Bending the universe in your favor | Claire Vo (LaunchDarkly, Color, Optimizely, ChatPRD)

0:00 People often think that I get hired into later stage companies because I'm supposed to teach them how to operate like a big company. And in fact, I say I'm hired to remind them they can operate like a startup. Everybody wants this. Everyone's like, yes, move fast, amazing quality. What's an example of that for you? I communicate to my leaders that my expectation is they bring in the clock. Speed, one clip faster. If you think something needs to be done this year, it needs to be done this half. There may be a trend happening here of combining engineering and product. I'm using CPTO for short code of running product and engineering design functionally together. There should be no debates over what's best for product or what's best for engineering, what's best for design. It should be what is best for the organization. You built a tool called Chat. PRD. My guess is it's the single most popular AI PM specific tool out there. Is it gonna eliminate PMs next year? Probably not. Are the skills required gonna shift? Yes, could they shift much faster than we all anticipate? Probably. Today my guest is Claire Vaux.

0:58 Claire is a longtime chief product officer at Collor. Optimizely and currently chief product officer at Launch Darkly. Чи особан а тіє фодер, инженер. Designer, and a marketer. She's also the creator of Chat PRD.

1:12 Which I suspect is the most used PM specific AI product out there. Which she builds on nights and weekends. In our conversation, we dig into what PM skills AI will complement and potentially replace in the future. The story behind Cat PRD And Claire's advice for how to stay ahead of the curve on AI.

1:31 within the BM role. The importance of feeling agency over your career and how to bend the arc of the universe to achieve the things that you want to achieve. Insights into what it takes to be a successful woman in tech. Especially as an exec. How she creates a fast pace within larger companies while also keeping the bar very high. The rise of the CPT O roll?

1:52 Combining product and engineering under one leader. Plus a tan of career advice. both for early career people and senior leaders, and so much more, this episode has something for anyone that's in product or interested in the role of product. And I am very excited to bring it to you. If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it on your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes, and it helps the podcast tremendously. With that, I bring you Claire Vaux, after a short word from our sponsors.

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4:16 Claire, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the podcast. Oh, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. I'm even more excited. You're someone that to me has always felt inevitable would be on this podcast and that we'd be doing an episode together. Do you feel the same way? Uh, or not, and it's okay if you don't. It's a privilege and a and a pleasure, and I'm glad I gl I'm glad I'm here, you know. Um, I've been so impressed with Your guests and your content. It's been so exciting to see just the wide range of product leaders and thinkers in the space. And if I can be

4:46 on a list of product leaders and thinkers in the space, then I I'm doing something good. So thanks for having me. It's absolutely my pleasure. I wanna start by talking about career advice. Okay, so I was perusing your LinkedIn. And

4:59 Your career path is Basically, what m most PMs probably dream of in their career. So just to summarize, you went from associate product manager. Your product manager, to senior product manager, to director, to senior director, to VP. S VP.

5:12 Two Chief Product Officer. And I've been chief product officer of three different companies. And along the way, you're a founder, you're a designer, you're an engineer. So here's my question. If you had to boil down what you think your secret sauce

5:26 Has been to progressing so far and so quickly throughout your PM career? What What might that be? Yeah, so

5:34 You know, when you list it all out, you can probably guess underneath it all is like a relentlessly Curious, impatient, eager to build person at at their core. So I just like building stuff and I I find it a lot of fun and I think if you find a career or craft that's fun. It's easy to accelerate your growth in that career. So one thing I just I just love what I do.

5:56 But you know, when it comes to career growth and that progression from actually started as a copywriter of all things, copywriter all the way up to CPO or CBTO that runs an engineering organization. You know, it boils down to something really simple, which is Know what you want out of your career. be clear and ask for it, and then make it easier boss or whoever

6:17 can support or champion you to get you from here to there. And so I'll take a really specific example from earlier in my career where I had been in management for design and product management. So like a senior manager level over product and design at a at an e-commerce company. And worked very closely with growth and marketing.

6:37 We were just two sides of the same coin and work very closely. And The head of marketing left. And there was this big to do, you know, pretty quickly of like, Well, what are we gonna do with marketing and do we need to hire somebody? And I sat for about a half a day and I thought

6:52 I think I can help here. Drew out an or chart, put my name on the top. Walked into my boss's office and said This is one potential solve of Your marketing organization question this will bring

7:04 product and marketing growth together. I can be in this position. Here's how I change the management structure underneath it's not just where do you put me, but where do you put everybody else? And I think this could work for the company, and this is how I'd suggest we roll it out. And this would be my JD. And I got that job and You know, I think

7:22 When people ask me about career advice They want to hear, you know, what can I do? Really like, what do you want? And how do you make it as easy as possible to make the case to your boss to get you here to there? The other thing that I give people advice about is know what you want out of your current role. And know exactly what you want your next role. To be.

7:42 And I even know this, and I even say this to my boss. You know, when I was VP of product at Optimizely, I said to my boss, I wanna be a chief product officer. Here's how I'm gonna get us here to there and I want you to partner with me on it. And Even coming into this role when I was interviewing at Launch Darkly

7:58 You know, uh my boss, Dan, the CEO of Most Darkly asked me, When do you want how this role? And I said I want my next role to be a CEO role. So I want I want this role. to fill in my gaps, learn, help me elevate my, you know, my experience. To get me to that next step.

8:14 And so I always know what that next rule is gonna be and I'm always clear about it. Now I think there's a fine balance here. There's one thing to be very clear about your goals. It's another to suck the oxygen out of the air about only talking about getting promoted. So these are Probably. Point zero zero five percent of my interactions with my boss are about my career growth and my path. It's very small. It's

8:38 Am I clear, are we on the same page and am I am I communicating as I'm making progress against those goals? High slip people I think get promoted basically as fast as the or can support. I've never I've never I've almost never wished I promoted somebody earlier. I have wished I had You know, I've seen managers or folks promote a little too early.

8:59 And so as somebody that's managing their own career, you have to be a balance of ambitious and assertive and take care of yourself and advocate for yourself and You sh the work needs to speak for itself at the end of the day, and that's what's gonna drive or your career growth. And so

9:17 Know what you want, but do the work and and produce the results and You can have a curly plane. So maybe first to summarise Some of the core advice you're sharing is

9:27 No what you actually want because You're not gonna Progress. towards this amazing future career if you don't actually know where you're going. Otherwise you'll kinda be pushed in directions that you're not necessarily interested in going. So

9:38 I have a sense where you want to go to. Tell people and ask for it. Here's There's a right. want to be doing in the future help me get there. And I love the other point you made of just like don't overfocus on that. There's many people that spend a lot of their energy on like, I need to get promoted. How do I get to the next level? I didn't

9:53 I deserve the next level. Yeah. And I guess maybe along those lines, is there any other advice you could share of just how to avoid being that person that's just like constantly obsessed with Promotion uh Any more advice or just like how to find that balance?

10:06 Yeah, I mean one, you've got to lock to the the norms and the talent norms of your organization. You should know how those things work and They can work very casually if you're a very small startup, and they can work more formally if you're at a very large company. And one understanding how promotions

10:25 operationally happen inside an organization can help you have those conversations at the right time in the right moment with the right context. So that's one thing I advise, right? We're a slightly larger organization. We do promotion cycles, we have times during which we promote people. And so if you're talking to me four months beho before a promo cycle

10:44 Maybe it's top of mind, maybe it's not. Um I can't do I I sometimes functionally cannot promote people inside larger organizations. Whenever I want. So one is I think understanding how the t the talent calendar of of of your team, especially at a larger organization. I think the second thing Is really

11:03 The conversation needs to be about what you being in a different position does for the company and why the company needs it. Often the conversation is I want to be promoted because I want to be a director of PM because I want to become a manager because I need direct reports. Instead of saying look

11:23 Your span of control. You have you have nine direct reports. You need leverage here. I have a lot of credibility with This side of the product organization I think we could be doing more. If

11:37 This position existed and I think I'm good for this position. because of what I've proven A B and C. That's solving a problem for the company. That's not solving a career growth issue for an individual, and I think You know, people who want to be promoted need to think in that orientation versus the the other because Honestly.

11:58 Especially now. Like let's Let's say poserp like There are not just these rote every twelve months we're gonna give comp increases and merit increases and you get To be promoted. We really have to be thought about the structure and size and organization of teams.

12:17 Product teams are naturally pretty small. So there aren't just management and does in director and senior director roles to go around. And if you want to get into a management, for example, you have to prove that you're good at organization design. So I think really focus on.

12:33 why a a role is good for a company were necessary for a company and then why you are the best for that role. Rather than I want to get promoted. That is such good advice and such important advice that Focus on how do you solve problems for your manager and the business.

12:48 Not, hey, here's what I need for my career. The sucks. My career's stagnating. Uh I love that. That's uh and I love so much of your message as empowerment. It's not just here there's the And there's not a lot you can do about it. Look for opportunities. To help your manager, help your business. Here's what I can do to

13:04 Move things further. And I think there's an element of timing that you touched on. Like proposed this at the t at a time when something could happen. Like you shared this example of There's a marketing gap. Yeah.

13:15 Yep, exactly. Is the is there another example where you did the sort of thing where you kind of presented here's how I can help the Oregon that helped another promotion. If not, that's goodly um how I expanded into leading Engineering teams? In a in a technology organization, I was at color, and there was a real need to up level our engineering organization, and I knew exactly.

13:38 I knew exactly what to do. I had I'd high confidence I had the skills both technical and organizational. to scale the engineering organization in a way that was really critical to the business, both from a architecture perspective and from a from a team and talent perspective. And so that was one where I knew there was a problem to solve. I knew that problem was important. I knew we had to solve it fast.

14:00 And I was confident I had this I I knew I could do it. I had I had confidence that I could help there. And so I'm still doing it today. And You know, at collar I did I took I came in as product, I very quickly um began leading the engineering organization, which was fabulous. And then um Actually took on some of our non-clinical operations as well, where we had, you know, pretty operational leader.

14:25 we had some high scale challenges to deal with and it it fit my talent set and I knew I could help the company pretty quickly. So You know, and and this is the other advice I might give, particularly to PMs. PMs such a generalist role. It's okay to go a little left and a little right to go uh And You know, I I took this marketing growth role. That was actually my first director role. It wasn't only for product, it was for marketing. And

14:50 I had to learn marketing and I had developed skills there. But it was a foundation on which I could build a a broader sort of leadership. career and so I do think also looking left and right outside of your scope. of product.

15:04 Can be a really effective way to find growth opportunities. I love that advice and it yeah, it leads to so many Unexpected opportunities. One of the I think big questions with PMs And coming back to your original.

15:16 advice of nowhere you want to go. There's so many directions a PM can go. You can eventually become a founder. Become a GM. Something else. And it

15:26 Trying these sorts of things often helps you understand, okay, here's what I'm actually excited about. Maybe I want to move into design. Yeah, and one of the other things that I think people don't understand. And maybe I experienced this as a founder and I really feel it inside companies. It's like The universe is vendable to your will, and what I mean is In most at least in in the stage I operate in and startups and gross stage companies and you know late stage startups.

15:52 Organizations are very fluid. And I like to organize around talented, motivated individuals. And so just because we're organized in a particular way now, just because these organizations are separate or these are different, you know, together. Doesn't mean that's necessarily the way they have to be. And so you should think about your career growth. in the existing structure of the organization, but

16:15 As an org design thinker, it's very important job that I have to do. You also have to think of this system as a living, breathing you know, entity that can shift over time. In particular around Highly motivated, highly talented.

16:29 People. And I think along the same lines. Referencing this advice you've already shared of just thinking from the perspective of What is my manager and Folks above.

16:38 What They struggling with. And how can I propose here's a solution that happens to also have me Move into a more interesting role. Yep.

16:47 Exactly. There's a direction I wasn't planning to go into, but I think it's really important and interesting is people like you that are incredibly good and successful end up taking on a lot. And that often ends up not being what they want. SOS. Exactly. Any advice on you know, like the classic, be careful what you're good at advice.

17:05 Any advice on just how to not end up with everything? I really believe operating in your zone of genius. I really believe in leaning into strengths and You know, if you were in a position in which You're good at things and you've been giving a lot of responsibility.

17:21 But you have tremendous growth edges and you're spending more time on the things you need to level up than the things you are exceptional at. I think that's not fair for the organization. I think that's not fair for you. So I truly believe defining and understanding your zone of genius. Where you are exceptional. where no one else can step into the job and do just as good of a job as you can, and where you derive tremendous intellectual, emotional,

17:46 Joy out of the work is what makes it's sustainable over time. And so I don't actually think it's about the volume or breadth of the work. It's about sustainability of the work and You know, can you show up every day energized and engaged and excited about what you do? And I think being very aware.

18:07 If you were operating the space or or if you're not. And this might go back to I think um I have never regretted promoting somebody too slowly. I have regretted promoting somebody too quickly. in that, you know, high slope individuals in particular areas

18:24 want to get more responsibility, quote unquote. Want to have more scope. And I've seen sort of less experienced managers or directors or even people at my level. wanna give opportunities that put people in a position where they're not They're they're neither effective nor happy.

18:41 And so I think being self aware. of that is really important. And then I also think As a manager being cognizant. Of that is really important. Individually.

18:52 I do do a lot. But I do feel like I'm in my zone of genius and I also Know that part of staying in my personal zone of genius is having this breath of responsibility. But preserving builder time. And what I mean from builder time is like

19:09 I have to have time to produce. Real work. That is that comes for me as an individual. And that means that calendar management. Is is quite important.

19:19 Time management. We're gonna talk about some of the things that you built. Yeah. In terms of finding your zone of genius, any advice for someone that's trying to figure out what it is that is in that zone of genius? I know there's like a TED talk of here's How to think about zone of genius specifically, but I figured it'd be.

19:34 I'm not gonna I'm not gonna relay it in in precision, but one of the tactics that I've seen out there is basically Go through your calendar for the last. Month or quarter, whatever it is, write everything down. And basically group them into

19:49 I hated doing this. Um, I didn't love doing it, but we was fine. I love doing this and then like I love doing this, and if I could spend all my time on this, I would be the happiest person in the whole world. And like literally categorize your Your the way you're spending your time. into those buckets and then

20:08 Don The the bottom buckets away. Just focus on that topic and go, How can I be here? More And often that is a true guide to where

20:19 your really your passion is where your special expertise is and where you're gonna add a lot of value because you're highly engaged. I think the other thing is really asking yourself, and this maybe goes back to the career advice perspective, really asking yourself. What do I do that no one else in this organization Can't do. There are lots of you know, there are lots of things that I do that other people in the organization can do, but what are the things that I do?

20:45 Better. You know, think about a differentiated product that are hard to replicate. Um, and and knowing what that is and leaning into that can make you can can drive a lot of exceptional career growth, but also just make you quite happy. What's an example of that for you?

21:00 I I think I'm actually quite good at traversing across across an up and down. So what I mean is I ha I'm fluent across product engineering design data and operations and candidly revenue. In a way that

21:15 vertible or functional leaders maybe are less so. So I feel like I have a high level fluency. broadly and can bring conversations between functions together against a business objective. Pretty easily. It's just Way my wired. I was a founder. It's just it's it's such second nature. And the other thing that I think I can do.

21:33 pretty well that I find very joyous is Traverse elevation. And so Yes, I love to be up here and think about strategy and vision. But I also like to drop into the details to move things forward.

21:47 And I think that Operating you know, horizontally and then being able to spend some time in the vertical up and down. Wherever that vertical up and down happens makes me quite. Happy. I think I'm pretty good at it.

21:58 Amazing. We're gonna touch on some of these things you just mentioned, actually, but real quick, you mentioned this idea of essentially an energy audit. There's actually a really good guide that'll point in the show notes by Matt Mashari. That walks you through how to do this. And we talk about this a bunch on this podcast, actually, this whole idea of just Find things that give you energy.

22:15 Do more of that. Find things that sap you of energy do less of that. Easier said than done when you have a job and you have to do stuff. That people are paying you to do. But it's still uh really helpful, if nothing else, to help you point you where you want to be going in your career long term.

22:29 Okay. So you mentioned you're a founder. And it feels like you're like a founder at heart, but you've been working at larger companies. For a while now. And I hear that you're really good at setting a fast pace within larger companies and maintaining that startup.

22:42 Focus while also having a very high bar. For quality and product. Everybody wants this. Everyone's like Yes, move fast, amazing quality, that's what But I why why would we not want that? I'm curious just what you actually put into practice.

22:57 Concretely that allow for you to build teams that move really fast and maintain a high bar. There are like processes you find helpful. Values, ways of working. Yeah, it's really funny. People often think that I get hired into the roles that I get hired into in later stage companies because I'm supposed to teach them how to operate like a big company. And in fact, I say I'm I'm hired to remind them they can operate like a startup. And so I think about it completely differently. And

23:23 There are kind of Two Two things I think about in terms of pace and and high bar. From a pace It's know what your internal pace is. And essentially don't let it

23:33 degrade to the pace of your recurring meetings. I often find that Pace of organization locks to pace of the calendar. And so I am really thoughtful that. Reoccurring meetings do not drive.

23:47 next steps. It's a very tactical thing. But when somebody says, Oh, we'll we'll we'll discuss this or we'll decide this in the next meeting, it's no, we should discuss this. Now we should decide this tomorrow. The other thing that I think about is setting one click faster pace expectations inside an organization. So

24:07 I I tend to come in and love this hate it. It's it's it's what I do, which is if I look at an organization that is operating at a lower pace than I would expect. I communicate to my leaders that my expectation is they bring in The clock speed. One click faster, which means

24:22 If you think something needs to be done this year, it needs to be done this half. If you think it needs to be done this half, Needs to be done this quarter, this quarter, this month. This week today Like End of day in this meeting.

24:33 And actually setting an expectation that your natural pace is gonna be slower than your Ambition? And being explicit about pulling things in, I think can change the way. expectations are set and honestly change the energy momentum in the organization.

24:51 The third thing on pace is personal SLA. I never want to be the bottleneck for the organization. This is one of the more challenging things about Being in my role is you're often a point of

25:04 Decision making, tie breaking, next steps, approvals, socialization. And if my personal SLA is slow, then the rest of my organization cannot be as as fast as possible. So I try to be fairly responsive. I try to like Say do both very high rate and also very quickly. it's really hard. Sometimes it's not totally possible, but it's it's a goal I have. I love this clock speed concept of just let's move one.

25:30 Uh uh Iteration faster than we would normally move. How do you actually do that? Is this just like you doing it and then everyone trickles down from the way you're approaching it? Is this like a principal on a team like This was there like a phrase you use?

25:41 Yeah, it's a it's kind of a phrase I use and something I asked our leadership teams to do. So it started at One, I'm going to do this, and two, my expectation is you look for opportunities to do this. And the what the reason I think this is effective, it's just very tangible and it's very tactical. It just is one of those things that at a moment when you're about to say a Due date. You check yourself and you go, Is this my you know, is this right or do I need to pull it in by by um

26:09 by a by an iteration. And so It's a very tactical piece of advice and expectation I give to my leadership team, if they can show up that way. Then the expected pace of the organization goes up and then it T people tend to tend people tend to rise to the occasion.

26:26 And then it connects Very directly to your first. Not rely on the neck on the meeting cadence to determine your action cadence. I imagine that's a similar situation where you you tell people here's how I want to operate and then you actually

26:39 work that way and that starts to filter through. Yeah, I th I just think there's this anti-pattern of we'll make the decision in the next meeting or we'll follow up on this in the next meeting. That is an artificial timeline can you know, introduced by Google Calendar or whatever calendar you use. Like it's not a real It's not a real thing. And so I want to put us on real timelines. When can we make the decision?

27:00 How much information do we need? And that and that doesn't mean that every decision is made now, today, tomorrow. But it does mean we don't snap to artificial cadences to make our our Forward. Awesome. Let's talk about quality. What are some lessons there?

27:17 Yeah, I think in terms of high bar, there's probably two things that I think about as a leader. There's the talent bar being exceptionally high, and then there's the product bar being high. And I'll start with talent, which is On the talent side, I think you have to define the bar and you have to be really specific. AM, that means you have to think about pretty deeply what are your leadership principles. If if your leadership principle is

27:42 Bring the clock speed up, one iteration, be explicit that that's what you expect to see, and then articulate that and hold people accountable to it. And so I do think it's really important to have a specific and measurable. career ladder, especially at the senior levels, I often find that they're very Soft. They're like

28:02 hires and manages you know, multiple departments or You know, uh takes in cross functional stakeholder feedback, like those are just not tractable specific Things and so

28:17 I think um you know, put on you know PMs put on your product definition or okay or hat or whatever, and to find some real goals for these levels and be specific in a way that you can look at People and say definitively yes, measurably yes, they're meeting this bar, measurably no, they're they're not meeting that bar. And so I think that's very important.

28:38 The The second thing I think is You have to normalize feedback. And you know, Brene Brown, fellow Texan, lover. Clear is kind, I think.

28:50 conflict avoidant feedback avoidant cultures Degrade. the talent bar. They just do because the expectations are not stated and you're not holding accountability. And I do not think that's kind. That is not setting up people for success in their careers. That is not helping them become the best teammate that they can become. So

29:08 I really like to normalize feedback and take the as I say, take the temperature out of the room when it comes to opening handed feedback. And that means being very clear when people are not meeting expectations. Making it very clear that questioning ideas is not questioning innate talent. And I think that has something that people need to hear to normalize feedback.

29:28 But I think feedback is is is quite important. And I think the third thing is You know, unfortunately when you're working um to build a high talent bar and high talent density, then when folks aren't a fit and it's it's not working Moving against that quickly is part of the job and It's it's a hard part of the job and it's part of the job that most managers really avoid, but

29:49 I think it's important because it keeps your overall team operating in a really healthy effective performant way that makes Everybody happier, including people that that probably weren't a great fit for the for the orc of the role at the time. Is there an example?

30:03 Um You being Uh surprisingly candid to someone. Or Uh giving feedback, hard feedback to someone about quality, something that's just like, Oh wow.

30:13 That that's uh that's what I should There were two leaders in my organization. Um, I won't say which one, but I won't say when, but Two two leaders in the organization, partners across product and engineering. And they could not.

30:27 get get it together. They could not work together. They were having mis you know, they were having misalignments and priorities strategy. They could not communicate, they were having conflict in front of the team. And You know, the the managers that had managed them were taking this very soft pedal approach of you need to

30:46 work on your crossbow functional stakeholder and like here am I expecting to be all this kind of Performance management stuff to happen. And I called both of them individually and I said The way you are operating is not meeting

31:01 Our leadership expectations. If you do not change, you cannot be part of this organization anymore. I believe You can operate differently. I do, and I and I did. I believe these are very, very talented people who can oper. I believe you can operate differently, but it is your responsibility to do so.

31:17 And I need to see change starting tomorrow. I wanted them to succeed, and in fact they did. It like Snapped in. They got it.

31:25 And One of the he had turned into one of the most Influential, effective managers in our team over the course of probably the next six to nine months. And I think just

31:38 Clearly saying you are not meeting expectations. You will not be successful here if you continue on this path. I believe you can get here, but it is your responsibility. That is the conversation that is clear. and kind and honestly very effective in in in most instances. That's an amazing example.

31:57 Uh clearest kind. As you said. It reminds me of um Kim Scott, who's on the podcast, shared the story about Bob. I don't know if you remember that story at all of just this guy at their company who's just doing a bad job and everyone knew he was doing a bad job, and then they had to fire him and then he's just when they're firing he's just like, Why didn't you tell me? Why didn't anyone tell me that I was doing nobody thought I was doing a great job.

32:16 Yeah. Yeah, and I I I honestly think saying You are not doing a good job, said Is Much kinder.

32:24 Then I think you can improve on this aspect or that aspect, or I've gotten some feedback that you could be better at. Like That's not kind because it doesn't set somebody else up for success, either in your organization or somewhere else. Okay, let's go in a different direction. Being a woman in tech.

32:39 Oh yeah. This doesn't get talked about a ton on podcasts like this. I know you have a lot of thoughts, obviously you've been through. A lot. I've ex you've had a lot of experiences, probably a lot of stories you haven't shared in other places. So Uh, I just want to give you a chance to share

32:54 What you've been through what you've seen and any advice you may have. Yeah, and I'm happy to talk about this. I know a lot of people don't want to be like defined or consistently asked about being a woman or a mom in a C level leadership role, like let's not have women in tech panels anymore. But I've been reflecting a bit. on this lately because I just came from a few years in healthcare, which from my experience

33:15 a lot more women in leadership roles. I was a little spoiled. Um as even even in our our technology organization. And now I'm back in you know, startups in tech where the ratios are completely opposite, especially in roles like engineering, which is a team that I run. And Look, this is just it's math. I think Carta said that thirteen something percent of founders last year were women.

33:38 It's declining year over year. Seem a lead. Founded teams, right? Two percent of venture capital, women hold thirty percent of senior leadership or roles. Women are thirty percent of software engineering teams. Like, this is just math, we're just facts. We're not in the room in the equal proportions and

33:55 As somebody who has, despite kind of the numbers, had a fairly successful career so far in technology. I feel like I owe it to the industry to say, Like it hasn't been easy and It's still not easy, even even at my level. And What I wanna be clear about because I'm you know it gets talked about a lot in in forms like this is

34:14 This is not about imposter syndrome. Like How how could how could how could I have any right to imposter syndrome? I've proven myself. I've been a founder. I've raised venture capital, I've had a successful exit, I've been, as you said, like a CPO. across increasing large teams.

34:29 Like I get to invest in red companies. I'm on boards. I get to be on this podcast. I'm I'm a TikTok influencer. Like this is not about um Feeling like an imposter? It's really about like it is Hard and it is different. And the numbers pencil out in a way that is not favorable to to women and

34:48 You know, as you said, there's been a lot of stuff. in in the past that You know, you look at me now and you say, Oh, you know, sh she's she did associate and all the way up But I had to. fight for my all girl school to carry computer science at the same rate that

35:02 the all boys school had it naturally. I Grew up in Teeny tiny startups. In the early aughts, like I saw some nonsense.

35:12 You know, I had VCs tell me don't get burnt. When I was like these things. happened. And yet like Here I am, and it's and it's fine. And I'm not complaining. I just think

35:23 You know, I think what people also don't understand is That stuff still happens. I you know, I don't need to litigate. Who it happens with, where it happened. It still happens. I've I have arrived. And it still happens.

35:35 And the reason I bring this up is I think it should be a point of reflection. For industry. And I think it can be a really effective point of reflection for women who want to get into leadership roles and The way I approach it is I'm just Very curious. I wonder. What is structural?

35:52 About. Technology. that creates these things happen. What is cultural Um What is

35:58 external like what has happened to me or happens around me. What is internal? What do I bring into the room that doesn't serve me? And so I, you know, I try to stay very curious and then, you know. constant product thinker, like what are the points of leverage I can

36:16 I can use to move things not just for for me, but for the industry broadly. How can I influence thinking? Where can I not? Where can I walk away from things? And then as for the internal aspect of it, I think this is also a very powerful thing, which is I try to stay an empowered An empowered space. I know

36:33 You know, my value And yeah, I have I have no time for imposter syndrome. It's not a it's not a constructive um Yeah. But I do think knowing that as I said earlier, like the universe is vendable to your will. There are things we can change. I don't think these numbers are not tractable.

36:50 And so my my recommendation and what I'd love to say to The industry generally. to women in per particular is like Curi curiosity and empowerment have been my path. To joy in this sometimes complicated industry.

37:04 And I you know, I think there's a lot better we can do, but Um There's there's a little bit of ways to go. Is there a story that you could share if you're comfortable of just something you've gone through or been through that maybe people are like, Oh wow, I see.

37:17 I see what stuff she's dealing with or other women are dealing with that. I had no sense of I've been trying to wrap my head around this one, which is I consistently get asked if I'm technical enough. Or if I'm tech not not even if I'm technical enough. Put enough aside.

37:31 If I'm technical. And it's fascinating to me because So technical fo co founder of of my startup. I wrote code for the first twelve I first twelve months solo.

37:44 It was the kind of like led the engineering team there. That code is still in production in very, very large environments. I have run multi hundred. people engineering teams for many years. And

37:59 I spend my Saturdays and Sundays shipping Code. Like I this is what I do. And truly the first question most people ask me is, Oh, well, you're not technical though. You're a pro you're like you're a product person. And I've I've been really trying to unpack where that is coming from. It's hard for me to imagine. somebody else that looks different, that has a different name, there's a different gender.

38:21 getting that question with my background. And so that's one of those things that has really been spinning my head. Again, it's not about imposter syndrome. I don't have anything to prove to people. But I am quite curious. where that orientation comes from. And if it comes to somebody like me who has really You know.

38:38 had some proven success. I I know it's happening to other people and Um, I'm hoping that I can do something from from from my position to You know. Turn that a little bit. And this connects to what you shared, the advice you had of just like try to get curious about why's happening, which is exactly what you just said.

38:55 Is that just uh mostly to help you not get upset and frustrated. Like let me just understand why is this happening again and again. One, it's I do think sitting in your power is very effective. And so Curiosity means that I'm in control and I do think I'm in control more than more than I'm not.

39:14 So that's one one part of it is I think and the other thing is I think a lot of this Is It's complicated, it's structural, it's It's cultural, it's what you see and what you don't see, not just in the workplace, it's what you see and don't see.

39:29 In media, it's am I reading my seven year old and my four year old books of my grandma's a software engineer? You know, books are called the Mom test, which I actually think is like a great book. But it has this underlying presumption of who is technical, who's not, who understands things, who doesn't. And that all bubbles up into how individuals experience an industry that's driving tremendous economic growth. Here. Well, at the end of the day, it's about economic participation. It could be about individuals and aspirations, but it is also about economic participation. So

39:59 The reason I'm curious about it is'cause I do think it's complicated. And I do think you can be successful. But I don't think we're being successful at the rates I would love to see. And I I think we're missing a lot of

40:11 innovation and a lot of economic growth. By not having incredible technical, capable women start companies and lead organizations. And so I I I think we're all missing out for that and I'd love I'd love to see more of it. And is there is there an answer to how do we Do this better.

40:29 Uh Anything you think hey you've seen work. to help. Get us past this. I think normalized seeing it. So

40:38 Thanks for bringing me on this podcast. But I I do think normalize seeing it. uh is one of the simplest ways. You know, if you close your eyes and imagine a software engineer, my dream is like you imagine a a diverse set of folks. You don't imagine a very specific R type and so I do think you can't believe it unless you see it. And so the more that you can provide platforms for

41:01 diverse voices to talk about their journey. in technology expose that there are leaders out there that come from different backgrounds technically, culturally, all those things. The more the or the the industry can imagine different types of leaders in different types of roles. And so, you know, I just want to see it more. I want to invest more. and raise the voices of female founders. I wanna call out their amazing female CTOs out there, all those things. And I think if you can see it, you can start to unlock.

41:29 These very, very embedded concepts of who is and isn't is and is not a a technology leader who is and is not Technical.

41:40 Awesome. I love that advice. It's something I try really hard to do with this podcast. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Vanta. When it comes to ensuring your company has top notch security practices. Things get complicated.

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42:19 Join thousands of global companies that use Vanta to automate evidence collection, unify risk management, and streamline security reviews. Get one thousand dollars off Vanta when you go to vanta dot com slash Lenny. That's V A N T A dot com slash Lenny. I know you have a fun story about when you were very pregnant. Selling

42:40 Your startup. Yeah. to optimizely Can you share that story? I have an actually. Yeah, yeah. This was this was a fun one. Again, this is like the universe is bendable to your will and lean into your power. Which is I had been running Experiment Engine, which was a um

42:55 Platform for enterprises to run high scale experimentation. Um programs. So not necessarily the underlying A B testing technology, but all the stuff around Hypothesis gathering, insights, aggregation, operations, like keeping things on on track. Because I really know as as you do that high scale experimentation programs can be very impactful to to businesses.

43:19 That being said, it was like a niche inside an industry as opposed to a large TA problem. And so I think we just fundamentally hit a TAM ceiling here. We had a great product. For a great market. That was very narrow. And you know, three years, four years into running a company, I knew that to be true and I knew that

43:38 we would be better served by being part of a um a larger organization and one of those organizations could be a large testing company. And so I remember that was like noodling on my mind, but we were also really trying to sell to enterprises and I heard that Microsoft, who was one of our biggest customers, was doing a

44:00 Experimentation day with Optimizely. And I knew Optimizely was a natural acquirer. And I knew I had to get into that room. So so I called Microsoft and I said Friend of Microsoft. I'm gonna be up in Seattle seeing our other customer, very large Seattle company.

44:18 This week. Week of experimentation day. Can we say bye? And they're like, Oh yeah, sure. Well then I went to other, you know, other big Seattle companies and hey, other big Seattle company.

44:32 Would you be r so like I got these two meetings to to manifest against each other. And then I walked into that experimentation day and I eyeballed the CFO of Optimizely and I sat in front of In front of him and started pulling up the product and coding at the same time. I was just like I'm gonna sit in front of him in a row and I'm gonna do this. Where I have my screens.

44:55 And then I went up and did a demo, and I'm not saying that's the thing that Made it happen. But I will say very quickly after that, we became very close partners and ultimately they ac they acquired me. And I give this advice to founders because one of the things that founders and PMs, one of the things that I really Higher for is scrappiness. I think you have to be able to do

45:15 a lot with a little and I think you have to know where you're getting and you know, come hell or high water, figure out a way to get there. And this was a very fun example of Of working my way into the right room, setting myself up for the success that I wanted. And and and having the backing, the good job, the great product. Um

45:33 the the outcomes. To earn it, but You also have to get yourself in the room. And how many months pregnant were you? Oh, I was m extremely pres pregnant. Um A ticking time bomb of a belly is a really good negotiation tactic in a deal. I think I remember when we were negotiating the final term sheet, I was thirty

45:54 Four weeks pregnant, something like that. And they said, Can you fly out to San Francisco? It was in Austin at the time. And I said, Literally, you can fly me out today and back tomorrow, and then I'm not allowed on planes. And that's how, you know. Got it. It was very fun. It was it was it was fun and and what a happy acquisition. I can talk all day about how that was great great experience. And I love it's another example of the phrase you've been coming back to of bending I don't know if it's bending the world Two will be the universe towards the will.

46:20 Uh, I love it. It feels like a recurring theme here is Is it to take agency and control of where your career and life is going. Yeah. And that's such a good example of just like finding a way into this room that would be very hard for someone to get into. Yeah. You've touched on The C

46:36 T PO roll. that I haven't heard much about and I know that this is a big topic for you and I feel like there might be a trend happening here of kind of like combining engineering product, you can just talk about

46:49 Why you think it's might be merging. Yeah, I get asked about it a lot because it's it's not super rare, but it's not super common either. And I think it it could potentially be ri be rising. And so I believe that the CPT and I'm using CPTO for short credit code of like running product and engineering design functionally together. It's very different. I've done both. It's very different than a pure product or a VP product role.

47:13 And so first, um, you know, I talked a little bit about how I got into this role. I do think you have to be technical. to do do a role like this. I think a lot of people look at my professional background And think that I use my like broad leadership skills and the leverage of a great SVP um to keep the engineering team going, but no, actually I spent quite a bit of time.

47:33 on the engineering side because as somebody who is responsible for the business outcomes of the product. One of the best ways to drive value is having a highly performant engineering team that works on a scalable platform. And so I'm I spend a lot of time making sure that we're building the right architectural decisions, that our infrastructure meets the needs of our team. that our edge team is operating a way that drives velocity. And I just don't think you can do that job if you don't understand how software gets built on a technical level. So I'm the kind of person that when we're doing a product review, I have like the PRD up and get.

48:05 GitHub up like comparing both. Because I think both sides. Matter. I think the other thing that's different about this role is it's quite operational. And so you really have to know about operations and organization design.

48:20 And teams are by nature much larger than product organizations. Like if you just think about the classic ratios, there are more people in engineering than there are in product. And the talent change challenges are significantly different in engineering, whether it's the, you know high volume of Recruiting, culture shape challenges are different. You have to really think about org design. And so

48:41 you know, you have to have a different level of mindset around organization design and operations. when you're in a CPT ro oh role and You have to, you're you're in pager duty, right? Yeah, like you're getting paged at one in the morning if a service, you know, th if there's a set zero and it goes down. That is not what it's like to be. be a product leader. So you gotta know what you're getting into and you have to be technical. And then the th the thing I would be remiss to say about this role is the P and the T get a lot of air time.

49:08 product and engineer get a lot of air time. Design. data. These are such functional, very important organizations. And why these roles go. So that's kind of like what the role is and and how how you could be good at it, or whether it would be a f a fit for your skills.

49:24 Question of why have this kind of role and I think there's two there's two reasons. There's the obvious strategic reason of like They're all the same thing, right? They're all building

49:37 Capital P product. Um, they're all builders. They're the same types of folks. They're all builders. And bringing them one under one house allows you to optimize for the whole as opposed to optimize for the function. And if you can find a leader that is effective at that. I think you can get a lot of value out of it. And it's And honestly, the second thing is it it provides a tremendous amount of leverage to the CEO in many ways.

50:03 At the end of the day, R D is a very expensive and complicated investment. the company is making. And having a single person responsible for R and D investment at the executive level is quite important, especially when you're candidly spending a a lot there.

50:21 And so I think it's those two things. It's these are one team There should be there should be no debates over what's best for product or what's best for engineering, what's best for design. It should be what is best for the organization at whole What do our customers need and what do our business needs? And then it's the accountability candidly of this. quite meaningful investment against business objectives and having a single singularly responsible individual.

50:44 to to care for that investment. Mm. Sounds wonderful, having one person to deal with. Across all these functions. Yes, when it isn't, I'll just say like

50:53 I've done both, right? I've I've been a CPO next to an SVP Venge. I've run both together. founders can play this role. And again, this is why I sort of say you you have to optimize around talent in your organization. If your CEO can has the skills bandwidth, et cetera, to do this They can do this. You can keep the organization separate. They can hold that.

51:16 If they have a different area of expertise, if they've never done that before, if it's just not working operationally, they have broader areas of focus. then bring it together under someone. I I don't think there's a Perfect. Organization structure. This has just been one that's worked well in the shape of organizations that need someone like me.

51:34 Yeah, and along the same lines, designing an org around the person, I imagine there's not many very engineering. background experience people that are also really good at product and can do design. I guess how deep do you need to be in each of these functions to be successful in the stroll,'cause it feels really rare. Um

51:51 You know, start a company. And then you have to do it. I I in some ways. I I mean I think this is You know, I I've worked for both And they've told me I work for two, they go, I'm not a founder, but I'm the CEO. And I go, That's fine. I'm an operator, but I'm gonna bring a founder mindset.

52:08 And so I think as a founder Especially early stage. You do all this. You see how all of this is one person, because honestly, sometimes It is one person, and sometimes that person is you. And so I do think working in a small, very small startup

52:25 gives you the opportunity to experience a breadth of Functional skills. And develop a breadth of functional skills. that can set you up for this kind of role much further. further down the line.

52:39 So I do think early stage startup experience is one of those one of those shortcuts to getting getting visibility here. You know, I think the other thing is Again, I said this earlier. So many people get siloed into like, I'm a product manager and so my job is this, but it's not that.

52:56 And I can only do this And if designs are needed, I am blocked and I will just wait. And I just give permission for people to make we have a we're have a leadership principle inside our team that's like There are no lanes. So like they're like our lanes are dotted, they're not solid.

53:15 And that you can shift over and pencil out a design. An engine can ride a spec like all those things are fine, they're natural, they're normal. And I actually think they're quite healthy. And it's that kind of thinking that probably is gonna breed the type of leaders that could do this this type of role. Awesome. Uh reminds me at uh Git Lab I just interviewed They're head of product or CPO and they have a core value of

53:35 Short toes. Don't worry about stepping on people's toes, have short toes, don't worry about people getting into your stuff. It's all it's all good. Yeah. Okay, you mentioned AI, amazing segue.

53:46 to my next topic that I want to spend some time on. You built a tool called Chat PRD. My guess is it's the single most popular AI PM specific tool out there, other than like some big companies tool, like I don't know, Spreaker Figma or something like that. Okay, so first of all, just what is chat PRD and then why did you why did you build it?

54:06 Yeah, so Chap Purity comes out of Again, pace setting. And I'll actually tell you the real genesis of chat purity, which is A previous company We had a quite technical product we needed to build. We're scrappy and resource constrained and

54:25 Our platform PMs were working on something very important, but this was critical. We needed to get it done. And we didn't really have a platform technical PM. to to spec this thing out and it was quite complicated. And I raised my hand and I said, All I see this, I think I know what we need. And Between the beginning of the meeting and the end of the meeting, I had used chat GPT and a and a prompt.

54:48 To like come up with very serviceable PRD spec for this very technical product. And I took that prompt. And that long running chat GPT thread.

55:01 And crafted. the Claire version of of a of a product leader or product person. That could with really solid consistently consistency. output product specs give good feedback

55:14 Um, build up plans. build out tracking um mechanisms and goals And so while I say like She may just be a prompt, but she is my prompt. This was lovingly crafted over several months.

55:26 And so when the GPT store came out For my team, I just said, Hey, you all know I've been writing PRDs with chat PRD or chat GPT. I created as a GPT. And w and just gave it to my team. I was like, Here, you can use this if you want it. And

55:41 They really liked it. And other people started asking about it. And I eventually ran into the monetization and access wall that is the GPT store right now. And so I've also been having a lot of food fun coding again, and so I thought This is easy.

55:58 We're just gonna stand up a s a standalone app, um, and Rap. Come on. R it's a rapper. Um wrap some of these capabil it started as a wrapper. Wrap some of these capabilities and just publish it and put a fairly reasonable price tag on it and see what happens. And now I have. Thousands of people using chat PRD every day. People are creating dozens of specs and PRDs.

56:18 Every month. It's everything from I'm an engineer on a team with too few PMs and I get blocked, so I'm gonna build my own requirements to I'm a solo founder. And I need to put some structure on my thought for my team to I'm a PM and this has saved me truly. Hours of work. To get the basics of my product requirements done, so I can spend spend time on the details. And then I've added on more functions and capabilities in the standalone app.

56:44 Uh, it is it is my personal product co pilot that I've Release for the world. Okay. So first of all, where can people check this out as a chatPRD.com? That AI quasi. That A. I, of course. And yeah, chat PRD dot AI.

56:57 I I saw something said about that co the country that has dot AI is just making so much bank rate network. Oh my all these domains. Okay. Then in terms of the stack, just to be clear, so it started as a chat GPT prompt custom prompt, you kind of evolved Then it became a GPT, a customer GPT. And now It's your own app that is using the open AI APIs behind. It is. Yeah, it's using the assistance APIs. And what's different about the standalone app versus the GPT is every person that uses the standalone app gets a customized assistant.

57:27 So it learns from their specific content. It learns from their role. It learns from their company. So if you use the GPT version, Um you're not getting that customization when you use the standalone app, you are getting that customization. And then I've layered on a couple of different capabilities. So in addition to having the chat format, it will actually create the document. for you and iterate on the the actual doc for you and then working on some additional tools and integrations in the future.

57:55 Okay, great. What are the most common use cases again, just so people can get a sense of oh and let me use this for these things. Yeah, about sixty percent of people use it to put in an idea and get a PRD. out. Um so just like get the specs of What are my objectives and user goals? What are user stories? What is out of scope?

58:16 walk through the UX I have in our standard template. have what's called a narrative, which is like How do you pitch this this product, which I feel like is a thing product managers miss a lot, which like how to position and pitch it. Sequencing and milestones, measurements and goals, all those sorts of things. No, that's the out of the box template. As I said, you can actually customize what your PRD template is in chat PRD. So if you do something different or want something different for a company. So that

58:42 Sixty percent of people are using it for that. Thirty percent of people out of today are using it to put in a a spec or a PRD or a strategy doc or a roadmap and improve it. And then the rest are using it to brainstorm ideas, internal PM work, like how do I come up with a good agenda for X, Y, and Z?

59:01 That kind of stuff. Amazing. Okay. recently of how sharing a bunch of examples of how people are using different GPT specifically at work. And I think it spurred a lot of people to experiment with this stuff.

59:14 If there's one tip that you could share. For someone that's trying to build a GPT. Or their own custom app. Using OPA. API is any advice?

59:24 Prompt matters. Like you know, we went through this this whole cycle of like prompt engineering's a thing, it's not really a thing, fine tuning is like. Prompt really does matter and like a good Like a good PM, I do competitive analysis. I use the same input. and look at different um I look at like GPT or chat GPT.

59:43 I look at the GPT store version, I look at other PM tools that do this, and I look at mine. I think mine is actually better. And then, you know, I'm getting into a a mode now where I may do some model experimentation and tuning behind the scenes. So it might not be open AI, it may be other things. But It matters. The instructions matter. The context matters for the quality of the output.

1:00:05 is something that I would say when building these kinds of products. I think the other thing is there is no solution right now for monetization. You know, knock on wood, open it, and we'll figure it out. If I had more time, maybe I would create a platform out of what I've created for for chat PPT. to let other people sort of monetize their GPTs and add on capabilities. But that is not it's it's not out of the box yet for for folks. And I think there's probably there's a lot of work that I had to do to get get it from here to there.

1:00:31 And are you making like real money with this thing and has the idea that this becomes the thing you do someday, maybe long term. So my original goal and I like said this out on X. So my original goal is I just want to buy like a nice glass of wine a week. That was my goal. I like cases of wine now. This is very exciting exciting for me.

1:00:50 It's making What I would consider Real money. Is it a venture scale thing? No, does it need to be?

1:00:58 No. Um I have a goal around my kids' education expenses. I would love for for this to cover a little bit. So I have an a ambitious but not audacious goal. for for chat chat purity.

1:01:13 The other goal that I have, which is is let's put modernization aside. Is this My joy space. Like J Zone of Genius.

1:01:23 Joyce Face and my goal with chat. PRD is it has to be a hundred percent fun. For me. Like this is my hobby. So I'm not doing anything that makes it not fun. It is a pure bliss space for me.

1:01:35 I get to come out on the weekends. I get to do customer support at night and I get to build things that I would use. I get to learn new technologies. I wanna keep it in that space because it it provides a lot of joy for me. So like put money aside, I just want it to be Love that.

1:01:52 Okay, so some people listening to this, especially Piama may be like, Claire, what the hell are you doing? Replace you're you gonna replace product managers in a year or two. This connects to something I'm just generally been thinking about. And that's come up a bunch of just Over time which skills and uh jobs of a product manager.

1:02:09 Will be greatly enhanced by AI. And which will be completely replaced by AI, if any. so that people can understand which skills they should be investing in, which maybe are less important.

1:02:21 So I guess just broadly, do you have a sense of just Here's skills that are gonna continue to be incredibly important and AI will not Take these skills and jobs off your plate versus okay, these are gonna be the less important AI will Doings.

1:02:36 At the highest level I tend to be very short term. Pessimistic, although I'll I'll for short term pessimistic and very long term optimistic. So I am a big believer that technology has made. society generally. Much more much. much more aff like wealthier, happier, healthier, like

1:02:55 I am a big believer in technology and I am optimistic about its impact. on the human race. There are lots of things that are not going well. full but I really do believe that innovation and technology, like I'm excited for my kids' future. I'm not I'm not I'm not afraid of it. Now, that being said I am of the mind.

1:03:14 excitedly that this is going to change stuff in Companies incredibly quickly. And and part of building chat parity is I hold myself to the bar as a technology leader. I need to be leading.

1:03:30 the league on understanding what this can disrupt, using these tools to make a better, better team, and actually shifting the size and shape of my organization in response to the technology around us. So Is it gonna eliminate PMs next year? Probably not. Are the ratios between PMs and other teams going to shift over time? Yes, are the skills required gonna shift?

1:03:52 Yes, could they shift much faster than we all anticipate? Probably. So I think there's a lot of change coming and I I wanna be prepared for it. Now What do I think this replaces and what does it not replace? Like It was really I was reflecting on this question and

1:04:08 Like Communication lowercase C, I feel like is one of the places it's gonna be replaced. You know, there's and I call it lowercase C is like the functional trading of information. That allows other people to do jobs. Like I think that these language models and these tools are really good.

1:04:30 Synthesizing information. Putting together communication. And can coordinate who that coordination goes, communication goes to and get it out in in many modalities of of content. And so I'm really thinking about, you know The PM as the keeper of cross functional relationships and communication.

1:04:49 Is really I I think potentially gonna change. Now but capital C communication of Are you influential? Are you convincing? Are Bold. Can you get this system of humans?

1:05:02 To follow you down a path. That's I think gonna be much, much harder uh to to replace. And so I'm thinking about the edges of of communication and um where where they'll change it more. That's really interesting. I did a I did a poll on Twitter and LinkedIn asking people Of between uh communication, execution, strategy, and product sense.

1:05:23 Which skills are most likely to be Basically taken over by AI. And Communication was number one by far. I have a contrarian perspective.

1:05:32 And strategy was the least. Least voted. I feel like So strategy Work is essentially

1:05:39 Here's everything we know. about the world and competitors and the market and our advantages. Here's a plan to win in the market. Essentially. I feel like that's what AI is incredibly good at.

1:05:49 I I agree with you. I totally I totally agree with you. I think and again this comes to like synthesis. Good decision making and communication. Like if you can synthesize Distill into a plan and communicate that plan.

1:06:04 I've I found these tools exceptional at the use use chat PRD and give it give it a try. Now I think it's It's sort of the human aspect though of Boldness. seeing the future in a way that they

1:06:19 thing trained on priors cannot like Those things I I still think and then and then charisma and Attracting like all those things to actually make the thing happen. Are pretty hard to replicate.

1:06:33 Which is why I love using chap purity, right? Like I'm not gonna come up with the most genius way to do data export for Snowflake for sunlight like That is a solved area that we should just scaffold up.

1:06:46 I should customize it to what we do. And then we should ship it. Like that is not a place where my you know my magic skills as a human are gonna impact and But I don't think a lot of PMs see it that way. I think there's this real identity shift that's gonna happen where

1:07:01 PMs think that their value Is coming from there. you know, ideas that they manifest into the world and how they individually manifest them. And I think we're gonna shift to like are you are you building the right stuff, are you building it quickly and is it Is it delivering?

1:07:16 No matter what the tool. Tool tool chain is. Yeah. I think your point about getting buy in and getting everyone aligned, that's I don't know how an AI bot does that unless everybody's got their own little bot and they're all like talking to each other. They all just get along. We're in, we're in. No, let's verize this a little higher.

1:07:32 Yeah. I actually made this list. We I feel like this could be an entire podcast. Yeah. But I made it like a quick list of here's the jobs of a PM. Yeah. And it's interesting, and this is just I don't know if this is a really question, but it's just interesting to think about which of these will

1:07:45 Some Chat. PRD maybe do in the future. So what does the job for you? You're writing PRDs, you're setting goals. Proposing a roadmap, aligning a team behind a roadmap. Developing a strategy.

1:07:56 Developing a vision. Communicating timelines, finding blockers, and unblocking people. Getting buy in from Uh up on high. Getting budget resources for your team.

1:08:06 Getting Giving feedback on product and design. Those are just some of the day to day jobs. I'm so curious just which of these Yeah I can actually just do.

1:08:15 And not working. A lot of them. AI can do. And so the question is Which of them do you want to hand the keys to? um an AI tool and which of them Are gonna be much more valuable as a tool that

1:08:29 an individual or a team's intellect can use to do a a better, faster, or higher impact. impact job. And so I think I you know. Again, I believe in technology and I think this stuff, you know, what's interesting about this moment right now is every week I see something. That I would not have in a million years thought was possible.

1:08:48 Three years ago. Every week something new comes out where it just changes my my mind of what's possible. So I believe all of those are Eighty percent good, functionally tractable. The question is, is eighty percent good functionally tractable the best way to do that? Or can we take

1:09:04 A certain type of person with a certain skill set backed by A purpose built toolkit. And make it Three X better, four X better, ten X better. I think that's the more the more interesting question. I think on the on the point of

1:09:18 Amazing things are happening every day. Like we had a SpaceX launched. The starship. And it was like barely mentioned anywhere. Like we have the spaceship that could take us to Mars now. Yeah. We don't need to talk about that. I mean you know, we get the kids up and like stream it on YouTube. Oh that's awesome. I think just I it's a m it's magic. Like we live in this this magic

1:09:36 time. I think it's so fascinating, but I agree. We're getting we're getting spoiled by innovation. You said that there's this ratio that might shift with product managers, engineers. I'm curious which ratio'cause engineers are also getting more efficient. And so it's interesting if the ratios will be consistent as engineers become more efficient, PMs get more efficient. I I wonder if whole whole roles get eliminated and replaced and then ratios aren't even the right way to to think about about things. You know, there's the ratio of

1:10:04 This PM role to this many I know one PM to seven to ten engineers or One EM to seven like there's those ratios. I also think there's gonna be this interesting shift of as a manager or as a leader, how you allocate budget against tools and people I also think is going to shift. And one of the and I saw something Where somebody said that every role that they got asked to open, the team had to spend a week trying to automate it.

1:10:30 before they were allowed to open the J D. And it's just this very interesting you know, and In my mind, you know, people think that's scary and it's gonna reduce jobs. Yes, and I do think there's also potentially other jobs that open up um that can become very interesting. And so I don't know how it's gonna pencil out.

1:10:48 I really don't. What I do know is things are gonna change and I as a leader and a person that cares for people's long term careers. want to be much more forward thinking than um close my eyes to to what the po the possible maybe dramatic changes are in our industry. So

1:11:06 I'm thinking about it. I'm ex I'm experimenting with things and I'm hoping that You know, in our team at Launch Darkly, we're leading from the front here, um, as opposed to on our back. I'm thinking many people listening are like Okay, I need to get on top of this. I need to stay ahead. I wanna follow Claire's lead. Is your advice simply

1:11:25 Great GPTs Play with chat GPT, is there anything else there to help people? I also think PMs need to be thinking about building product skills, particularly around these like non deterministic products. It's been quite into part of why I built ChatGPT is not just to stress test how is

1:11:43 Or chap purity, not just a stress test how These sorts of things are gonna change the product function. It's literally like This is a new type of product built by a new type of technology. And it's moving very fast and learning how to build These kinds of products.

1:12:00 If you can do that, I just think back to like when Mobile happened. If you're a PM that jump jumped on mobile You had the pick of the litter when it came to jobs in very interesting startups. And so I think we're in the same moment here where

1:12:15 If you can ratchet down and specialize and learn a new technology, you actually can get into very interesting Position. So Those are both of my motivations on chat BRD is is understand how it impacts the function that I lead. But also understand how to build a great product with these underlying technologies that are just much different than the technologies that I've personally built on before.

1:12:37 And so for someone that's a not super engineering Orient. I guess how do you recommend people on your team explore this sort of thing? Is it Yeah, it's I I do think studying products that are out there is quite interesting. You know, I I love these uh this idea of doing Outside in

1:12:55 product hair down, like what is good about this? What is bad about this? How would I have written the PRD here? What would I be measuring? How would I think about air states? How would I think about If this is a great product, a good product, or an okay product. I do think doing that sort of crit on an external product can be A really accessible way to start to

1:13:16 stress test your own skills around this and figure out where there are gaps. So that's that's one thing I think you can do. Two, I think there's a lot of no code. low code stuff you can play with. So even if you can't you know, put your hands on keyboard and and write code. You can certainly

1:13:32 stitch together things and and try some no code tools. So that's that's another way. To do it the other thing is like find where it's fun. I think you know, how fun is mid journey? How fun are some of these more creative tools? And so Find where there's something fun and build art out of it.

1:13:51 as a as a mechanism for learning. It doesn't always have to be commercially driven or doesn't have to be part of work. It can just be find a space that you're personally interested in and Play with what's out there. Awesome. One last question about Chap.

1:14:03 Chap PRD. So with Copilot, there's all these stats. It's making engineers fifty percent more efficient, whatever percentage. You have any sense of Efficiency gains so far with chat PRD. So I have um

1:14:16 Qualitative feedback. from from product managers who've used chat chat. Pierity, who have said. This has saved me. Dozens of hours.

1:14:26 I would have spent on writing documents. And another person said. I am a single PM on a team that's growing and I don't think we're gonna have to hire another PM now. So like, you know, there's like both the people, like there's both the the individual aspect and the hours aspect, which is it's it's helping individual PMs get higher leverage or costs.

1:14:48 you know, a broad engineering or building team and then it's helping them spend their time more effectively. Many people don't want to hear this that they don't need to hire PM. There's many people looking for jobs right now. It it's true. Like But we can't

1:15:02 I mean, I think we saw this in the last couple years. inefficiently hiring and Building. unsustainable cost into a company. leads no one to success. And if that's a lesson that I can teach.

1:15:18 Anybody it's sustainability in organizations is the responsibility of A leader. So yes, I would love to give Everybody positions. They're not positions to have and The best I can do for the people in the team is be really responsible.

1:15:34 And really thoughtful about that because that helps me grow their careers and helps me sustain their careers long term. So it's incredibly. Complicated, but also on the flip side, this is a very small startup. They can't afford another PM. And they're extending their runway to build something transformational

1:15:52 by not growing the team. And so Yes, people her teams and and have these jobs and You know, startups can't can't afford it and they still have great things to do in the world. Great answer.

1:16:06 To start to wrap up our conversation. I have these uh two segments, failure corner and contrarian corner. And we can pick which corner you want to head to. Would you like to share a story of your career where you failed and something you learned from that, or something you believe that most people Don't believe which corner sounds more interesting.

1:16:24 I'll take contrarian corner. Let's let's go for there. I need some sound effects for these corners. Uh Do share? Um, I'm I'm sharing this because you just released your podcast with Marty again. Mm-hmm.

1:16:38 And I am a sales led product apologist. Unabashedly, which is I think that it is okay to listen. to the market.

1:16:50 And to be commercially oriented in products in ways that Probably would make some folks in some types of product organizations Swarm. A little bit.

1:17:00 And the reason why I believe this I think there are tremendous businesses. Built. on sale those motions, and I disagree with the fact that that means you do not care for the craft. or the experience of users.

1:17:17 I think it can be the best of both worlds. So I love sales. I say if I was not in this role, put me on a quota and make me Enterprise West. I love, I love to sell. Um but I think product Teams This like

1:17:31 Opposition We have sort of industry wide with sales led. I'm not convinced is healthy in every organization. And I was listening to the podcast and I think you all were talking about you said, you know, you know, SAP is like this, and who wants to be SAP like man alive. There are a lot of companies out there that would love to be SAP now.

1:17:49 with a better product with you know with better experience with more love from the industry, maybe, but like what a powerhouse company. And I think we as PMs turn our nose up. to powerhouse companies too often because we want companies to be product led, not sales led.

1:18:06 Mm-hmm. Amazing. Uh I'm gonna not give deeper into this topic'cause I don't wanna be speaking on behalf of Marty's perspective. But I love there's so much debate that came out of that episode and I love that it trickles. to more opinions being shared about ways product can work. So I guess just to understand your takeaway here is

1:18:22 Sales led companies can be awesome. They can build amazing businesses and it can be great to be a PM at a company like that. Yeah. And they can build great products. Great. Claire, is there anything else that you want to share or leave listeners with before we get to our very Exciting lightning round. I will say,'cause we've been talking a lot about AI and replacing PMs. The the you know

1:18:44 I love to sell. I love to help people get jobs, so If there are ways that I can help people find great fit companies, I it's one of the things that I get a lot of energy out of. So I just want to say that in the world, it's something that sparks a lot of joy. I get a lot of inbound, you know, can you help me get in here? Can you help me get there? But if there is a tractable way that I can help you get to a connected to a company or a role that

1:19:06 You think is great for you, like? That's fun for me and I'm totally open to it. How would people reach out to you to Try to get help you get them gate. Uh yeah, so I am I'm of course on LinkedIn.

1:19:17 I'm on X at Clairvaux, All Word. And then if you really want to go into the archives, I have a A very fabulous TikTok. Where I am chief product officer. It's all one word. Amazing. So we'll link to all these uh in the show notes.

1:19:30 Okay, and we'll refresh these two facts at the end of the podcast anyway,'cause I always ask this anyway. Before we do that. Welcome to our very exciting lightning round. Are you ready? I'm so run. Okay.

1:19:42 First question, what are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people? High Growth Handbook. I I love And I like scaling people. So these are two books that the reason why I recommend them to people is because they have

1:19:56 Solid Playbook answers. to like Eighty, ninety percent of kind of

1:20:04 Every day leadership scaling people questions. And so they're just like great reference books for what I think like great leadership inside startups can look like and they solve some of the things that you don't need to solve novel novely. Um, and then one on the fiction side that I've been recommending is Circe. Which is a retelling of um Cersei's story from her perspective and I

1:20:25 I it's it's like a a great read, and everybody I've recommended it to really loves it. From Game of Thrones? Uh no, k Cersei from the Odyssey. So Odysseus. Like it might be turns men into culture. It's it's great. Um my kids are very into Greek mythology, so This is me, uh That means that on my side. Amazing. Uh the first two books are both Straight Press. Shout out Straight Press. Yeah, Straight Press.

1:20:47 And I have both books in the back there and I my laptop's actually sitting on the scaling cube. Him. Next question. What is a favorite recent movie or TV show you've really enjoyed? I have kids so I don't get to go see movie I mean movies are like that's an adventure. It's basically a vacation. So I haven't seen I I saw four things, which if you like capital W, weird capital A art.

1:21:07 Highly recommend uh poor things. You know the show that I recommend to people and to I love Mythic Quest. You know, like everybody references Silicon Valley, but Mythic quest gets at some of I was in gaming once. Um, get to some of my experiences in the in the technology organizations got a technical female lead and

1:21:25 Think it's quite funny, so I leave with the quest. Do you have a favorite interview question they'd like to ask candidates? I'd like to ask candidates how they would improve our business model. I think So many PMs come in with a point of view of like the product and the target market, but like

1:21:41 don't actually understand the underlying mechanisms of how we make money and what our unit economics are and how that could be improved. And the candidates that do come in and have a strong point of view on business model often are pretty successful in my organization. And what do you look for in a good answer that's like, Oh, wow, this canada's great. It's sort of thinking along the chain of value to from how do we identify people in the market, what does our pricing uh model look like? What could they hypothesize our underlying unit economics or Cogs are and then where their points of leverage along that that whole funnel. So it's really

1:22:16 Do they have a mental model for thinking about? A business model have they thought at all about how we make money? either Top line or margin. And then can they identify places where they might improve it?

1:22:28 Awesome. Basically understanding the business. Really well. Great. Do you have a favorite product that you recently discovered that you really like? Okay, I'm gonna make you laugh because

1:22:38 You've gotten all these cars, right? I have such expensive cars. Oh, do you have any specific cars? I it's not new. I love my minivan. So I am a big fan of my minivan. As my friend says, it's like driving around your living room and when you have two kids.

1:22:56 You know what I wanna do? I just wanna drive around my living room, like Bluey included. And so Um, you know, no Rivian, no Mercedes Benz, but I really love my Pacifica. Pacifica. Okay, I was gonna ask. But but the actual car product that I really love, I love Wamo. You know, we're in San Francisco. We've got these autonomous vehicles. It is

1:23:16 Top to bottom. Just a lovely product experience from the app. to when it shows up, the sound design is great. The cars are comfortable. The displays in the car are great, like

1:23:30 It is now every time a tourist comes in, a friend comes in to visit San Francisco, I make them take a Round trip ride in a robot car. So And then even I've I've had a um customer service experience with the Waymo Team where my friend left an iPhone. And it was very thought and customer experience was great, twenty four hour service, like

1:23:49 Top to bottom. Great great product design, great service design. I just got into Waymo actually, uh in the wait list. And so I'm excited to actually try it. I was actually treated as press early on to Right in a Waymo. Yeah. With like a person from the company just experience it.

1:24:05 And then I never got access to it after, so now I finally can try it. Enjoy. It's so nice. It's my preferred mode of travel. The future. There's We've talked about a lot of ways the world is changing. That's another great example. No.

1:24:17 Two questions. To go? Your favorite life motto that you often Come back to, share with friends or family they find useful in work or in life. Fast speed's right.

1:24:27 Like Every time. When Debating between Do I like noodle this for a thousand years and try to come to the perfect solution?

1:24:37 Or do I make a decision and get executing a direction I have conviction on? I always I like Consistently see and believe. Uh Fast. At the end of the game. I mean like the end of the day.

1:24:48 wins. So fast be three. Final question. You mentioned TikTok. You put a bunch of awesome content out on TikTok. Any advice slash is there a tip you could share with someone that is trying to be successful on TikTok from your experience.

1:25:03 I've been neglecting my TikTok for a little bit with with new job and winter with sick kids. This is my advice. And I think you know this. Consistency Drives. audience growth, which is

1:25:16 When I was on TikTok Posting every day. You would get followers and engagement and the algorithm would, you know. Bless you. And when you don't

1:25:24 You don't. So I think consistency in almost all things wins. The other thing that I I I think is a really good advice for any quote unquote creator of whatever scale of whatever ambition is I think thinking about content creation is documentation, not creative generation, is really helpful. So I just like to talk about what I think about at work and I like to find interesting meeting or interesting interaction.

1:25:47 document why I thought that was interesting or what could be done better. And that becomes the basis of a very natural flow. of content for me. So It's a tactic that's worked really well for me and helps me do do stuff in my Free time.

1:26:00 Amazing. It might be time to start exploring Instagram also with all this TikTok news. Yeah, I know. Yeah. Claire, before we started this podcast, asked you what your goal for this was, and it was to be helpful to people. I think we've one hundred percent done that in so many different ways. Thank you again so much for being here. Two fine questions. We already covered these, but just to refresh people's memories, where can people find you online? They want to reach out and then how can listeners be useful to you? So LinkedIn um X, I'm Claire Vaux, all one word, and then on TikTok

1:26:29 You know, get me back into it. Give me a follow. Maybe I'll I'll start posting some of my excellent content, but it's chief product uh chief product officer. Awesome. And then how can people be useful to you? I help each other. That's that's what I want the most, which is I do I do really see it is a tough time. in tech right now, and there are a lot of people looking for jobs. So one I think help each other. And then the other the other thing that I really, if I could ask your audience anything is If you have a job where your job is

1:26:58 Typing into an internet box to create products out of nothing. really acknowledge the like privilege and joy of that job and and try to have some fun because a lot of people want to sit where you're sitting. So have fun, appreciate what you have. Enjoy it. Enjoy each other. Great and important advice to leave people with. Claire, I thank you so much for being here.

1:27:17 Thank you. Bye everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at Lenny's Podcast.com.

1:27:40 See you in the next episode.

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