Transcript

Can Journalism Survive the Collapse of Trust?

0:00 Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast. Designed to help bring those four key stoic virtues: courage, discipline, justice, and wisdom. Into the real world. Hey it's Ryan. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. It it is clear to me that that one of the problems of this moment in time is we are living through a collapse of ethics. Not the law, although the law is certainly struggling.

0:28 But but we are realizing just how much society depends not so much on what someone is legally required to do or not do, but the standards that they hold themselves. Right. Uh our system of government obviously is laws and policies, but there was a number of unwritten norms and rules, things that um men and women of honor would do and

0:50 Would be. Never. And our our whole s society depends on this idea of ethics. What are the responsibilities of a given profession? And this is something I I wrestled with when I was writing right thing.

1:04 Right now. And I talk about this in the do your job chapter. Let me read this little section to you. It says something about the world today that the phrase I was just doing my job is more likely to be an excuse for disturbing behavior. than to be the explanation of heroic behavior. It's a way of letting yourself off the hook when really what a job, what a duty is, is all about what it demands of you from you. The writer Uval Levin, despairing at the decline in so many of our precious institutions, spoke of the need for each of us to force ourselves in little moments of decision to ask the great unasked question of our time.

1:38 Given my role here, how should I behave? he says. That's what people who take an institution they're involved with seriously would ask. As a president or a member of Congress, a teacher or a scientist, a lawyer or a doctor, a pastor or a member, a parent or a neighbor. What should I do here?

1:54 Like what he's talking about here is duty, not what's convenient, not what's easy, not what everyone else is doing, but what we are obligated to do as a result of our potential and talents, as well as the professional roles we have selected for ourselves. In the world. In business they talk of the duty of a fiduciary, meaning that Once one has taken the role of responsibility to a company, to investors, or to the customer, they can't simply do whatever is best for themselves. In a famous case in New York in nineteen twenty eight, Chief Judge Benjamin Cardozo ruled against a partner who had attempted to enrich themselves at the expense of another partner.

2:29 A trustee, he said, is held to something stricter than the morals of the marketplace. Not honesty alone, but the punctilio of an honor the most sensitive. is then the standard of behavior. The level of conduct for fiduciaries has been kept at a higher level The gnat trodden by the crow.

2:48 And again, look, some of these duties like that of a fiduciary are codified by the law. Some are defined and enforced by a strict professional code like that in journalism. Others like the role of a soldier are a combination of both. Unfortunately, most jobs and professions are not so clear. Or worse, the professions have abandoned. Their duty.

3:07 Well that's what I want to talk about in today's episode. I was talking to my friend, the journalist Rick Jervis. He's a correspondent for USA Today. He was the USA Today's Baghdad bureau chief from two thousand five to two thousand seven, covered the trial of Saddam Hussein. He participated in almost two dozen military inbeds. So for for years he's been researching and investigating and reporting on some highly sensitive and politically divisive topics. And and he you came by the painted porch. I I wanted to talk about What he thought of ethics in journalism. And and look. Journalism is filled with

3:41 human beings who make mistakes all the time. I wrote a whole book critical of journalism. So I'm I'm not sort of acting like these people are saints or that they always live up to their standards. But the but there are standards and the point even that we are disappointed in the journalism profession has a lot to do with our understanding of what those standards are and how high They are. So um I talked to Rick about this. We had a larger discussion about immigration, which I'll link to in the show notes because that was another episode. I obviously I talk about this more at length in Right Thing Right Now. I have a whole chapter on being your own referee, which is related to this. But when the Stoics talk about justice, this is what they mean. Who are you? What standards do you hold yourself to? How do you Fight to be the person, as Mark's really said, that philosophy wants you to be, but also how do you fight to be the person that your profession wants you to be? Doctor, lawyer, scientist, teacher, politician.

4:32 neighbor citizen, mother, father, whatever it is. If you've never heard of Rick's work, he has an amazing book of narrative nonfiction called The Devil Behind the Badge, which is this great book about a serial murderer in Laredo. Turns out to be a U.S. Border Patrol agent carry out the painted port. You can follow him on Instagram, R Jervis5905. And uh I do hope this episode inspires you to take a a look at some of the rules you're living by. If we want to stay true to our virtues, we we gotta back them up. With action, we gotta do our job. Talk soon. I know I got a bunch of talks coming up, I got a bunch of travel coming up, I got a bunch of videos I'm gonna do. So I was I was starting to think about what I'm gonna wear.

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7:46 You know, trying to shed light on as much of this stuff as possible. Trying to do it as dispassionately as as possible, trying to retain readers' trust. And sort of credibility. Trying to show all sides to it. But really also putting faces on some of these issues, you know. We wrote a story recently where we were down to So Laredo to interview some of the families who were

8:09 who were like previously detained, who have been released, and trying to get their stories about what's it like being a sort of detained family and all of this. I think all we can do is just keep Keep putting you know, faces to these stories.

8:23 Um and Trying to tell the stories of people who have been victimized in all of this. Yeah, it's like when you're sort of depressed about what's happening in the world, or you feel powerless about what's happening in the world. I do think there's something Both

8:39 Consoling and then also kind of like powerful about like doing your job. Whatever that job is. Like how do I how do I go do My little piece of this to the best of my ability. Uh you can't control everything, but I can control whether I'm sort of using my

8:57 my skills for good. And it feels overwhelming at times, to be honest. You know, there's so much there's there's so much out there that so much going on. It changes week to week. You know, like we think we gotta be on what on what's happening this week and next week something brand new. Pops up. But I think that's what we try to do is just focus on our jobs and just try to focus on telling these stories as as as kind of plainly as we can. I think some people wanna see

9:26 journalism be more sort of not engaged, but want to see it take more of an advocacy role. And there's something There's something interesting there because it's like if one side or one group of powers uh one one group of people is acting with impunity or sort of breaking the rules or violating the norms, there's this temptation to like, well, I gotta

9:49 Fight back. that way. Do you find either with the reporters you work with or even in your own, you gotta go, no, no, no, what are the basic principles of my profession? What are the what are the sort of my standards in ethics? And and in a way those become even more important. Because the general lawlessness elsewhere.

10:08 You kinda gotta go w I can't get sucked into that. I think there's a place for Advocacy journalism. Sure. You know, I love the the sort of opinion pages of like different of different newspapers and I love reading um columnists and their takes on things. I th I th think it's important. I think that they fill this sort of contextual gap that that sometimes needs to be filled. But me, like sort of myself and other reporters that I know, I think we we basically tend to fall back on trying to stay as uh as objective as possible. Yeah. I think it's important. Uh I think the number one reason is because you have to retain reader confidence and

10:48 And if a reader, even a reader who may actually agree with your stands, like if they start reading you, like interjecting some of your own opinion into some of your coverage, they they might not follow you as much and they they might not have as much confidence. in what you write. But I also think it just makes a better story. I I think it's a better story like if you show these different competing sides. I I think it's a better story like if you find somebody that that doesn't fit the mold of of what you think he or she is. I just think it's better it's better storytelling, like if you could sit back and take yourself out of it and just show who these people are. And w and what's actually happening. I I give this talk this weekend in in San Diego and I

11:30 I'm quoting this passage from from James Stockdale and he's talking about how You know. Integrity can seem hard, integrity can seem expensive, it can seem sort of inadequate, but he was like It's actually there for you. Like like a sense of right and wrong, or these are the rules of my profession, or these are this is like this is how we do things.

11:50 is actually really important when Like when you're drowning, not literally, but like when When everything is kind of spinning really fast. And a lot's happening. And people are doing awful things. Like it's actually then that you need those rules because like you get yourself into trouble if

12:09 Anything goes. Right, because now you're tempted to Maybe Cut this corner or do this th like expediency is bad for For you and them. That's interesting. And that like it's kind of in these moments that like

12:23 Hey, like You know, doctors have these basic things, right? Or lawyers. These are their basic thing. Like because let's say you go to the lawyer, it's like hey, everyone's entitled to a an attorney, right? That's really helpful because like you might have this visceral reaction of like I don't want to work for that person, but no the basic of my the basis of my profession is this. That kind of helps you settle down. And

12:47 follow something other than your immediate emotions in the moment. I just wonder if you relate to that. There is something comforting to fall back on what I know on these kind of um Pre detetermin.

13:00 You know. rules and steps that I take in trying to report out a story. Yeah. And sticking to that. I there There is something with with all the chaos happening around you, like there's chaos swirling everywhere. And I I I I feel like I could just step back and be like, Okay, I I know what to do here. I I I wanna interview this person. I wanna get all sides to to like the story. and try to find like the ICE agent that may be out there, you know, struggling with with um with sort of some of the stuff or

13:30 You know, um, they told me now I gotta go check that back. Even if I want it to be true, I have to go see if it's true. Correct. And there's something comforting about that. Like it's it's kind of like stability. within all of this chaos is is is knowing that You know I've been in the business twenty five years now. So I I kinda had these set rules and things that I do that I know how to do. And there's something comforting about just going after it and trying to do it, you know, as dispassionately and best as I can.

14:00 Passionate is a word I think uh In a society that is built around passion. Dispassionate feels like a bad thing. But You almost need the dispassion if you're really passionate about what you do.

14:14 That's right. That's absolutely right. You know, and it's not always easy, you know, like reporters have opinions, they have they they basically see things and they have feelings and thoughts and like emotions just like anybody else. But I think it's really important. I I I think it's increasingly important to have the I worked in Baghdad for for over two years. I was I was like the Baghdad bureau chief for like USA Today. And one of the stories that I did when I was out there is that I interviewed a a like insurgent, a Sunni insurgent, and I got him through a a translator that I knew and We set up this like meeting with us, and this is a guy who was placing roadside bombs like on the side of the highway, blowing up US troops, you know. It's somebody that I'm very much against. Ideologically, you know, on every level. Like I was totally against them. But I was fascinated by what made him tick. Right. And that's the part that that really drove me. I'm like, yes, of course, I'm I'm I'm a hundred and ten percent against everything this guy does.

15:12 But I really want to learn why he does it, right? Right. And so that's the same thing that I bring here, right? And so like I'm I'm I'm passionate about learning all sides of this story. And If I could overlook like my own prejudices. for interviewing a Sunni insurgent in Baghdad. I think it could overlook everything which is happening here, so I mean, you were talking about chaos, one of the

15:33 sort of chaoses or stressors that would be operating on you right now, is that like your profession is under attack, right? They're attacked in the the sense the public trusts it increasingly less. But also I mean Reporters are getting arrested. There's uh that Washington Post reporter whose house was searched. There's that increasing like just sort of open antagonism, like whether we're talking press briefings or you know, tweets from administration officials.

16:02 That is new. It's like they're sort of saying the quiet part out loud in a way that they weren't um How do you feel about that? I mean it doesn't feel great, you know, you you d Definitely feel like you're under attack kinda constantly. I've gotten really snippy emails from from sort of White House officials who

16:20 Don't agree with with things that I've written. But I've also gotten a lot of feedback from people who read my stories who who thank me for it, um, people that I I I I meet later who said that uh was really insightful and brought a lot of insight and knowledge to them. So I think this is a crazy time and crazy things are happening, but I think, you know Really good journalism now is needed more like today than it has been in in like a long time. So sure.

16:49 D you feel like uh That is the role of journalism, which is to put a face to what's happening or to shine a light on what's happening in a way that Like that wouldn't happen otherwise. Is that the idea for you? Like is that what you feel like you're basically. Yeah. You want to shine a light on what's happening. And let you know

17:08 readers, politicians, uh leaders figure out what to to do with that information and like how to use that information. But really just putting it out there because people need to know. You know, people need to know that they're going in without warrants and bussing into uh people's houses. They need to know that they're shipping immigrants two or three states away. Two or three countries away. Sometimes you know, to sort of avoid court orders that that are basically telling them to sort of release these immigrants.

17:37 Think if you don't write about that, people don't know. So you have to shine a light and let other people figure out what to do with that information. One of the things about like doing your job, I I don't mean your job, I just mean where you go, like, hey, look, this is my role in this larger ecosystem, is that there you have to have a certain amount of humility in the sense that like It would be wonderful. if we lived in a world where like you write a story about a detention center that's overcrowded and there's abuses and and then like the public just rises up in outrage and it immediately goes away.

18:08 But that's not the world we live in. How do you deal with the acceptance that like you can only carry the ball so far? Yeah, that's a tough part of the job, you know, that's a tough part, you know, sometimes and I had these I had these uh conversations with other journalists, with with other writers. that you could write like the most damning story about something that's happening and doesn't seem to move the

18:31 The actual needle much at all. And that's a frustrating part. Like you would love to see it lead to mass demonstrations and changes in policy. But sometimes it does. Yeah. You know, sometimes it does. So Or it could play a small part in I think we all ha want the movie version of whatever like it's like You're the lawyer who takes the case which you know breaks up the trusts. Or you know, you you write the expose which leads to the the politician resigning, or you have the invention which cures cancer, and it's like Actually, no, you're probably gonna be an academic who toils away for their entire career making a tiny contribution, which is picked up by someone else who makes a tiny contribution who a hundred years from now we finally make A twenty percent difference in cancer mortality.

19:19 You're not the decisive blow. Almost certainly you are not the decisive blow. And like you have to go into it. Not expecting that. Like you have to go into I'm sure there's like a Marcus Areles quote on this. Yeah. But you have to go into it not expecting or not wanting it to to spark massive change. Or it'll break your heart, right? 'Cause it it won't happen. Right. Yeah. You have to go into it just the the sort of story does the sort of end to itself. And you just just have to write the story, focus on that, make it as as I get as possible. And then see what happens. Yeah. No, I mean that's the the Stoics talk about that a lot.

19:57 And I think this is true even it's like you write a great book. It's like lots of people could read it. Very few people can read like you don't control so much of it. So you have to take the majority of the satisfaction and the pride and have to understand your contribution was to do this part that was up to you. And not Have the expectation Or be sitting around in anticipation of a certain outcome because

20:19 It might or might not happen. And and honestly a better way to measure a life and a career is Over Hey You know, you covered this issue for twenty years, and that moved the freighter a tiny bit, not this person

20:34 broke the watergate story and American history was never the same or whatever. I'm somewhat comforted that um fifty, a hundred years from now, when people might go back to to this era and like study it. That I had left this kind of paper trail that people could could actually read, Oh, this is what was happening now. This is what was happening. I think it's important. I uh at least it's comforting to to know that you're a part of the historic record on all of this stuff happening. It's interesting thing to think about. It's like Is anyone who's gone back and done research, you go to the library and you look at the microfilm or you know, you you can You can look at old articles, it's like this was somebody's life. Like they thought this was a super important story. And like

21:16 You're the only one that's looked at in forty years or a hundred years. But like, no, this person was like Sorry, I can't come to dinner tonight. I'm working on this big story. And it's like it was like totally forgotten. But actually It's not totally forgotten'cause here you all are all these years later, and it might make up one sentence in a book, but like that's There's probably a metaphor there for just like a human life. Like we're just all these like little building blocks and this larger thing that we call Humanity or society. And you want to be in there because you wrote a good story, not you're in there'cause you did something bad and someone's writing about you. Right. Like are you a positive contribution in that way or a negative contribution in that way? That's that's all the individual can do.

21:58 Yeah. It's comforting. It's comforting and humbling at the same time, I think. That's the the tension of it.