The high-growth handbook: Molly Graham’s frameworks for leading through chaos, change, and scale

0:00 You've worked with many very high performing Founder CEOs, Zuck, Cheryl, Sandberg, Larry and Sergey Google, Bret Taylor. Google, when I was there, felt like two PhD students paradise. Facebook felt like 19 year old hacker's dorm room. 80% of the culture of a company is literally defined by the personality of the founder. Our job as operators or as leaders is to help our Articulate the culture that they're creating. When a lot of people think Molly Graham, a lot of people think of giving away your Legos. You have to grow as fast as your company is growing if you really want to take advantage. Both learning to give away what you've gotten good at and move on to the next shiny pile of Legos. Sarah Caldwell, she told me that the framework that helped her most. In her career is something that you call the J curve versus stairs. So Chamoth, when he pitched me on this job, actually drew me a picture on a boiteboard. He said, The way a lot of people do careers is a set of stairs. Just walk up the stairs and you'll get promoted every two years. But that is boring. The much more fun careers are like jumping off cliffs. And you do fall, but then you climb. I'm out, way beyond where the stairs could ever get you.

1:08 Today my guest is Molly Graham. Molly was an early employee at Google, also at Facebook, where she worked closely with Zuck on building the Jan Zuckerberg Initiative. She also worked with Brett Taylor on scaling Quip, which he sold a salesforce. She's also worked with hundreds of companies and founders, helping them grow into the leaders that they want to become. Today she leads Glue Club, which is a community for leaders operating in changing, growing environments who want to develop themselves as quickly as their companies. Molly is maybe most known for her advice to give away your Legos.

1:40 Which we chat about, along with basically all of her favorite frameworks and mindsets and pieces of advice that she's developed and collected over time for leaders who are going through rapid scale and growth and are just struggling to keep up. I think of this episode as a high growth handbook for leaders who are experiencing rapid scale. We cover the J Curves versus Stairs approach to career growth, the waterline model, and why you want to snorkel before you scuba. Her six rules for creating goals and building alignment, her rules of thumb for dealing with rapid scale and lots of change. The biggest lessons she's learned from Zuck and Sergey and Larry and Cheryl and Bret Taylor and so much more, Molly is incredible, and you will be a better leader after listening to this episode. A huge thank you to Eric Antonow, Ashley Murphy, and Sarah Caldwell for suggesting topic and questions for this conversation.

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4:32 Molly, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast. Thanks, Lenny. I'm excited to be here. I feel like this conversation was an inevitability. feel like they're the kind of guest where is like we will do this someday. I'm such a fan of your stuff. I've read all the stuff you've put out there over the years.

4:48 We're gonna be talking about the best frameworks and mindsets that you've developed over the years that have been really helpful to you, to founders, to companies that you've worked with. to help them with. growth and scale and change and all the stuff that comes with success. Uh the way I think about this, I want to make this the greatest hits of Molly Graham.

5:06 Love it. And so I sourced what I think are the greatest hits from a lot of colleagues that you've worked with, a lot of people you've worked with. We've chatted about the stuff that you Find other people find most helpful. So we're gonna be going through all that stuff.

5:18 Let's help people uh understand why they need why they should listen to this advice. What's kind of the backstory on these frameworks. Where did they come from? Where did you develop them? Um tell us that story. So first of all Ami Vorra, who you have had on your podcast, once said to me that all advice is just someone telling you what they did.

5:37 And I always think about that because I really think that basically what I tell people is I've made every single mistake in the book. And then I got to the end of the book and I started inventing new mistakes. So Mostly what I feel is that I like sharing my stories because I want to help people. I want to help people not make the same mistakes I did. Um, and I also want to help people make sense of what they're experiencing. But I I started in tech uh in two thousand and seven. I actually started at Google the week the iPhone. And a lot of my scaling battle scars come from a couple of experiences. They come from

6:14 Um A year and a half at Google, which is not very long, and Google was Pretty big when I was there is thousands of employees. But My department, which was the communications department, was twenty five people when I joined and it grew In nine months to a hundred and twenty five people.

6:29 And that was really my first experience with just all the sort of things that I still talk about today in terms of what it feels like to grow really, really fast. Um and You know, sort of all the the tools that I started developing from there. Um

6:45 After Google I left, uh and followed Cheryl Sandberg and Elliot Shraig to to Facebook and I um spent five years at Facebook. And I joined Facebook in two thousand eight and it's Important context'cause it was eighty million users at the time. We were smaller than MySpace.

7:04 It was you know. Two hundred and seventy million in revenue, five hundred employees. It did not feel inevitable. Most people thought we were gonna sell it to Microsoft. When I told people I was going there and they were like It's not a place just like a site for college kids.

7:17 Um And so I was there for five years, and it was a crazy five years. And I left. It was Fifty five hundred employees. Five billion in revenue.

7:28 over a billion users. Um So, you know, a huge amount of what I experienced, what I write about, what I talk about in Glue Club, which is the community that I run. is um comes from, you know, sort of that that rapid scale like Google and Facebook.

7:44 But I also I left Facebook in um right after we went public, about six months after we went public and I I only like doing jobs that I'm highly Unqualified for. I like being on learning curves so steep that I'm scared I'm gonna fall off. And So I left and I I wanted to learn what it took to build something from nothing.

8:02 And uh so I joined this little startup uh fo founded by Brett Taylor, a sort of called Quip. Um I joined a couple months before we launched and ran everything that wasn't product and engineering there for him. Yeah. And That was such a valuable experience to me because the experience of building something from nothing is actually quite different than the experience of, you know, sort of like holding on for your life while things are scaling so fast around you. And it really taught me

8:29 About all the tools and skills you need to go from zero to one and then from one to two and how lonely it can be. To build Something? Um

8:38 And uh I we eventually sold that company to Salesforce. Um and then again only take jobs I'm highly unqualified for. But the last really chaotic scaling experience I had was actually helping Mark Zuckerberg and Priscilla Chan start their philanthropy, the Chan Zuckerberg Initiative. And I basically helped them for the first two years of its existence or its sort of like first full existence. And It's philanthropy sounds calm. You know what I mean? We're like, Oh, giving money away. Must be so peaceful over there.

9:07 And C Z I grew from I think the week I joined It was thirty people and we like bought two companies that week and I it grew to two hundred and fifty people that year and it was like using every single tool in my toolkit that I had You know, taken from every other job that I'd had. So My advice and frameworks, like I said, come from having made a lot of mistakes. Um

9:28 But I've also sort of Made a personal study over the last eighteen years, believe it or not. Um

9:36 Essentially like what does it take to thrive? Inside growing and changing companies. Not just to hang on for dear life, um You know, what does it take to lead? In the face of constant change.

9:48 And Really like The other piece that I find truly fascinating is what genuinely makes the difference. between something that a a business that grows but then plateaus.

10:00 versus these generational businesses, the ones that go on forever. Sort of the difference between a Twitter or MySpace and a Facebook. Um billions in revenue versus hundreds of billions in revenue. So What I like to do. is take my experience and use it to help

10:15 Other leaders. I wanna give people tools that work. And I also want to be honest about how hard All of this stuff really is. Amazing.

10:24 I say this a lot on this podcast. I just love the RY the listeners of the podcast get. You spend twenty years toiling, struggling Working so hard, learning so much, and you're just here, here's all the answers that I've learned. And obviously not all the answers, but so many Things that will help people avoid The pain and suffering that you've gone through.

10:42 That's the goal. Also a couple of quick threads I want to follow here. One is Ami Vorra, who you mentioned. She's now, I think, head of product at Anthropic. Yes. Amazing. Former podcast guest, also speaker at the Lenin Friends Summit last uh two years ago. This other point you just made about how you've always gone to places that have been way beyond kind of your Uh, I forget how you phrase it, but just like Uh beyond your current capabilities almost and like Were very difficult.

11:07 Uh I just had uh Matt McGuinness on the podcast. He was CO at Rippling, now C P O at Ripling, and he was just uh just recording an episode with them and he had this really powerful quote that if you ever If you're ever comfortable at work and feel like oh I got this, you're making a huge mistake. Something's going terribly wrong. Yeah, that's not where you want to be. Yeah, I always say I get bored.

11:24 really easily, which is both a strength and probably my greatest weakness. So I like being scared. Okay, so let's actually dive into uh some of your uh greatest hits of frameworks. And uh the greatest of all greats when a lot of people think Molly Graham A lot of people think of giving away your Legos. Uh Some people haven't heard of this. Many people have. So let's cover this.

11:43 What is what is this advice of giving away your Legos? So this definitely started in my experience at Google. Um and then Facebook was like a masterclass in giving away the Legos. Um But uh the way I like to talk about it is basically When I watch leaders and employees go through rapid scale, I like to think of like Somebody putting down a giant pile of Legos in front of like a bunch of kindergartners and then just being like build something.

12:11 And that's sort of what it feels like when you start. It's like Well, there's so many Lego's and it's so fun. There's a lot of opportunity. Um But it's also kind of scary and overwhelming and you're like, There's so many Legos, what do I do? Like Isn't there an instruction manual hidden under this pile somewhere? And

12:28 But then you like start building and you're like Oh okay, like you know you build something and then you take it apart and then you put it back together and then eventually you sort of get momentum and you're like, Okay, it's like I'm building a house. I got this. It's a house. All right, great.

12:40 And then you're like, I'm good at I'm good at building houses. Like I was put on earth to build houses and almost like assuredly inside of scaling companies, as soon as you're like, I feel good at this and I like am I I should do this forever, somebody's gonna show up and be like Be like Okay. It's not a house. It's a neighborhood. Like and you need to like take this house that's kind of half built and you're gonna

13:00 Pass it off to this other person that we just hired, and you are going to go build, you know, dog parks and streets and other things that are entirely unhouse like. And what happens when someone does that to you is you're like, Wait a minute, first of all. I've I'm not done with this house and I'm I'm worried that this person's gonna screw it up. Um, I'm also worried that like building houses is actually the most fun thing and that I'm gonna give the Lego's to that person and they're gonna have all the fun work and I'm gonna hate

13:26 Building dog parks or Um, you know, that dog parks are irrelevant eventually, and it's gonna turn out we're in the house building business. So you're just like there's this like incredible set of emotions that come. Um Territorialness ex paired with excitement, you know, fear paired with Um joy, but but eventually you pass the house off and then you go work on neighborhoods and you're sort of like okay, like dog parks, I'm good at dog parks, I got this.

13:49 And then um You know, again you get to the like, I'm great, I was put on earth to build neighborhoods, and immediately someone shows up and says it's not a neighborhood. It's a country or a city or a world or And it just goes on and on and on. And For me the

14:05 Learning. This muscle. Of um both learning to give away what you've gotten good at. Um and move on to the next shiny pile of Legos.

14:17 And learning that the emotions associated with that are Inevitable, right? Like there's no I've been doing this for eighteen, twenty years. Like I still get attacked by these emotions all the time. Um, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't Give them away.

14:32 And move on to the next thing. That is both the Um torment of scaling companies, which is that the ground is moving under your feet and as soon as you're comfortable, someone will make sure that you are uncomfortable, but it's also the opportunity, which is that you can go from being someone that's good at building houses to someone that knows how to build entire worlds. Um, and that is where the Lego's metaphor came from.

14:55 It is Such a good metaphor. Like if you've gone through this, you so understand what this is like and what And also just the Lego's metaphor is so good for the different things you build. I have I have a very weird brain that for some odd reason just always thinks in metaphors. So it it showed up when I was Uh, Facebook in particular, I would find that like every

15:16 So often I would have to have what I called a Lego talk with someone where I would just see them start to ask these questions like why why are we hiring that person? Or like why would that teen even do? And I was like, Okay, we need to have the chat about the Legos. Um, and then eventually it turned into an article and a whole whole thing. The whole thing. And Just to be clear, the advice is give away your Legos. This is actually the Path to a successful career.

15:39 You know I um Have watched a lot of people. over many years um struggle with Uh

15:50 feeling like they can you know they should hang on to the thing that they've been good at. And it almost always because you know Essentially the nature of a scaling company is that the Lego pile is just getting bigger and bigger and bigger, however fast that graph is going up and to the right. I always say that's The graph of how fast your business is growing, it's the graph of how fast your company is expanding and it's the graph of how fast your job is getting bigger. That means that if you actually just stay and build houses, eventually you're literally buried under a pile of Legos. Do you know what I mean? You held on to something that's down here and the opportunity is actually

16:20 To stay on top of that pile and to learn to just give away. Um your job every So often at Facebook, I got to a place where I was literally giving away my job every three weeks. I was constantly rehiring myself, essentially. Um because um You have to sort of grow as fast as your company is growing if you really want to take advantage.

16:41 of the opportunity that comes with companies that are growing and changing quickly. So people are hearing this, they're like, Okay, like my rational brain's like, I should give away my Legos, it'll help me, it'll be good for my career. In real life, it's very uh hard to actually do to like give away this empire that you've built, this team that you've built, this project that you're like, Oh, this is gonna be my thing. I know you have a really fun useful tool to help people deal with that kind of irrational part of their brain.

17:06 Talk about that. So, like I said, my brain works. In weird metaphors. It's a weird brain. Um, I was raised on the Muppets and I like to think that this one came from I guess growing up watching weird animals, but Basically at some point I realized that this emotional rollercoaster that comes with scaling, with growing, with going through change, any kind of change. Um

17:27 Yeah. Um was never gonna go away. And that no matter how good I got, I sometimes I think it gets worse the more senior you get, actually. Um because you sort of feel like you're supposed to know what you're doing and then you just get attacked by this monster that's like, Who even gave you this job in the first place? So Basically, I externalized all these emotions that come with change into this little tiny monster. Um, I named my monster Bob.

17:51 Your monster can be named. Whatever you want him to be named, or her, or them. And um Bob is you know, Bob's job I like to think his Job is basically to make me the worst version of myself.

18:04 He he's the one that's like You know, oh that person took all the fun Lego's and you should go push them over and grab them back. Um, Bob's job is, you know, Bob's the one that wants to send the rage email at nine PM and Um, you know, burn the house down. Um And

18:19 The thing to learn about Bob is that Like I said, Bob never goes away. Bob is not Bob is someone that you have to learn to deal with. But Bob's job Is to make you the worst version of yourself. So

18:33 Your job is to let Bob do his thing, but not act. On the emotions. Like basically all these emotions are normal and they are not useful. They are not the compass that should be telling you what to do. Um

18:46 But the other role I have for managing Bob is, you know, a lot of people are like, Oh, you're feeling pissed off or tired or whatever. Like, go to bed and wake up tomorrow morning and you'll feel better. And the truth is that like, You know, you like I wanna send the Rage Gmail at nine PM, like you still want to send it at eight AM. And m a lot of these emotions just like do not go away in twenty four hours. Um, so my rule of thumb from Facebook was give it two weeks. And You know, these

19:09 The emotional to sort of Bob Bob is like These waves. And they just roll through. So you know, you made a new hire or somebody came in or You got layered or whatever. you'll have a set of reactions. And those reactions, again, they're normal, but they're not useful. They're not the ones that you should listen to.

19:27 There, Bob. Um and Typically they go away in a couple of days. You get something new, you know, some new wave. But anything that lasts longer than two weeks is actually something you should pay attention to. It's something that, you know, if it if it's been around for two weeks, it's something you should go talk to someone about. Whether It's a manager or a friend or a coach or someone like that. That's the real stuff. Everything else.

19:49 It's just Bob. Is there a rule of thumb for when it actually When you shouldn't give away your Legos when it's like okay, maybe you should fight back on this On this Layering or you know, whatever.

20:00 No rule of thumb. In general, I would actually say embracing change is For Better than fighting it. And

20:10 Um Almost invariably. You cannot see what is around the corner. You know, um But it is almost always

20:22 the thing to focus on. Like A lot of times I think inside of change we get focused on the past. And one of the most valuable things you can do as a manager and a leader is help people focus on the future. Um I think

20:36 I'm sure there are times when people have done it and regretted it and it has led them somewhere. You know, I think being layered, for example, you know, is one of the hardest uh things for people inside these experiences where someone brings in a manager above you. And I've also seen so many stories of that ending up being a great thing.

20:57 For someone. Even though they couldn't see it at the time. Um so in general I would just say Step into the future and let the past go. Um, and see what you're gonna learn. And sometimes you'll learn that

21:09 You know, it's time to leave or That it's not This isn't the right pile of Legos for you, but it'll end up taking you somewhere. That's Worth exploring. Um, holding on to things.

21:20 Almost always leads us. to the worst version of ourselves. It's a very Buddhist uh way of thinking too, of just don't don't cling. Thank you. And it I think another part of this metaphor, I don't know if you think of it this way, is the Legos aren't even your Legos.

21:35 Right. They're like the CO's Legos, the shareholders' Legos. So you think they're your Legos, but no. Yeah. I will say One of the hard earned things. Is

21:47 It can feel very like emotional and it can feel very personal. It can feel like your work I don't know, it can feel like your life is on the line sometimes, just your work life, you know, oh gosh, like Every this matters so much. And one of the things that you learn as you get more senior and just have seen stuff is

22:06 It's gonna be okay. You know, like A friend of mine says Um Careers are long.

22:13 And nobody tells you that. But like They're long. And this moment feels so dire and it feels so hard and it feels scary. And it's gonna be okay. Um so Yeah, it's uh

22:25 It is Hard to know in the moment. And I think like the story is gonna be long and this is gonna be one chapter or maybe even a part of a chapter, not a whole chapter. So Embrace the length. To build on that point, I've realized this is my fourth career.

22:40 Doing what I do now, whatever the hell this is. I was a engineer Then I was a product then I was a founder. Then I was a product manager. And then What the hell I do now, whatever this is, that's a whole different path. You don't have a name for it yet, Lenny? I don't. I hate I hate all the terms people use for this. That's what we'll do. Somebody called me an influencer and I almost ripped their face off. Um

23:04 Yeah, man. The most interesting careers are winding and they have starts and stops and failures and successes and Um, control. Anybody that's, you know, been through a lot of this stuff, control's usually not the the name of the game. It's usually just like let's see what happens, you know, what we're gonna try this and we're gonna see what happens next. This is a great segue to a another framework that I've heard from

23:29 uh folks you've worked with that have been really impactful on them. So um Sarah Caldwell Who's uh a big deal at Open AI. She told me that the framework that helped her most in her career is something that you call the J Curve. versus stairs. career growth.

23:44 Framework, talk about what that's about. I actually gave a TED talk about this one a couple of years ago because I am so passionate about it. Um, but I'll tell I'll I that's like you can listen to the like very packaged, like eight minute version of this, but I will tell you the real story because um It's very relevant to a lot of folks that listen to your podcast. So I was at it at Facebook for um five years. Like I said, I spent two years. The first two years I was in HR. Um, and I was doing sort of employment branding and culture work and I was like ready to stay there, you know. I think I had in my head I was gonna stay there until we went public, like that was my plan. Just because I wanted to like help the company through that moment again in my head.

24:21 So this guy that many people know, uh Chemoth Polyabtiya, came to me. And Tomoth Ram Growth and Mobile at the time. And he came to me and we had lunch and he said in his very tomoth way, like you're useless. What are you doing in HR? Um, like this is stupid. Like you should come work for me. And I and this anybody that knows Stramoth is like, yes, that is actually what he said. He manages to like insult you and compliment you in one sentence. So um So he, you know, he gave me all these options on his team.

24:50 And then the last one he said to me was like I'm gonna go build a mobile phone. Do you want to come? Do you want to come do that with me? And I had like four simultaneous reactions. The first was like That is incredibly stupid. Why are we doing that?

25:02 And then it was like, is that actually a thing that we're doing? And then it was like whoa. I think that sounds Fine.

25:09 Um, and so I left the conversation with Chamath and I went and asked my boss, Lori Goller, who was the head of people at Facebook for a very long time. Like, is this actually something we're doing? And she was like, I can't believe he offered you that, whatever. And I and you know, I I basically just like could not get it out of my head. Um, but it was like didn't make any sense. A that Chemoth had asked me because I was an HR, like, what am I doing? I don't know absolutely jack shit about mobile. Um and uh but you know I had worked on a project with him and he I guess thought I was smart. And I I talked to like Cheryl and she was like, Well, that project will be dead in two months, but you can do it'cause you'll still have a job here. You know, a lot of my dad was like, Well, don't do that, you know. And anyway, a lot of very wise people being like, Don't do that.

25:51 But um I kinda couldn't get out of my head and my friend said to me You know, you've proven you're really good at these sort of like company wide project management and HR. yourself how actually good you are. Like, is this transferable?

26:04 So I took the job and I spent the next six months feeling like an absolute idiot. Like I basically felt like a total jackass all the time. I was sitting in rooms with these like Brilliant people. you know, asking the dumbest questions of my life. And at the end of the six month

26:20 Schmoth, I think, took a lot of pride in giving me like the lowest performance rating I've ever gotten in my life. Um and You know, it just felt like falling off a cliff, um. And uh He, you know, then slowly I remember I had been doing all these trips to Taiwan because we were actually working on hardware. And I at some point came back from Taiwan and I like

26:42 drew on a whiteboard for him the layout of a mobile phone and trying to explain to him kind of like why something he wanted to do was not possible. And I r so vividly remember walking out of that meeting being like, Oh Like I actually know things. And

26:57 Slowly then over the following three years, I became an expert in mobile. And I basically, you know, the genome the phone itself was a giant failure. Like massive costly failure for Facebook. Um, but it let me It was it was not a failure for me. Um, it was a huge job that taught me that I was capable of things that I never could have dreamed of if I had stayed in HR. It um set me up to be

27:22 Mm. capable of taking on things that I didn't Know about And so Chama, when he pitched me on this job, actually drew me a picture on a whiteboard. He said, you know, look, you can stay the the the way a lot of people do careers is a set of stairs. You can be boring to use Jamath and stay on these stairs. Just walk up the stairs and you'll get promoted every two years. And your title will change from manager to senior manager to director to senior director, whatever.

27:49 And he was like, but that is boring. And he's like, the much more fun careers are like jumping off cliffs basically. That you jump off this thing and you do fall, you know, for a period of time. I always like to say it's about six to nine months. But then This thing happens where you climb out. And you know, the picture he drew had this J curve sort of like Basically leading you to places that are way beyond

28:12 where the stairs could ever get you. And to be totally honest, that has been my experience, you know. I uh That taking risks accepting the sort of like terrible fall and that experience of of falling um has been more than worth it.

28:29 And I you know, part of the reason why Sarah mentions it is that I do give this sort of talk to people. that are inside of really fast growing companies because it's such an important place. to let go of Legos and jump off cliffs because

28:44 There's so much opportunity. And it is a place where if you prove to people that you're actually good, if they believe that you are the kind of person that they can use to do lots of things, you can get these opportunities that you are just so deeply unqualified for. But they can take you to places that you could never have imagined. You can come out of those companies with skills that you, you know, no one would ever have reasonably hired you to do, but

29:07 I ended my time at Facebook in product, um and you know, did business development and hardware and whole bunch of the stuff along the way. Um, and again, nobody would have hired me to do that at the beginning, but it's just cause I kept saying yes to things. Molly, I got tingled listening to the story. Wow Does it sound familiar, Lenny? It it does.

29:28 And let me I wanna ask, is you know, jumping off a cliff Um Sometimes you fall. You fall and you keep falling. Are there any kind of uh traits of like, okay, this is one that might be a J curve and worth the risk of falling, and this is when Uh you should probably just not let's not do this.

29:46 Yeah, so you know I just think there are different kinds of fear. And You know, we talk a lot about this in Glue Club because uh one of the things you know, there's there is like a financial fear, right? Like Leaving a job and taking a job that has financial risk associated with it, or leaving a job and taking time off, which is something I spend a lot of time talking to people about.

30:07 Um You gotta do the math, you know, and you gotta sometimes there is a type of fear that is telling you like This is not the right time. Or I don't wanna be financially anxious for Months and months and months. I use finances because it's the most concrete example of like a type of fear that you should actually listen to.

30:25 And sometimes you can do the math. And you know, I always counsel people through that. I'm like, what is the number that you need to hit so that you're not constantly Terrified financially, and that number is, you know, wildly different for people based on their background and their life. Um Can you do that? You know, can you consult, can you whatever in order to to To take this leap.

30:45 But a lot of times fear is just You saying I'm scared I can't do this. I'm scared I'm not capable of it. I'm scared that I Um Yeah, I'm scared he'll fail.

30:56 And that's the kind of fear that I think of as like a flashing green light. Cause I'm like that and I sound like Matt McGinnis said this too, where it's like That's the kind of fear that's saying, Why don't you go prove to yourself? that you are actually capable of this. Or if you fail, s like You'll have learned something too. You know what I mean? You'll have learned

31:15 Like I took this job in product at Facebook, uh, you know, is my last chapter there. And let me tell you things that people should never fucking hire me to do. Like, I am not a good product manager. But I would never I am a gr I've got a great product mindset. I can sit You know, in a bunch of chairs and and and hang with the product folks, but like

31:35 I'm not the person that cares about the button. Do you know what I mean? And I uh would never have learned that. I wouldn't have known kind of who I was if I hadn't taken that risk. And you know, failed or or at least learned that it's not something I wanted to do again. So There's many different lessons that come from

31:53 facing down those fears and and jumping off the cliff, you know? Um but m mostly what it is is Knowing yourself better and knowing where you go next from there. That is such helpful advice. I also love how you frame this of prove it to yourself that you can do this. It's not

32:09 I'm gonna show them that I can do this because the way you describe this, usually it's an opportunity given to you. Hey, can you do this thing? We want you to leave this new thing. And the fear is like I don't think I can do that. Yeah, what you're saying here is Prove it to yourself that you can or

32:23 I guess it's also okay, maybe I can't and then I'll learn that and then I'll know more about myself. Yeah. Exactly. I mean one of the greatest gifts in a career is knowing yourself.

32:34 You know, and Um that's a that's a lifelong journey. Um, because who you are and what you want changes, but That knowledge and that gift, like nothing accelerates your self knowledge faster than trying to do something that you don't know how to do and that you're scared of. There's this probably the quote I use most on this podcast comes up uh again in my mind as you talk about this.

32:55 Uh this line that the cave you fear contains the treasure you seek. Hell yes. Exactly. Well said. There it is. I haven't heard that one from you so clearly I need to listen. Okay, that's great. I'm glad I don't overuse it. It just feels like it comes up again and again. Yeah. And I think your point about the runway and the finances is such an important one, like'cause that's a very real practical question. one thing I did when I took time off, I took a year off after I left my job. Uh, what helped me was I just created a runway goal for myself. I'm just like, okay, here's what it's gonna cost me for

33:24 Six months or a year to live without any income. Uh, am I comfortable just burning through these tens of thousands of dollars? to explore and see something new emerge. And so that you just have to feel good. Okay, yes, I'm gonna burn all that money. That's exactly the exercise. I say burn rate. So like we both were raised Uh inside a company's inside of tech, but um but I think it is do the math, right? What can you afford? What and it's both what can you afford and still feel safe. 'Cause sometimes I mean, again, I think that that is different for everyone, but it is such an important set of math to do because

33:58 A, a lot of times that number is smaller than you think it is, like than your brain makes it out to be if you have this sort of like existential financial anxiety versus like it's I always say like specific financial anxiety is much more useful than existential financial anxiety. And and you know, I you know, some friends are leaving jobs and I'll be like, Hey, you know, your number is Five K or ten K a month. You have to believe. that you can get a consulting gig that will pay you that. Do you believe that? You know, and and it's like either yes or no, and then okay, either we're doing it or we're not. You know?

34:29 The other part of the J Curve that I think is really important to touch on is this idea of for the first six or nine months you're gonna be at the bottom of the J Curve, like falling, still falling. Yeah. And some projects don't last that long and then you're like, Okay, total failure. I never emerged from this fall. So is there any advice there of just like how do you create that enough space to give you a chance to start to unfold? I mean The the most valuable thing that happens as you fall.

34:55 is learning. And Even on the other side of failure. You've learned a shit ton. Like I always say, like Most

35:02 Important thing. to do in the falling phase and the risk taking land is to learn to embrace being a professional idiot, you know, basically being the one that shows up at the meeting and is like What are we talking about? Like what does that word mean? Because for a bunch of reasons. Number one, you can learn so much.

35:21 And again, even in the face of failure, no one can take away your learning. Do you know what I mean? But the other thing is that like Turns out That a lot of the questions in the world that you you're sitting in the meeting and you're like This is a dumb question. Like I'm gonna everyone's gonna think I'm an idiot, but then you get brave.

35:39 And you ask it. And it turns out it wasn't a dumb question. Do you know what I mean? Like Turns out that everyone had that question in their mind, but no one was brave enough to ask it. So From a skills perspective, again, regardless of outcome.

35:52 Being the person that sort of uh takes their learning in their own hands. uh learning no matter what and Learning to sort of like Ask those dumb questions. It's a superpower. I always say that like actually my superpower is being a professional moron because I'm the one that shows up in a room and is like, do we have goals? Like what what are we doing? What why are we talking about this? Why are we having this meeting? And most of the time it's actually what I was hired to do, which is bring clarity.

36:19 It's so funny. I just recorded a a podcast episode with a PM named uh Zevi. Who joined Wix and he had this thought. He's like a very young PM just getting started. And he's like, Okay, I need to be at ten X PM because that's what they expect of me. That's what everyone that is really good. That's how I think of it. Ten XPM.

36:36 And then he went into his first meeting. And he just failed. And he just felt so bad. He's like, I guess I'm not that ten X PM. They're all gonna see that. They're all gonna They think I'm terrible. And then he did another presentation a little bit later and

36:50 People were so impressed with how he uh learned and evolved and improved. And he realized that he needs to be not a ten X PM, but a ten X learner. And that's what people actually expect from someone, especially a junior person. Yeah.

37:05 Well and I was having a conversation last night with a friend of mine who has a senior in high school and I was like, What? What is the plan? Like what are we telling the senior in high school like to think about relative to their career, given everything that's going on with AI? And we talked about it a bunch, but What we both circled back to was this idea of soft skills. And that that actually like the only thing you can really anchor on right now is that, you know, teaching kids grit, teaching them hard work, teaching them learning, right? Like

37:35 learning how to learn, loving learning, being able to follow In in a world that's changing this fast. And and I say this inside of companies too, right? I always say like what you know today is way less valuable than what you can learn by tomorrow. If you're inside of a company where the growth curve is like this. What you know today is like irrelevant. Somebody once told me they re I'm sure this is a taster now, but they rewrote the entire code base of Google every eight years, which means that like if you're not learning, if you're not evolving then you become irrelevant and extinct. It's actually the whole sort of like underlying point of the Legos stuff is that like Evolution is

38:09 The way you stay on top. And I think that's More true today than it's ever been. And luckily AI is really good at helping us learn. Totally. So that's good. Thank you, AI. Um and this this actually comes up a bunch of the podcast asked a lot of

38:22 A I forward people what they're teaching their kids and Curiosity is one of the main things people talk a lot about just to like make them Help them develop curiosity about the world and Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I feel like I could be talking about this specific topic for a whole podcast episode, but I want to move on to a couple of other frameworks that you've developed.

38:39 One is something called a water line model. And another former colleague of yours said this is the most impact impactful thing that was that they've learned from you on their career. So talk about the waterline model. Okay. Yeah. Well, first of all, the waterline model is not mine. It's something it's from a some business book somewhere, but I actually learned it. So my first job out of college was leading wilderness trips. I led um 75 day wilderness trips in Patagonia and Alaska for a school called Knowles, the National Outdoor Leadership School. And Knowles basically teaches

39:10 Essentially leadership and communication skills to Students. Mostly I was mostly leading like college age kids. Um through wilderness expeditions. So by having to lead a group of your peers that you don't know. Anyway, the waterline model is something that we taught on Knolls and it's a really

39:27 Really helpful model for understanding how to diagnose. When something is not working on a team. And so I teach it inside of Glue Club and um I'll just quickly explain it. So basically the way to think about the waterline model is that a team is a boat. And it's a boat on an ocean trying to get somewhere.

39:45 Getting somewhere his goals, right? Where what are we trying to build or ship or Um do. And Essentially. That is going to be harder, easier based on whatever the shape of the ocean is, right? If it's really choppy, it's harder.

39:59 It's smooth and calm. It's gonna be easy to get to your goals. So the the water line basically asked the question, like what is going on under the water? what is going on that's making it harder or easier to get to your goals. And there's essentially four Things.

40:13 Underneath the water. And they are in a descending order. So the surface level is what's called structural things. And basically structural things. are like

40:23 Goal setting. Vision. uh roles, expectations, like kind of the structures you put in place to make a team and a company and a business make sense. Um that touch every single member of the team.

40:37 Right below that is something called dynamics, which is essentially like how the team works together. Um it's culture, it's decision making, it's how we resolve conflict. All the sort of like um interwoven. um pieces of how teams work together. And then below that is interpersonal, so basically relationships between two people.

40:58 And all the things that come with us being humans. And then the bottom is intrapersonal, meaning Within one person. Challenges and issues there. And the interesting thing about this model is that most people when we when something's going wrong on a team, a lot of times we always go to the bottom. We go to the people. We're like the people aren't getting along. That person's having a rough moment.

41:20 We go to the humans, but The rule with the waterline model, which is very memorable. Memorable. Is You snorkel?

41:28 Before you scuba. So Eighty percent of problems on Teams actually happen because of structural issues. Or dynamics issues. So when there are problems on your team, where you start is at the top. You start structural issues.

41:44 And one of my biggest things that I say all the time over and over again inside of Blue Cloud is your only goal as a manager if you do nothing else. Is clear roles. And clear expectations. That's it. Because honestly, like I've taken over a lot of teams in my life.

41:58 And almost always I show up. And it turns out that no one knows what their job is. And no one knows what success looks like. And if you can make those two things clear, which again is at the snorkel level. Um it will fix

42:10 you know, a huge percentage of other issues on a team. But the main thing is like where you start and just always sort of starting at that structural level or the dynamics level and not sort of immediately going to the people and and all that. Cause Yes, people cause all sorts of problems, but a lot of times they ha the problems are happening because they're existing inside of a structure that's confusing. Another very vivid metaphor. And just I love how it builds on it with a s

42:36 The snorkeling. Uh okay. So just to be super clear about this, the takeaway here is You have a problem with your team. But the company Many people think it's They jump to like the people are the problem. They're not good enough. They're not working hard enough.

42:50 really what you're saying is most often the issue is not the person, it's the situation. whether it's the structure of how they're set up to work or the dynamics amongst the people. And specifically what you're saying is that like the role maybe isn't clear. Or what success means. And uh for that role is not clear.

43:07 You know, every company I've worked with or advised like I often start with like what are the goals? And usually what you get back is Uh, not clear. Um and that in and of itself is a structural issue, right? How can someone show up and decide what they're gonna do with their day all day if the goals aren't clear if they don't actually know what the priorities are. And then it goes to like, okay, role, right? Like do I know what my job is? Do I know what number I'm was hired to own and drive.

43:33 Um, and then like, do I know what success looks like? How does my role tie to that overall goal that the company just literally right there. You got like probably eighty percent of problems inside of companies because this is the hard work of company building. Like It's the stuff that's not intuitive. How do you organize a group of people to know which direction to row, you know? Um And that equation again. I would say eighty percent of problems that I see, performance issues, like I always start with, does this person actually know what you expect of them?

44:02 If not. Go back to step one. Do you know what I mean? Clarify expectations. So the waterline model is just helpful for reminding us, like Start at the top. So what would you do there, say you're

44:12 A manager. You're having an issue with T member. Would you go and ask, Hey, let's just make sure we're aligned on Goals and roles. Is that is how you approach it, or is there a different approach? So a lot of times what I do is

44:25 Two sided. Right. So it's like Hey, tell me here's what I'm seeing. Um, and tell me what's going on for you. Like w do you know do you know XYZ? Do you know what tell me what you know when I when I take over a team. when I'm doing my sort of like listening tour. Part of what I'm asking is what do you think your job is? What do you what number were you hired to drive? Because what you'll find is often like

44:46 Their picture. is different than your picture. You think you've been clear. They somehow got, you know, you described an elephant and they spat out a tiger. Um, and that coming back to like, okay, no, we're building an elephant, you're in charge of the trunk. Um will You know, in some percentage of cases actually make a huge difference to the person's

45:05 work and time and performance. And you know, in plenty of cases it doesn't, but That's always where I would start because It's So often. um is just like a more fundamental problem that then would lead you to to look at other things across the team.

45:20 Um but yeah, that's I w I would say. Two way dialogue, um, but re clarifying roles and expectations, re describing The elephant over and over and over again. is one of the hardest parts about being a leader because you feel like a broken record, right? You feel like an idiot. You're like, I've said this 45 times. Turns out no one heard you the first forty three, and you have to you have to redescribe it.

45:40 in order for people to hear you and to re understand their sort of role and what they're doing. I love how you uh reframed the way I approached it by starting with here's what I'm seeing. What do you think? What uh what what do you think your role is? The very like nonviolent communication oriented, which is uh clear pattern on this podcast, just the power of that specific framework. Yeah, totally. Well

46:01 Like I said Work is about humans and it's the art of sort of like organizing humans to get something done and build something that's great greater than the sum of its parts. And that is an art of sort of the humanness in all of us. How do we get people to hear us? How do we get people aligned? Work for a lifetime.

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47:09 They'll even cover your DAF pay fees if you transfer your existing DAF over. That's GoFundMe dot com slash Lenny to start your giving fund. Okay, so let me actually follow this thread of the importance of goals and just being clear around this stuff. You have these uh six rules for creating clear goals and alignment on teams. Talk about these six rules. Yeah. Totally. I feel like there should be

47:32 Less than six, but where we're at. Um I would say at a high level, two things before I get to the six. One is that I definitely have a bone to pick with OKRs. I feel like it's It's obviously been a really helpful framework for Google and others. And a lot of times when I show up inside a company or I'm talking to a leader and I'm like, you know, what are your goals? What I get back is this like Spread sheet that has like a hundred lines and is feels like it's written in Greek and like I when I look at it, I'm like this this doesn't create clarity for anyone.

48:02 And It brings me back to sort of like what what is the point of goal? What why do we have them? And at the end of the day. Goals are a communication tool. That's what they are.

48:12 They are a communication tool designed To create clarity. To help people know. I'm gonna show up at my desk. What should I work on? What's the most important thing? And you're

48:20 A hundred line spreadshe doesn't help anybody. Um, and the second thing I would just say is like you really have to ask the question, what is right for me at my This company. And this stage, what is right for a seed stage company is not what is right for Yeah, a company that's

48:36 got an established business business and a clear go to market machine. So, you know, when I'm building in seed stage, I'm setting goals every two months in a very iterative way. When I have an established business, I can actually set annual goals, but Annual goals for early stage companies is just like a waste of time. So anyway. Um A lot of my goal setting stuff actually comes from Facebook.

48:55 Which I think was very, very good at this. So The first rule is It. No company needs more than three.

49:03 Company goals. And the point of company goals is to help people know what the most important things are. to success. Um so Facebook basically had three goals. For the entire time I was there.

49:16 It was five years. And we did, you know, six month goal setting. I think we did annual goal setting that ended up getting getting reset every six months, but whatever. So the three goals were this. There was growth, which was measured as monthly active users. That was the externally reported number, eventually, um MAUs. The second goal was engagement.

49:35 Uh, meaning how often do people come back and use the site? And the third was revenue. And We literally had three goals. For the five years that I was there.

49:45 If you can govern that business with three goals, you can govern literally any business with three goals. So no company needs more than three goals. The second thing is that one goal needs to win in a fight. So if I'm sitting down and asking how do I prioritize my time on a given day, I need to know what is the most important thing. You know, at Facebook, we had growth, right? And there's a lot of different ways you can add monthly active users to a social media site, including you can go buy a whole bunch of bots in Indonesia, and that would add to your MAU number.

50:14 But it would not add to your engagement number. And it was very clear for the entire time that I was there that engagement was the most important thing. Acquiring users that were going to use the site all the time, that's what drives revenue. It's also what drove, you know, sort of the heart of that site. Um, so if you had to prioritize something, you prioritized engagement. That goal one in the fight. The third I'll say is

50:36 I call it the explain it to me like I'm five goal. But like An intern that started on Monday should be able to look at your goals and understand them. And if they can't, then you are failing because they are not a communication tool that's effective. You have to be able to understand the goals. You have to explain the acronyms. You have to

50:56 have numbers that make sense to average people. Otherwise, again, it fails as a communication tool. The fourth one. Yeah. Uh actually I t I stole a phrase from Claire Hughes Johnson, who uh you've had on your podcast that wrote a book called Scaling people and in it she says this sentence that I love, which is strategy strategy should hurt.

51:19 And I you know, I my my role used to be like set non-goals, basically make it as clear what you're not gonna do as what you are gonna do, but strategy should hurt is a much better way to explain it to people, which is If you're not making trade offs that are painful. You are not actually helping people prioritize their time. Because the nature of work is that people will show up every day and do something.

51:40 And either you are very clear with them about what the priorities are or they're gonna prioritize for you. because they're gonna choose what they work on every day. And we see this so much with founders where they can't cut things off the list. They just have to have the ten goals. And I'm like, cool.

51:56 Six of these goals are not gonna get done. So either you pick which four it is, or other people are gonna pick for you. So strategy should hurt if your goal setting process is not painful. Then you're not Prioritizing heavily enough. Okay, ready? We're on number five.

52:11 Um, this is more of an organizational point, but it's really important for the waterline model too, which is that One goal has one owner. You have a number. That number has a name next to it. If you cannot do that work.

52:27 You haven't done the most important work. to actually make sure that these goals get accomplished. Um and it's organizational work and it's very painful. Um,'cause you know, sometimes it feels like oh, this person could own it or this. Maybe I'll just own it together. Two people owning a goal is no one owning a goal. One person owns the goal. Who is it?

52:45 It's not you as the CEO. It's someone that works for you. Um so uh one goal, one owner, and then the last Which Is the hardest. is that goals by themselves are not enough.

52:57 I've spent a lot of time with founders that are like, I did it. I set the goals. Why is why why not working? I don't understand. And I'm like, What did you do after you set the goals? And they're like, I don't know, I set the goals.

53:09 Goals. James Clear, who wrote Atomic Habits, has this really lovely sentence, which is uh winners and losers have the same goal. Goals by themselves are not enough. You have to have a process. by which you follow up on the goals and you hold people accountable to the goals and you learn from the goals because so much of goal setting, particularly

53:30 you know, if you're earlier in building your company is About learning from trying to do something. You set a goal, can we do it? How hard is it to move this number? You know, that is the learning. You might be wrong all the time, but you're learning. What it takes to move the number. Um, so the number the setting the goal by itself, not enough. Um, you have to build a process in the system to like actually learn from the goal. Wow.

53:53 This list is there's so much power in this list. It's such a sustainable No, I don't think it is because each of these has so much depth and power to them. That saves you so much headache and And just like wasted time and resources. Just like the idea of one owner, one goal, something I've personally discovered to have such power. Because and correct me if I'm missing something here, but just

54:17 If you feel like someone else may be doing the thing or feels like it's not just fully your responsibility. There's so much less energy and And just like mental I don't know. You just don't care as much about hitting that goal. If it's and if it's you. Yeah. If it's like Lenny, this goal is your goal and if you hit it. It's you've done it. If you don't you're you've you've done a bad job.

54:36 Like that's such motivating. So motivating. If it's like me and Molly. Okay, well we'll figure it out. It creates a flood of clarity that seeps down from the person too. And and you know, to go back to the waterline model, I would say so often you'll actually find companies that have set goals, but Mm. They everyone no one owns the goals. Everyone owns the goals. Multiple people own the goals. And it's like that you didn't actually get all the way to the answer, you know.

55:00 And I will say the the ownership thing is hard. Like it can feel Painful. Um but it's really important. You know, there's only one

55:09 Owner. Um, and that means that Um that person come hell or high water. owns that number. Yeah. The way we I described it Airbnb was just like someone asks someone's ass has to be on the line for this.

55:22 And and that just works. That's such a powerful lever to drive things to have one person responsible. Um The other's just this idea of um of uh strategy hurting. I love that. I love that phrase. I forgot I forgot Claire had that. Uh so true. So good.

55:37 Because the whole idea is you need to not do things. You need to decide what you're not like the whole strategy is A big part of it is what we are not doing. Yeah. Absolutely. And if you're not making painful choices, then you're not actually doing it. And this idea of three goals, so is that just like so do you go into a company and just like go through a checklist essentially of here's the six things I look at to tell me if you what where there's opportunity to improve?

55:58 When I work with founders and I see their goals, what I do I use it as a way to get to know the business and I'm just gonna be like literally like what is this? Like what are you trying to explain? And it I can usually through, you know, asking a lot of really dumb questions, which like I said, one of my superpowers. Um get them to explain to me. you know, the one sentence and the one number that they're actually trying to get across, but it it takes work. And that's part of, you know It's almost like easier to write the hundred line spreadsheet than it is to say, wait, what are the three drivers of this business?

56:31 Genuinely. Like What are they? Um, and how do they relate to each other? And and you know, there can be things underneath them, but there's three at the top that matter. Um so yeah, it's it's not a I'm not like a scientific person about it, but a lot of it is just by asking people to explain their businesses to me, you can basically find the drivers. And the story about Facebook having these

56:53 Same three goals for five years. Considering their success. You may think they're not as complicated as your business, but I am sh confident they are just as, if not more, complicated. Their marketplace social network, their ad business, just they're there's a lot going on. And if they can work with three goals, you can do that too.

57:12 Yeah. And to your point, it needs like if it's not hurting then Uh, you're doing something wrong. Yeah. I love how uh this is very much what I wanted this chat to be. It feels like every little segment is like its own could be its own podcast where we could talk about this for hours. So um

57:27 So I'm really excited how how this is going. Um Kinda moving on to another topic. You have Not necessarily rules, but um Rules of thumb. that you find really helpful for people to have in their head as they're dealing with change and scale and growth and all that kind of stuff. So let's just walk through that.

57:45 Yeah, so for for leaders that are that are leading through change and growth, like I um The list is probably long, but you know, I always say to people, don't come to me for like management one on one. I'm not the person to ask on like how to run the most effective. one on one that with your people. What What I think is not talked about enough is what it takes to manage and lead through change. Um and that is a very particular

58:12 Set of feelings. Um And the first thing, you know, I learned when someone makes you a manager or when you take a job as a leader inside a company, you really do feel like Like, oh, like who gave me this job, you know? And you sort of feel like you're supposed to know the answer to things. Like people come to you and ask questions and you're like I'm supp I'm supposed to know, right? I'm a leader. I am supposed to have answers and

58:36 I think particularly inside of rapid change and and scale and growth. It's really important to understand that your job as a manager and a leader is not to have all the answers. It is not to have all the answers. It is to get good at finding them. It is to get good at bringing people together to find the answers. And uh

58:55 That is hard because it requires saying, I don't know. Let's go figure it out a whole bunch. And it's scary as a leader to say, I don't know, because you think, oh gosh, people are gonna see through me. But you know, again, the more you travel in life, the more you realize that the most experienced leaders are the ones that say, I don't know, all the time. I think this is a good reminder of this Bob the Monster concept because hearing this Okay, I don't need to have all the answers as a leader. In real life, being in a meeting people are like, Hey Molly

59:22 What do you think of this? Like you're like, Oh shit, I should have a good answer. And so I think that's a good reminder of this idea of this Bob the Monster is gonna tell you, Oh, you don't know anything, you're not ready for this. You suck at this, you're gonna fail. They're regretting hiring you. Yeah, exactly. Everyone's gonna see through you. Imposter, imposter, imposter. Yeah, yeah. So just remembering there's this gonna be this part of your head and that's okay, it's there, but it doesn't matter. And these things are muscles, you know, like dealing with Bob as a muscle, right? Learning to like not react to all those things that attack you.

59:51 Um, but also learn like, oh, in this moment when someone asked me a question and I'm like Actually I should be like, but I don't actually know. Let's go. Who should we ask? Like how can we learn this? How can we explore this together? What do you think? Like those are all actually very powerful questions. And they're terrifying, you know, to particularly earlier in your career as a leader and a manager. Awesome. So yeah, so there's less than there's mm you no one expects you to have all the answers as a leader.

1:00:15 No. And it's and it's particularly in this world, right? The one that's changing as fast as it is, like Nobody nobody knows, you know? Nobody knows what. The answers are in a lot of cases the The war will be won by the people that are good exploring and figuring it out.

1:00:29 Um I love that phrase. So the second one is And everyone that has learned this has learned it the hard way. Do not promise things that you can't control. Right. It's so tempting.

1:00:43 Like particularly when you're hiring people to be like, Oh yeah, like Your onboarding will be smooth and calm and everything's clear and like we've figured it out. Let us tell you our vision and how obvious and clear and smart and blah blah. And then they show up and it's like oh Shit. You know what I mean? Like they there's no manual. No one knows what they're doing. It's all ambiguity and chaos, right? It's so easy when someone says, I wanna know that I'm gonna be your CMO forever to be like, Sure, you can be my CMO f You don't know that.

1:01:11 Do you know what I mean? Being really careful. with promises of things that are out of your control, like stability. or titles or never hiring over someone is like a flashing red light, because there is literally no faster way to demoralize high performers than going back on a promise. Right.

1:01:29 Um you everyone that has been through it knows that feeling of like you I think they told me this when I joined. And then they don't do it, and you're like, Well, fuck this place, you know? So no faster way to demoralize people. Or to hire the wrong people than promising things that are actually out of your control. Being honest and upfront about who you are. as a company, about what you're able to promise. Like all of that is actually very hard work. But it's so important because so much is out of your control. And you need to hire people that are cool with that.

1:02:01 Love that. Such a I I ha I I learned this the hard way once. I had uh one of my early projects. I uh We were late.

1:02:09 And uh had a product was just so pissed. He's like,'Cause I've been telling the CO it's gonna be on time,'cause you've been telling me it's gonna be on time. And it wasn't. And why didn't you tell me that? And he's and I was just like, Okay, it'll never happen again. And he's like, You can't don't tell me that,'cause that's not true. That may not you can't guarantee that.

1:02:27 And so that taught me that lesson of just like, Yeah, you're right. Like you want to say that. Like it's feels so good. Okay, this will never happen again. But it just gets a little bit more. You can't. And they know they they know you can't promise things like that. Yeah. Uh sorry, I'm gonna quote Claire Hughes Johnson again, but she has this really fun phrase that she said in a talk at Glue Club that I've now latched onto and stolen from her, which is she was like, promises like that are like letter bombs that you mail yourself that are gonna explode in your face in like a year.

1:02:56 And I just think this is the perfect metaphor. It's'cause it's like short term pain, right? Like you wanna make this person feel good right now. So you like promise them something, but in one year, you're gonna make them feel Terrible. So don't do it. Great advice. All right, keep going. Yeah. Um So again, could probably go on the like topic of what it takes to manage and lead forever inside this stuff, but I'll give you um Two more that I yell about a lot in Glue Club. The first is that

1:03:24 Um, we spent huge amounts of time talking about hiring, like How do you get good at hiring? Like who like how do I what's the right interview? How do I find the right people? Firing people is as important As hiring people. Getting good at identifying when someone does not belong or someone is not gonna work out is actually a skill.

1:03:42 And being good at it as a company and as a leader. is as important as identifying the right talent. Because

1:03:50 Eventually, if you're not good at firing people, what you have is essentially barnacles on a ship. Really going for it with the ship metaphor. Anyway, so like Um The you know, it's drag. Um, people that are sitting around not sort of pushing the team forward. So It's painful and it's horrible'cause it is human, right? But but

1:04:10 When someone doesn't fit you actually no one is right. all the time when it comes to hiring. I actually say most people are wrong half the time. Like the best people in the world at hiring will tell you they have about a fifty percent average on terms of being right. That means Half the hires don't work out. That means Half the time. You're gonna need to fire the person.

1:04:28 So it is it's such an important skill to get good at, particularly when you're going through a lot of change. And the last one. Is Humans are messy and it's very emotional. And when you're a leader Particularly if you have any kind of

1:04:44 Mm. Enigram too, or just l if you like to make people happy and you wanna be liked. It can be so hard to lead Teams because um you get tangled in the people, right? Firing people is a painful experience. Reorganizing things, layering people, all these things are emotionally painful for the people and they're emotionally painful for you as a manager. But my mantra that almost always

1:05:07 Leads. in a in the best direction is serve the business, not the people. Meaning Everyone is better off if this company is wildly successful. Everyone looks smart and you know uh makes lots of money or whatever if this company grows and

1:05:24 Um does what we all dream it can. So at the end of the day, the best decisions, the ones that are always going to be right, are the ones that are like, how do we make the how do we do the right thing for this business? And it it also helps in political situations, right? Like someone's acting weird or their bob is raging all over the The company like Technically.

1:05:42 Everyone has the same goal. The goal is to build the biggest business possible. That's the answer. The answer is always like, what's the right thing for the business? And the people stuff can fall away when you actually focus on like what's the right thing for the business.

1:05:55 A really useful tool to do that that I learned from my manager. is to think about when you're trying to decide w like whether to fire someone or change a project, even though it's gonna upset someone, is uh is to say, okay. If there were no emotions involved.

1:06:10 If this person had no negative reaction to this. What would I do? Totally. And then

1:06:17 That's the thing you should do. And then you just do it. And then the question is how do I communicate this to them? Where they're Least. Pain. Uh you know, they their pain is the l is the lowest, essentially. In the kindest way possible. In the kindest way possible. And

1:06:29 Because To your point, if you optimize for the other thing if make your people feel good, like it everything just falls apart. Like everything they're gonna suffer even more. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Direct is kind. Um and it you know

1:06:43 It Feels like kind or really honestly easy to avoid these things or to work around them or to not But at the end of the day it it's basically just a drag, right? The Barnacle thing, like it drags on your company, on your time, on your energy, et cetera. Yeah. But again, very hard to do in real life.

1:07:01 To do the thing that's hard and makes you know Cause Someone to be sad and and upset and frustrated and And so hard and All these things are muffles. You know, you get better at they don't become easy. It's not like anybody like oh it's a live I enjoy firing people. No. But you you recognize it faster and you are like oh I need to go do this, you know? And that is actually

1:07:24 I it's a practice. Uh and something that you need to practice to sort of become the kind of leader that leads these like long enduring companies. Yeah. And this tool of Thinking, asking what would I do if there were no emotions involved and this person wouldn't be upset.

1:07:38 It helps you like realize, okay, I see. This actually doesn't make sense to just Do it the easy way right now,'cause it doesn't make sense. Yeah, it strips away. Strips away the he the emotions.

1:07:49 Mm-hmm. Something else I wanted to make sure we spent a little time on is you have another tidbit along these lines, which is around Putting most of your energy into high performers versus spending all your time people that need help. Talk about that. You know, as a leader, as a manager, like you you're running these teams and someone's struggling. Um And it's very easy.

1:08:11 to get dragged into that and to to sort of end up spending a huge amount of energy on it. But High performers are actually the future of your company. And If you think about it and if you've spent time on it, um Those are the folks where if you invest your time and energy in them, you're gonna get the sort of like 10x return that people talk about all the time.

1:08:31 In Silicon Valley, but Um witnessed is that most people have like a high performer and they just like leave them alone. They're like, that person's doing well. So I'm just gonna l let them do their thing. And what what I do when I have a high performer, that's like my favorite thing in the world, is

1:08:49 invest time and energy in them and basically build a whole system of working with them that is designed to kind of draw out potential. Um And I would say there's there's two two things here. One is it's really important to realize that like our tendency is to actually spend time on low performers and it is not a good use of your time. See.

1:09:08 the point about firing people. But the other thing is that actively investing in and developing high performers is something that's important to get good at as a leader. Because that is how you kind of create these little rocket ships that end up, you know you'll manage someone who's just like a project manager and all of a sudden they're running a whole function inside the company eventually, but it's because you took time and energy to invest in them. And my basic way of doing that, not to like I I could go, I could spend a long time on this, but I would just say is I run experiments. I basically develop a theory about someone. I think this person is capable of this kind of thing.

1:09:41 And then piece by piece, it doesn't have to be like a whole job or whole project. You can just be like uh you know an incremental experiment. I'm gonna see if they can do this without you know, with less guidance or support from me. I'm gonna give them a bigger project. I'm gonna give them something with more visibility. I'm gonna manage them less, oversee them less, whatever. Um, all of those are experiments to basically test your theory and deepen your theory in terms of like

1:10:05 This person's potential and their ability to help the company. And you're basically, for me, what I'm doing is kind of deeply getting to know that person and then trying to pair them. with company needs. What do we need? What where where do we kind of like Um You know, this person's great at zebra farming, where do we need zebra farming? You know, so like how do I get them working on bigger and bigger and more and more critical things?

1:10:27 And To be honest, this is what people have done for me. Like You know, at Facebook in particular, I I benefited from people being like, ooh. Like, come help me with this thing. They saw potential in me and they asked me to help with something.

1:10:40 Um and it unlocked a huge amount for me. And so it's it it is such a powerful tool for getting more out of people that might be a little bit stuck if you leave them. in this box, but if you start to expand the box, you can see you can really unlock people. Okay, so speaking of high performers, you've worked with uh many very high performing founder COs. You worked

1:11:01 Really closely with Zuck. with Cheryl Sandberg, with Larry and Sergey Google. with Brett Taylor, who I just like Just like you're trying to read his resume it's like it takes like three lines of things he's done in over the course of his career.

1:11:15 And so I just want to spend a little time on What are s some things you've learned? Like maybe a few things you've learned from them, that group. that you find yourself sharing with other people Most

1:11:26 That list is very long, but I'll give you A couple. The first one that I think is kind of counterintuitive. Is Um so I said I worked at

1:11:39 Facebook. I I worked on culture. Which is one of those words that doesn't really mean anything. So I define it as sort of like the way that the way we do things, uh, around here. Um And I thought my job was

1:11:52 To like Shape the culture. I thought it was to like push the culture. And the most humbling lesson I learned is Eighty percent of the culture of a company is literally defined by the personality of the founder. Like

1:12:07 Facebook is Mark. Google? It's Larry and Sergey. Like Google, when I was there, felt like It felt like a university, you know, it's where ideas are more important in a lot of ways than what's shipped and

1:12:19 It's like, you know, there's the a campus and they basically want to be able to live there when I was there. You know, it was it was designed to basically be a uh Two PhD students paradise. Facebook felt like Yeah. nineteen year old hacker's dorm room when I was there. Like that and it was you know, shipping above all in

1:12:36 All else and that it just it seeped. With Mark's DNA. And um You know, I spent Ages trying to create various changes inside the company or trying to kind of push a point.

1:12:51 Um, and Merc would say like literally one thing in an all hands, and it was like somebody threw a boulder into the pond. So Our job as operators or as leaders around founders is to help articulate. The culture? that they're creating and to help. you know, extend it. Um

1:13:07 uh my version of founder mode, which I know you've spent some time on on this podcast is Your job is to build a company that would make A decision the way the founder would when they're not in the room. Right. That is the work of building a company around a founder, but your job is not to shape culture.

1:13:23 Um that is mostly defined by the literal personality strengths and weaknesses of the person at the top. And that's been true of Mark and it's been true of Brett. Um, everywhere I go. That's who it is. You don't need a consulting firm to tell you just go do a personality diagnosis on your founder. Um, and the weaknesses thing is real, you know, like I've seen I've seen and and uh watched friends like Try to ship a set of values at a company where and it just doesn't match who the founder is. You say move fast and break things or whatever your version of that is, and your founder loves ambiguity and is perfectly happy with not making decisions, all that leads to is cultural dissonance.

1:14:01 Um you know, it leads to people being like Wait what? I thought we said, you know, we care about moving fast and making making aggressive decisions and it turns out you know, so Being really careful about what you say because what people actually feel when it comes to culture is what you do. Um and how you act.

1:14:17 Every day. That is you can never write anything down. And you will still have a culture. It will be created through the actions and the decisions that you make and that your founder makes. So that would be a huge one. Let me spend a little more time on this'cause this is so good. So all this advice on culture.

1:14:32 Um and it's it feels so true. So Tip one there is just it you You can't really change the culture. Maybe there's like a little bit on the edges you could adjust, it will come down and trickle down from the the founder. CEO probably mostly, but just the founders in general. Then CEO, founder, CEO is probably the single biggest.

1:14:52 Co founder is like It depends. Uh a lot on the company. Like I think I think Stripe, you know, is probably very much like Patrick and John, you know, but it's not every co founder that has that level of power no. Awesome. And then the the way you describe culture, it's I think it's the way Seth Godin talks about it too, who's also been on the podcast. How cool is that? He uh he said culture is and the way you said, um culture is the way we do things around here. Yeah.

1:15:14 That's that that's what culture is is how we is just like that's how people describe your culture as the way we do things around here. Yeah. I um You know, I like random culture, whatever the hell that means at Facebook for a hot second. I literally haven't done a values exercise since. And it sounds crazy, right?'Cause like in theory I like know how to do this stuff. I don't really know how to do this stuff, but

1:15:34 For me the point is process and systems and how do we make decisions. Like that's where culture actually lives. It is what you do, it's how you hire, it's how you fire, it's who you don't hire. It's all of those decisions. That is culture. So whenever I'm working with a company or building a company, that's what I'm focused on, not on like what's the shiny word that we're putting on the wall. You know what I mean? Yeah. So the way you're describing is it's as you said, it's it's what you do, it's not what you say. Yeah. Awesome.

1:16:00 Okay. Uh keep going. Okay. Okay, I'll give you two more that are helpful. Um The this one is marked with like a word classic, but he has this like very strong feeling that Uh people don't escalate enough.

1:16:15 And he was like very adamant about it at Facebook and he brought it to CI too, where he was like Escalation is a tool. And he's like, people get stuck. You know, they get stuck with two people with equal power trying to solve a problem. You can spend so much time. Bashing heads. going back and forth. And actually what you just need to do is go up.

1:16:34 Right. You need to go. The problem is that we think of escalation as like I'm A and B and I are disagreeing. And so I'm gonna go up to C and tell on B, right? Like I'm gonna go tattle to the teacher. That is not what escalation is. What escalation is is We we disagree. Neither one of us has enough power to make this decision. Let's go to someone who does. My my boss, my boss's boss, wherever it is.

1:16:59 As soon as you are stuck. Escalate. Go together. Go make your case to whoever it is, go together up. That is unlocking, right? It's

1:17:10 saving you a whole bunch of time. And it's something that I've found as I've worked with Companies and leaders in Clue Club, like it's not a muscle that's very comfortable for people, but it's it's so smart. And you know, Mark has a lot of these, but like That one I really took away because again, I think so many people think of escalation as bad, like a failure, like I failed, so I had to escalate. No, it's a tool. It's what management is for. Like they're there to unblock you. Let them unblock you. Stop like Arguing over something you can't decide.

1:17:36 And they'll be so happy knowing you did not waste a week debating this and and just arguing and just looking at data. It's like okay, I can just tell you exactly what we should do. Let's go do that. Exactly. You lack contacts or you lack power. And then the last one actually is from Cheryl Sandberg, who um I learned an enormous amount from huge. It was like going to business school without going to business school or working with her. But um Uh, I say it a lot right now, so I'm gonna say it on your podcast so maybe some people will hear me.

1:18:05 Um Growing more than one hundred percent. Every year. І за ба.

1:18:13 A hundred per the happiest growth rate. is fifty percent. A hundred percent. is manageable. Anything more than doubling and you are signing yourself up for a world of pain.

1:18:26 And I have seen this over and over and over again. I had to scream way louder about it five years ago than I do now, because we've been through collectively a lot of pain and a lot of layoffs. And you know, obviously this. The combination of like twenty twenty one and then AI has led us to sort of talk about unit economics and Um, scaling with tools, not people, but I still see companies and I'm still talking to founders that are like, Yeah, we're gonna. you know, we're fifty people, we're gonna be a hundred and fifty people next year. And I'm like, Could you

1:18:56 A hundred people. You know. But here's what basically happens if you grow up more than a hundred percent, which is You're growing too fast. to de-dupe all the issues. So like you somebody posts this role, it actually turns out that that role is also being hired for on this other team. So you're hiring two people

1:19:15 who more or less have the same job description and are assigned to the same number or the same problem, but nobody talk to each other. And those two people both show up and they're like, I am doing this. And the person's like, Wait, I thought I was doing that. Anyway, so then you've got all this conf and think about all the time and all the energy and all the money that goes into deduping that. If you slow down, if you hire for quality and for real need versus sort of the panic hiring, whatever your sales model spits out or whatever. Um, you'll actually find leverage. You find, oh, I didn't need that person, or I didn't need this whole team, or I didn't need this whole function, or I can wait for that. Um so slow down.

1:19:51 And again, these are all just guidelines in terms of like the fifty percent is happy and a hundred percent is manageable, but like Having seen enough of this, I can tell you like these are good rules and you should pay attention to them. And sometimes you're like, I have to double or I have to more than double or have to triple or whatever. I'm like, okay, just ask a whole lot of questions. as you open roles. Ask a whole lot of questions as you hire because you will find Duplication, you will find chaos coming in the front door. More people?

1:20:17 Does not actually make you faster. Do you know what I mean? We think it does. It does not. It makes it harder. It makes it harder to get work done. It makes it slower. So you should be scared of adding people, not like, oh, this is the answer to all my problems. Amazing. And just to be clear, you're talking about The growth of the the company.

1:20:31 Um so doubling uh in a year, bad idea. Like it It's possible, but you're saying it's gonna be very hard and painful and and probably a bad a really bad idea. Yeah, more than doubling head camp double. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Please feel free to do whatever you want with your business. Just the device. I just this is top of mind'cause I just had the interview with Matt McGinnis, but so much of what he talked about is is this resonates with what you're talking about.

1:20:56 He talked a lot about under resourcing your team. Totally. leads to much better outcomes because people don't work on the lower priority stuff. They focus on only high priority stuff. Yeah. Um And the other is this idea of escalating. He uh talked a lot about that. Just like escalation is good. Tell me when there's something I can help with, please. I'm here waiting constantly to help. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. Amazing.

1:21:16 So f maybe for a final question. Uh One of your former colleagues, Eric Antonow, who's just like this epic dude that few people know about and I've chatted with over the last few months,'cause he knows so many people that come on this podcast. He's a former Facebook person, I would open AI. He I asked him about what I should ask you about, and he told me something really insightful about you.

1:21:38 He said that you had this really massive growth spurt at Facebook. Which you shared and talked about. And then after you're leaving You had this like huge ambition to become COO CO become this huge big deal boss person just like take over the world.

1:21:53 And then he noticed your ambitions significantly Pivot. To kind of working on community building and helping people with their careers and you turn down really big C level role opportunities. And the way he described it is you you were a dog that once thought you were a cat.

1:22:09 And The other metaphor is you change from A C current to D C current, which I don't know exactly. What that means, but um So does this resonate and if so, just what what happened there?

1:22:22 Eric is actually better at metaphors than I am. Uh and I regularly rip his metaphors. But yes, Eric Eric Ant's now the least well known but most brilliant person in my life. Um Yeah. So Somebody I w I gave a talk uh at a company recently and

1:22:40 Somebody asked the question, what's something you've changed your mind about? And I was like woof. Um but I actually talked about this because so I ha I'm My brain is like developing this model that is not done yet. But it's basically this idea that like Everybody has sort of a proving phase to their career.

1:22:59 Where you're like proving To yourself. And probably to your parents and some other people, you know. that you're like good at stuff. You're like I'm I'm gonna pr I'm gonna prove You know, and and

1:23:10 It's an important phase because you're you need to learn, you know, all the stuff we talked about. You need to learn what you're good at. You need to learn that you are good at things and that people should hire you for things and What are those things? Um But part of that phase is also kind of like doing what you think matters, like what you think You should do?

1:23:28 You know, family programming or career books tell you this is what you should do, titles and and all that stuff. And then I think everybody has a moment. And I think this moment varies wildly in terms of when it hits people.

1:23:45 Where you hit some sort of Waller. I don't know what it is. Speed bump something. And the world forces you to say Okay.

1:23:55 I've proven myself. And I'm good at this thing. What do I want to do with it? You know? And for me, like I spent, you know, ten or fifteen years

1:24:05 proving to myself and to others that I was really good. Um at this thing, you know, basically working with brilliant founders to help bring their vision to life. That's what you should hire me to do, right? That's what I was known for and It turned out that that wasn't what I love doing anymore.

1:24:23 And It was really, really hard. To walk away from because there was a lot of shoulds. It was like you should take this job with this fancy title. People are gonna think you're so cool. And you know, you get to the like I call it a LinkedIn crash where you're like really excited to post the job on LinkedIn, but you're deeply unexcited about doing the job. Um, so you have all these LinkedIn crushes and you're like

1:24:45 Um And I sort of vividly remember this one job that I turned down where I had to go for many walks. And what I was repeating over and over again to myself was What does this get you that you don't already have? What does this get you that you don't already have?

1:25:04 And I think for me it was this realization that these things that fed me early in my career just didn't feed me anymore. That I didn't get joy and excitement out of you know, doing these jobs anymore. Um And I wasn't scared.

1:25:19 Uh so It led me to actually on a very long windy journey, a founder journey, even though I have trouble with that title, just like the influencer title. Um To figure out what I wanted to build. And you know, what I would have told you I wanted to build three years ago is actually not what I'm doing today.

1:25:37 Um But through a lot of really fun experiments and a journey that never ends. What I've discovered is that what I love doing Is building Safe spaces.

1:25:49 For leaders. To learn and grow. Um but also to find Sanity and connection in a world that's kind of insane. Whether it's You know

1:25:59 working in a startup or or some other kind of insanity. Um but that that feed me and that there's nothing I love more than that. And I could not have told you that three years ago. But it was to Eric's point, it really took a lot of work to switch currents or switch myself from a dog to a cat or whatever his metaphor is. Um and I think it's You know.

1:26:22 It's the work of it's ongoing work. Um but it it It's that thing of like what do I want? Versus what? Do I think people expect of me? There's so much depth there. This could be another entire podcast conversation talking through this

1:26:37 Journey. But I'm gonna close with a a note from your uh partner, Sarah. She told me that she has the sticker on her notebook with three pieces of advice that you gave her when she started at OpenAI. Get to know your customer, they have the answer. Be patient because everything is gonna change.

1:26:56 And just keep trying. So Just as a Final question, is there anything along those lines that you think might be helpful for people to hear? Or is there anything else you want to share or leave listeners with?

1:27:07 Part of what I think is so important to realize. inside of scaling and changing companies and You know, the world is like Some things will always be true. And part of what I was saying to Sarah in the like

1:27:23 get to know the customer, they have the answer is like Whatever bullshit is going on around you and whatever walls and ceiling are being rearranged, you know, this week. The customer is never gonna change. That's a thing that will never change. And I think finding those like immovable objects. those compasses in the face of a storm, you know, which Being inside of a scaling company.

1:27:45 In a startup like feels like a tornado, you know. Um, and I think open AI is. Extra special on that front. Um you have to find These guiding lights.

1:27:56 that get you through that storm and I think Um, it's sort of the same thing as like serve the business, not the people. Like what are the things that will always be true? We are here to do this. We are here to do you know, we are here to serve the customer. And then the other piece of the the sort of like

1:28:11 The three things that she wrote down is like I think that we as humans We seek stability, you know, like our brains like would like things to stop changing. We would like things to stay the same. And That is just not a reality. inside of companies that are growing and changing as fast as open AI or

1:28:32 you know, a lot of the companies today that are being built. So actually you need to start to expect instability. You need to start to like Just assume things are gonna change. Assume you're gonna have a new boss in six months, right? I talk about this a lot when I talk to folks at OpenAI. Like you need to stop expecting that anything's gonna be the same in six months or a year. Like, You will have a different job. You will have a different boss. How do you prepare for that?

1:28:56 Do you know what I mean? How do you almost see the instability as stability because it's the only thing that is definitely going to be true. And part of that is to just keep going. You know what I mean? To just find these these lights and these compasses or Whatever metaphor sticks with you and focus on those. Because

1:29:13 Whatever. is happening around you. Like you just gotta keep moving forward and keep learning as much as you can because that's the real opportunity. Like Whatever happens to the company, however successful it is, like all that you take away from it, I always say all that you take away from it. Is people.

1:29:29 that like working with you and want to work with you again and what you learned. That's it. You might hopefully take a bunch of money, but you might not. So like People? And what you learned. That's it.

1:29:39 Focus on that. Mm. It's all about the friends you made along the way. Oh man. Molly, I feel like uh we've gone for so long and uh we've just scratched the surface. Uh I'd love to have you back to go deeper on a lot of this stuff.

1:29:53 I'm gonna skip the lightning round because we've gone long and I wanna keep people from having to listen to more. So I'm just gonna end with what are um What should people know about what you're working on? Where can people go find you online? And how can listeners be useful to you? You can find me on LinkedIn and you can find me on Substack. I have a Substack called lessons that I'm slowly trying to turn into a community where we can talk about things, the real stuff. Um And you can find me at Glue Club, uh, which if you're a leader inside of one of these

1:30:22 Crazy companies that's changing all the time. We we can be a great home for you. What's the Ul there, just for folks that check out. It's glue club dot com. Glue D L U E. G L U E S. C L U B dot com. Great. Yeah. Exactly.

1:30:35 And Uh in terms of people What people can do to be useful to me.

1:30:42 I love uh helping people helping leaders with problems. Like I Um I really get a lot of energy out of unsticking people and And helping people feel supported and seen and helping them grow.

1:30:57 Um, I do that through Glue Club. So if you're a leader that feels like you want a some sanity and some support in the face of whatever tornado you're in. That's a great place to come. But the the same is true of Substack. So if Blue Club isn't for you, like come on over to Substack. I've opened up a bunch of channels to just like Talk stuff, listen to people's problems, answer questions, because I love helping people. And I think it's a complicated moment right now to be a leader and to figure out. Um which way is up. So

1:31:23 Coming over. Amazing. Molly, thank you so much for being here. Thank you, Lenny. This was really fun. Bye everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app.

1:31:39 Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show. at Lenny's podcast dot com. See you in the next episode.

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