Becoming more strategic, navigating difficult colleagues, harnessing founder mode, and more | Anneka Gupta (Chief Product Officer at Rubrik)

0:00 When people say I want someone that's strategic, what they're really saying is I want someone that can come up with and articulate a compelling and simple why. behind the decisions and the direction of the company and product. So that's number one. And the second piece is I want someone that's going to champion and be a change agent. to do things that may be hard, but actually best for the long term interest of the product or company, even though those things are not gonna be easy to execute on. And I think if you have one without the other,

0:35 Ultimately people are not gonna see you as strategic. Today my guest is Annika Gupta. Annika is chief product officer at Rubric. A lecture on product management at Stanford University's Graduate School of Business. And on the board of tenuity.

0:51 Previously she was president, GM, and head of product at LiveRamp. Where she spent eleven years and joined as one of their earliest employees. A bunch of former guests recommended Anika come on this podcast, and you will soon see why. In our conversation, Anika shares a ton of powerful advice. On navigating difficult personalities, giving and hearing hard feedback. Bringing humor and gratitude to every situation.

1:14 Managing your energy versus managing your time. Super tactical tips for how to become more strategic? and how to make better decisions, and also how to break into product management for people that are trying to become product managers. There's something in this episode for everyone, and I am excited for you to learn from Annika. If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes, and it helps the podcast tremendously.

1:40 With that, I bring you Anika Gupta. Annika, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me. So I want to start with a question that I've started to ask.

1:55 guests that come on the podcast that have had extraordinarily successful careers and also just consistently successful careers. So here's the question. What do you believe are one or two skills? or mindsets or habits. that you think most contributed to your success.

2:11 That you think might be helpful for other people to learn and build. to help them have more successful careers. So it's funny, before we kicked this off, you talked about the post it that you have on your computer that says have fun. And my one mindset uh that I really have leaned into after someone actually gave me advice on this is to figure out How to have fun in my job?

2:36 Even in the most difficult of times. And the reason why I say that is because when you're hit with really hard times, it's easy operate from a mindset of scarcity. And to look at everything as an unachievable hurdle to overcome. And when I was able to switch my mindset and say, Well I'm actually gonna figure out a way to have fun with this. It actually changed my entire approach.

2:59 For how to deal with super difficult situations. And this advice specifically came up to me when I had a scenario where I had to essentially change out all of my direct reports. In very short order.

3:13 And I figured that out. It was a super daunting situation. I didn't know how I was gonna manage. And at first I felt so scared by what was ahead of me and how much change I was gonna have to go through. In a very short period of time. But when I got this advice, I started to try to reframe my thinking and it actually really made it so that I was able to get through that hard time. And open my mind up to so many more opportunities. So now I try to embody that in every situation that I come up.

3:41 Come across. where I'm faced with something super, super challenging. I love this advice. It's something that I've recently seen. Also in public speaking, if you can just frame Reframe your thinking from

3:52 I'm scared of this too. Um this is gonna be fun. I'm gonna have so much fun doing this. It's gonna be Like this energy and anxiety I'm feeling is me feeling like it's gonna be a lot of fun. So spending a little more time here, how how do you actually do this? So in this case, you shared an example of your basically you have to fire a bunch of people. Not something uh one can Uh

4:10 Quickly think about how to have fun with that. How do you how did you do this? Is it just in your mind you're like I'm gonna have fun with this, or is there something tactically people can do to make something fun? I think there were a couple of things that I did and and I've continued to do. One is figure out and really look at the situation. And ask myself, what can I learn from this situation? What can I get out of this that's a positive outcome, even though it is incredibly challenging to be facing it right now. So that's one thing that I've done. The second thing I think that has been really helpful

4:38 is in going into meetings or other s situations where I was bringing I was trying to figure out how to collectively solve some big challenge. Figuring out how to bring humor into the meeting. And just starting it on a light note. And that elevated my own uh mood and way I was approaching the meeting, but also adds a level of levity to the situation for other people as well, which I think as a leader is super important because it's not just about your own mindset, but how are you transferring that mindset to the people that you're working with and the people that are working for you.

5:12 Got it. So part of it is just like how do I add a little humor? Part of it is just thinking, How do I make this fun? Is part of this just like this is not as important as Yeah. Yeah. Thing people make it out to be

5:23 And w we could just have a little fun with this thing. It doesn't have to be like we're not, you know, curing cancer. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely, I think that helps. reflecting a on this too, I feel like a lot of it comes down to the amount of emotional and mental energy I can bring to solving a problem. And there's always so much going on in life, like personal life as well as uh professional life.

5:45 Trying to figure out how can I architect my day and time. To maximize my energy. And be able to bring my full self to work and to these difficult situations so that I can have that mindset. to look at things more broadly versus operating from a place of scarcity.

6:04 And that may come down to like simple things like making sure that I have lunch. There was sometimes when things get so busy like, Oh, I'm just gonna grab a protein bar and I'm gonna skip lunch, but I found that that really decreases my energy. Or trying to do things that are really difficult. late in the day, five to six PM is my worst time of day. And I know that about myself. So I'm not gonna schedule in my d most difficult meeting or writing up a strategy deck or something for that period of time because I know that that's not gonna be my best and it's actually going to make it more difficult for me to get the work done.

6:36 that has being able to kind of manage my my energy levels and figuring out how to schedule my time for my energy has really allowed me also to figure out how to have that abundant mindset in all situations. This episode is brought to you by the Enterprise Ready Conference, a one day event in San Francisco. bringing together product and engineering leaders shaping the future of Enterprise SaaS. The event features a curated list of speakers with direct experience building for the enterprise, including leaders from OpenAI, Vanta, Checker, Dropbox, and Canva. Topics include advanced identity management, compliance, encryption, and logging.

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9:06 I'm gonna go in a totally different direction. We were before we were recording, we were also chatting about founder mode. And this is recently this episode we're recording shortly after Paul Graham. put out as now classic instant classic founder mode mode post. And uh he had some really interesting takes on uh ways to think about founder mode, both from product leader perspective, from a founder perspective. So

9:29 There's kind of two questions I wanna ask, but just broadly, what's your take on And remote. Well, first of all, I think Paul Graham did an amazing thing by putting a name to something so many of us have seen in practice. And while he didn't in his article say this is exactly what this is, I think many, many people that I talked to were like, Oh yeah, I recognize this. I recognize people that I've worked for that have

9:50 done founder CEOs that have done founder mode great. Founders that have done founder mode poorly. And it opened up a level of discussion. That I think is really valuable. for everyone to be having, whether you're a founder

10:02 Or you're someone that works for a founder. Okay, so I'm gonna ask two questions around this. One is from the perspective of working for a founder in founder mode. Yeah, there is being a product leader in fountain remote. So first of all Imagine you've worked with

10:14 A few founders that operate in founder mode. As a CPO, as a head of product, that's a Often a difficult place to be between the founder and the team that are building the thing. Uh What have you learned about how to effectively work as a product leader?

10:27 Uh with a founder in founder mode. So I think when a founder is in founder mode, what they are doing and if they're doing it well, what they're doing is really deeply understanding the business. And then figuring out when to use their power as a founder. to either tweak things and send something in a slightly different direction Or fundamentally innovate and completely change directions or completely innovate in a in a totally new area.

10:56 Now, I think the way to use that effectively as a a head of product is to recognize that they have that power, to figure out how to use that power to get the things done that you know are best for the company. So I always think about like I have all the people around me, whether they're people on my team, my peers or my CEO These are different resources I have to go get.

11:19 a initiative done or get work done in the company. And as a having a founder that can effectively operate in founder mode. means that I can go and have a conversation with the CEO and say, hey, look, like we have this huge opportunity and this is these are the things that aren't working. And I need your help. To help.

11:39 figure out how we can move the needle more substantially in the direction that we need to go. And so activating that founder, that CEO to really be able to push the initiative. that I think is best by making them an ally in doing so. So I think that's one aspect. The second aspect is which Often happens at

11:56 very difficult for many people when And I've had this happen to me many times is when founders like well, I have this idea. And then you may or may not agree that that's the best direction to go in. And how do you navigate that? that kind of situation. So one is actually taking a step back and objectively saying, Well

12:14 Why are they pushing this? Maybe it's the wrong mechanism to go actually get done a strategy that's quite important for the company. So having a really deep understanding about why are they asking this? What are they ultimately trying to get at? And what is the objective that they're trying to get at? And is this the right way to get at it? And if the answer is no to that, then you can go have a conversation. If you know what the objective is, you can go have a conversation.

12:37 With that founder and say, Hey, look, I know this is what you're trying to do. But maybe instead of looking at option A here of how we go about tackling this, we should have explored these three other options instead. And that can help you and help navigate that conversation. Now sometimes it's difficult to even get to that kind of understanding of the objective because someone might be just super set in their ways of, Hey, I'm gonna go, I really wanna go after this opportunity. It's my pet project.

13:05 Then you have to decide as a head of product. Do I really want to fight this? Or Do I just you know, g give in on this, let it go, and you know, also make sure that we get the stuff done that's most important to the company. You have to make that

13:18 that judgment call as a head of product and decide You know what? Is really gonna make or break the company, what's the hill that I'm gonna die on? And is this something that I can shift or is this something that is is not worth shifting? Of course, it comes down to. The personality I've been very fortunate that I've actually had very few

13:34 of those situations where I uh where the founder has been like, Hey, I really want to go in this direction and I haven't agreed, at least with what we're trying to go after, regardless of like the mechanism behind it. I really love the point you made, especially about how the founder could be this lever to get things done when you f identify

13:53 Something needs to change. The best way to change that is just can Have the founder. Go in there. Tell everyone, hey, we're gonna do this thing differently.

14:01 such a like a a positive spin on how to leverage founder mode where founder actually has a lot of power to change that Other people in the company don't. Okay, so let's go from the other side. So uh I was talking in Nikel Singal, who runs the skip, which is a community you're part of about you. And he said that you're your leader who excels in founder mode, that you operate in fountain mode a lot.

14:22 And so as a product leader What have you learned about just how to think in founder, operate in found remote leverage that approach to Leading teams, leading product teams. Yeah, I think it's often um easy as a leader to say

14:37 I'm not gonna roll up my sleeves and get into the details of the business or ask a lot of detailed questions about the business because You want to empower people. And make them successful. And what I've found is that understanding the details of the business and asking questions and understanding to the utmost extent you can What's working? What's not? What are the financial goals of the business? Are we on track to get there? How are we making decisions, getting into that level of depth?

15:06 is super important, and then you can decide. as a leader, what do you want to do with that information? So there's a lot of information that I collect. about what's happening in the organization, the decisions that we're making that I don't do anything with at a point in time. That's my choice to make. But I want the information because in understanding the depth and

15:25 what is happening I can decide where I actually think I need to go in deep and make up uh either very significant course correction or a a small course correction.

15:37 And then the way that I think about how do I bring my team along for that. So they don't feel like I'm coming in and stomping all over the work that they're doing or trying to readjudicate a decision is one is like how do I get in there early? So how do I ask what one one of the tactics I use is I ask people to present their strategies for things that I think we may need to do a course correction on.

15:58 And I have them come in and then I ask them questions and then I make suggestion And I'm able to do that in a forum where it doesn't feel like I'm coming in and rewriting the entire strategy, but I'm giving them there an opportunity to present their best thinking and then trying to figure out how do I take that and make that Better. And make them feel like I'm making it better versus

16:19 stomping all over and and dismissing the work that they've done. Uh and I pick a strategic set of areas. So I think about like what is most important for the business. What's gonna kill the business if we don't get right. And what are the biggest opportunities for the business that we need to go after, regardless of how difficult it is for us to actually execute on that. And by doing that

16:39 Then at least I have clarity in my mind. And I can provide clarity to the team about what is most important And rally the troops around making that stuff happen. If that is what is

16:50 essentially right. And I'll have all the context because I've asked all the questions of like why this is right for the business. Why is this going to help us with increase margins or get better growth or get into a new persona if that's what we're trying to do as an overall organization. So in that in that example and and I love this tactic. You have your team come in, you ask'em, tell me which what the strategy is for this thing that you're working on. Y the what you've seen work is instead of like, no, this is

17:15 Broken, this is wrong, this isn't gonna work. Your approach is Ask questions. And hope that they see the Flaws or gaps.

17:23 Is that is that Yeah, it's asked questions, but it's not always you can't always lead someone Somewhere with asking questions. It's also sharing a hypothesis. So I might have a particular hypothesis about the business where I might say something like Well, I was talking to Security leaders. in our customer advisory board recently.

17:42 And I heard this piece of feedback and this is what it made me think about our strategy. What do you think about that? And then let them say like okay, yeah, actually I see this, or maybe I have some follow up questions. And it actually opens a whole discussion where I'm still able to point my to uh provide my perspective and point of view.

18:01 But not completely shut down the discussion. Because what I always worry about as a leader is I'm gonna come in and say something and because I'm one of the more senior people in the room. No one is going to gonna say if they have a concern. And the reality is uh I'm not always right. Far from it. But I wanna be able to seed

18:18 seed an assumption and then have a discussion based on that. And then figure out what the right outcome is. about what we should do next based on that discussion. Speaking of strategy, you shared with me that when you at one point in your career You got this feedback that you just weren't strategic enough.

18:35 And the that comment led you to research and dig into what does it mean to be strategic. And also just to level up your Strategic mindset and the way you think about strategy. What did you end up with recognizing is

18:49 Being strategic, what is that? In your work. In your research and then how did you actually get better at this at this work on being strategic? I ha got this feedback once in a performance review and then I actually got it as well a few years ago when I was interviewing for Head of Product Roles and I thought I had made a lot of progress on it. But when I reflected back, I think it actually all came back to the same themes.

19:10 Which was Think When people say I want someone that's strategic. What they're really saying is I want someone that can come up with and articulate a compelling and simple why behind the decisions

19:24 And the direction of company and product. So that's number one. And the second piece is

19:30 I want someone that's going to champion and be a change agent. To do things that Maybe hard? But actually best for the long term interest of the product or company.

19:42 Even though those things are not gonna be easy to to execute on. And I think if you have one without the other ultimately people are not gonna see you as strategic. If you're really good at at articulating the why but you're only bringing small ideas to the table, then that's not strategic. If you're

19:59 championing big ideas, but you can't articulate the why behind them in a compelling and simple way. then you're not gonna be seen as strategic either. So that's the formula that that I've come up with. The This is what it means. And so I've focused a lot on how do I make sure I do both of these things? How do I champion a few things that are really big ideas.

20:19 that are going to help change the direction of the company and then how do I articulate that in a simple and compelling way? That's such a cool, simple way of thinking about this. Is there an example from your work that might illustrate some of this? From from a project you worked on or a product you built? I can take some recent examples. We've been doing a lot of strategic planning for where do we want to be as a company over the next three years. And Rubric operates in the cybersecurity space. It's a very fast moving landscape.

20:48 There's a lot of places that we could Go as a p business. And one of the ways that um you know, I've exhibited this and and this what I recommend to other people too is sometimes it's really hard. to come up with the compelling and simple why behind something.

21:02 And sometimes also really hard to come up with like a really big idea out of thin air. So these things can be very challenging. The first step that I found is very useful and I use this tactic every single day in meetings. It's just summarization. So hearing bringing people together, lots of different voices into a room.

21:22 And hearing what they have to say. And it various times in the conversation. Summarizing what people are saying. and summarizing what that means in terms of the direction that we could go in.

21:34 And then that's a checkpoint of saying, Okay, this is how I've synthesized what What is happening? Is this correct? Or do we actually need to do another turn because we don't all agree with where where we're landing here? And that summarization, even though I may not be adding a new idea into that.

21:50 I found people actually view that. a strategy. They view the summarization, the effect of summarization as strategy. So I think that's one Element? And then what I've also found is that When I summarise what other people

22:02 are saying and especially multiple different stakeholders Then I can think about offline. And not in the context of like right in the meeting. Some enjoying the meeting too, I guess. Is how do I make this idea one click better?

22:16 And it's not about how do you do something radically, radically different. But taking ideas and then making it slightly better. Slightly better. And there are ways and w when you think about that, especially from an outside in perspective of what are the customer problems we're trying to solve and how are we gonna take this to market. And don't worry about how difficult the technical implementation is going to be.

22:36 Ten. you start to get to these big ideas that can really be the the change agent ideas. So I've started doing this more and more and I think especially in the past Three to six months. And I'm seeing a material difference in terms of

22:51 the number of big ideas that we're going and pursuing overall as a company. And also the quality of the strategic thinking that I can bring to the table. And it's been really exciting and rewarding. There's so much you're sharing that resonates with other podcast episodes. For example, this idea of just going one click better. I had uh Roger Martin on the podcast. I wrote this book, Playing to Win, which is one of the more

23:13 Populogy. Moks And he has the concept of betterment as a way to work on strategy. A lot of people go like huge with a big strategy envision his advice is just Find the thing that is the biggest constraint and bottleneck to your business right now and just make it better.

23:28 And that's your next step. And then just keep doing it. And you'll you'll end up in a much better place over time, even though it feels like you're just doing one little thing. And so I love this idea of just going picking one thing and making it one click better. There's gonna be an episode that comes out right before this with

23:44 uh Alex Kamarowski and he has this concept of the adjacent possible and it's just like find the next thing that's possible. And focus on that versus some big lofty thing. So I'm just sharing a bunch of stuff. It's not a question. Uh.

23:57 That totally resonates though. Okay, okay, okay, great. Uh And then the summarization idea, I love it. So tactical. Basically any PM can do this just in a meeting. Just like okay, let me just summarize to make sure everyone's on the same page. Funny enough, this is the feedback I get on this podcast, and I haven't been doing this in our conversation yet, but I often try to summarize the person's

24:14 Point. And everyone's like, Oh, I love that you do that. That's so helpful. And so Mm-hmm. So I totally see the power of that in my experience.

24:22 It also makes people feel heard and especially when you have a lot of diverse voices in the room. that may not agree on all things but have valid Few points. it helps bring people together and ultimately the diverse perspectives are going to yield better insights and better decisions for the organization. So you want that. But some people shy away from that because it's scary because you have to deal with a lot of conflict.

24:45 And it's a way to kind of move beyond the conflict and get to the heart of an issue, which In my mind. That's what the PM job is all about, is getting to the very, very heart of a problem. If someone wants to work on the skill of

24:59 summarizing as kind of a tactic. Can you give just like Like an example of how you would do that? Are there like phrases you, there are words or an example you could give of just like here's how it would look in a meeting? Yeah. Um, so often if there's a lot of discussion going on, sometimes it can be a little hard to insert yourself. I still may insert myself and say, Hey Let me pause here for a second.

25:20 And try to Capture what has been said. This is what I've heard. I've heard that We have you know our customers are having these kinds of challenges. We feel like this is the way that we wanna solve these challenges. We have a right to win in this way.

25:34 And therefore we're gonna take this action. Is everyone in agreement with that or? Um or is there some dissent about whether you know that that's an accurate portrayal of where we've landed with this conversation. And that's the way I'll I'll fra frame it up and again ending it on a question.

25:50 So that you're not coming in and just being like, Hey, this is what where we're we're at, but then inviting people To discuss and say yes or No, I agree with eight ninety percent of that, but ten percent. We're ten percent off. And that helps move the conversation forward because sometimes you'll get stuck in these circular discussions that aren't moving forward and you need to figure out a way to move it forward.

26:11 And then your experience as just doing that makes you look more strategic and Yeah. Gives people the impression you're thinking strategically. Yeah. Awesome. The other way you can do it is if you're in a room with someone and you have a whiteboard. Is actually summarized on the whiteboard while people are talking. And then show your summarized framework or whatever. on that. So that's kind of a good way to do it too if you're having a hard time interrupting the flow of discussion.

26:36 Or you don't feel as comfortable thinking on your feet. And interrupting and then framing your your Point of view. Um you can do that in Zoom. You can also use a chat. I've done that very effectively and said, I'm not gonna interrupt the flow of conversation.

26:50 I'm just gonna summarize in Zoom chat. This is what I've heard. Um, and this is what I think Well, we're saying in this conversation. And then sometimes that'll get invited back into the broader conversation.

27:01 um that's happening live on the zoom itself. That's a much lower stakes way of doing it any I'm picturing all the PMs listening to this are gonna start doing this and there's gonna be all these summaries now in Zoom chats and everyone be like, Oh my god, why's everything? And then Zoom AI will start just doing it all for you. Then we'll have to think again. And then PMs are over and they have your place to sell.

27:21 Um Okay, so then just to close the loop on becoming more strategic, your advice is When someone's like, Hey, you're not strategic enough, you need to be more strategic Your insights is the two things to work on is one. be clear on the whys behind the ideas that you're working on.

27:36 And be very cl crystal clear. People may not be Understanding why you're working on The things you want to work on, the things you're pitching. And then two is actually be the person that makes these things happen. Not just

27:47 Put a dock out there. If you're not actually achieving them, people are gonna think you're not strategic. Yep. Awesome. Okay. I'm gonna talk about decision making. You have a really interesting perspective on how to become a better decision maker in relation to being kind of a historian.

28:03 Which I love this concept, talk about that insight. Yeah, um so I was at my previous company for eleven years. So I kind of ended up becoming the historian and when I joined Rubric about three years ago, I came into an organization that had a lot of history that I just didn't know about. So one of the things that I decided to do when I joined the company

28:25 was to really understand what happened in the past? Like what were the products that we launched that weren't successful? Why weren't they successful? What was the perspective on the history of how we've decided to develop the things that we've had we did and Why

28:43 what was the perception of different people in the organization and I tried to construct this like past knowledge of what had happened and what were the decisions that were made and why were those decisions made, whether they were good or bad. Did it matter? so that I could better understand

29:00 how to make decisions going forward. And to learn from the mistakes that I didn't personally live through. And I think that's the part that's really important about being a historian. You can always be a historian. It doesn't have to be just when you join a company, but even today I'll hear about projects. from many years ago that people will bring up and I'll be like, Tell me about this project. Why like what happened with it? How did we decide to do this and just really

29:23 lear and be curious about it because that gives me more context into Well What is it that we did poorly that And how can we do that better? And also what is the baggage that people have around trying to do something similar again? Because people always come with their baggage of, oh, this hasn't worked before, so why is it gonna work now?

29:42 And as a product leader, you're obviously putting in place a lot of thoughts and ideas around this is what I want to go achieve and these are the initiatives. And some people are gonna come and say, Well, we've tried that before, especially but at an organization that's been around for a while. I've been that guy. We've done this so many times. Why are we This it didn't work. Why are we thinking about this again?

30:02 So okay, so the advice is here, if you're new to a company especially. go through a bunch of just like study the past decisions that were made. And share them out. If As a part of that. And then as a side effect, it'll help you make better decisions because you'll have this history about what the company has done.

30:19 I love that. Along the same lines of decision making, I asked uh your former colleague Rachel Wolan What to ask you? And she said that Your parting advice when she left to join a different company.

30:31 was it's not about making the right decision, it's about making the decision. And it that's like the thing she remembered about you most. That parting advice. Talk about why that is so important and Your insight there. it's very easy to get into analysis paralysis before making a decision. And say, Well, if I just had this one more data point, if I just knew this

30:51 Then I could make a decision. But the reality is is that you are always operating off of imprecise information as a product leader. And what I've found is that once you commit to a decision You actually learn more. post committing to that decision about what's gonna work and not gonna work and you get out move out of the hypothetical.

31:09 And as long as your decision is like seventy percent Right. You can iterate on that twenty, thirty percent in either direction. Uh, but if you don't commit, then you don't actually get any new information. that is high fidelity and high quality.

31:25 So I'm big d m a believer in in making decisions. I know you've had a few guests talk about speed is super important in organizations. Well, I think making decisions quickly and then being able to iterate on them is a is a form of that. It Just make a decision, don't make it uninformed, but have a strong hypothesis.

31:42 And then just keep testing whether that hypothesis is accurate or not, and you'll shift here and there. You might build something that you have to throw away. twenty percent of the work on, but that's okay. It's better than making no decision at all because you won't get any new information if you don't make any decision at all. As a PM that might be listening to this feeling like, okay, yeah, that sounds great, but then I make a bad decision and then my

32:04 And then Annika's gonna be like, You messed up here. You got the wrong you've shipped the wrong thing here, it didn't work. How do you How do you create a culture where People don't feel that and aren't as afraid of Making bad decisions and making decisions with seventy percent of the information.

32:20 I think part of it comes down to making sure there's a strong hypothesis that Everyone understands when you're making the decision. Where it might not just be one hypothesis, it might be a series of high series of hypotheses. of an assumptions that we're making that are informing the the decision. So it might be a hypothesis that, you know some this segment of customers is going to be willing to pay for this.

32:44 product because it's solving an urgent and important enough need for them that they're gonna go do it. And this is the evidence we have to find it, but this is also the stuff we don't know. And then along the way We learn whether that hypothesis is true or not. And so at the end of the day, if something didn't work out We can go back to the original hypothesis and say, Well

33:03 This is what we learned in this process that we are um our hypothesis was actually not true. And we learned all of this after the fact. And I think the way to Make a culture of

33:15 risk taking and w people willing to make these bets and go out on a limb. is to reward the learning versus the outcome. And that's what I try to focus on is if we're constantly learning it is okay if we make bad decisions. But we learn from them and we get better. for next time. And even in making this bad decision, we learn something about our customers or our business that we otherwise wouldn't have learned that we can use in some in another context.

33:39 I love first of all, I love that this comes back to your Stratic. lesson of just if you have a strong Y Behind something. That's

33:49 incredibly powerful and people Well be confident that you're thinking strategically. Uh two, I was just at a uh talk with Zach when he was giving he's being interviewed at the Chase Center, the the choir podcast at this whole event and His main thing that he talked about that Facebook That he values most in

34:04 The culture Facebook is Learning faster than anyone else. shipping stuff that isn't perfect, but Just so that you can get one more turn. And learn something faster than someone else.

34:14 So that super resonates. That's Facebook's culture. Um Is there an example of something you worked on where you Were that you where you did that, where you kinda shipped something that you weren't fully confident in and you learn faster? Yeah, I mean I I think there's a lot because Anytime you're shipping products, there's so many different things that could go right and wrong. you know, there's a situation where

34:36 we created a really amazing high value product and we decided not to monetize it. And then we realized after the fact wait, we should have monetized it. So we're trying to figure out how to package some new capabilities. To monetize. this thing that we know has a lot of value without taking away what we've already given to existing customers.

34:57 So that was something we learned along the way that we originally didn't think Oh, we should monetize this, but then we realize there's actually an avenue to do that. After the fact. There's been other things where we've developed a set of capabilities thinking that

35:11 It will solve for this new persona's problems. But then we misunderstood how easy it was going to be to go sell to that new persona within our own organization. I've made that mistake many times, actually. And so now I I think that now I've what I've taken from that is

35:29 really know how you're gonna sell something. And who's gonna do the selling before you actually go build out the product. Because if you don't have that Right, focus. you may build out the best product and yet it's gonna get zero adoption because no one in your organization is ready to sell it.

35:46 Uh so there's tons of stuff like that where it's like been Okay, yeah, we can we've learned something from this and it's not all throwaway. It just means that we've got to do something differently for this product. And we need to do something differently for our organization going forward. This episode is brought to you by Epo.

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37:15 dot com slash Lenny. I wanna come back to something Rachel also shared with me when asked her. What questions to ask you? And by the way, first of all she spent like A lot of time raving about how amazing you are first. That was the first

37:31 conversations and then she came up with a bunch of questions to ask you. And so her other question was about how good you are at navigating very difficult personalities. She shared this quote that she constantly saw you interact with and bring together several leaders who had much higher egos. and very desperate points of view who are not informed or thoughtful.

37:51 Or as gracious as you were. And she also said you have very little ego. And so she wanted me just to ask you for how what you've learned about how to navigate very difficult personalities and how people align when uh is not innately w what they want to do.

38:06 I try to embody the mindset of feeling like and believing that I can work with anyone. And I think what

38:18 I do when I hit a difficult personality and difficult personalities come in all shapes and sizes and forms. Is I really try to understand what drives that person. What really what is it that they really care about? hopefully it's they care about something deeply about the company and making the company successful.

38:37 Sometimes it's so they care about their own personal career, how they're showing up. What people view of them. That's fine. I just need to understand what it is that they really care about. And then if I need something from them. What is it that I can do to motivate them

38:53 to find what I What I need from them important. and trying to make that match of like they have this desire kind of like building a product. They have this desire. And how am I gonna get them to care about the thing that I'm gonna care that I wanna care about? The other thing I do is like instead of feeling like anger

39:11 Or frustration with the person. Uh, and instead trying to shift that to a mindset of feeling gratitude. And a positive emotion about that. is I look at them and I ask myself, what can I learn? And maybe I don't want to adopt their personality or

39:28 Do uh operate the way that they are operating, but Everyone has something. That they can teach you. uh whether it's their communication style or the where they're able to marshal people together.

39:40 the way they come up with visionary ideas, whatever it may be. trying to study that person and be curious about them. Learn from them and then Thank them for that and feel the generosity genuinely about what I got from this situation. It's easier to do sometimes than others.

39:58 But I think it comes back to that abundant mindset. If you could approach it with an abundant mindset. Then you can Really consciously do this and when you actually learn something, you will feel the gratitude. when you recognize that you are able to get something from that.

40:13 I love that this connects with your other original piece of advice of just turning something into this is gonna be fun. Let's make this fun. And in this case it's like make it great. What can I learn from this person even though they're really annoying me and frustrating and Don't want anything Done.

40:28 And then your other point of understanding What they want and you kind of using that as a way to Pull them in your direction. How do you figure out what they want? Do you have any tricks for just like here's how I learn what this person's motivations are and goals are?

40:42 Talk to other people that have worked with them before. And have done so successfully. So that might be people that work for them. Because if you work for a person like that, you have to figure out And and and are you're successfully what successful working for that person, you probably understand what makes them tick.

40:58 Uh so that's one or work but talk to people that are peers. Anything like that to try to understand and build this view of us person Yeah. Helps me. empathize with them and also helps me understand what they may be wanting to get out of a situation and why.

41:16 Love that. That's in yeah, they don't have to be involved in that. You just ask other people What is this person's motivations? And then ideas. uh connect what they want with the thing you're trying to

41:25 Okay. Beautiful. Uh I really love this idea of when you're frustrated by someone just like reframing it to like I'm grateful I'm gonna learn something from this person in our interaction, even though uh they're making life hard for me. I really love that. Another skill I hear you're really strong at, and this comes from another one of your colleagues

41:43 Uh Hema Mohan. uh share that you're World class it. Giving feedback. giving hard feedback and receiving hard feedback.

41:53 And so I wanna just ask you, what have you learned about how to do this? It's very hard to give heart feedback. Why it's called heart feedback. So either from either direction, what do you learn about? receiving hard feedback or giving heart feedback where someone actually hears you and doesn't get, you know, defensive. The answer is so much. I've learned so much from it. So maybe I'll t I'll start with receiving feedback. Um so on the receiving feedback side.

42:15 I think it's very natural to feel upset. Defensive all the negative emotions when you first see a piece of negative feedback, whether it's you're reading it in a employee survey or you're receiving it in a one on one from a direct report or from a manager or from a peer. And

42:35 I try to let myself just feel the things that I'm gonna feel. And sometimes that's an emotional feeling. Sometimes that means I want to step out of the room or depends on who I'm talking to. But let myself feel the things that I'm gonna feel and then Once that's passed, whether that's a few hours or a few days. Don't react. Don't try to say, Oh, I don't believe this.

42:56 Listen. And then ask myself, like, okay. Well, where is this feedback coming from? Like why why am I getting this feedback? And Is

43:06 uh and try to be super curious about it. And that might be going back to the person that gave me the feedback and asking again, maybe asking someone, That's a pure Um in or somewhere in the organization that might have more context and and flavor to what the feedback really is.

43:21 Just trying to learn. And then I can decide. Do I think this is valid or not? Is this something I should do something about or not? Actually all feedback I think is valid. people's feelings are valid, but doesn't mean that you need to do something about all of those things. And so that has Yeah.

43:36 Going through that process and like letting myself ride the emotional wave, uh, and not judging myself for that. But then not reacting, um, and letting myself then figure out and come back curious. And I think when you come back curious, people then want to give you more feedback. because they know that you're listening and that you're You're hearing what they say. So the advice is feel it. Like don't block it off and be like no no no no no this isn't real.

44:00 So fully let your body go through the roller coaster of feeling the negative feedback. Sometimes the feedback is just like, no, this isn't actually a thing. Any just like heuristic of like I should actually pay attention to this deeply or just like let me wait for more data points.

44:15 Yeah, I think in product you receive feedback all the time for your organization or for yourself and You can't make everyone happy. Like everyone wants a different thing from product. So I think this comes up quite often. Uh where

44:28 there's a lot of feedback for the organization or for you as a leader, and you have to decide what to focus on and what not to focus on. I always try to anchor on Well, what is best for the company and what does the company need for me and from my team at this point in time? And there's stuff that is a must have on that list. And there's stuff that's nice to have.

44:50 And sometimes, you know, there's just too many must haves to go deal with the nice to haves and You have to just be like, Well, you know, I know this is a problem, or I know we could be do ten percent better in this, but it actually doesn't matter. as much as fixing these things that are really, really important. and are really what's gonna help my organization deliver what it needs to.

45:10 for the company and for the business overall. In terms of receiving hard feedback, so you shared one example or I shared an example where someone said you weren't strategic enough. Is there another example of receiving hard feedback that you got? You're like That sucks. Either Earlier in your career, more recently, anything else come to mind?

45:26 I mean all the time. So there's always hard stuff. Um Yeah, it's like there will people will give feedback of Oh um

45:35 I feel like were not moving fast enough. on our roadmap and priorities. We need to be doing more. Why aren't we moving fast? Uh or never heard that one before. Never heard that one before, right? Um or

45:50 um disparaging the direction that we're taking a certain product because they don't agree with it because a competitor is doing something else, but we've decided for our reasons and we're not gonna go follow that path. Like there's always something That that people have negative feedback about. And sometimes I'm like, okay, this is an eye roll. Like I understand where they're coming from. I understand why they're giving me this feedback, but I also don't agree that we should change directions because of it.

46:17 Uh so I don't know. Oh like some of the things cut d cut deeper than others when I think people are making like personal statements about my team or their feeling. Like hey the pride team isn't listening to feedback or the pride team has a bad culture, like Annika isn't listening, things like that. cut deep and are a lot More

46:37 They they may I know like physically or physiologically they make me kind of seize up a little bit, but again, then I try to feel the things I'm gonna feel. And try to understand why are they saying that. Why do they really feel that? And what does that mean behaviorally that I have to do differently or my team has to do differently, or maybe just two people on my team need to do differently and someone is extrapolating this out to be a much bigger problem than actually is. Awesome. Okay.

47:01 And then I we were gonna shift to What you've learned about giving hard feedback so that someone actually listens and doesn't just put up a shield and like it's not real. So I think in giving feedback You can never ful how someone else is going to respond to that feedback. All you can control is Is

47:19 what you do, your body language, and what you say. And what I have found is that If I can convey, and I will say this very directly to people I care so much about you And I'm giving you this feedback.

47:33 Because I want you to be successful and I want you To be able to reach the pinnacle of what I know you can accomplish. And you do all of that setup and you don't just hope that they understand that. You actually explicitly say that and you show that in your body language.

47:48 Then It makes the other person much more receptive to hearing whatever you have to say. And then I think the other piece is that you should not You've gotta be direct. Like the worst feedback is the kind of passive aggressive feedback versus saying directly this is what

48:03 you are doing, or this is how you are being perceived in the organization. And here are the three things that you can do. to make it to change the way you're being perceived or to change Ch change the outcomes of of what you're driving or become more strategic or whatever it is that I'm trying to give feedback on.

48:20 And I try I do a lot of prep. Before I give someone a lot of feedback. I really think about like how can I frame this in a way that's gonna resonate with them. that doesn't come across as attacking them. But helps them understand.

48:33 why what they're doing isn't working or is being perceived Poorly. And try to give them examples and even examples that I've personally had to go through myself. of how I've approached those situations.

48:47 uh and let them ask questions and brainstorm with them be part of the solution versus saying, here's all this feedback Now you go figure out what to do with it. It reminds me of um radical candor. Basically make people feel like Care deeply about them, but chant be very direct about what they can be.

49:03 Doing better. Are there like phrases or ways you kind of set up the conversation you talk you mentioned if you have just like I want to help you become the best version of who you could be and what you're capable of. There any phrases you find helpful that you've come back to often of just like a way to Start the conversation.

49:19 Yeah, I I I think kind of what I started with is like I care a lot about you. You have a lot of potential I can see you doing these kinds of things. I can see you getting to where you want to go in your career. Sometimes I even start the conversation by asking them. What do you want to do? Where do you want to get go in your career? And that will help me frame up

49:37 which of these things are important because honestly You know, if someone wants to be eventually like a CPO The feedback I'm gonna give to them is very different. than if they're like, Hey, you know, like I don't really want to manage people ever, I just wanna be the best I C I can ever be. Not gonna give them the same feedback.

49:52 And so having that conversation up front also allows them even before I jump into the feedback to give them their perspective of what they want. And then I can tailor the conversation more to what they're looking for. And I think that has really helped as well make sure that I focus on the things that are gonna really matter. During the feedback conversations I also try to frame things as this is how you're being perceived.

50:16 Then You are doing X. Because I think Even though that's hard to hear. Oh, hey, this person doesn't perceive you in the way that you may think.

50:26 Then we can talk about well, how do what are ways that we can change the perception? I also think it's important because sometimes people are like, Well If you say, Hey, like, I don't think you're X and Then they're like, Well, yes, I am. And if you're saying hey, well, this is how other people perceive you, including me

50:42 But maybe this is not what you are intending and you actually say that, you're giving them the benefit of the doubt of like actually what they're be what they want to what they're tr how they're trying to show up. is different than how people are perceiving them. And you can have a better conversation then around Well, what can you do to change that perception?

51:01 You mentioned uh I see product managers and this is a good segue to You're you know, you're a big deal fancy. Chief Product Officer Person. A lot of people listening to this podcast are early career PMs or trying to get into product. Uh I wanna ask a couple of questions along these lines.

51:17 One is about getting into product. So interestingly, you got into product the same way I got into product, which is you used to be an engineer and then you moved into product within a company. Which is one of them. Maybe one of the simplest ways to get into product, potentially. For People that are trying to break into product management.

51:34 What advice do you often give them of how They could go about doing it. I know there's never the silver bullet, but What's your advice? I definitely think doing it within the same company is a lot easier than trying to switch companies and switch jobs at the same time.

51:49 Because when you're in within a company You've already built credibility, hopefully. And if you haven't, then go crush it at your job so you build the credibility. then you can start to raise your hand, interact with the product team, take on projects. And do things that allow you to get some experience.

52:06 And build a relationship with a leader on the product team. who then may be willing to take a chance on you. to put you into a product role even if you don't have the experience. And especially when you're within the same company

52:18 you bring other things to the table. Let's say you're working in customer support. Well, you have a huge amount of knowledge about what are the big problems that people are calling up the support team or opening tickets on the support team for. And that is valuable knowledge. for um being a product manager. You're coming from the sales side, you're coming with a knowledge of how to sell the product, what really resonates, how do you do the objection handling.

52:40 And that can be a valuable uh perspective. If you come from the engineering side. Well you understand how the product is built. And you understand the you know technic nuances of that, well that can also be a valuable way to enter into the product team.

52:53 And that way, even though you don't have the direct product experience, you're still bringing something to the table. Where you are gonna have to get trained on core product management, but you're not gonna be have to be totally trained on the business or the technology. So is the advice. Basically get a job.

53:10 In any function, not necessarily any function, but Join a company However you can, essentially, and then push to try to get into the product team. Yeah. I think join a product adjacent function, which honestly pretty much every function is product adjacent, because what function does product not engage with?

53:27 But as closely product adjacent as possible. And then yeah, find your way way into the product org from there. Ideally there's something within the company. There's like some program, I imagine, that does this sort of thing. Some companies have something structured, some are just kinda ad hoc. There anything in there you just like like Should you talk about this in your interview just like hey, I really love to become product manager someday?

53:48 Do you have anything along those lines that would help me get into that? Or not. Or she do not. Well, it I think it depends. So w for instance, when I um joined LiveRamp, which was my previous company as a software engineer. I actually did say in the interview process, I want to become a product manager, I think. At that point I was still early in my career. I didn't know for sure, but I said that. Now that was a twenty person startup. So it was worth saying it because they didn't really have a product team and I wanted to put it out there that that was something I was interested in growing into.

54:17 If you're joining a five thousand person company. Your hiring manager is probably not going to receive it well if you're like, Hey, I'm Interviewing for product marketing, but really what I want to do is go into product.

54:30 So it just kind of depends on the company and the stage. You have to play that, um you have to play that wisely. But I think once you're in a company then finding a way to make a relationship with the product leader. Or if you're in a startup that is really small and they don't have product management Well then you have the opportunity to take on projects

54:48 for sure that are product management related because no one is doing that work. um really taking initiative to do that so that you can find an inroad into product management. kind of along these lines, you have a really unique perspective on new PMs because you teach product management at Stanford. You've been doing that for a while. I just want to ask

55:07 You work with a lot of people that are new to product, think about getting to product, and then get into product. What do you find her? The things that we new PMs or people getting into product most misunderstand about the role of PM or are most surprised by when they become product managers.

55:22 When we interviewed students as we were designing the class about what they wanted to learn What was most surprising to me was that students would say, Well, can you teach me how to use Figma? Can you teach me the tools that product managers are gonna have to use. And what was surprising me about that was I don't think it's the tools that you need to learn to be successful.

55:44 think what you need to learn to be successful is how to take very ambiguous situations and consistently drive more and more clarity over time. Uh so it was interesting to see this mismatch between what people said they wanted to learn and what I felt they actually needed to learn.

56:03 Now, having taught this class for a few years now, I think talking to students who have then left and become product managers. They've seen a lot of of this in practice now and I think they understand that, but there is this mismatch of people who haven't been in product management saying they want to go and thinking that they need to learn some like tools or process versus the mindset. and the skill required to clarify ambiguity.

56:29 Along those lines actually saw you somewhere in a talk or maybe something you wrote. Talk about how Creating this class and creating the curriculum. helped you crystallize your own thinking on product and helped you crystallize the mental models. of becoming a product manager. Is there anything that you recall from that time of like, here's something that's really helped me?

56:47 understand about this function and the skill. As you're putting together the class. Yeah, I know anytime you're teaching something, you have to figure out a way to synthesize it for another audience. And so many of us have learned product management just figuring out on the job. Um

57:03 I don't know if there's like a particular framework that I would say came out of that, but what I found very interesting was seeing the questions that people asked in the class. And then feeling like, oh, I understand the like I understand how to answer this question. I can provide an example for it. And that was that was super interesting to me because like I didn't expect that coming out of the conversation. Yeah, it's like there's frameworks we we developed to

57:27 talk about ideation and product discovery and all of that, but I think those are fairly flexible frameworks. uh what was was most enlightening was being able to crystallize the answers to some of these questions whether it was about like How do you interact as a PM effectively with engineering? Or how do you Um

57:47 How do you Like what happens if the data shows you? That's the thing. you know, it doesn't matter which direction you put pick, like there's merits to both ways. How do you actually go about making those decisions? It it was very interesting being able to then have those conversations with Sudan.

58:01 and bring in the real life examples. And I found in some situations I actually go back to my own team. And share the the same answer that I came up with in class. I was like, Oh, this is actually a valuable thing to share, share with my team back at my company. Reminds me of the recent chat I had with this guy Alex Komarowski. Where you talked about how oftentimes

58:21 Talking with people helps them uncover new insights that he had in his head. And then he writes them down as soon as he says something that's really clever in any way, he's like, Okay, I'm gonna remember that now. Mm-hmm. Coming back to how to become a PM. So you see all these people getting and taking this class, want to become product managers. I know they're like Stanford students and you know they have

58:39 People will more likely hire Stanford people. But I guess In terms of how they end up becoming PMs, what's if you were to like look at the pie chart of the people that end up getting a PM job? What's like the biggest chunk? Is it they join it some other function and then move into product? Do they just join as a junior PM somewhere like how are people actually getting into the PM role thro in that class Yeah, I think very few are directly going to an established company.

59:05 and becoming a PM directly. So I would say a big chunk of them some of them are, but many of those then had PM experience to begin with or had engineering experience and then went to a technical company into a PM role. the vast majority of them are joining product adjacent roles. Or they're going to small startups where they might be doing product management, might be the first product manager, or they might be doing product management plus plus chief of staff, something like that. where they get to put their hands in product management.

59:33 uh but it's a super small company. So I think those have been the two most successful path to get into product. Awesome. That's a really interesting lens into how people actually get into this role. Potentially final question. But we'll see where it goes. Uh I have this recurring segment on this podcast called AI Corner. Where I try to get a sense of just how people are finding

59:53 AI tools useful in their work and their life. So let me just ask you, is there anything you've Found. Uh useful in some AI tool in how you work, like something you found that helps you work.

1:00:05 More productively, more efficiently, either you or people on your team. One way that we're using AI today is summarizing our user research calls. So That has been really valuable because we're doing all these calls all the time. We're getting a ton of rich insights. Some of those rich insights are related to the specific project that we were doing this call for and some of them aren't. And now we have that summarized and tagged in a way where

1:00:29 We can look up even look up any sort of thing that you want around the calls that we've done and it'll find you the call, it'll find you the contacts, it'll find you the transcript and summarize exactly what we've learned from that that call. So we're starting to use that more and more. It's very powerful. Capability I definitely think that

1:00:48 that kind of summarization of information for PMs is a big unlock for for organizations, and I think we're still in the very, very early days. of AI making a meaningful difference to the way that PMs do their work. Is there a specific tool that you love to help you with that that you may want to Give a shout out to, or is it something you guys built?

1:01:07 Yeah, uh we use dovetail. And it's been Fantastic. connects into all of the zoom calls and everything, does a great job with uh summarization with Search.

1:01:17 Everything. Awesome. Uh I love it when someone recommends a very awesome sponsor of the podcast, Dov Tale is a uh ongoing and excellent sponsor, so I'm really happy to hear that. Amazing. Uh Anika, is there anything else that you thought you wanted to share or that you want to leave listeners with.

1:01:33 That you think might be helpful. Before we get to our very exciting line around. The mindset that you bring to your work Is Actually the most important thing.

1:01:43 Or anything else that you can do. And if you are approaching every situation. As much as possible with a positive mindset, you can do more than you could ever possibly hope to achieve.

1:01:56 I'm gonna pull on this thread'cause this is such a powerful point and I think it's easy to just hear that. It's hard to Learn to do it. Do you have any advice on just like how to build that mindset like uh connects to many of the things you said. How can this be fun? How can I be grateful?

1:02:12 to this person that's annoying me and the things that they might teach me. Is there just anything you you've done that has helped you build this? Mindset. Journaling is very powerful. So actually growing up, I journaled every single day of my life from when I was thirteen to when I was twenty three.

1:02:28 And while I cringe to go back to read any of those. I think what it helped me do and build a practice around that I still do today is when I have a lot of thoughts going through my head, especially negative thoughts. just putting them all down on a piece of paper, writing them on my phone. And trying to explore. Why? Why am I feeling this way? What is why am I getting triggered?

1:02:52 What is it about the situation that's making me feel so strongly? And when I put it down on paper, then it takes this thing that's abstract and things that I'm ruminating on. and actually makes it possible for me to break it down and understand Well, okay, this is Something I may feel

1:03:09 But the why behind it is a little irrational. So I let me let this go. I realize that this is an irrational way to think about this. Whereas other things I start to uncover. Well, what is it about the situation and what is it that I need to do differently? What's within my control And what is it maybe that I need to go of talk to someone about and say, Hey, I need you to do this differently.

1:03:31 Make. myself feel better and make the situation better. It's interesting this is another thread that's been coming up a bunch on the podcast recently that When Something is bothering you or something is hard.

1:03:43 the more you actually listen to that part of yourself and like dive into it and explore it and give it a space to Share and talk. the less power it gets and the more space is created for the stuff you actually want.

1:03:56 To take space. There's like it's count it's It's uh not what you would expect.'Cause usually it's like no shut up. Everything's fine. But the more you actually hear that out, the m easier things get.

1:04:07 So I love that you share that. It's like doing cognitive behavioral therapy on yourself. Yeah. That's how I think of it. I've never actually done cognitive behavioral therapy, but I've read a lot about it and Sometimes when I go through this, I'm like asking myself the same questions that I think are asked in those settings.

1:04:23 Love that. All right. Onica, is there anything else? That you wanted to share or leave listeners with. I think that's that's all I can think of. Well, with that we've reached our very exciting lightning round. Are you ready? I'm ready.

1:04:36 All right. First question. What are two or three books that you've recommended most to other people? The Hard Thing About Hard Things, uh by Ben Horowitz. Such a great book, great again about mindset of how to approach hard things.

1:04:49 Um Second is I'm a huge fantasy sci fi fan, so I love Brandon Sanderson's books. So I highly recommend those to people as well. I uh all I know about him is I saw videos of him after Covid where he just said I wrote like five new books during Covid. I was like, What is going on? He is someone that is at the top of his craft. And I admire people so much that are like truly the elite in what they do. And he is truly the elite in what he does. And he writes a lot about writing, he podcasts a lot about writing. It's pretty impressive. And he writes fantasy books, is that right? He writes fantasy, yep. Okay.

1:05:20 Um She has like a lot of books to read though. She's like God. Sure. Fuck. Okay, great.

1:05:26 Next question. Do you have a favorite recent movie or TV show that you really enjoyed? Again on the fantasy sci-fi track, I really like Fallout, which is a dystopian show based on a post apocalyptic, post nuclear war. Uh world. Yeah. Very entertaining. Yeah, it's just like very uh quirky and fun. Yes.

1:05:46 And unxpected. Awesome. Do you have a favorite product that you've recently discovered that you really love? My eight foot iPhone charger?

1:05:56 So I have a cord that's very long that allows me to move around the house and do stuff while my phone is charging'cause My phone is always running out of batteries. So happily like highly recommend getting a super long charging cord. I've got one of those and I know exactly what you mean. Do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to find useful in work or in life? I think it comes back to dealing with lots of different types of people. I really try to

1:06:23 remind myself that everyone has something to teach and everyone has something to learn. And I think that helps not only Like think about how you interact with other people, but also combat imposter syndrome because you have something to bring to the table and teach. as well as anyone else, no matter what your age is, no matter what your background.

1:06:43 and leaning into that and realizing that people can learn from you. And you can learn from others in every single situation. Final question. I heard that you're a big fan of Isaac Asimov. Uh do you have a favorite As a mob book, one that you'd think if someone were to explore his his uh canon.

1:07:00 They might want to start with. I really like the foundation series. So starting with that is is really good. It's a very different style of writing, so you kind of have to stick with it, but it's good, I promise. Uh and I will build on that and say don't watch the show,'cause the show is so different from the book series. I don't know if you've seen it and nearly as good. Yeah. I was just like, What is going on? This is not the story. What are they doing?

1:07:22 Amazing. Anika. This has been amazing. We covered so much ground. I feel like this is gonna help a lot of people. Two final questions. Where can folks find you online if they wanna follow up on things, maybe ask you questions, or just check out the stuff you're up to? And Uh, how can listeners be useful to you?

1:07:37 Uh, so you you can find me on LinkedIn, follow me, DM me, would love to connect. And the way you can help me is we're actually d redesigning our Stanford class right now for PMs. And I would love to hear from you if you haven't done any P you don't have any PM experience What is it that you wish a class could teach you? And that would be super helpful for me as we're redesigning this class.

1:07:58 Thanks. Amazing. And the way they could share that is DM you on LinkedIn or Twitter. Easy. Amazing. Monica, thank you so much for being here. Thanks for having me.

1:08:09 Absolutely my pleasure. Hi everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at Lenny's Podcast dot com.

1:08:32 See you in the next episode.

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