AI is critical for humanity’s survival: Cisco president on the AI revolution | Jeetu Patel

0:00 Survival of humanity depends on a successful AI. Birth rates are going down. If you have sixty percent of your population where you don't have enough people to take care of them, that could cause a lot of human suffering. When I got this new job, there's zero chance I would have been able to do it if AI wasn't there. Because I didn't know anything about so many domains that we were in. A lot of companies are trying to adjust to This new world. You have to know the difference between a mega trend and hype cycle. When there's a mega trend, don't fight it. AI is a mega trend. One of the most foundational movements that we have seen in human industry. This is very difficult to do. AI is moving so fast, one of the things that's on my team is fast for Forward six months from now. Get prepared for that world. You manage thirty thousand people. Every management book that you read will tell you praise in public, criticize in private. I fundamentally disagree with that notion. What you have to do is establish enough trust among the team so that you are comfortable critiquing and debating. In public, but something that you wish you'd known before taking on this role stamina trumps інтелект's very important to have smart people, but you can become smart if you have curiosity and hunger, and staying power and persistence. You can't teach hunger. Today, my guest is GTPel, chief product officer and president at Sisco.

1:20 Cisco is not a brand that mostly people think about when they think about AI. But not only are they a massive part of the AI infrastructure build out that is happening right now all over the world, what G2 has achieved internally at Cisco in terms of transforming their culture and waves of working to be AI first is something that most big company leaders only dream about. Gijo is also an incredible human with so much warmth and wisdom to share, I am very excited to be sharing his story. Don't forget to check out Lenny'sProductPass.com for an incredible set of deals available exclusively to Lenny's newsletter subscribers. Let's get into it after a short word from our wonderful sponsors. Applications break in all kinds of ways, crashes, slowdowns, regressions, and the stuff that you only see once real users show up. Sentry catches it all.

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4:11 Check it out at framer dot com slash Lenny. Rules and restrictions may apply. GT, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the podcast. I'm excited. Good to see you. The timing of this conversation is so amazing. You're just coming off running the most

4:29 insane assembling of AI thought leaders and tech leaders I've ever seen. Let me just read a few of the names that you guys had at the summit that just happened a couple of days ago. Uh, you had Jensen, you had Sam, and you had Mark Andreessen. Yeah. Fay Fay.

4:42 Yeah, the C of Intel, AWS. Uh Mike Krieger, Kevin Wheel. Like that's just like a third of the guests you guys had. I don't I don't know how you did this. Um, but it feels like you have this fire hose of information. coming at you, you interviewed a lot of these people on stage.

4:57 And so while it's fresh in your mind. I wanna do it. After doing the summit, after hearing from these folks What's something that you've changed your mind about? Or what's just like an insight that has been lodged in your head ever since doing the summit?

5:13 It was an amazing thing to pull off because I I we never thought we'd be able to do it and we were really worried going into it. Thinking. Well We're trying to do fireside chats for twelve hours.

5:26 And there's a capacity of human absorption. that we're trying to challenge. And so we tried to But a lot of breaks in there. We started at nine A. M and we ended at nine PM. And we had a couple hour break in the middle.

5:38 But Everyone stayed. And Um, and everyone was engaged and we could have gone until eleven and it would have been fine. And it's because the quality of the conversations and the caliber of the guests that were there. Made.

5:51 A world of the difference. Um What was the Take away from it. I'd say a few things. One is

5:59 Yeah, the capabilities overhang is real. I think there's more functionality we On one end there's kind of this paradox of progress. On one end we are like, you know, we're solving all these amazing problems with science. On the other end, you talk to the enterprises, they're like we're struggling with adoption. And I feel like there's a There's help that's gonna be needed within organizations and the reason I We we pulled this thing together.

6:21 The goal was What is happening in the industry and how can we help customers make sure that they can make the most of it? Because we are in one of the most foundational movements that we have seen in human industry. And uh it's We we we gotta make sure that we make the most of it. So that was one is the capabilities overhang is real. The second area Is

6:40 I'd say that it's harder When you go beyond some of the most more obvious Use cases. Like for example, coding is a very, very good use case that you know, you're starting to get a lot of success in I mean, we just had our first product that we think we'll be in the next two weeks.

6:55 One hundred percent written with With AI. Right. I don't think that's as easy when you go into every other function of the business. And that was actually very apparent that he hey, this is this is gonna require some nuance and um understanding of how every business works.

7:10 And then the third one which is the A really interesting takeaway and Mark Andresen talked about this in your podcast a few days ago. In fact, when I talked to him I actually started with your podcast because it was so interesting. And then we dug into it a little bit more, but like and then you know, Kevin Scott was was also talking about this, but

7:27 This notion of the fact that Birth rates are going down and we have a demographic shift that's happening in the world and there's gonna be more people that are in the older age bracket than the than younger age bracket. And those older people are gonna need folks to take care of them. And historically in society that's actually always been the case, but we might be at a point where that might not be the case. And when that's not the case, You know, we worry about AI taking our jobs.

7:52 I think that survival of humanity depends on a successful AI. Because That's At some at some point if you have oh you know, sixty percent of your population that's in a in a demographic where you don't have enough people to take care of them, like that that could cause a lot of human suffering. So I don't think people talk about this enough, and that's something that

8:10 We have to take a moment and digest it. This is so important for our collective success. Um moving forward. Something I was gonna say during that uh my chat with Mark and when he talked about that AI is basically coming just in time. To save us. Because there aren't gonna be enough people to do the jobs that was

8:26 In my head I was thinking this is like another Uh signal that we are in a simulation. That things are working out just right for us. What are the chances? The older I get, the more I believe that we are actually in a simulation. You know, I the first time I heard that concept Um I thought it was such an absurd concept. Now I'm like, you know, this is might actually be happening.

8:46 Following the thread, a lot of companies are trying to Adjust to this new world. You are doing an incredible job at actually doing this. We got connected through Kevin Wheel, who is former CPO at OpenAI, now head of science at OpenAI. And the way he described it is the work that you have done to turns the way he described it from an older

9:08 Slower, more traditional. uh enterprise to a very AI forward company. Uh how many employees do you guys have? You said forty five thousand. We have ninety thousand employees, forty three thousand watch the stream. So the big question for you is like this is it feels like it's really working. And this is very difficult to do at a company of that scale.

9:24 A lot of Leaders are trying to make It works. What are Two or three things that you've done that you think have been most impactful and

9:32 effective in helping Cisco lean into AI, not be scared of it, not and actually, you know, embrace the future. You know, i innovation in my mind is a choice. So like you know, I I always find it interesting when people say, Well, you know, you're a large company, you can't innovate, you're a small company, you can innovate. It's like no, it's it's just a choice. Every day you come into work. And you can choose to be

9:53 Thinking about being creative? Well you can choose to not be creative. It's it's like a little binary it's a binary choice you can make every hour. Right. Every minute of every day.

10:04 And so we made that choice that says Cisco is gonna be not just an iconic company and not you know chalk Robbins, our CEO says this. Very eloquently. I want Cisco not just to be an iconic company. I want to score.

10:17 An iconic And innovative company. And so we gotta make sure that we are actually Innovating with the set of constraints

10:28 That we are dealt with. You know, like every company has their own set of constraints. And we have our own set of constraints and we have to make sure that given those constraints we have to actually innovate really well. Now What has what are the two or three things that have happened that have really helped us out? One was

10:45 Um being very clear on what is up for debate and what is not up for debate. Because w what can end up happening is you can always have a pocket veto in a large company. Where if you ask enough number of people, people say no. If you're a large company, you ask enough number of people Someone's gonna say no. Right.

11:02 And so when you have conviction about something that's happening That is gonna be A bet that you need to place you know what What most people think in large companies is large companies don't experiment. That is in fact not true. Large companies experiment a lot.

11:17 What large companies don't do is when an experiment works They don't go all in. And double down. They try to keep hedging. We didn't hedge on AI. We're we said we're gonna go all in.

11:29 That was number one. What that meant Was We had to get people to understand that there Personal success.

11:38 And the success of the company are very aligned. In us getting dexterous with the use of AI. That means that if they feel Like For some reason AI is gonna take their job or AI is gonna be negative for them.

11:54 We have to reassure them that that was not the case, but the reverse was guaranteed to be the case that if you didn't use AI, if you weren't gonna be dextress, In whatever jaw function you're doing. Then your job is probably not gonna be that relevant over here in the long run. So that was the first thing that we did was that that was a I'm not a big fan of top down. Um

12:14 hierarchy of going out and doing things. In fact, I deep down inside I don't respect hierarchy as much. I feel like it It can constrain you at times. But I wanted to make sure on this one we were very, very deliberate.

12:26 The entire company is on the same page. We are an AI first company. Right. And this happened We were

12:34 kind of working towards it even prior to Chad GPT, but Chad GPT became that seminal moment. In uh November twenty two that we actually did that. So that was one. Number two. was we had to make sure that we defined What success look like. The way that individual success was defined was everyone wanted to be a GM at Cisco.

12:55 They wanted to own their own fiefdom. Be a general manager. 'Cause they felt like in order for me to move up the ranks. I need to be a general manager. Which means I need to have my own sales team, I need to have my own marketing team, I need to have my own product team, I need to have my own engineering team, I'm gonna make sure I run my own silo.

13:11 And if you're a forty billion dollar business in product revenues, forty five billion, whatever, um Um we were at the time. Um And And then all of a sudden your goal is That you're gonna just run a bunch of forty million dollar businesses and break it up into a series of forty million dollar businesses.

13:28 That's actually not a good thing for the company. So so the thing we did was we said we have to become not a holding company of two hundred and fifty one acquisitions and thousands of different products. We have to become A platform company. And the characteristic of the platform is you have to be tightly integrated.

13:44 Where the customer feels the same emotion No matter what product of ours they use. Right. There's the same set of expectations that can be served. Reliability. Trust. Elegance and design.

13:57 um solving a problem in the most efficient way. Those are the things we have we want to strive to do. But you don't have to buy everything all at once. Because we also want to be realistic about the fact that not every customer only uses Cisco top to bottom. There's a there's an ecosystem. So Loosely coupled.

14:14 But tightly integrated. You don't have to buy everything all at once, but boy when you do buy two things together They work like magic. So that was the second big thing we did. And then the third one we did. was we said let's

14:26 Make sure that we have a mental model shift. in the company and we did this about five, five and a half years ago. Wh when I first joined this was a very deliberate decision, which was We cannot Operate in a walled garden.

14:40 We have to make sure that we operate in an open ecosystem, which means we have to be completely comfortable. With having a competitor That we're gonna partner with. And that's okay. You know, we don't have to think about this in a zero sum manner. W in order for me to win, someone has to lose.

14:58 We can partner. Because if we if a customer has made a choice of going with Company A and company B. And we happen to be one of those two companies. We owe it to the customer to invest in their success in that other company. Because if the customer succeeds

15:13 that success has a flow through rate to you. That's gonna be pretty high. And so that's what we did. And that I think that's been Those principles of building great products. But making sure that operates like a platform.

15:26 Mm. having an open ecosystem. I think has been kind of central and then not being confused about the fact that we'll be AI first from the top down. I wanna take a tangent and make sure people understand what Cisco even does these days.

15:39 I think as a a lay person you'll think about Cisco and you're like okay the uh Webex, yes. They make maybe some Routers. You guys are Key to this

15:50 massive AI infrastructure build out that's happening right now. You're a major player in this. I don't think people realize this, people listening to this podcast. Give us just like a quick glimpse into how Cisco fits into this massive build out and just like what is Cisco these days. Cisco is a critical infrastructure company for the AI era. What does that mean? If you think about where the constraints are right now, if you think that AI is gonna be one of the biggest movements, and then you ask yourself the question, what

16:16 Could hold AI back. There's three things where we feel like we can have a direct impact that can hold AR back. Number one is there's an infrastructure constraint. There's just not enough power, compute, and network bandwidth in the world to go out and satiate the needs of AI. Number two. is there's a trust deficit. If people don't trust these systems, they're not gonna use them.

16:38 And right now there's a lot of mistrust in these systems. You know. Hallucination is a feature when you're writing poetry, but when you're trying to go out and run predictable systems. A hallucination can be a bad thing. And these models are unpredictable. They're non deterministic.

16:53 And so they have to make sure that they have safety and security kind of factored into them. And then the third area is a data gap. Like so far we've trained these models With You know um human generated data publicly available on the Internet, but we are running out of human generated data publicly available on the Internet to train the models.

17:10 And every company is gonna differentiate based on their own proprietary enterprise data. being used to train the models, synthetic data and machine data, which is where the most amount of growth is. And the third category of machine data we can play a massive role in. Let's just go.

17:26 So What does Cisco do then? If you think about a GPU, which is what everyone now has is very clear because of the great job that Jensen has done. But here is what a GPU's core contribution is to AI.

17:41 If these GPUs aren't networked together. You don't have AI. Because it used to be that you could train a model on a single GPU, but then what happened was the model got too big to be put on a single GPU. So then you had a server. with eight GPUs that got connected together, so you could train a model with eight GPUs. But then That wasn't good enough. So then what happened was you said I'm gonna have a rack of servers.

18:03 That I'm gonna network together. That at some point wasn't big enough. And so then they said I'm gonna have a cluster of racks that are connected together. And those that connect it together is the operative word. That's what we end up doing. Is

18:19 NVIDIA makes the GPUs and we connect those GPUs together. AMD makes the GPUs, we connect them together, and now what's happened, Nunny, is You have these data centers. That might be hundreds of kilometers apart. that need to operate like one coherent cluster, which means that they're completely in sync. Every GPU is in sync with each other. when you're dr doing a training run, and that requires a very sophisticated set of technologies that we build.

18:45 To make sure that you could have two data centers eight hundred kilometers apart, but boy, they run like Completely in sync with each other. And that's what Cisco does. We provide the networking, we provide the optics technology. We provide the safety and security technology, we provide the observability. You provide um, you know, uh the um

19:04 Uh, the data platform, all of those things together For making sure that we provide critical infrastructure for the AI era. So being on the inside of this massive investment that is happening across the world. What do you think isn't being priced in into where things are heading into how much life will change.

19:22 Or just like the scale of this. Have this build out. Years ago I'd had a chance to meet with Ray Gerswell. Um you know, as a chief. Scientist at Google for a while and I think he still is.

19:33 And he had talked about he was writing this book called um Live long enough to live forever. And so I was talking to him, I'm like, what is the impact to human population if all of a sudden you can have Fifteen generations living simultaneously because we have an indefinite span of life. Because now all of a sudden

19:50 You know, everything has to change. Like how does housing work housing work? How does agriculture work? How does transportation work? How does Uh everything changes. And he looked at me and he he had the most profound answer and he said, You know, most people can't think exponentially. Because they always think exponentially maybe on a single dimension. But what ends up happening In these things is you can sometimes

20:16 You have to keep in mind that Exponentiality happens across multiple dimensions all at once. So if you do have An indefinite span of life. You have to assume that humans are creative enough. That they're gonna find a way to have

20:31 Um Three day crop cycle. And they probably will have five thousand story. You know Skyscrapers.

20:38 And There will be a bunch of things in society that we have assumed are not solvable that'll now be solvable. So when you go back to your question and say, What What changes in this entire equation that has not been factored in well.

20:53 I think today AI is looked at largely as a productivity tool and an aggregation mechanism. I have data. All over and I'm gonna be able to make sure that the language can be Use to compose the data in a way that I can give you, Lenny, the questi answer to the question that you're looking for.

21:11 That I think is like the point zero zero zero zero one percent of the tip of the iceberg. Right. The reality is is We will have original insights generated

21:24 that don't exist in the human corpus of knowledge. And we will have the physical world. Get augmented. To language. Where

21:34 capacity is augmented. To humans. And what we have to be careful of is that that capacity is working on behalf of humans. But if the capacity is augmented to humans, you can now do things That you really care to do.

21:51 And not do things that you don't care to do. And so like our biggest realization that we had when we were using codec, for example. We were writing, you know, code with um Open AI is you know, kinda model and development to

22:05 Was the first three months we were screwing around with this And then there was this light bulb that runoffs. In fact, there was a forward deployed engineer from OpenAI that told us about this. She's okay. Stop.

22:18 Trying to Think of this as a tool. Think of this as a teammate that got added to your team. And your framing will change. And the way in which you actually use the technology will change.

22:33 And that That essentially if you compound that to how society operates. That's gonna be pretty profound. As an implication. While keeping in mind that these safety and security risks are non trivial.

22:47 And they're real. And you can't be, you know, completely flippant about them. Because How An AI

22:55 Identifies its own success and its own ambition will really matter, and we have to make sure that we actually keep guardrails around that. Because it is in service of humans. It is not To go out and Build a society by itself.

23:11 And I do think that that th those are important kind of Checks that you have ch checks and balances you have to keep in mind? But the thing that people sometimes Miss out on this very polarized narrative which is we are either gonna have nothing to do in society or this is gonna be completely useless as a piece of technology.

23:28 I think that's not a helpful narrative. In fact, what is helpful is saying As we reconstruct society for the next phase. How can we make sure that life gets infinitely better? How can we make sure that diseases get solved? How can we make sure that poverty gets er eradicated? How can we make sure that

23:46 How people learn and find excitement and joy out of life gets compounded meaningfully. If that happens I think there's goodness that comes out of this. A line that I often think about is Elon has had this Uh thought that the best case scenario with AI'cause he was a very like AI doomer

24:02 Uh for a long time. Uh, and I and think the reason he got leaned into AI is like I need to help steer this in a direction that isn't gonna harm the world. Uh, the way he described it is the best case scenario for humanity is where the house cat Yeah, it's just like okay, nice just Just keep sitting here with me and I'll take care of you.

24:19 But he but by the way, the thing the things that he is doing right now are nothing short of extraordinary. And you know, for all the critique that one can have like the the the level of kind of deep thinking that's going on with his company. It's it's just crazy. So as you've been

24:37 uh thinking about where things are heading. I I s I've been liking to ask this question. With For people with kids. Is there anything you're Kind of

24:46 Shifting in how you raise your Your daughter. keeping in mind where things are heading and like are there skills you're trying to instill in her values you're trying to instill in her that Help her will help her thrive in this future. We made a choice and I didn't know how that choice was gonna go. That was actually not even an active choice. It was a passive choice. Frankly

25:02 Even might have been slightly. Intellectually lazy. And the way that we did it. But it actually worked out pretty well. In the sense that we didn't really deprive her of the use of technology. I guess it's a school of thought that says keep technology away from the kids for a while.

25:18 We didn't do that. And frankly, I didn't know how it was gonna work out. Because There are things about the way that the generation

25:28 is and by the way, all of us, not just a new generation, but this kind of constantly being glued to your phone all the time and not being able to actually put that down and have a conversation. Um You know, w is i I think it's an important skill in humans to have and preserve over time. And in fact, as AI does more for us. We should

25:50 be able to have more of this time where I don't have to worry about every notification that's coming on my phone a every minute of the day because maybe I can be more present in the moment that I'm in. She just turned Fifteen and the night before she was turning fifteen. What I realized is She is so emotionally

26:08 Mature. We were sitting down one night and she's like, Hey Dad, just so you know Um I feel really good right now about having a very strong value system.

26:21 I'm like, Oh, okay. What does that mean? And I hope. Say more. And she's like

26:26 Well Can you name five things that you feel so convicted about? That if the entire world Disagree with you. This isn't

26:35 The day before she's turning fifteen, okay. The entire world disagreed with you. You would still feel like you were right on that and that would not waver you. She's like, I have a certain core set of things that I believe in. Where

26:49 I am completely confident. That it's Everyone disagreed with me. I'm still good. Now, by the way, I have to kinda coach her on the Hey, when you get new data, be open minded.

27:00 Changing your mind. But it was actually a very interesting dynamic, which is S You know, if we can have them be exposed to technology but have the right value system, you might actually have the best of both worlds. And um

27:16 And you know, it's the day ain't over yet. She's fifteen. There's a lot of you know chances for her getting influenced by uh external factors and all of that. But what you have to do is make sure that you instill the right values, but then also expose them to the reality of what the world is today. Uh and not completely insulate them from that. And so I I

27:35 The way that it worked out. It did end up and end up working well. And um We were lucky isn't for no Credit to us.

27:43 She was She was able to use technology to get her EQ higher and higher. And uh we were lucky on that front. And we know it can go sideways the other way too, but I do feel like right now At least for my one daughter, what we try to do is get her

27:59 expose to the technology, but make sure that we focus a lot more on the values that we need to have that govern us on a day to day basis. Yeah, kindness. You know, not being arrogant. Hard work. Work ethic.

28:12 Those things matter and I don't think those are timeless in my mind. I don't think those change because You know. Take risks, be creative, that kind of stuff. GT, these are

28:21 Parenting goals as I hear this. I have a two and a half year old mission. Sounds like you've you've done an e amazing job raising your daughter. I would take zero credit for it, I think. Um I I think She deserves a lot of credit for growing up to be who she's become, you know.

28:35 And her mother. Okay. Gotta Gotta share that month. Yeah. Uh what's interesting is that uh I know anthropic is really big, like this idea of values and just like How you operate.

28:45 Anthropic has this constitution they released of how The values essentially of Claude. And it's so interesting how much of similarity there is to how to raise a Great. person and to how to steer an AI.

28:57 Correct. That's right. And it and by the way, it's um Some of your beliefs and your system around you might change.

29:06 But values tend to be pretty long lasting. And culture in a company tends to be pretty long lasting, like you know, when we Um Ben Horowitz talks about this very eloquently. The culture is just a set of norms that a company actually it's not It's not a set of beliefs, it's a set of behaviors that you exude within the company. And it's it's it's actually very, very true because

29:25 When things aren't going right, how do people behave? to go solve problems and come together. Um and that actually exforms your cultural norms. And I think those cultural norms are It's very important to be intentional about it. And as you have more automation in the world.

29:41 Being intentional not just with humans, but also with machines and what you want to do to create the guardrails, I think is pretty important. I'm gonna take us in a a different direction. I talked to Aaron Levy, your former Boss at box. Dear dear folks. Yeah. And friend.

29:57 Uh so I asked him just what should I ask you about what's something that Uh he he learned from you that I've stuck with him ever since working with you. Any uh Share this concept of the right to win. Which he says

30:08 has informed the way he thinks about strategy ever since. Talk about what this is and how folks might use this when they're thinking about Product strategy, company strategy. One of the things that we would always talk about Is

30:22 In the areas that we're gonna participate. Do we have permission to play? Every company You know, has to make sure that the way in which they provide Points of insertion and logical entry into a market.

30:37 Is A lot of times dependent on Do you have the permission to play in that market? Do you have an avenue to get to your to have a route to market to be able to take that product. Just by building a product that is amazing and

30:53 in some area you you don't end up actually getting it to mass scale distribution. And so one of the things that we would always do is ask ourselves a question. We're building this new category or we're building this new capability. Is it gonna be logical for people? That

31:10 Box built it. versus another company building it. Yeah, is it'cause it's gonna be logical for people that Cisco built it versus another company building it. So that's this notion of permission to play, the right to win. Do we have a right to win in that area because we have permission to play? And do we have the route to market?

31:27 To be able to take that product. And get it to mass scale distribution. And if you can do those things. Right, then actually your dollars that you expend on building product actually have an outsize return.

31:41 If not, then you can actually spend a Spend end up spending a lot of money on product. Where the product people think ah these sales guys don't get it, they don't know how to sell it. Especially in enterprise software and the uh Salespeople think these product guys don't get it. They don't know how to build it.

31:56 And so I think in order to stop that, what you have to do is you have to actually use your scale is an advantage and you have to use the areas where you've got the ability to have permission to play where people feel like this is very logical for a company like Sisko like When we say we are gonna network the GPUs And make sure that we actually have a trusted system in AI.

32:21 That is not far fetched for someone to go out and think about because it's a very natural thing for us to do because for the past forty years. We've been doing it for The rest of the infrastructure that was not AI. And so that's not a far cry to say, Okay, we'll now do it for AI.

32:35 You know? And I think that was an area that Aaron and I spent um a fair and by the way You know, I'm glad that he he could took that out of me. There's so much I've learned from him. The

32:46 Biggest area I've learned from him is You never give up and persistence Beats intellect. And stamina beats intellect any day of the week twice on Sunday and that That guy is as smart as they come.

32:58 But that is not the why that's not the biggest reason he's successful. He's the biggest reason he's successful is he has an enormous amount of In the game. Yeah, going back to my daughter's comment of no matter what what everyone else says, his convictions and belief He will actually stick by them and actually get through um the hardest times.

33:17 I totally believe that. I I feel like I'm not the smartest person in the room. Usually and uh I succeed in large part because I just work really hard. You're pretty smart though. Like I've I've been watching your podcast for a while. Like you've done a Pretty amazing job.

33:30 I appreciate it. So in this um this permission to win concept, the reason I think it's so important is it's so easy to build stuff now. Everyone's just building, building, building, building, launching, launch, launching, launching. Mm. It feels like this is uh an increasingly important. lever is why will we win in this space.

33:47 Um, I'm curious if there's an example you can share either from Box or Cisco where it's just like, Okay, this is like We're gonna do this because we're Because we have the permission to to play here. I agree with you in the sense that If

34:00 If Generating code. Is something that becomes abundant. That doesn't mean you're gonna have better technology just because you can generate a lot of code.

34:11 You still need Human judgment. You still need level of intuition on what problems are the right ones to solve. You still and yes, AI can help you with all of that, but it's not something that

34:24 Like that's where Humans have a superpower, they have instinct. And they can actually Make sure that they can You know

34:32 Fulfill out a vision. That says this is what I think this could be. In in the fullness of time. Um and so that that I think is pretty important. So the more The easier it gets for us to get um

34:46 Bottlenecks out to generate code. The harder it gets for us to make sure that there's not AI slot in the market. And that we actually are very selective on what are the things that are gonna be the most important things. That's all the most important problems. Moving forward.

35:01 Example of Permission to play. Is I mean there's So many ideas. At a company the size of Cisco, we have

35:10 Constantly. New ideas that keep coming up. You know. And Then

35:17 And those new ideas that keep coming up, people will always say, Oh my goodness, this Company is doing so well. We should just go into that market. Or we should just go into this market. And ninety percent of the times, ninety nine percent of the times, I find myself saying no. And the reason for that is you have to be extremely selective of where you expend your calories.

35:37 And that caloric expenditure is Is where You know, if you expend your calories in a very focused way. The results you'll get from that focus area. Tend to be outsized and disproportionate.

35:49 If you dissipate. That caloric burn. Across multitude of different areas. Nothing gets enough girth. to be able to go out and drive it all the way through. And

36:01 And so like You know Why are we not in Business to consumer tech. Let's just go.

36:09 Right. Like why why are we not going out and building things? There are um Very, very B to C because I don't think we have a distribution channel. That actually is within our DNA? I don't think that we've got permission to play there.

36:23 That's an area where it would be Extremely hard for people to Well that Cisco should be the one who's participating in that. Now can we do it? Of course we can do it. Is that where we wanna go, or do we wanna go where there's so much opportunity in the areas where we can actually prosecute with With the um with the

36:41 But the ability to have You know, operate from a position of strength. That Um you just get a much better return for the dollar that you invest. Mentioned Aaron as uh CEO that you learned a lot from.

36:54 I'm curious what other COs you've learned a lot from and what's What's something you learned from them? Chuck Robbins is one of my Favorite humans. And not just because I work for him, uh

37:05 I work for him because he's one of my favorite humans. Mm-hmm. And What I've learned from him, he had this kind of great line. There was this um

37:19 Or Our media is very sens sensationalist in by by definition. Right. try to create a very polarized view about the world when there actually isn't one most things in my life

37:32 Things are not as extreme as you hear of the headlines of the media. You know. Uh it's somewhere in the middle. Right. And Uh, there was one time that there was this

37:44 Article that ran. And It was about like You know giving me an unnecessary amount of credit.

37:53 And frankly, not giving Chuck as much credit about something that he has actually done. Like a lot of the movements that we've had internally wouldn't have happened if he had not hired me and given me agency to go do the things that I needed to get done. And he was very much completely in sync with me on what needed to happen. Um

38:13 And so You know I I when I saw this article, I had no idea the report. I I reached out. I'm like, Hey, I just wanna let you know this was not me saying it someone. I'm gonna. Geef it. Don't worry about it, man.

38:24 What I've learned in life is If you don't care about who gets the credit. You just go a lot farther. In life. And it's so profound.

38:35 Right. In so many ways. That He's just way too Confident in that Anything. And so the thing I've learned from Chuck is the importance of confidence.

38:47 And the importance of knowing what you're good at. And we're not gonna I mean not good. You're gonna assemble a team of people around you? He's just he's just masterful of that.

38:58 And it happens. By the way, he's the he's the C of Cisco in case peop people have to be. Very dear friend of mine. And um And I feel like there's a lot to learn from that kinda mental model and mindset.

39:15 And I I I I I've been lucky enough money that And this is just dumb luck. The people that I've worked with And four. Or all

39:24 Very, very close to me. And I just don't let them go from my life. And so one of the things, for example, is I worked with Aaron. And then when I was leaving it was very emotional.

39:37 Uh, but I wanted to do something different. But we committed to each other that we're gonna have dinner every six weeks. And Aaron and there's another co founder, Jeff Queiser and I, three of us. Every six weeks in Palo Alto we have done it. You know, and

39:51 It's one of the most Uh special things that I I still do, and it's a tradition now. It's been going on for six years. And um and I love it. You know, um

40:02 You um you look at Someone like Shark? We have I I start with my day with talking to him in the morning. We we text each other.

40:11 Uh and then I end the day. Talk to them in the evening. And we probably touch base at least Four or five times a day. They're not long conversation at all points in time, but we're constantly in contact with each other.

40:23 And I feel like that only happens when you've established enough trust. There's my one my first boss when I moved to California. There's this guy named Rick Devanuti. Uh and then and then another guy named Jeremy Burton. You know, Rick Davenu is still my coach. I see him every two weeks. Jeremy's someone that's a very dear friend of mine and we're neighbors and we moved and bought bought a place next to his

40:44 Um, just so that we could be close to them. And these are like special people in your life that have enriched your life in very different ways. That I I think you just have to make sure that you treasure. Today's episode is brought to you by Some Sorrow. If you listen to this podcast, You know that we spend a lot of time talking about building things that sit on a screen, onboarding funnels, mobile apps, and checkout flows. Samsara is building products for the physical world.

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41:58 That's S A M S A R A dot com slash Lenny. So you're currently CPO uh at Cisco, you I think the team under you is it twenty five thousand people, is that the right number? About thirty thousand, but uh thirty thousand people, okay. Yeah. What's

42:14 What's something that you wish you'd known before taking on this role? I don't know if it was I mean I Instinctively kind of knew it, but it was very, very uh accentuated at Cisco because when you like you know when people say, Oh Is um

42:30 Is scale hard. And my perspective has always been that the absence of scale is way harder. Than scale. What do I mean by that? Like if I have a startup. With three people.

42:45 And we need to prosecute another idea. And that idea requires Um Yeah, five people working on it. I have to go raise money.

42:55 Right. I it's it's an int or I have to pivot my entire business. If you have thirty thousand people then you have an idea that requires five people. You just figure out a way that you allocate the dollars internally. And say, Let's go prosecute this idea. So in my mind I always felt like absence of scale was way harder.

43:16 Than the presence of scale. And operating with within scale. Seemed like it was like yeah, uh you have more opportunity to do it. What I found Over the years. Not just at Cisco, but even when I because I ran a small startup in

43:31 In um in Chicago for like seventeen years before I moved over to The valley. What I found in the large companies is Communication framework. And the lossiness of communication, the telephone game, so to say.

43:46 has a profoundly negative effect if you're not intentional about it and if you're not careful of it. And There was this board member that we had. There's a couple of board members. Um, our lead director, Michael Capellis, is amazing. Um there's this other board member Yeah, Cat Calvin is amazing. And then there's this one board member, West Bush, who We recently, um, you know, rolled off, but he used to be on our board.

44:09 And when I got this job He pulled me aside. He's like, Giko, I'm gonna tell you something. I'm gonna give you some advice. And um Take it or leave it, but I think it's gonna be important for you to keep it in mind. Like, What's that? And he goes Whatever you do

44:22 Um Don't think about Your story. Of the company. As a marketing exercise.

44:30 Think about it. As the most intrinsic foundational exercise of the company. And always be The custodian of the message.

44:41 don't delegate that to someone else to give it because if you have Three, four, five, six, seven layers between you and the person who's actually doing the job in the front line. What you don't want to do is play the telephone game and assume that people will just cascade it when you go to your team and then say, Okay, that team will cascade to the next team, cascade to the next team, cascade to the next team. Every one of them will add a flavor. With

45:05 Well intentioned. And then by the time it gets to the end. People won't know what it is. So always own telling the story. And I'm like, that seems like it's a lot, because if we have a very broad portfolio, we do all of these events, it's you know, like I'm gonna have to sit stand on stage for Ninety minutes and just talk about you said.

45:25 Please do that. Make sure you don't and and I initially The hidden benefit that came out of it that I did not realize. Is It massively, Lenny, simplified our business.

45:36 And you know why? Because we have such a broad business with so many different industries. It's impossible for someone to be a deep expert in every single one of them. across the board. Like there's just way too much surface area. But

45:50 The things that we want to convey to the market that the market should take away from us. If that story is not something That I understand well enough to be able to convey it. How do I first expect twenty thousand of my sellers to be able to go tell it to the market.

46:06 And how do I expect my customers To be able to digest that story. There's Zero chance that would happen. Right.

46:16 And so That was my my kind of big takeaway from this, which is Don't Um delegate the storytelling. And the storytelling is not a marketing exercise after you built the product. The story is why you build the product to make the story come real.

46:35 And to make sure that the story is there first. And then that story has evidence. And proof. Based on the products that you're building. I had a conversation with Matt Mc McGinnis.

46:46 who's COO and now CPO at Rippling and he had a similar piece of advice, which I think is also It's like a uh a JS, which is The intensity of Of an idea or uh Or plan.

46:59 drops at every level that it goes from CO to the next layer and layer. And your job as a leader is to maintain that intensity, not to buffer it from the employees. But maintain exactly the same intensity. And it feels like

47:11 That's all. In addition to also Just the s keep the story the same. Like don't filter it, don't change it. Although your advice is even different, just like you actually go to the team working on it and ha and tell the story yourself. Don't even let it be. So that there's no mossiness. You know, like we have this concept in networking called packet loss, where the you're you know, you actually send packet over a wire and then you have a loss of packets, then it actually there's Um um there's lots of data. Like you don't want to have packet loss.

47:40 In your story telling. From you to the person on the front line because the direct Ethernet Cat five connection. This is just a direct connection and you know there's no back to loss on this one. And I think the reason for that is As companies get large They can lose touch with the front lines. Like everyone gets really good with the math of the business, but they don't really always

48:02 preserve the soul of the business. And there's a lossiness that happens because If you have seven, eight layers between you and the front line Even the message that's coming back to you from them. Is actually getting lossy. And so what you have to do is just preserve and I think um

48:19 What was said earlier about the intensity is the same way, which is You gotta preserve the intensity, you gotta preserve the sanctity of the message, and you gotta preserve the clarity of the message so that everyone is clear on the direction we're going down, and if you can stay clear And stay motivated about that direction. And make sure that everyone's on the same page and what needs to be done to execute.

48:41 You will have success. If not. You will actually have guaranteed failure. How do you actually operationalise this without just uh being overloaded with work and constantly having to

48:51 you know, meet with every team and remind them of the story. The first thing I feel is You have to have very clear thinking. Because the clarity of thought is what brings clarity of Communication.

49:02 So you have to spend the time with your team. In sweating the details. On what what it is that you want to do and why you want to do it. The context of why. Is so lost.

49:17 Uh and constantly reminding people why it's important. And having the least amount of asymmetry between the Topmost layer in the organization and the bottom most layer is super now by the way, you know, I'm a Section sixteen officer, there's certain things that

49:31 For example, you're in a quiet period you can't go talk about to someone else during that time period. Like that you you know, but that's not allowed. However The most amount of context that you can provide them. In the way that you can. Because you're allowed to.

49:45 The better off you are. And Always treat people like adults. You know, like what I found is Oftentimes when you go into Corporate

49:54 environments like people start becoming very sterile in the facts that they provide. And Sometimes it's okay to just say, Hey, we screwed up here. This one's really bad. It's not meant to

50:08 You know, like one of the things that I've found To be Very counterintuitive because every management book that you read will tell you otherwise. What do they say?

50:18 Praise In public. And criticize in private. I Fundamentally disagree with that notion.

50:27 I think what you have to do is establish enough trust. Among the team. So that you're comfortable Critiquing. And debating in public.

50:38 When you're in private Take that moment to build the trust. Because if you build that trust And you tell them that you've got their back. And you create a level of safety there.

50:53 In public. You don't want to be in a mode of posturing, you want to be in a mode of problem solving. When you're just giving people Perfunctory compliments all the time. And everything's just hunky dory, rose card glasses, great.

51:07 All your dashboards look green, but you're growing the business at like one and a half percent. Like there's s there's an asymmetry there. Something's broken. You know, it's like What do we need to do over here? And so what I tend to do is use the exact opposite approach. I tend to be very, very

51:24 Direct in public. Yeah, be respectful, but be direct in public. This is not working. Let me tell you why it's not working. We gotta face the facts. And then be very, very kind of um Clear with people that you got their back.

51:40 Private. And don't be stingy with words on that front. You know, um Because I feel like some s there are times when people are very stingy with Wards with people in private.

51:50 You can't be stingy with words over there, and don't be don't be stingy with critique. In public. Because I think people need to make sure that we're we're solving problems together. And if we don't know the play that we're executing, if we don't know the things that we're gonna need to do, then then I I'm I'm not really certain

52:07 If you're making collective progress. And I think it's not going to be fulfilling to either you or the recipient at some point. And those Those compliments will feel hollow. Because you didn't mean them. Because you to you you were trying to

52:21 Put it in between you know, like Ben Horwitz says in hard things about hard things, like you you have a shit sandwich, you say something really nice to someone Then you say something that's not really nice and then you put No, just Treat people like adults. Tell them the facts.

52:36 Watch your tone. I still have to work on that. There are times when I get very passionate, people think like Yeah, but watch your tone. And Make sure that you debate conflict is a necessary condition of business.

52:49 But the only way that you can have productive conflict is if you've established trust. And the only way that they can establish trust is by making sure that you spend the time to establish the trust. So spend the time to establish the trust. But then focus on the Best idea winning.

53:05 And actually having the debate. Is there maybe one more lesson that you learn from this? Or I guess it's a Uh something you wish you'd known before getting into this role. Is there anything else that comes to mind? I was an apps guy. You know I've

53:17 I operated in the apps layer. I worked at Balkhs and even when I was at EMC I I was building apps that you know Uh you built for the end user.

53:28 Infrastructure is a different game. And the thing that I learned about infrastructure is You don't always get the glory. But you always get the blame.

53:41 Perfect. And And you have to be comfortable. With the fact that You are

53:47 Working in a way that other people get the glory. Great infrastructure companies. The application companies get the glory when they're running on that infrastructure. You know, and so you you have to be hardwired in infrastructure. To orient on your ecosystem success, not just your own success.

54:07 And that is probably one of the lessons that I learned at Cisco. In a very stark way, which I d I didn't fully appreciate it until I got into the details of the infrastructure going, Wow, if this thing doesn't Work. You know, like we were um

54:24 Wow. Every single time our infrastructure doesn't work. This morning I was with um with a medical institution I I I was with a healthcare company this morning. And They were telling me that they were the very

54:38 Complimentary. There were Thanking us on the partnership. I I asked them why do you Why are you doubling down with us? And they're like, because When the infrastructure doesn't work.

54:51 People die. Someone doesn't get dialysis. Someone doesn't get a surgery done. And We need to make sure that we're

55:00 working with someone with the infrastructure's working. And so I feel like At that point in time, you can't be navel gazing too much about look how cool you are because you did something. You have to just make sure that you're really immediately s shifting your focus to What does the customer do and what does the ecosystem do with your infrastructure so that the outcome is achieved. And you have to get very outcome oriented. Um

55:24 And I feel like that was something that I always int intellectually knew, but I didn't fully realize it until I came here on how important of a mindset shift that is. You're not talking about yourself, you're talking about the system just working. No one will come and tell you, hey, G two.

55:42 Um Thank you so much, my network work today. Right. But The moment it doesn't work.

55:49 They're gonna call you and say, You know what? My network's not working and my people Can't work. And patients are dying in the hospital. And I think you just have to be comfortable with that.

56:00 It's so interesting how this adv how this lesson connects so directly to the lesson you learned from Chuck, the CO of Cisco. Which is don't Don't expect the The praise and the credit.

56:11 You need to be comfortable with other people getting credit for your work. That's right. And by but by the way, it's not surprising given that he's spent like I don't know twenty six, twenty eight years over here. Um Like You know why that's the

56:25 Yeah, the he's He's conditioned with the fact that he's focused on other people. succeeding from it. From his work. Yeah.

56:35 It feels like there's so many metaphors and uh corollaries to uh Networking as a way to Think about leadership and And living life. It really is. Oh man.

56:45 Bet you guys have all kinds of examples. Parallelism between life and networks. Mm. I'm thinking about just like how many friends Like uh Dunbar's number, like how many nodes can you have in a network before it starts to slow down? Yeah. Yeah. Maybe a hundred fifty. Oh man, okay. Anyway, as

57:08 I'm thinking like how many can you have? I think more than one hundred and fifty for sure. Yeah. I was so Um I also was thinking about Intel the whole Intel and side.

57:20 move was such a clever way to break through that where, you know. No one's no Intel. So they're just like slap a sticker into inside. And by the way, they are um you know Lipu is a Is a very dear friend. Pat Gelsinger used to be my mentor at EMC, um

57:34 And so uh both those people that have had such a profound contribution. to that industry in general, um Like when you start thinking about them, they're very, very much on that. On that mode.

57:46 I could see how you pull together this uh insane collection of humans if you're just feels like you're just friends with everybody. I feel like it's life's too short not to be and I'm only friends with people that I feel are good human beings. Like what I try not to do is I try to minimize my time no matter how successful they are. With people whose energy I don't vibe with. Because I think life's too short.

58:07 You know, and um In my mind, one of the most off putting things. Is Look, all of us have a healthy ego. There are times when ego gets manifested with insecurity.

58:19 And you have to make sure that you're at least self aware enough to know when your ego is starting to take over. your behavior in a way that's counterproductive. And all of those things are super important. But What I think Is Extremely important is that you um

58:36 Like It life is just fun to live. When When you love the people you are around. Can I digress for a second?

58:46 And there's one story that I've uh so I'll I'll tell you the story that was So my mother was um Yeah, she passed away two and a half years ago, but she was extremely sick in the hospital for like Um Eight weeks.

59:01 Before she passed away. I was very close to my mom. Like that she was my My everything. You know, and and

59:09 Yeah. only child. I grew up with a rough childhood. I had to You know, my dad was A high stakes kind of Con man like Bernie Madoff, I didn't want to be any part of that. So I'd actually left India, come over here, hadn't gone I hadn't seen him and so

59:24 He was very abusive to my mom. So there was a bunch of that that had happened. So we had had a very You know, kind of difficult early childhood life for me and her and I had bonded during that that time very, very, you know, uh at a very deep level.

59:40 And so when she Came to America um Um you know, we kind of Yeah. She al always wanted to have her own place, but she kind of lived very close by and she was very dependent on me.

59:52 On you know, emotionally and In every way. I had almost become a parent to her. And then the last Eight weeks.

1:00:03 Things flipped. And she was Um, she became a parent again. And so we were, you know, kind of We were getting to the point where she was Ending her journey.

1:00:14 And I was Shouldn't Like one in the morning at the t um at the bedside by her in the hospital. I was living in the hospital at the time. And she was sleeping and I was just crying. Profusely.

1:00:28 And she wakes up. And she knows why I'm crying because she's gonna be gone soon. And she looks at me, Lenny, and she's like all perplexed. And she's like I had no idea. That you loved me so much.

1:00:44 No, by the way This is like the most Uh abnormal thing for me to hear because I'm like, What are you talking about, Mamlet? I Like You you you're one of the most important people in my life, and I was

1:01:00 Like everything that I did was to make sure that my mom was okay. Why did I Why did it feel that way? To her. She didn't know how I was thinking.

1:01:10 And that kind of notion of People don't know what's going on in your mind. is so important that my biggest lesson from that was don't be stingy with words. 'Cause even my mother that knows me inside and out didn't know how much I loved her. That there's no chance that people in the business world are gonna know how you feel if you're not explicit with them. And so I'm actually very clear with people.

1:01:33 When I find them and when I find them rewarding, I let them know how much they mean. Because I genuinely find a lot of energy coming out of that. And we The circle of friends just keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And I've I found that to be like a super rewarding thing in life.

1:01:51 And um And you're right, most of the people that were at the AI summit Arm Or dear friends. You know, and

1:01:58 Isn't that the just a better way to live life? I've I think we've uncovered one of the secrets of your success. Which is uh just tell people how you feel and help them to see that you appreciate them, make it clear that you appreciate them, that you value them. Which is a lot of people don't do. They just kind of assume they know that. Yeah, that they like you.

1:02:16 And don't make it fake. And don't make it fake. Don't make it fake. You know. If you don't love someone, don't tell'em you love'em. That's the other thing that I am. You know.

1:02:27 It's so interesting. I just um We just did a little interview kind of. Thing with my mother in law. meant for our our son, just like for him to have when he's older. Uh they just like interviewed her about her story and stuff and they asked her at the end of it

1:02:42 What's something you want Jude, which is his name, to to know. A lesson to learn from you. And it's to just if you love someone, tell them you love them. As much as you can.

1:02:52 Yeah, that's so true. You're so intentional about the way in which you do these things. I wish I'd done like a I should do that. No. Now I think about it. Like do a podcast for my daughter.

1:03:03 That's only for her when she gets older. I'll send you these this group they do this. I think they're in the Bay Area, but it's incredible. It's a like a whole documentary thing where they f interview you film all your life for a little bit and then make a whole documentary. Oh really? Oh wow I'd love that actually. Yes. No man, they're gonna get a lot of business right now. There you go. Let me end w end with a question.

1:03:26 Around just your journey. So today you lead product at a a ninety thousand person company, you manage thirty thousand people. Like you said, you you were grew up in in India and Bombay, uh very far outside Silicon Valley. A lot of people hearing this today are kind of in a similar boat. They're way outside of the valley. They're There' maybe don't have to be a

1:03:47 A lot of Obvious way to break in to ha they don't have a lot of opportunity. And they see someone like you And that's their dream. What would

1:03:56 Your advice be to someone in in that place right now. The platform that you choose And the quality of problems that you pick to solve. Actually Determine a lot of the path of success for you.

1:04:09 And Typically like harder problems. have a higher likelihood of success. Because the harder problems are the ones that attract Better people.

1:04:20 to that problem and business is a team sport. And if you attract People do. the problems that are hard and important enough to solve. Then

1:04:30 Then you get the best team and when you get the best team, your odds of running just go up exponentially. So most people think I'm gonna go out and pick an easy enough problem to solve. You don't get the Best team attracted to you. Mm- start up along the eight stand.

1:04:44 Very important. Job. That might not be the thing that actually gets the best team to come to you, but if you actually pick a hard enough problem to solve you'll get the best team to come. So that's one. Number two.

1:04:56 I'd say that You can teach And learn a lot of things in life. I don't think you can learn hunger. Well you can't teach hunger.

1:05:06 So find what you're intrinsically hungry about. And Make sure that you try to pursue That area. And that's different from passion about something. It's like

1:05:17 In everything that you do in work, you have to just understand the formula that There's gonna be thirty percent of the stuff that you do at work that you're just gonna hate. And you have to get used to things that you hate that you have to do. You know, um But

1:05:32 For their But find something that you're really hungry about that makes you want to come in. Um to work every day. Because the mission is worth The

1:05:44 um the expenditure of uh of energy that you're You're you're putting into it. And I'll leave you with a story which was Like

1:05:55 I I hadn't gone to India in a long time. When I left India I didn't go back. I left in ninety one and I hadn't gone back in any kind of meaningful way until twenty seventeen. Um Yeah, because all the trauma in childhood I was like, you know Or it was Uh for whatever reason I hadn't gone back. I I took my daughter and we went to Agra to see the Taj Mahal and we went there. And there was this tour guide, his name was Raj.

1:06:18 The store guide. Or is like He understood So much about the product that he was. selling which was the tour of the Taj Mahal.

1:06:28 I don't know if he was making this shit up or not, but it sounded really good and he seemed like he was kind of really on it. But when we were walking back All these people And he would just start talking to them and he'd bust out in different languages. You'd talk to someone in German, talk to someone in French, someone in Spanish, someone in Hindi, someone in You know, and at some point in time in Mandarin and so at some point in time I kinda start, Dude, how many languages do you speak? Oh, I speak like I don't know, twelve or fourteen or some ridiculous number.

1:06:55 But I try to learn a new language every Yeah. Like, oh why's that? And he goes. Well, I just want to honor the people.

1:07:04 that come here and not be presumptuo that they will speak the language that I know. I want to speak in their language. And I'm thinking to myself, if I was a box at the time, I'm like that this guy is smarter than every person on the executive team and probably just as smart as every salesperson we have, but he's making Ten dollars a day.

1:07:23 And all of us are enjoying this amazing life. And it's because We have access to a platform and he doesn't. So When people start confusing

1:07:34 Life thinking that Everything that I've earned is because of my amazing abilities. I always kinda qu question that because there's a lot of luck in this thing. But when luck does present itself be extremely prepared to capitalize on it.

1:07:51 And make sure that you picked the platform that can actually give you that springboard. Because platforms really matter. And if we Like I had the platform and benefit of America of education also. Um of being in um In tech of having great

1:08:08 Friends and mentors. Th all of those things created compounding value. Right. We I intentionally sought out those platforms. Seek out the platform.

1:08:20 B obsessed about being extremely prepared. And don't be intellectually lazy. Uh laziness is not a good trait. Oh

1:08:32 Do the preparation that's needed. And then Um You know Just make sure that during that time period that you're doing if you build

1:08:42 Oh. community around you of people that are vested in your success. I think it's just because life is just a more fun way to live it. Rather than being the lone wolf that's going out by themselves. And that's why I always feel like Making sure that

1:08:58 You are Expressive and communicative and don't try to carry the entire world's burden on your shoulders, but actually share it with people with you. The people that you share it with actually appreciate that you're sharing it with them. And most people In the world love to help.

1:09:17 So ask for the help. But make sure that that help is not transactional and don't just go to them when you need something. Actually try to add value first. for a long enough amount of time. Not because at some point you might need something from them. Just hardwire yourself into adding value to others.

1:09:34 And then eventually that value starts showing up. And life's just a better it's just a better way to live life. And I do feel like right now it's hard for kids getting into the workforce and all that, so

1:09:47 Don't lose hope and stay persistent and have stamina because um These things. go up and down, but if you kinda stick with it, the people that have the most amount of persistence It's very seldom that they don't end up winning. Something that comes to me as you share this this advice. Uh Arnold Schwarzenegger's uh has this book that he put up.

1:10:06 And I feel like the title of the book is the best piece of advice. And the simplest way to describe how to be successful in life Which is be useful. Mm. No, no, no. Okay. That is so good.

1:10:21 Gee, this was incredible. Is there anything that we didn't cover that you wanted to share, anything you want to leave listeners with before we get to our very exciting lightning round? I think there's a framework that I use for great companies that might be worth kinda sharing with people. Yes. There's a six part framework um that I have, which is like you know Um in descending order of importance. And um

1:10:44 On how to build great companies. Uh this is Amazing. Um you Yeah. You get what you pay for it, so they take it with a grain of salt, but

1:10:55 Here's the way I think about it. The most important thing Is timing. The six things you need in a company. If you don't have all these six you don't win. But there's

1:11:04 Stack ranked in descending order of importance. But you have to have all six. Number one is timing. It's the most important. It's the thing that you control the least. And there's a lot of companies that have built amazing products, amazing services at the wrong time.

1:11:19 In the right market and not one. Right. And so timing really matters. You don't control timing. But if you don't have timing, you don't win. Number two.

1:11:28 Is the market. You have to be able to go after a large enough market. A chunk at a time. And if you don't if you're not able to go out and prosecute a market a chunk at a time. But make sure that that keeps getting bigger and bigger. Uh it's very hard to win. So market

1:11:42 Tends to be The second most important thing in my mind after timing. The third one then is team. You know, you have to have the right team. And the team does not mean just people liking each other. Team means that it is actually well rounded. That means the things that you suck at someone else is really good at.

1:11:59 And you've both accepted that of each other. Like for example, I have a person that I Never go to another job without And she is my Partner in crime. And

1:12:10 Um The reason I have her is because she is so good at things that I'm not good at. Yeah, and so she's able to re I Any job I've taken. Since I've

1:12:20 Been working with her. It's always It's a combined deal. Like if we don't have two offers, we don't go. But And so Team is really important, a well rounded team where people understand how to

1:12:31 Um How to complement each other. And by the way, in the team sometimes people say, Well isn't team more important than market? No, if you have a Great market mediocre team team. The market pulls you up if you have a Shitty market.

1:12:44 And a great team, the market drags you down, the market always wins. So no. Timing market. Team. Number four is product. I think product is the soul of a company. That's the That's the

1:12:55 Place where people seek value. Is what are you delivering to me? What problem are you solving to me? Gets manifested through the delivery of a product. So you have to make sure that you build a great product. I actually think it's unethical to have A mediocre product sold in the market, so Timing, market, team, product.

1:13:10 Number five is brand. I had a mentor. One time um that told me Mark Lewis, he said, G don't ever go to a company uh who's lost their brand mojo because very hard to resurrect it back. If they have lost their product, And you can fix the product. But do you think Cybase is coming back? No.

1:13:28 Like you know, once you lose your brand, once you lose the trust, people don't come back to you that much. It's it's very hard to do. And then number six is distribution. Just because you build it, they will not come. You have to make sure that you figure out a scaled mechanism of getting that. that offering. to Uh to many, many people.

1:13:46 And so timing Trump's market, market, Trump's team, team, Trump's product, product, trump's brand, brand, trump's distribution. You don't have all six, you don't win. What an amazing nugget to have at the end here. Um just so I understand how you think about this. Is do you do you have like a template that you work through when you're thinking about a new business unit or new product to launches it? Like what's is timing right is market.

1:14:07 What market do we start with? How do you actually operationwise? I will ask myself the question on Is this the right time? for us to go out and double, triple, quartruple down. We might still be in experimentation mode.

1:14:21 But Do I need to double down on this right now? Because this might not manifest for another seven years. And then we're gonna be too early. And by the way, you have to know the difference between a mega trend

1:14:34 And hype cycle. When there's a mega trend, don't fight don't fight it. And don't succumb to The temptation. Of trying to go out and

1:14:44 Do vanity work for a hype cycle? And there's a big difference between the two. And And I think having the judgment, the older you get, the better that judgment gets. It's just miles. But having the judgment is really important because you see a pattern recognition.

1:14:59 At some point. I imagine AI mega trend. AI is a mega trend, uh, in my mind. Um And you know, there's a bunch of hype cycles we've had. Where I don't

1:15:09 But I d never particularly subscribe to them and the easiest way for me to tell is Well the way it's described. Is it easy? To understand what this could do in its ultimate form? for most people or d do you need to have a PhD to understand what someone's saying?

1:15:25 When you feel like you need a PhD to understand what someone's saying, chances are it ain't gonna be a mega trend because by definition a mega trend is it's gonna impact. A large population of the world. And if the If the thing is too complicated. Chances are it's not gonna have that level of effect outsize effect. That's an awesome heuristic. I imagine you're thinking web three as a classic example. Yes, web three was the one that I actually cite all the time.

1:15:51 What it did. And like all these people were kinda like oh web three, web three. I'm like, I couldn't make a heads or tails out of a use case. But they are. It's like you go to Chat GPT, you ask it a question, you get an answer like I get this. This is easy.

1:16:04 You know? So going back to your framework just to kind of uh close the loop there's it's really interesting that timing is the first variable you look at. This could be an amazing idea. You got the right team. Uh Amazing product that works really well.

1:16:17 But the timing may just not be right. And no matter how awesome it is, it's not it's not gonna work. Steve Jobs put away the iPad because he thought that the iPhone was a better idea. And timing wise. He actually made exactly the right call. You know, uh the iPad became successful because of the iPhone success. The reverse order might have not had the same effect.

1:16:39 But he had to make sure that he focused on one thing and he actually put to the other he said the timing's not right, but I'm gonna get back to it. So by the way When timing is wrong, it doesn't mean that you Scrap the idea. It just means that you might put it on ice for a bit. There's a lot of that happening right now where people tried to do a thing and now AI actually makes it possible and now they're like oh shit. Yeah. It was way too early.

1:16:58 And the the other thing you have to keep in mind is You have to also be good enough to know that when something is gonna be ready in six months, you can't think about where it's g what it's doing today. Like AI is moving so fast right now, like one of the things I tell my team is Fast forward six months from now and Anticipate what that's gonna do and get prepared for that world. Don't get prepared for the world of today.

1:17:20 thinking that you're not going to be able to get there because in six months th your assumption sets are going to be different. And please don't actually then bias yourself. Well, the assumptions that you have right now do not move forward. Like one of the worst things I think companies do sometimes is They put too much emphasis only on ex solely on experience.

1:17:38 And I think experience is good, but experience can actually be meaningfully bad in some areas. Where you get too biased. And so you almost have to say that I have to l have the ability to unlearn and Combination of experience with complete inex inexperience is what creates the magic.

1:17:56 'Cause the inexperience allows you to ask questions That you might have never had. With experience and the combo of those two gives you the best of the pattern recognition. Plus the charting new territory that's never been kind of walked on before.

1:18:10 Yeah, this is a trend I've been hearing on this podcast that People worry about young people and people graduating out of college right now. And jobs and AI. But Yeah.

1:18:20 They're the people that are most Open minded about what Yeah, I can do for them and how to harness AI. And not code in the way people have always coded. It's just like okay, this is the way it works now. I'm good and jade us, right? And I always when people say oh um

1:18:34 Entry level people who will never be hired again. That's the stupidest thing a company can do because now what you've done is you have completely shut the door to new fresh ideas. Like I cannot think Today the way I thought when I was nineteen. There is just no way that I can do that. But what I can try to do is I can try to make sure I surround myself for enough amount of my time to get exposed to that thinking

1:18:57 And then couple it with what I know and maybe have something better than what either of those two could have had by themselves. Yes. Well, with that GT, we have reached our very exciting lightning round. I've got five questions for you, are you? All right. First question. What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?

1:19:17 The Bible in tech in my mind is innovators dilemma. an innovative solution from Clayton Christensen. I think we you have to read that book and I'd I'd say I'd recommend to people that read it or read. Every few years. And then the other one that I love is um Ben Horowitz's book Hard Thing About Hard Things.

1:19:34 really talks about how you manage your psychology when things get hard. I think those are the ones. I I I'm not a big believer that you keep reading like thousands of books all the time because I think like To me, retention really matters. Yeah, my brain's just not that big that I can retain.

1:19:50 That much. So I tend to Distill the essence of a few few things quite a bit more and At least I've the older I've gotten, I've actually used that pattern more. Favorite recent movie or TV show that you really enjoyed?

1:20:03 I don't remember the name of it, but the Bradbitt a Ford movie that I saw that was pretty cool. Um The way it was a recent Brad Pitt movie? Yeah. Yeah. Was it um F one?

1:20:13 It was in F it was F one, I think. I think it was called F one, but it was pretty cool. Yeah. Zach Brown is a good friend of mine and we're big supporters of McLaren and so It was actually pretty cool to watch that movie and Oh man, I bet so many stories I haven't tapped into. Okay. Uh favorite product you recently discovered that you really love? I mean it's

1:20:33 Cliche but I feel like what Chat GPT Gemini and Claude have done Um Because It's changes.

1:20:43 It's changed my life and the way that I learn. And Some ridiculous ways, so. I I actually feel like when I got this new job to run all product for Cisco There's zero chance.

1:20:55 I would have been able to do it if AI wasn't there. Because I didn't know anything about So many domains that we were in. And I had to get an accelerated You know

1:21:07 Uh. Training course. Within a matter of three months. And I mean I

1:21:14 Worked round the clock during that time, but it would I could have worked around the clock without the tooling. And that would have been nowhere near as effective, so I feel like those three have done an amazing thing. And and and grow even like you know, and um What you're seeing with Gronk tied to Twitter is

1:21:30 Pretty amazing. Wow, that's a profound statement. I've never heard that before for someone at your level. that you feel like you wouldn't be able to have done this job without AI. Especially for someone without the background in in networking and

1:21:43 And hardware and Yeah. Uh that is so interesting. It's amazing how just like at every level AI is helping. Like at the most bottom end and also in your level. Most people don't think people. Realize like I

1:21:56 Fundamentally believe this is the the reason that I'm able to enjoy some of the experiences I have I I was lucky enough that we had I'd made enough money before this job, that it was not that was not the thing that was actually Holding us back, but the reason I'm able to

1:22:11 experience some of the things that this job afforded me to experience. Um would have not even been remotely possible. Without AI. Like no chance that would have happened.

1:22:23 Unreal. Okay, two more questions. Yeah. Do you have a favorite life motto? That you often come back to in working life. You already shared a couple but Is there anything else or you wanna double down on one you've already shared?

1:22:34 Stamina trumps intellect. I feel like it's very important to have smart people But You can become smart. If you have curiosity and hunger and

1:22:46 staying power and persistence. And so I think that trait Off like learning to learn and constantly being hungry. And having the stamina and persistence is far more important. than the absolute measure of intellect that you might have because that is

1:23:01 That is very, very trainable. And learnable over time and improvable over time. But hunger is very It's not teachable, is what I've found. I a hundred percent agree with that. Interestingly, when you watch AI work

1:23:15 It's just like Partly the reason it's so good is it just keeps trying. It's just like okay, this didn't work. Let's keep going. What else can we just keep trying. Okay. Just give me half an hour, I'll figure this out. Okay, uh last question. So when you were younger, you worked at Sizzler Steakhouse, making four dollars an hour, is what I read. Two twenty five, not four.

1:23:34 It was below minimum wage. Yeah. Two twenty five. But but but we got tips. We got tips though. So that was Okay, I see. Uh, did you have a favorite dish at Sizzler? Is my question.

1:23:46 Yes, they used to have this Malibu chicken dish. Like magic, but um And then um Um There was

1:23:55 It was probably about I don't know if People know this and I know this is rapid fire, but I used to stutter. when I started working at Sizzler and Sizzler is what allowed me to Break out of my shell and not stutter. Because

1:24:09 you know, something changed in my brain where I'm like, I have to entertain people and if I don't then they're not gonna give me a good tip. And so you the stuttering runaway at Sizzler. So I have an immense debt of gratitude. And I think everyone should work in hospitality for a while in the younger years. Uh and I'm I I'm kinda sad that

1:24:29 My daughter has no interest in doing that because I'm like, I wish she just worked As a waitress somewhere for a bit. And it's just so important. There's so many lessons.

1:24:40 On Yeah, I I I cleaned toilets at the restaurant, I actually wash dishes, I actually rated on tables. And it was It was the best experience I had. Like it it shaped me for what was to come.

1:24:57 In the most profound way. G2, you're just endlessly full of of wisdom. Two final questions. Where can folks find you where do you want to point people to to learn more about you, what you're up to, and how can listeners be useful to you? where you can find me is I I tend to a a lot of people will ask You know, the m more Um

1:25:14 success you encounter the more people wanna get mentored by you and learn from the experiences you've had and I I have run out of cycles to be able to do that on a one on one basis. So what I try to do is do a lot of that on LinkedIn. Um and Twitter, but Largely I I do a lot of that on LinkedIn.

1:25:31 And so find me on LinkedIn. Um I I tend to be very open about um Not just the work stuff, but the non work stuff. Um Do that. How can

1:25:43 Um People be useful to me. Was that the question? What was the last question? That is. How can listeners be useful to you? How can listeners be useful to me? If there's um I would say that If you got something out of this session. And if you get something out of whatever you learn from social media

1:26:01 Just pay it forward. Um And help the next person out a little bit more. Um Yesterday I was at a

1:26:08 As a at a talk and someone Pull me aside and said, Hey I I saw your LinkedIn post about this. Don't be stingy with words. And G two since then I've been going to

1:26:20 See my parents Once every Uh two months or so in India. And I when I see them, I tell them that I love them. All the time.

1:26:30 Yeah. Literally, um What What could be more rewarding to me than that? Thank you.

1:26:38 You know, it was amazing that they were able to go out and have Joy brought to their lives. as a result of something they got inspired by something that I I learned in my life. It's like State forward.

1:26:51 I'm excited to hear the stories that come out of this conversation. G two, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. By everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

1:27:07 Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show. at Lenny's podcast dot com. See you in the next episode.

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