we believe it's dysfunctional, right? Like so many sense like we're fighting, we're so dysfunctional, or it's a dysfunctional family, or a dysfunctional team, or And Part of what I began to learn as I looked at how groups grow and change, as I look at how organizations that get through crisis evolve.

5:43 Is that Conflict is actually highly functional. It's deeply necessary. And one of the things that I've learned as a now conflict resolution facilitator for more than two decades. Is that long lasting communities

5:56 that are relevant and vibrant and people want to be a part of Need love. And they also need conflict. And that

6:07 Healthy communities Have healthy conflict. And there's a thousand re ways to get there, and there's a thousand reasons that we often don't get there. But part of what kind of blew my mind as I decided to sort of take this question front and center was Of how do we fight with those we belong to, we want to belong to.

6:27 is that we have to first pause and actually Examine. This idea that conflict is dysfunctional, and that actually the only way to get to relevance to get to a group or relationship you want to be a part of that you have buy and for where people understand what their roles are, why they're part of it. Is actually through conflict, is through fighting, is through asking these core fundamental questions together who are we?

6:54 What do we want to be? How do we do this? And it turns out You can't avoid that step. to figure out and to become the best versions of your collective self. Yeah. So if I understand it's sort of like you're saying we have this precon like preconception of This is what fighting looks like and this is what it will inevitably lead to. And it's all it's hard

7:18 It's uncomfortable and it's bad. So we back away from it. But what you're inviting us to to to consider is Um That actually a and I think underlying this often is the opposite of conflict is peace. But

7:32 I think what I really hear you saying underneath this is That That's not true at all. Yeah. The c conflict if we look at it.

7:43 A conflict is relevance. Conflict is People don't fight about things they don't care about. Right? Then they leave. And or they don't pay attention.

7:55 And and Conflict Is What I one of the people I interviewed for the art of fighting is a conflict practitioner called Say Tunair.

8:05 And She's a brilliant facilitator and one of the things she said to me was I said, You know, she's called into the hardest fights to facilitate group fights. So she'll be called in the real example, um to a local government agency. that um erupted in an uh so called flag war.

8:23 Where um within the agency, this was during the summer of twenty twenty, Black Lives Matter's flag started popping up on people's desks and then Blue Lives Matters. flags started popping up on people's desks in this agency and she was brought to come in to kind of the the director of the agency banned flags, right? But had the vision to realize like just because you ban an action doesn't mean that there hasn't been fabric.

8:48 torn right between coworkers. So Sunair is the kind of facilitator who's brought in to facilitate a a circle, um, in a context like that. Like super complex and sh and she does beautiful work. And I asked her. What do you And she says I always look for and see where I can find

9:11 The relational longing. I start In any group. of tapping into the relational longing. And if you can tap into the relational longing that's still there You can

9:23 You can You can do all sorts of things. And so part of like the core part of as a conflict resolution facilitator, I'm not called into groups that don't wanna work it out. Right? That that that leads that they just they just leave. Or or people sort of

9:41 Fighting with the quote unquote other. I specifically and most facilitators are brought in because at some level, even if there's difference, there's enough of a desire to kinda want it want to work it out. And so part of conflict and part of this process is part of the opportunity. is to help a group basically Realize that may there's a lot of

10:03 you know, love here, or there's a lot of relevance here, or there's a lot of heat here. But maybe it's not any longer in the right form or in the right structure. And we need to actually have a conversation to make some changes. Yeah. I mean that concept of relational relational longing was the phrase. Mm-hmm. That that um that just lands. So like I it took me a second to try to figure out if I think I actually even understand what that is, but it sounds like It tell me if I'm getting this right. It is that within the group, within the individuals Even though there may be this surface level um disagreement, conflict, um, what seems like something that is just, you know, everyone's at each other.

10:40 That underneath if there's still a fabric. within the individuals th there's something like a pulse that says I want this to work out. I want to be back in healthy relationship. Yes. If you're trying to weave a fabric, I would call it an urge. An urge or a desire, right? The sense of I I still I want to be in rel I care about this person. I want to be in relationship with this person, maybe not in this form. But that there's still a longing there. I mean, going on this example with Say Tunaire, I write about this in the book.

11:14 She uh she went in to this uh this local government agency in New York City and She Basically there was twenty participants as voluntary. So they they um it was twenty participants from this office where there the sort of fly war, so called fly war erupted.

11:33 And they came in and they had I think six hours together. And her job as a facilitator was basically trying to help them Help help them. Make it not not such a difficult place to work and to start

11:47 sort of understanding And restoring them. to each other. And um And she does all sorts of things and I write about in the book, but the the moment of breakthrough

11:59 was when they stopped talking about what's happening out there in the country. what they're that's the moment they stop talking about what's happening on what they're seeing on Fox or what they're seeing on MSNBC or what they've seen the president do, like they stop that is not a helpful conversation for this room. And when they actually start getting into the specificity Of What does it

12:19 How has it how has this flag war specifically made it hard for you To show up to work. And when she asked the super specific question, by the way, these are colleagues who have worked together, many of them for twenty years. And the breakthrough moment it's one of for it's one of the most beautiful moments in the book for me. It was when she ba and and a lot of the the local uh government agency is full of both

12:47 Uh Like police law enforcement. and social workers. So it's a it's sort of this this this rift sort of was emerging between like who are we really for in this office. And Um

12:59 a a la a a former cop, self described former cop on his day off was so kind of troubled by what has happened with between and across all of his colleagues. He came in on his day off to be part of the circle and this and and sh and when she asked this question, you could kinda see him get choked up. He she could see him get choked up. And she and he says, You know I've been in this office for more than a decade. And I have so many friends in this office, and every day

13:27 One of the things I most loved was I walk over. To one of my colleagues And it's clearly someone on the other side of the sort of the flag symbology. And I walk over and I would lean my Elbows. On her desk.

13:40 And we'd always chat. And after this Fla this incident happened. I walked in and I realized she had barricaded her desk. With plants.

13:52 in the space my elbow used to go. And you can feel just the whole room, right? You can feel it now. Ca sort of drop into like, oh And you could feel his grief. And you could feel the sorrow and he was an actual person with this very specific role, but also that has many identities and like all of us, but in that moment, the core purpose of this conversation was as colleagues. And because she could tap into the relational longing, there was a possibility there.

14:26 For them to begin to have the conversation. that could actually ex expand For each of them and for all of them, what does it mean to work here? And how do we do this together? Mm. Yeah, I mean that lands in what you're describing in a group environment like this happens to have been

14:42 A work environment. I would imagine it this could be the same thing in a family environment. This could be the same thing between You like two intimate partners. It could be the same thing between uh like parent and child. Almost anyone you can imagine. It's It's the same dynamic that really translates, right? Every relationship that we choose to be in

15:02 Over the long term. Well Will change. And part of either getting to that change or navigating it, even forget conflict, just change, just time, time in and of itself, right? Between parent and child, between siblings, between spouses, like Where and how do we negotiate as things are changing. What how do we want this to be? Am I happy? Is this how I want and they can also just be super simple. Like how do we spend our Friday nights

15:29 Our kids are now teenagers, there's all sorts of needs coming in. How do we sp spend our Friday nights and who decides? Right? For a lot of families, that is a heated question. Right? And so part of the skill and part of the invitation, and again, I say this as a conflict averse person. Uh who is learning like a lamb to walk to to be in healthy heat with my own and my life, and my relationships and in my work. Is

15:55 The only w way in these relationships to sort of Figure out the next form of how we want to spend our time, how it's simple stuff. How we want to spend our time. What how do we what money do we want to spend on stuff? What night of week do we want to

16:11 mm, you know, meet. I mean it this is not existential, but this is actually the infrastructure of shared life. And so in modern life, part of our challenge is we all kind of make up how we spend time together. And so this book in a lot of ways is actually a book like the Art of Gathering. For modern life. When we don't have inherited ways of being and we don't have inherited ways of fighting

16:35 But we need to build bridges towards one another. To be able to be in thick, deep, whether it's relationships or whether it's being part of an amazing team. But you can't actually get Two

16:47 That right form without A storm without with Bruce Tuckman, this the sociologist who writes about groups, without storming, without asking, how do we want to do this and who decides? Yeah. So it's almost like um Complete avoidance.

17:02 many of us would perceive as like this is the peaceful option, this is the quote, neutral option, right? But what y' you're saying is no actually conflict avoidance is It's more of an act of choice to Almost Let the real

17:17 Relationship or relational longing die. In favor of some sort of surface level, often superficial and not lasting peace While everything that's real underneath it. Kind of withers because it's not getting

17:31 What it needs. Does that land? I will also say Not all fights are worth facing. Yeah. So

17:38 My in the Art of Fighting, the first third of the book is actually about assessing what kind of fight you're in and deciding whether to face or not. And so there is there are absolutely fights that are not worth facing. Dr. Mercer calls um strategic conflict avoidance. One of the people I interviewed for um for the book is a guy called Michael Hebb, and one of the I he one of the things he told me when he gets in a fight with a friend that he asks himself if whether or not it's it's it's worth facing is

18:09 Do I want to be closer. To this person. Mm. And sometimes you don't need to be closer to a person, so it may not actually be worth the effort. But if you're wanting

18:21 to be closer to that friend. If you're wanting to be to have a m to m to have more intimacy with w whoever it is, if you wanna be a more functional team or group. the idea that conflict is Is a threat. Is Uh

18:39 Is misguided. Yeah. Instead of a threat. I mean it may well be a gateway if if exactly if you're making that that choice, like that this matters and I wanna be in it. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Right.

18:57 back time to wake up the group jazz and catch up with old friends even the bumpy ones want a baby because when football's back So are we. Sky Sports is your home of football. Join us for over 1,500 matches this season across the Premier League, WSL, SPFL, and more. For only 20 euro a month for 12 months. Go to sky.ai slash sports. New Sky Sports customers only standard pricing applies after 12 months for the terms apply. This is David and John from the David McWilliams podcast, telling you about an exciting opportunity from FBD Insurance. So if you've got a business dream for twenty twenty seven, FBD wants to hear it.

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20:43 Security and insurance is required. Permanent TSP PLC trading as PTSP is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland. I wanna sort of drop into your approach too, but before we get there Um you also write uh about this image, giant sequois. Um like the largest trees in the world, um I have had the great pleasure of walking among them and felt it stunning awe that like a tiny little human being feels when you're in this. Um

21:12 They live something like three thousand years. But they can't reproduce without fire. Walk me through that and why What's the lesson in the context of conflict here? I was actually explaining my um

21:28 my book, this is years ago and I was researching to a friend um of mother of a friend of mine And she was listening very closely. I said, You know, conflict can actually help a group really figure out who it is. Ca conflict can help a family Often there are moments of Um There are moments where people think there shouldn't be fights, but there's a lot of fights like after a death of a

21:49 patriarch at mo of weddings, like moments we're like, We're not supposed to be fighting now. And I said, But this is there's it also it clears a lot of space and she looked at me and she's a biologist and she said Oh. Well, that's also true in nature. Mm.

22:04 She said, You should check out What forests of giant sequoias do The largest trees in the world. And They cannot reproduce without fire.

22:18 And she gave me, she gifted me this metaphor. She said fire clear space on the fourth floor. Letting in light and water for new seedlings to take hold and grow. It clears away the leaves that have been built up on the ground so seeds can root into big Bare mineral rich soil. And the heat even opens up older cones, release releasing fresh seeds.

22:41 And just as there are seeds that require fire to germinate, groups often require some amount of heat. to sort of come back into a sense of relevance and purpose. And you can absolutely have a forest fire that, as we've seen, burns the whole house, you know, burns the it needs to be a controlled fire. Um, and needs to be sort of within the right natural environment, but the ecosystem needs to be healthy. All of that, you can absolutely have unhealthy fire. But The avoidance of fire will also

23:11 kinda Kill the so called forest. Mm. Yeah, it's like it it can't grow. If it rages too in it uh too too big or uncontrolled, it destroys everything.

23:22 Um, but if it never happens in a way that is manageable, um growth ends and eventually um Death ensues. I one of my favorite um interviews uh that I've heard was with the radio host Krissa Tippett, and she was interviewing the Brazilian writer Hello, Coolo.

23:42 And she said to him, um How have you been married to the same woman for two years? I don't know, forty years. And she pa and he pauses and he says

23:56 And I'm not the same man. And and I remember listening, I'm like, What do you mean she's not this oh right, she's changed. And so have I and she and he said to her And we've had many, many, many troubles, many problems, but every time we pause and we look and And we say basically this house no longer the house we built

24:17 No longer fits us. But I love you, that relational longing, and you still love me. And so let's rebuild the house. Right. And so th you can use different metaphors, but it's sort of like you need to renovate a home or a building or a structure after many years. You need Sequois need fire and just like that with with groups, with friendships, with relationships. If you're a part of a community, if you're part of a

24:39 sports team, if you're part of an association, if you're part of a swimming club. At some level, groups need infrastructure. And that infrastructure is a creative act. You have to decide who are we? Who do we let in? Who do we not let in? What are we about? How long should a meeting be? Like again, I'm not even talking about super complicated identity based conflict. Just like sort of good old How do we coordinate? Mm-hmm. And

25:06 And every group needs to go through what Bruce Tuchman calls the storm. In the beginning, you enter a new college or high school, you enter a new group, your so new member orientation, you apply, right? In some places, there's a formula of I want to be part of this group because or even with friendship, like, oh, we have a great vibe, right? You are you are able to articulate and declare right your intentions metaphorically. But off but in groups and when things need to change or in a relationship There's no for v there's very few opportunities to basically say, Hey I wanna change. I wanna change here. It comes up, you back into it.

25:43 Through conflict. And so part of what I've tried to do in my own relationships and my work and then help w in my as a facilitator is to just pause and when P when when conflict comes up To first help people not see this as a total disaster and a moral failure.

26:00 But the second is to get curious and to say, huh. In a way, almost maybe this is an opportunity to quote unquote declare what we think is needed now. Um One of the one of the tools I give in the book I I call it the we're not a clause.

26:16 And uh the were not a clause is something I notice as a as a facilitator, but also as a friend in groups. where if you hear people sort of arguing about something and um You know, say s it could be a couple having a group of people over for dinner and cooking for them and people's you know, coming in with a thousand different requests for whether it's allergies or preferences, and someone may say We're not a restaurant.

26:41 I'm not making twelve different meals for twelve different people, right? But you will hear often what people say we're not, and you should listen for that clause because it's the beginning of an opportunity to redefine and to refresh what it is you are and want to be. Yeah. One of the characters, one of the examples I look at the book over many years is the Burning Man founders, the founders of this sort of thing. You know, um uh gathering in the desert over decades, very unlikely gathering. And Um, they've had uh uh as all good founders will

27:14 mm every every few years, like really deep existential fights, like what is this place? Can we have a hierarchy? What should we pay ourselves? Is this utopia? Can you create an ex intern external equality and have an internal hierarchy? Like really, what what should tickets cost be? Should there be a lottery system? And I was watching one of their board meetings on a on a documentary and listening to the fight of the board meeting. And this is like what facilitators do. We just like listen to reams and reams of fights.

27:46 Sounds like so much fun. And I was listening to this I mean, it's very rare to get a great board meeting and a great fight. on audio because you can actually then listen to like what are the moments of breakthrough. So somehow this documentary filmmaker cut was you know got caught this fight and one of Steven Raspa that one of the um One of the core members of Burning Man.

28:07 You can be heard on camera saying We're not a festival. We're not a festival. How how many years have we kept saying we're not a festival, we don't do programming, we're not Disney World, we're not a festival And that was actually listening to that documentary was like, but we're not a clause. And I realized it was something that I hear in groups all the time. So so if you're listening if you're thinking about Moments. where people actually have an opportunity to kind of define what they are. First it is often in conflict, and second, listen out for the we're not a claim.

28:36 I love that. Let's drop a little bit into um The how. of healthy conflict. You You talk about and you're right, that oftentimes there's sort of like these three

28:49 Broad faces. that people move through in healthy conflict. We call it a framework, um for lack of a better word. Yeah, there's there's the the tear phrase of it, the grapple phrase of it, and then the cleave phase of it. I want to drop into each one of these and tease out a little bit what they are and how we actually implement them. Let's start out with With tear. Um what is this? So

29:11 Tear is the first third I I basically wanted to write a guide. That demystifies the phases of conflict. And I chose

29:24 Many, many groups that people assume are a monolith. So like a hundred and twenty year old swimming club. a queer Asian tygo drumming circle. A

29:37 Boy Scout troop, right? Not not A football team. And to normalize conflict. And part and so the first phys of this guide is looking at uh the moment where a group experiences a tear.

29:52 Yeah. what sometimes we call a triggering a triggering event can create some kind of Uh explosion or implosion. And you need to Understand what you have on your hands.

30:05 And so Tears tend to happen at specific moments. Tears often happen. at moments of uh uh uh uh moments in which the group And how things work.

30:19 become visible. Two Or obvious to the group. When the implicit becomes explicit. And I call these forcing

30:29 mechanisms. So forcing mechanism is a moment of high pressure. Observable by the groups. That forces decisions To be made.

30:39 Renovations. Well, we have the s we have the space, should it go to the You know, should it be the kids room or should it be the music library, right? These are actually values. Milestone events. Uh

30:51 Weddings. Elections. A lineup. And a baseball team. Wait, what's the batting order? The who who who gets who gets, you know, in a in a play, which who like the roster.

31:05 So forcing mechanism are moments that contain dozens of decisions that will impact the group and reflect its values, which is often why people often when I work in teams or organizations like we're just gonna do a Thirtieth anniversary for our company. This is supposed to be a happy moment. Like why is everyone fighting? Well 'Cause all of a sudden you have a stage. And you may have three days or three hours.

31:29 And you have to decide who speaks for us. And what are they gonna say? And which products are we gonna elevate? to say these are who we've been for those thirty years. Right? It's small P political or in a family wedding. Do we allow kids?

31:45 Why or why not? Do people get to bring plus ones? Who decides? Who is this fundamentally for? Which rituals do we bring from and so a wedding, right? It's this high pressure moment. It's not because the you know, these sort of stereotyps of like the Bridezilla or it's actually It's actually really important for families to act but there's so few modern mechanisms.

32:07 To allow a group to ask again to your earlier point of like who are we now? And also Like For often for that. generation getting married is often the first time they have an any amount of power to have some amount of influence as to say, Who are we now? What does it mean to be a Parker now? What does it mean to be a Narayan now? Which and then it's visible by the shared community, which is why I feel so high stakes.

32:35 And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. Mm. back. Time to wake up the group chess. And catch up with old friends. Even the bumpy ones. What a baby. Because when football's back. So are we.

32:54 Sky Sports is your home of football. Join us for over 1500 matches this season across the Premier League, WSL, SPFL, and more. For only 20 euro a month for 12 months. Go to sky.ae slash sports. New Sky Sports customers only standard pricing applies after 12 months for the terms apply. This is David and John from the David McWilliams podcast, telling you about an exciting opportunity from FBD Insurance. So if you've got a business dream for twenty twenty seven, FBD wants to hear it. Their feeling business dreams competition is back, shining a spotlight on small businesses across Ireland. Fifteen lucky businesses will each receive a thirty thousand euro marketing support package and become one of the stars of their twenty twenty seven campaign.

33:39 That's amazing. To enter, visit FBD.ie forward slash dreams and share your ambitions for twenty twenty seven. That's FBD. Closing date is fifteenth of october twenty twenty six. Terms and conditions apply. FPT Insurance PLC is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland. Yeah. And I don't want to gloss over what you shared also.

34:01 Which is this also tends to be the moment, the trigger where the implicit becomes explicit. The invisible becomes visible and oftentimes I would imagine tell me if this is right. But before that moment.

34:15 There may have been this underlying assumption that we're all working on the same set of values, the same assumptions, the same beliefs Even though everybody feels in different ways, that's probably not true. And then there's this thing that happens, there's this moment which reveals the fact then actually we're not on the same page. Even if it's stated on a mission statement or on a an agreement between partners or whatever it may be. Like and

34:40 But it's it everyone's kinda known, but it's always been just bubbling beneath the surface and something happens, there's a rupture that says No, like this is breaking out and now we actually have to deal with this. Yes. And it can be super simple. Like one of the reasons I love gatherings and I'm interested in them as a conflict resolution facilitator is because gatherings contain all sorts of conflict in them. Like I'm interested in them because gathering is line drawing. Who is in, who is out. And so so I mean, simple example, years ago Uh, I was for my first child w planning a baby shower.

35:13 And Uh, my father called me. Upset. And he said, I can't believe you didn't invite So and so to your baby shower.

35:23 I can't believe I'm bringing caller Marsha. I can't believe you didn't invite Marcia to your baby shower. Nil thinking. Why would I invite Marcia to my baby shower? I think my my It was and it was like my step brother's wife

35:36 Like I wasn't particularly close to my step brother, let alone his wife. There was there's no problem between us. But we lived Mm. in totally different parts of the country. We lived different lives. Like we we didn't have an active or engaged relationship. She wasn't part of my support circle. I wasn't part of her support circle. There was nothing there's no beef or anything between us. It was just sort of like

35:57 There was no charge there. Like she's she's not one of my people, I'm not one of her people. But again, no offense. That happens in many multi, you know, complex multiple marriage families. And so I thought about it. And I but and I and I and the conversation, his being upset. And him saying something to me, which I know is a big deal for him to say something.

36:18 Prompted me to think through my own set of questions. So anyway, I I end up not inviting her. And I think we're both fine with that. But actually the person I needed to repair with Was my father? Hm.

36:33 And so months later, maybe even a year later, you know, it's intense to have a baby. It's intense to you know, it's it's everyone's going through these changes. And as we sat we sat in a coffee shop in Philadelphia, maybe like more than a year later, and I remember him saying this and I have permission to share this. It's it's in the book, but I I remember him saying to me I think of my circle of my family. As the eleven of you. Yeah.

36:57 And he meant His children from his combined family had His spouses Their children. And he says, and it extends to you and Anand, my husband. And I was listening, I was really listening.

37:09 And we're getting to the heart of it. And I said to him, Dad, I understand that. But my circle isn't Your circle.

37:19 I have a different circle. Right. And And he sat there and he was upset. And his face was red.

37:29 And he was teary eyed, but he was listening. You know, and and I s and he said, Well, I wish you would make it your circle. And you can hear you can hear the tension there, right? It's like I'm at a d you I I Like that, but we were having the right fight. Right. We were able we right, we were at the core of it. And I could sell even from his reaction, he wasn't totally getting it.

37:54 But that was okay. Right, I was presenting a different Defining circle than he was. And we could both let those things Those desires

38:02 sit side by side and still be in relationship with each other. And so part there's like a tiny little moment, but part of these Part of these like pe uh all of us getting upset is what you were saying earlier, is these mental models, it's these assumptions rising up and then being shocked Right? That we have different assumptions of what a baby shower is, who should be invited, what our obligations are. And and often between and between generations, It's a c it is conflict because

38:29 I mean I see this in as an Indian American, my mother's Indian, like Even in other cultures. The assumption your parents make all sort have all sorts of obligations to their peers and their friends and their families and then the wedding comes And it's like is it the next generation's

38:46 obligation to fulfill their parents. Debts, right? Or is this fundamentally about the new generation? That's conflict, small C conflict. And so part of part of the power of this is when we When we can just It's terrif I mean, I find it terrifying. Maybe maybe not everyone finds it terrifying, but to actually pause because you care about the relationship.

39:08 And realize we want different things. How do we have a conversation about it? How do we hold each other, even if it's terrifying, or hold the hold the question together. you can actually start moving through as a family. Yeah. I mean it's interesting too, like you just Yeah, we started out in talking about this sort of like the first phase that you often describe, the the tear phase, really understanding what is the rupture, what is the trigger, what happened here, and and you moved us into sort of like this next phase where you're grappling. you're grappling with what's going on and and part of what you're describing under this I and I think a lot of people just get the word grappling we've got to actually like

39:42 figure this out. Like we literally have to work our way through it. Yeah. There's this excavation phase that you talk about, which you just described, where you're kinda saying What is this what really happened here? What is this fight actually about? And and because I think often We don't really know. Yes.

39:58 Yes. The question that I ask so in Grapple is Is What is the need for Like

40:07 Like we almost we're almost distracted by the set of events. Right, and if I and and this and sort of pausing and asking, what is the need here? And particularly for a group fight, you can do this in one on one. Um But particularly in a group fight, often when I work with groups that that are trying to sort through whether it's an organization that's been through some kind of reckoning or whether it is a political movement that's sort of bringing together its leaders that have been you know

40:34 Arguing for decades. To pause and I do this with with all my clients and just ask first. What is the need for What is the what I call the capital N need and of the actual group in this moment.

40:46 And it may not be to talk about the explosion. the explosion may be a symptom, right? And at some deeper level I mean, I took me a s while to get to this, but I realized with this example of the baby shower, the need at some level I mean I never articulated this before, but I think it was to Like to be in relationship with my father without having his definition of

41:10 Uh how I should be spending my time be my definition of how I should be spending my time, or his definition of who my circle should be, be my definition of who my circle would be. A and and so At first asking in a group in a in a In the grable phase, what is the need?

41:28 And then and then and then A need is small P political. Not everyone may agree on a need. And and often the loudest voices get heard first or um or or the people with most power don't actually understand what's happening. I have a simple example in the book. I actually love this example. It's a English law firm. That

41:49 Um years ago, uh it was then during the f the World Cup in Qatar. And They had a Slack channel that was called Elephant in the Room. And they encouraged people that if they had something they wanted to ask about the the organization, I think it was like

42:04 Forty or sixty sixty members at that point. Um Put it into the Zoom and a new intern. Was had just during that summer and was kinda shocked To find out that

42:16 Not only was the law firm watching the World Cup Uh during office hours and people were wearing English d jerseys and all the stuff But but that they were so s that everyone that kinda work stopped and he was Like many people in his generation kind of horrified that the

42:34 World Cup was getting was being played in Qatar, where being gay is illegal, where there had been death. Like there was all of this there was all of this Uh sort of problematic parts of in this younger person's mind about About the world cup. And so he popped into the un you know, maybe innocently and naively popped into the

42:56 The the the slack. Something like can we please not Like watch the World Cup during working hours, particularly given their like Human rights. You're these sort of human rights failures.

43:08 And He didn't know it. But he had hit A third he had kicked, he's kicking a third rail. He's kicking a core part of this law firm's sense of usness. Which is this is a group for years, a group of partners who for years, whether it's the World Cup or whether it's the Wimbledon, whatever it is, like, they're watching their sports together. It's also very English, right? This is and and and

43:32 Long story short And also took a while for those with most power, the partners, to even know that this was happening, that there had become there was sort of this kerfuffle around it uh i within the office, in part'cause they weren't on Slack. Like the the partners EA literally like printed out the

43:49 the slack to sh uh like showed it on to her and on on their phone. And and and they They sent out this is what what is not to do, they sent out uh like a s a s a staff wide save the date email to have the entire staff Talk about whether or not To watch the World Cup.

44:08 in the office. And and part and I I teach through this lesson because Part of what they didn't do. was i in good intentions of like let's have everyone talk about this with good intention. They're like let's just do it all out. We used to be a small group, right? Why not was bring everyone together? And what they should have done is pause and asked What is the need here?

44:30 What does the group need? And how do you figure out what is the actual worthy grapple? Right, is this s is this someone who just needs to be educated into our culture? Or is this something or or how do we how do we as an or as a community, as an organization, as a partnership? have conversations about our face moments where our new members

44:53 are bristling. At some of our cultural practices. Yeah. Seem outdated. Right, and that's not a conversation for everyone, but

45:05 beginning to have group intelligence is to ask every single time first What is the need here? So I guess my Curiosity is what's the question beneath the question there? Like Had it had because

45:16 I would imagine if you if you just go to the group or you go to the individual and say, like, Well, what is the need here? You're gonna get a whole lot of Confusion. How do we actually get it? Right. How do we actually get to that? Like what's the question underneath that that actually elicits what the real need is. So that you have something Tangible.

45:34 to respond to. There's different ways you can ask the question. I call it the craft of excavation. And this is really for I would say larger groups. Um This is for uh it could be something like you have a family reunion and

45:51 Uh you've been coming together for in the same way or Thanksgiving you've been coming together in the same way for a decade. And it's it's there's enough people are feeling that this is no longer really working, but feeling like Kicking the You know, what is it? Kicking the wasp's nest. But it's also not worth suggesting we no longer have it at grandma's house. You know, like it it it's this is good for comp like semi complex groups. Where again you care about something but

46:15 But something's not going well. And one of the problems, one of the challenges of group fights is when you start talking about it. It will grow. Right. And so each of these things as a conduct c resolution facilitator needs to be done with a lot of care. And so Part of

46:32 The first question is really what is like What is the I mean what I ask again and again is like what is the deepest need? And I asked this to different parts of the group, what do you think the actual need is here? And sometimes we engage in this process of ritual asking, like, what is your What is the need of the group? What is the need of and people may say, like, I don't know, is the need of the group to have more trust? Is it to is it to um

46:57 change how we gather? Is it to not be totally boring? Uh but you you hear all of these these these answers. And then but part of what you you sort of have to dig and dig and dig. But then you need to dig with care and in a way that builds trust. So the so first is What are you asking people? Say you're trying to reimagine your family's Passover or your Thanksgiving or some some kind of family reunion where clearly it's no longer working, whether it's'cause of a setup, whether it's because of how you do it.

47:24 But you don't want to lose it all together. Where and how do you begin to with care? sort of dig and figure out can we sh sh change this ship. So first what is being asked? Like what are you actually asking people?

47:37 The second is who's asking. Right, for in a in a let's say it's an extent family or if it's an organization, different people have different levels of trust, right? Dem different people have different social capital. So who's actually doing the asking? Is it a beloved is it someone beloved, is it someone no one trusts? Is it an outsider, is it an insider? Um Who is actually being asked? So one of the things I write about in the book is called the dotted line.

48:01 uh problem, which is like who is actually part of a group. So when I asked different members of like a friend group that it was exploding after thirty years. Everyone's well, you know, she sort of left in college and was no longer part of a group. Or like actually, well, she moved out of the country, so never but is she part of the group? Right, or in an organization like well are the consultants part of a group. So who is actually part of the group? Uh uh what is who is being asked and how is it gonna be asked? And then what's happening with that information? And so Part of the excavation process is if you are thinking it like a facilitator, this is what we do in organizations. But then I have this interlude that basically talks about the power of gossip. And that in many or g and many families and many communities We think again like conflict that all gossip is bad.

48:46 And so part also of th holding this with care is really thinking about what conversations do we need to have in order to Change something we all care about. Mm. I mean that all lands in a lot the the the questions that you just offer, I think are just are s Super important.

49:03 And while the question seemed fairly straightforward. Answering them may not be. Yeah. Like who do we actually ask here? Yes. Maybe I actually need

49:14 To think about that. And Yep, but I wonder if like in the in the heat of conflict you just wanna get to it so quickly that you're just like who's the person? Oh, it's that person, it's the oldest, it's the most senior, it's a Um

49:29 Rather than just sort of like Breathing for a moment and saying Yes. Like who really? Who really breath is conflict in every stage of the That makes so much sense. Um

49:41 The last phase of is really interesting, Cleve, right? Um It is the aftermath and a what's often known as a contrym, right. It's a word that means multiple things and can mean. multiple actions or decisions in this context. Take me a little bit into that.

50:02 I love this word, uh cleave, and it a contronym is a word that contains within it its opposite. So cleave means both to cut. And it means to bind or to cling to. And so the final third of the book is called Cleave.

50:19 Uh, I was so pleased, you know? As a writer I was like, that word really works. Um, and so the final third of the book is really looking at the life cycle of a group, which is what actually happens once you've gone through this fight Once you decided to face, once you kind of do the facing and you come out of it, everyone's maybe a little bit raw or sore, or maybe people feel incredibly relieved. What do you what what then? And then in mo particularly for for Um

50:46 for conflicts you come out and particularly if People have been altered. by the conversation, right? You've actually been changed, or you've been moved, or you've been it's some you new information has come to um the surface that you didn't realize Then there's this question, which is Do we stay?

51:03 And change. Or do we close? Or as an individual, do I exit? And so part of this sort of aftermath is Um

51:13 Is first is actually meaning making. Again, our saying at the very beginning we're terrified of conflict and think like this is really dysfunctional. But actually right after a fight, it can also feel again like why did I do that? Is I Brene Brown, you know, has this term the vulnerability hangover. We can also have conflict hangovers and feel like, Oh, that was such a mistake. Why did we even touch it? That is a normal thing. I whenever I work in groups or organizations I always say Like Within the next three days you're gonna have deep regret. And then it'll pass, right? That's like it's a very, very normal feeling.

51:44 And so in that in that fur in that phase after I I talk a lot about holding the aftermath and doing a lot of meaning making, helping people like frame what they did as courageous. and as an act of investment in each other, and as an act of leadership, and as an act of understanding how to have healthier relationships and skills. But then you kinda come to a moment and you have to sort of decide like as an individual like do I am I is this still does this group still hold water for me? One of the one of the characters, one of those one of the people I write about in this book

52:17 is a woman who was part of a tyco drumming circle for more than a decade and for a decade it was like it became sort of the center of her life and She and and as she thought about it and why she joined it, she thought it wasn't just about the tyco, it was about all of the questions that this group as a dance troupe had to ask together that were the questions she Held.

52:40 Can what what should their costumes look like? Which was actually a really interesting question for her to ask of what does it mean to to be a Asian woman? What does it mean to present? What does it mean to do this really masculine, physically demanding sport, what should they wear? And as she went through this entire life cycle of ten years of this group and it got and the group goes into a lot of conflict, which I talk about in the book. She finally comes out of the other side And she realizes that as the group has changed They're now holding different questions.

53:11 And that's okay. The questions that now holding are much more about externally oriented. They're about social justice. They're about the projects they want to do in the community. And again That was okay, she said. Their questions weren't my questions.

53:27 And part of what I found in this group uh in this research is that part of modern life And I said this earlier is like we actually get to choose our groups. Like one of the wildest things of modern life is most of us choose the groups we belong to. We choose where we work, we choose who we want to work with, we choose who we wed, right? We're we're we're exiting and entering. Inst fa you know, institutions of faith.

53:53 And Part of Modern groups. That actually last. don't often have sharities.

54:01 They have shared questions. And so whether it's a tech company that is in there that is asking a set of shared questions Whether it's a church, churches have all sorts of different questions, meaning some churches are asking You know, h how do we serve the community? And other churches are asking How do we find personal liberation? Another question like the different institutions are holding different questions. And so a good question at the end is

54:30 Are these questions still my questions? And do I have w the Hindi word mun here? Do I again it's it's sort of like a relational long end, but it's like do I still have is there still a motivating force here? Is there still Is there still is there still an urge to kinda be part of this group, or has my time subsided? And then in the final parts of the of the book I talk a lot about how to close well and how to end well. But also when there has been deep conflict, how to repair

54:56 And how to restore and how I actually think this is one of the most interesting parts questions that we have. Which is when in a group we're asking people to play new roles. How do we help them get there? If if my idea of a father

55:12 Yeah, I'm uh metaphorically a a father is somebody who is takes their kid to soccer practice on Saturdays at ten A. And it's clear that like that is no longer the definition of what we want the father to be in this family. Where and how do we help? That dad. play a role that he never saw his dad play.

55:34 Right. If we are if we are reimagining what it means to be a quote unquote good partner At a firm. and for forty years a partner was somebody who gave their entire life to work and was also disproportionately a married man of a certain, you know, race and ethnicity, and over forty years that has radically changed. And we need to reimagine what a good partner is. I'm saying that in quotes How do we actually

56:01 Help if you want to change. How do you reimagine and help people? into new roles. And that is one and we I think that is one of our most relevant questions as a country. I think that's one of the most relevant questions in any institution. But just how do we when we realize that we need to change.

56:19 And people want to stay. How do we help ourselves into the new roles that make sense for the world we live in now. Yeah, I mean that lands so powerfully and I completely agree, it's often Not even an afterthought, it's not even a thought.

56:33 You know, we're sort of like We we be let's say like we're moving into this mode of conflict. There's this triggering event. There's the rupture. There's the tear you described. We do the work to get really clear about what is it, what's really happening here. We grapple with it, like what are the needs, really defining what are we actually fighting about. We do the work to get the clarity to really surface the assumption so that the implicit becomes explicit. And we get to a point where Like we're you know, we have what we need.

57:01 for everybody to either agree or disagree. Are we moving forward together or are we not moving together? Are we like the cleaving, like are we binding or are we saying goodbye. But if we if we choose to bind to stay together, this is the one part, right? Because it's sort of like are you in or are you out? Well I'm in. But what if he don't have the skills or the practices or the history or the ability to understand how to be in in the new shape of Of this community, of this this relationship.

57:31 And that I agree. I think That's so often where we fall down. On a large scale, but also Small scale. That's exactly right. And and

57:39 And then when I mean this is like I would say with adult relationships with their, you know, aging parents. Where and how do we want to spend time together? What?

57:52 creates meaning in that time together. How do we structure it in a way that you feel like it's nurturing? And then the other person may be like, What do you mean it's not nurturing? What do you mean I'm not you know and and Part of you know all of All of life, all of group life, all of relational life is like I predicting modern life choosing

58:14 Choosing to Bridge across difference when you want to still be In connection. And So even with my father as my you know, I now have children, school age children, and

58:28 Um I think this is true in many families, like There's a lot of there's a lot of difference between seventy and eight year olds and, you know, ten, twelve year olds today. And so thinking about Clearing also clear like

58:43 Part of what happened when I could have that fight about my step sister in law. was I didn't Is that actually by me saying my circle is not your circle? It actually cleared a pathway. for the future ways we spend time together.

59:01 So I wasn't continuing to have a fight or an assumption that every time we spent time together his quote unquote circle of eleven Needed to Be my circle of nine. Right? So this Leanne Davies calls this Ca not passing on conflict debt.

59:17 Right. It was as we had the fights, we're not passing on our debt to all of these other un you know, unfought f fights. Where then every single time you're sort of sitting there and not exactly happy with what's going on because you actually it's al it's almost like you get like plugged up. Yeah. Constipated. Conflict constipated. Uh we're coining it here. Um, but but a huge part of what I'm now able to have with my father Is both of us is like both of us have changed a bit and both and he also realizes that like, oh There's new ways to people spend time together. And I also know what he values and I think about it and

59:54 I in a way have to replace it with something. Right? Something fun, something meaningful. So he actually experiences A different way of spending time together. Mm. Yeah, that completely lands.

1:00:09 Yeah, one of the things that strikes me about um It's funny, I wanna call it a new body of work, but it's really it's really an interesting extension of the art of gathering, you know, is that It's it's ultimately a a tool set and a love letter to what it actually means to show up for someone. Not just in the good moments. Um But in the ones where everything

1:00:29 is on the table. Um to the framework, the ideas. Um yes they're about conflict. Um It's also about you know like what it takes to

1:00:40 to stay in genuine relationship with another person, maybe a community, a group over time. No matter what Um and to keep surfacing. What's often never surfaced. And to say

1:00:56 In conflict. There's also love. Which I think is foreign to so many of us. Beautifully set.

1:01:05 Nah. Feels a good place for us to come full circle as well. I have asked you this question, but it was eight years ago or so. So I'm gonna ask it again. You've changed, the world has changed. In this container of good life project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life. What comes up?

1:01:20 Is to Be an authentic, relevant. Delightful. connection with each other. Mm.

1:01:33 Thank you. Thank you so much. So let's talk about some of the big aha's and takeaways from this combo. One thing I'm really thinking about is How much of what we call peace is actually just abandonment that we have agreed not to name?

1:01:48 Prius tear grapple cleave framework. It gave me language for something that I have felt but never really mapped. The tear is the rupture, the grapple is the The real work of finding the need underneath it and the cleave.

1:02:04 Deciding whether to stay changed or you just close the door. And that phrase relational belonging. That kinda That says I still want to be in this with you even when everything on the surface says otherwise and

1:02:19 That's a thing worth listening for before you decide a relationship or a group is done. So maybe this week if there's a small friction that you've been sidestepping with someone That you actually want to keep in your life? Don't smooth it over. Ask what's underneath it.

1:02:34 That's the whole practice. Hey, before you leave next week we're sitting down with Shane Parish to talk about Why the way most of us make big decisions is quietly working against us. And the small repeatable shifts that can really change that. So be sure to follow Good Life Project wherever you get your podcast so you don't miss that.

1:02:52 Or any future episodes. And Do me a quick favor. Share this conversation with just one person who Or maybe leave us a review wherever you get your podcast. It really helps us get discovered and reach more people. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields. Editing help by Troy Young

1:03:11 Chris Carter crafted our theme music and of course If you haven't already, go ahead and follow us wherever you get your podcasts. So you never miss a conversation. Until next time. I'm Jonathan Field signing off for Good Life Project. The Premier League is back. These are days to be cherished. So get ready for another season of unmissable moments.

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