The most successful AI company you’ve never heard of | Qasar Younis

0:00 You decided to join Twitter recently, put out your first tweet, Mark Andreessen quo tweeted it and said, This is the best AI CO nobody knows. Our best work is done alone and quietly. Every minute you're writing something for public consumption, you're not focusing Your very limited time that you have on your customers and your product you're building a lot of the future that we're gonna be living in. What does the next couple years look like? Us solving some of these impossible problems like cancer. Are directly gonna be related to this AI boom. Net suffering in humanity overall should go down significantly. A thread that has emerged on this podcast is that AI is coming just in time to save us. The real impact of AI in the next five to ten years really is gonna be in farming, mining, construction. These industries, they need Need autonomy and it couldn't come soon enough. If you look at farmers, the average age of a farmer is in their late 50s. What does that mean in 10 years from now? There's a lot of anxiety about what AI is gonna do to the world. The core root of fear is misunderstanding. If you at home are very anxious about AI, the best thing that you can do is spend time to understand. and you will quickly the limitations. Get to know it, then actively make the technology be used for good.

1:15 Today my guest is Casser Yunis, co-founder and CEO of Applied Intuition. You've probably never heard of Castor or applied intuition. This is the most important under the radar AI company and CEO that I've ever come across. It's a fifteen billion dollar company that has been growing quietly over the last decade. What they do is they add AI to vehicles.

1:36 Like cars, tractors, planes, submarines, mining rigs, and a lot more, eighteen out of the top twenty automakers are customers, as well as the biggest global construction, mining, and trucking companies. Also the Department of Defense. They're basically Waymo or Tesla, but without the hardware. Casser himself was born on a farm in Pakistan. Grew up in Detroit, started his career as an engineer at GM, and then at Bosch.

2:01 He then went on to start a couple companies before starting applied intuition. I love everything about this episode and I am so excited to bring it to you. Don't forget to check out Lenny'sProductFast.com for an incredible set of deals available exclusively to Lenny's newsletter subscribers. Let's get into it after a short word from our wonderful sponsors. This episode is brought to you by Omni.

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3:56 Santa makes it automatic. Get one thousand dollars off at banta.com slash line. Thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me. You're basically building

4:12 uh a lot of the future that we're gonna be living in and people may not even realize this. And then kinda there's two sides to this. On the one side Let me ask you this question. If things go really well. What does the next couple of years look like for people with the emergence of AI with physical AI?

4:26 What are what are what's a vision of the future? Let me take the broader AI. Point and then the the the micro uh the more uh specific one on physical AI. Macro I I think Think about this like the industrial revolution, right? So if you're sitting, let's say in the late eighteen hundreds

4:43 There's a lot of you know, we can focus on a lot of bad things that happened because the industrial revolution, right? You have child labor and you have monopolies emerging and you have abuse of, you know, your your wars end up happening. Uh but there's also it's an almost Almost unimaginable. present without the

5:01 values and w without the without the kind of benefits we got out of the industrial revolution, which is broader access to healthcare like we've never seen before. Bro like Access to goods, material goods, things like we take for granted, like heating and cooling your home. There there's this uh there there's this great um YouTube kind of channel that focuses on POW letters. From German

5:25 who are seeing America in the early forties and they're writing letters back to Germany. about what they're seeing as they're basically, you know, prisoners of war. And they're kind of blown away that the towns that they roll by in these trains as they're going to their POW camps are all lit up. Or that there's cars everywhere.

5:44 Eighty percent of German towns in World War Two did not have electricity, and that's kind of a mind bending kind of thing, because we just assume all this stuff all this technology is you know, uh equally distributed. So the positive version is these things that we Let's say folks who are uh wealthy or folks who have access to technology.

6:06 These things everybody has access to. The the the fact like simply having somebody who's a coach to you. And having that. Coach, very specifically to you, not a generic you know, chat GPT that's giving fairly generic answers. I think that's a very powerful thing. I think us solving some of these impossible problems

6:25 Like cancer. are directly gonna be related. to this AI boom. Uh so I think net suffering in humanity, I think just like the industrial revolution Overall.

6:36 should go down and should go down significantly. And I'm a fundamental optimist in that view, that technology will bring that that that uh that that positivity. In physical AI specifically Again, you know, when you when you have things like your Uh, you have your own car and you have the ability you have your limbs and you have your your senses and you can drive. You take these kind of things for granted. You jump in your car and you go to the store. Uh

6:59 for somebody who maybe's disabled or somebody who doesn't have the money to afford a vehicle. access to mobility that's nearly free. Or is free is a big deal. And that like simple example of making self driving cars free for everybody and how that would change The planet.

7:17 You live in Rwanda and you are Two hours from the nearest hospital. That matters. That's in a very, very true way. And so I think a l a lot of let's say the negativity around AI comes from people who, frankly speaking, are living in a very, very

7:34 good existence. And when you live on the other edge of society Yes, and I'm not like some naive person who thinks that there's no downsides of technology. We we can discuss that. But I I I just see there's a l a lot more positive. So when you ask that question

7:49 What's the next Forget three to five years, what's the next twenty years? These things that we take for gr uh for granted that are bad. Uh suddenly or not. There. Uh and I think I think certain diseases, uh certain in uh uh accessibility to

8:05 Basic. uh you know, uh services. suddenly start going away. One last example that is You take Just the fact that you can message people basically for free.

8:16 Yeah. Like this is not the norm. We came from Pakistan. We couldn't even communicate back to Bakstan because the long distance you know, was so expensive and so is handwritten letter. Today you can basically contact anybody on the planet basically for free.

8:31 There's obvious downsides for that. But there there's a lots of upsides for that, which is being in touch with people that you care about and you love. Basically for free. And so I think AI has the ability to Bring this abundance. to many, many more people um at a near free uh you know fear free cost.

8:50 On the flip of this, as you There's a lot of there's a lot of anxiety about What AI is gonna do to the world to jobs. uh robots. They're like these videos coming out of China with these robots with nunchucks.

9:03 Uh like the stock market. I I feel you know what? I feel the Nunchuck Union. Is up at arms with that. How dare they? Yeah. But it's you know, it's scary and the you know, the market's reacting more and more to the just like, Oh wow, these companies are maybe not gonna survive long term.

9:20 Uh Again, being at the s the center of this and and building a lot of this m the stuff that'll get us there. How do you How do you envision that couple of years playing out? Like are you optimistic? What keeps you optimistic? Any advice?

9:32 to people that to help them kind of stay You know, calm through this period. So the two separate things. Anxiety around uh technic and then the And public investors reacting to specific stocks. They've had we have to separate those things. So let's talk about them separately. On the first one You know, uh

9:50 the the the core root of fear is is misunderstanding. And I think the if you at home are very anxious about the impact of AI in some variant on your own job, the best thing that you can do is Spend time to understand it. And you will quickly see

10:07 the limitations. videos on uh YouTube which are like, you know, trying to get Gemini to understand what a cup is. By just holding it upside down and it like really str then to do it with, you know, chat GBT. So it's like if the if the revolution is coming, you know

10:25 the AI overlords have to first understand like the top and bottom of a cup. And so you realize that You can see the video of nunchuck wielding humanoids which are pre-programmed and that cost fifteen million dollars to do that video. Um Yeah, that that is true. It's not it's not fake. I'm not I'm not implying it's fake, but it's also not what your brain kind of fills in the gaps.

10:48 You see nun check robots and you just feel like well the gap but you know this these are Sentient beings that are at their own volition going. Rather than it's a bunch of motors that have been programmed to do a certain thing. If you really want to be impressed, you go to a car factory.

11:02 And it's we've been doing that for twenty five years. We have very, very advanced robots moving extremely fast to build things. And Why are we don't we have anxiety about the car factory, but we have anxiety about the nunchuck robots is because the human being doesn't Like that gap, we understand the gap of a you know, of a welding robot. You say, Oh, okay, that's a robot, it's been programmed to make Dweld.

11:26 But we don't know the technology we as just as an individual human being living in you know in the world. You don't know how that robot was made to do that nunchuck thing. And so you substitute that with anxiety and fear. And so I would really implore you to you know, kind of learn more about the technology and you start seeing the edges. Now does that take away

11:46 from the most fundamental thing that you're getting at the string that you're pulling at. Which is Like is society going to be fundamentally harmed, um, and is this you know net net bad for society? I think in any Technical shift. The emergence of WhatsApp.

12:02 This is a Example. There are people who are damaged by that. Literally companies that go away. but also humans who are damaged by the advent of that technology. And so I think

12:13 as members of society and as leaders in society. We can we can kind of move that funnel in whichever way. You know, technology first remove the word AI. Yeah, it's such a like emotional word. Because it

12:28 It's wrapped in these things you don't know. And so that fear then kind of deforms. So let's just say Technology. You know, so the the so so I think it's it's up to us to recognize this technology can be used for good and technology can be used for bad.

12:44 And I think that's where really the the focus is. So get to know it. And then Actively make the technology be used for good. uh as a participant, whether you're founder or all the way as as a as an individual, you know, employee or citizen of a large company. Then on the second part of the question about, you know, public investors and stuff, this is my I don't have any, you know, particular research on this, but this is what my guess is what's actually happened. Uh beyond being an engineer, which is maybe my my core uh Identity for the lack of a better word.

13:14 Um I was also I did an MDA at Harvard and so That was the first time that this Uh, let's say d dean. I didn't come from very uh you know uh very uh very kind of wealthy upbringing. This is the first time when I went to Harvard I saw Like

13:30 you know, that world, that world of people having like private jets and stuff was a really eye opening experience for me. But the real world I was exposed to was high finance. And how high finance works. And you might think As I did. From far away. That folks in

13:46 At hedge funds or at large You know, public equities funds. are extremely nuanced. and thoughtful and they are like, you know, on whiteboards with Yeah.

13:57 You know. uh extremely deep and and oh maybe even theoretical math to figure out Should they buy or sell? You know, Figma. And that's not actually how it works. I mean it really what these folks are is in in this specific case, I think what's happening is they're they buy and sell stock. They are smart people and they do work hard. It's not to take take that away.

14:18 But they they don't have a fundamental edge that you would assume. that uh somebody who sits in uh you know skyscraper in New York has and by the way, that's why retail investors have have have become such a uh active and and and and kind of s significant part of the market. So those folks have gone to AI consultants. And I've gone to people who are literally developers uh at these firms, and they'll do something like, Hey, why don't you build me this app?

14:44 In a week. And then you know, this like consultancy will come back with an app which kind of looks like Maybe a Figma or another, you know, some some some web app. And that hedge fund manager. They're like well and then you know if if

14:57 the the company was sitting there, they would say, No, no, this is this just looks like my app, but this is actually not my app. It's not as deep. It doesn't have all these things. It does the integrations with all these other Other systems. But for the in public investor buy they're like, yeah, but it only took like a few weeks or a month to build this. It took you five hundred engineers for a couple of years. This AI thing could be real and the things I'm reading on X about like just vibe coding your way to replace, you know

15:23 billion dollar companies. That might be the case and the market immediately prices in that risk. And that's where that sell off comes from. That doesn't necessarily mean All of those I mean I just within the last twenty four hours I had a

15:36 Uh that's I I w I I can't say his name, but it's like a very uh let's say uh calibrated investor who said this is the time to buy because these companies are not And it and and so

15:48 I think those are two anxiety within society and the sell-off are two very different things. They're motivated by different things. They're part of the larger AI narrative. But I wouldn't conflate those two things. It's not that the the hedge fund investors like I'm worried about society, sell service now. Like it's it's the there's the the it's it's it's different than that. At least that's my impression. This is the alpha we've been talking about. Time to buy. This is not investment advice.

16:13 Well that's really good advice. And I feel that anxiety, especially when I go to Michigan and I I uh you know, outside of people in the Silicon Valley bubble. It's like just Just

16:26 Try to learn a little bit. uh about the technology that you're afraid of and then you'll start seeing some of the I just. I love your point about how Self driving cars are essentially robots. We don't call them that, but they're robots.

16:37 Absolutely. You see a non truck wielding robot. A self driving car doing bad things is Could be very dangerous already. Uh and so that's a really good reframe that if you just think of it as just another robot and it's been really good for us. And by the way, the self driving thing as an example, you know

16:53 Whichever way you slice uh the statistics that are available from self driving companies. They're supremely supremely more safe than human drivers. And I I I do believe in twenty or thirty years Not that much longer.

17:08 We'll look back and We'll kinda be like It's kinda like we think about child labor. You know, in a post industrial revolution, that was a normal thing. You would send kids who are in middle school to go work.

17:19 It happens in third world countries today. It's there isn't a lot of emotion behind it. It is not considered to be exploitative because you have no choice. You know, everyone just And I think we'll look back in twenty five, thirty years where like people would just like Tired. Uh under the influence.

17:36 You know, after like Extremely stressed. Going through a traumatic life. You know, experience? And then they jump in.

17:43 into a car like that. That that that's the that it's it's it is crazy. And and just for everyone everyone should really emotionally think about just in the United States over thirty Thousand people. Will die. In the next year. From these accidents.

17:59 Th like yeah, the o the old Stalin line, it's like uh You know, a mil uh uh a one death is a tragedy, a million is a statistic. And we just let the statistic kind of go over our head, like, Oh, it's thirty thousand people. But if you ever have talked to a family of somebody who went through a tragedy like a car accident. It isn't it's unbelievable. And and and You know, you you suddenly all the

18:20 Fear of AI robots goes away and you really see that human impact and you realize like actually Us driving doesn't make sense and it's not for any other reason. Then literally people die. I become a a huge uh I have a Tesla in the self I just use self driving all the time now.

18:36 Just like a few months ago it got very good and it's It yep used to be nerve wracking and now it's like wow, this is much more than and and you're doing you're you're not using you're not doing driving as a job. Imagine if you're a commercial truck driver or you work in a mine or you work, you know, like there. A little bit of intelligence, a helping hand.

18:57 in that very dangerous task. It's it's in it's it's incredible. And I think there's something about the human Brain where You know, when you when you bring up that that reality of like self driving trucks. the immediate people are like, Well what about the trucking jobs? No, needless to say that we don't have enough

19:15 people who want to do that job. So l leave that fact to the side. I think the fact that you really focus on is the fact that people die From trucking accidents. Like we we the like we can't you know, throw out the baby with the bath water. And so I think I implore everybody, you know, who thinks about AI broadly. And physical AI specifically.

19:36 To always recognize that your Monkey Brain. Is programmed Because of thousands of years of being in cave you know, hundreds of thousands of years of living out in the wild and being in the cave that when you hear the rustle in the bush That is

19:50 You think it's a snake. Because that's what our ancestors were programmed. So now when something new enters our Of psyche. Y your your view isn't Well

20:01 If if mining if if mines became autonomous Well, wouldn't that lose jobs like Those are Awful jobs. that people die in and the best evidence is that people

20:11 Don't want to work in them. Like that's the best evidence. Like no nobody's clamoring to go work in a in a mine in a remote area. And so intelligence can Hel make that. you know, make that reality much, much better.

20:24 People are seeing AI advance in all these different ways on the software side. You know, they see all these models being released and it's driving a hundred percent of people's code now. What's really cool about you is you see the hardware side of this. And I think one of the biggest changes to our lives will probably be robots walking around doing things for us. Do you have a sense of just how close we are to just robots around us day to day?

20:45 So I would think about the this uh the the the framing here matters again. Yeah, of a spectrum. So there are robots around us like uh Zumbaz, you know like the click uh uh uh clean your carpet while you're sleeping. Uh, there's robots around you when you make a coffee. There's that's an automated machine. That is taking an input and doing a bunch of things based on your, you know, your your what you what you need. So what you're really talking about is

21:10 How fast can go up that spectrum? To where you have a robot that can Take on Lots of tasks. With little guidance.

21:18 And the way that I would think about this is let's say we're sitting in this podcast is happening not in twenty twenty six, but two thousand six. And you're asking me the same question about mobile. And you say, Well mobile is coming. This is remember, pre iPhone. Uh which comes out in oh seven. Everyone has got those flip funnels. So we have some We have mobile. It's not like a completely

21:38 You know, uh so we have some robots around us already. But like it's like okay, so what when are we gonna and you ask me in two thousand six. When are we gonna get that Star Trek phone that can do everything? And I think at that time I would say because I don't even know the iPhone is coming a year later. I would say, well, Lenny, I don't I don't know.

21:55 Maybe it's one to five years and if It's not Five years later that Uber? WhatsApp?

22:02 Instagram. Snapchat are all products and they're being consumed by many, many, many millions of people. So what happens when you think about sitting in two thousand and six and why can't your brain figure out that Instagram is coming. Instagram is very hard to even conceive.

22:18 Without phones that have an app store. Have f cameras on both sides. available, generally available, that lots of people have it. And the fact that people are comfortable being on social networks. In two thousand six is still an early thing. This is pre Twitter and Facebook is not that big.

22:34 And my space is, but it's not the same type of private kinda kind of communication. And so So the the the the point I'm making is I think it can come. Pretty fast. But

22:45 the way and the form factor will come is hard to pick, just like it's hard to figure out Instagram's gonna happen because The the the intelligence in that particular type of hardware, which will be generally available, that's a key word, generally available, is really gonna impact the use cases. So I think like The most obvious use cases that will come early are going to be use cases where

23:08 you get the most amount of bang for buck. And the bang for buck is A car that drives itself. Or a mining robot which is a mining vehicle which is now intelligent. And the reason is

23:19 All that You know, Let's say engineering required to make this giant you know, machine that moves dirt. has already been done. It's been done over the last, you know, fifty, sixty years. So then you're just impart putting a little bit of intelligence into it and leveraging everything else that that that the you know companies and and and and kind of people have developed. So I think I mean I and I'm not just you know pitching my own book. I mean we're a physical

23:43 I I I continue to believe that We're I think our brain emotionally loves the humanoid concept. Because it we're monkeys and but actually uh just like more pragmatically It's actually just putting intelligence into things that already exist all around us.

23:58 And I think and then once that happens, then new applications will emerge. which I think we'll talk about in five to seven years, uh which will be which we'll start seeing. So let's let's just move forward five to seven years and let's see what reality exists and then maybe we can try to jump into the future from there. I think generally speaking, ever uh every single car company on the planet right now is working on a product that's like a Tesla FSD product. every single car company there w without exception. Uh many, many companies are working in versions of that that would become fully autonomous.

24:29 within a cheap sensor suite. So the the fundamental difference just to simplify it all, the Tesla approach versus the Wamo approach. just to really keep it simple, is the Waymo approaches lots of sensors and lots of compute and maps. And the Tesla version is very few sensors. No maps, uh you know no high fidelity maps, and just generalizing here. And uh cheaper compete for the lack of a better word. And b the Tesla

24:53 Vers of a product. Uh, this is in industries called an L two plus plus product. J is gonna be available everywhere. Because it's literally cheaper. And it doesn't require like H D maps. The Waymo product

25:05 functions better in a geographic constrained area. So you fast forward five years. Both of these types of of technologies will be much more ubiquitous. L two plus plus and L four will be much more ubiquitous.

25:19 Not only in the Bay Area. or in parts of China, but really globally. Th the there are the companies working on this globally. So now D, I don't know if you remember, but nav systems used to be a big deal in cars. Yeah. You would pay thousands of dollars and nav systems are kind of the thing that everybody wanted. We're at that moment for L two plus plus systems.

25:38 Where like people are willing to pay thousands of dollars for an a semi automated vehicle. It will not be a long time. You're already seeing this happen in China, where the downward pricing pressure for that autonomous product, for the lack of a better word, will become close to free. So now you fast forward five to seven years in every car. has some level of autonomy. So now you have to like mentally

26:00 live in that reality that everybody who's buying a car They just get F S D with it. now you start seeing a different world because now the m a average person isn't wondering is self driving in a company. They use it all the time. They don't wonder are NAFS and so

26:14 What you have in nav systems is A car play emerges. an Android auto emerges and it's very natural. People are like, Oh, I have my phone, I just plug it in, and and it wasn't a big revolution, but the CarPlay Android Auto Revolution is actually huge. It brings free navigation and free applications to your car and it's fairly ubiquitous. And so I think the next thing ha that happens in five to seven years is then full autonomy becomes the thing that everyone expects. And so I think uh and all of that and you will see a

26:41 Clear decrease. in injuries and death. uh because of that. Uh because you have some intelligence helping you Help help judges. Now again, I I'm using the consumer of vehicle analogies just so people can understand it.

26:54 But this is the same construction? the same in mining, it's the same in defense. It's the it's in every one of these verticals there's these big physical machines that humans are interacting with. that teaming up with that machine. is the future the productivity unlock from just you

27:10 Looking at a machine. Not like a sentient being, but But but almost like an a physical agent. of something you're trying to accomplish unlocks things that I think are very hard. to think about. So I I love, you know

27:23 You know, things like Moatbook and I love op the the like say open claw revolution that's happening for the lack of a better word. But I think the big impact. That's still s that's still such a small part of society. My my my my barometer of impact is like you go to you know d the the Detroit airport and you sit in a gate and you look around and you're like, How many people here are using open claw? And it's like it's like like you might be the only person who knows what that is. And uh and

27:50 Whereas everybody they're living their lives. They're and and so it's like to them Actually the the impact of AI is gonna be in this physical physical world. I see you also have a Yeah, so yeah, there you go. Check it out. I'm a convert open class. There you go. Perfect. My reader's coming on the buttons, so I got some some lobster class. Yes, I think I think the real impact of AI in the next

28:11 Five to ten years. Really is gonna be in farming, in mining, in construction, and self driving trucks. That's where you're gonna ha have a real impact. Though I think

28:23 I mean I I I I love the stuff that's happening on on these platforms, but it's still segregated to like, frankly, developers and some some a small, very, very small part of society. I wasn't s planning to spend so much time here, but this is extremely interesting. And I think it's important for people to hear from folks like you about where things are heading because As I said, everyone's just like what is happening? what is gonna be my future. The jobs piece is really interesting and you have a thread that has come emerged on this podcast recently.

28:51 Is that Like people are afraid AI will take their jobs. But in reality AI is coming just in time. To save us. Because

28:58 uh populations are declining, people are aging. And we need something to help us there. I know this is something you and like this is something Mark talked about and you're really close with him. help help us feel better about just how AI isn't gonna take our jobs and actually gonna Save save us. Yeah, I think I think honestly speaking

29:15 These industries Like they need autonomy. I mean and and and and I and it and it couldn't come soon enough, uh, frankly speaking. People are not fighting. For those

29:28 Trucking jobs. Uh, if you look at farmers, the average age of a farmer is in their late fifties, fifty eight or so. Wha what does that mean? in ten years from now. That means many of those farmers are going to be retiring if they're not already retired. And

29:43 Twenty years we have even a bigger A bigger problem. That, by the way, is every vertical's like that. And I you know, my hypothesis here, but uh unlike, you know, sometimes people say like You know, McDonald's can't hire or like, you know, the the mind local query can't hire and

29:58 Where are all the people? The people are still here. I think they just the trade off is just not worth it anymore. In the nineteen eighties and the nineteen nineties, doing the long haul trucking job. was what the family has to sacrifice, the father not being there for

30:12 For Days and weeks on end. And today That same working class family is has can make that decision and say, you know what, I will drive for Uber or DoorDash.

30:22 And I'm willing to do that because I can turn that app off and pick up my kit and I Prioritize that. That is where I think this, you know, this uh this kind of uh intelligence kind of revolution in the real world is really, I think, is gonna fill those gaps in. Um

30:39 Rather than like An entire industry suddenly gone and it's just automated. This is this is I I don't believe that future. Mainly because the realities of actually you know, uh replacing an entire industry with robots is is is still W that's too complex.

30:55 One day it will happen. But it's not happening anytime soon. But the entire society will be different by that point. And I think again, use the industrial revolution as as a good version of that. I uh uh the you know the the earlier question If I'm somebody who is not in the AI ecosystem.

31:11 And I have this anxiety. And uh how would I deal with it? Reading history books is a great way to really understand how society deals with this. And there are there's a lot of literature because industrial revolution doesn't happen like, you know Yeah, in the dawn of Christianity where not many people are writing and not many people are reading.

31:30 Lots of people are writing, lots of people are reading. in that uh in in the last hundred and fifty years. And you can read Both the people who are imp impacted by the industrial revolution, people who are benefiting from the and writ large it's a very positive experience. And that doesn't mean there again, there are downsides. We should

31:47 Mitigate the downsides. But the thing that we can't do, and this is maybe specifically as America or society as as the the global global population as a whole. There's this impetus. to say like we gotta pump this break on Again, not don't say AI, say technology. Pump does break on technology. The issue then is the American economy.

32:07 really ends up stuttering. And that impacts the lowest end of the label market labor market way more than anybody else. And so in the attempt To help the people who are the most marginalized, we actually hurt them the most.

32:22 And uh the the you know, the the the statistics between Europe and America are Yeah, been I've been. have been are pretty explicit, but in the last decade, basically the American economy is is now, you know, grown at a much higher pace. And that growth hasn't come from You know.

32:39 Detroit Michigan. That growth has come from Mountain View and it's come from Sunnyville. It's come from the Bay Area. And which is another way of saying it's because of new frontier technologies. So putting brakes on frontier technology because We're afraid of unintended consequences.

32:55 will actually have real intended consequences on people who are trying to help the most. And the reality is very, very fundamental. In a future that does not take care of the average worker and the average person in America we'll have much bigger problems. So we need a solution that takes that into account.

33:14 But that solution isn't. Just pump the brakes AI is bad or frontier technology is bad or technology's bad or whatever you know, whatever thing that you you don't like. I think that that that'll have really, really bad consequences. One of the reasons that we don't pump the brakes is just fear of China and competition with China.

33:32 Uh the Nunchuck robots. Uh being a recent example of like oh shit. Uh, and I have kind of a contrarian take on just how much of a threat China is and how they're Approaching things. the summary version of this is I think the way you we we recently read as a company, we read this book, uh House of Huawei, which is just a really great interesting book. And uh

33:52 Huawei is a really Amazing company. Uh for the reason that it makes great technology. But The couple hundred thousand people that work at Huahue.

34:02 About a quarter of them are members of the communist party. And Huawei's goal is not to grow profits or shareholds. It's a private company. It's really a extension of the state. So It literally the n name Hua Hoi means China's ambition. So imagine if you had a company called

34:18 You know, Maga. And half of the company or a quarter of the company was a certain political party. And they said our goal isn't to make profits Or to be our goal is just the uh expansion of a it's not even a company anymore. It's it's it's something else, right? And so I think We incorrectly when we I mean specifically speak of Americans

34:39 uh we think about China we impart our understanding of markets and companies onto China. So we think Huawei since they make phones, they must be just like Apple. It's like no no no actually that's not that's not like Apple at all. And so I think The first thing I would implore everybody who thinks about China, especially with anxiety in America, is

34:57 You're not comparing companies to companies. This is this is not apples to apples. This is very, very different. And so Imagine instead of thinking open AI is competing against, you know, Deep Seek. You say open ads competing against the Chinese government. Instead of Apple competing against Huawei. Apple's competing against the Chinese government.

35:16 And you can even remove the word Chinese government is the best word. to to define what this organization is, but it's not a for-profit, privately owned. Independent. group of people who are working on projects together to build build products to to market. So that's a first very important thing. You cannot treat China like another America or another Europe or another whatever.

35:37 Number two is If your goal isn't to make profits. you can do incredible research and it can be extremely compelling. But like we've seen, uh if you're if the f if the if the system is not sustainable, that's also not a company that's not sustainable. Let me give a very stark example of that.

35:56 Chinese EVs are really lauded as being this exceptionally interesting product, right? And uh and and you constantly get the streamer of I would say fairly shallow analysis which says, look how good China is look how Bad. Munich, Detroit, Tokyo, uh Solar, the other other epicenters for automotive. uh globally. There is a Chinese EV light company in America. It's called Rivian. Makes great products.

36:20 Uh but They lose a lot of money making those products and therefore the company is not very highly valued. I think if you said top fifty or top hundred companies in the Bay Area, I'm not sure Vivian would We'd even make that list.

36:34 And it's not that the products are bad or the people at Rivian are incompetent or they're not working hard. It's just the business is a tough business. The EV business in automotive is a tough business. So how can we hold these realities so we say Look how amazing these Chinese EV companies are and look how bad the home team is. It's just because the home team is being assessed For being a business.

36:54 It has to make profits. And because it doesn't. it gets hammered by public investors. The other thing is not even a company. Now let's if we do apples to apples us, America just has has to build great E Vs. That means Tesla and everybody else combined and we don't care about profits, I think America would field some very good products.

37:13 And there would be wow products. So it's the the comparisons are really, really off. And I think that's cre creates an misunderstanding. I think you know Then then the low maybe the most philosophical question. Can China succeed

37:28 And does that mean America has to fail or vice versa? If you believe in open and free markets, you believe everybody can succeed in those markets. And that's been proven for over a hundred years. Uh and I think what we're experiencing right now is how does China play in that ecosystem because I said open and free markets and those are not open and free markets. And so but that doesn't necessarily mean that you have to have an antagonistic relationship. It certainly doesn't mean that China's incompetent.

37:52 And it certainly doesn't mean that it's not doesn't warrant our attention and that are our kind of let's say focus. But it's also not a one to one comparison. I think we should be very careful in implying it's a one to one comparison. By the way, that like five minute explanation is never gonna get to the average person sitting at an airport.

38:12 in Detroit, Michigan waiting for their flight. They All they consume is China bad. Like it's like that's not it's not like that. It's not that It's not that simple. It's way more nuanced.

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39:14 So you decided to join Twitter recently, put out your first tweet. Your first tweet was just like hello, I'm gonna start tweeting. That tweet got like two million views. Uh Elon reply to you. Mark Andrewson.

39:27 uh quo tweeted it and said, This is the best AI CO nobody knows, follow for the for free alpha. Uh Elon Gill. famed investor describes you as the most successful, most quiet company in AI. And To me, this is really interesting because most founders are told

39:44 Uh Build in public, build a following, be loud, get out there, talk all the time about what you're doing. You did the opposite. You were very into the radar, stayed quiet, build, build, build, and then decided later, Okay, now time it's time to talk about our story. So I think this counter narrative is really interesting. I think will inspire a lot of founders to not feel like they have to do this. What was your just a

40:03 philosophy of just start staying quiet and then starting Yeah. Yeah, that it's it's a it's a great point. Um so number one, it was intentional and and I think if it was up to me it would We would do that forever. I think we're very much um Inspired by folks more like a Berkshire Hathaway and uh less like, you know, let's say

40:24 a Silicon Valley darling and um the I'll I'll tell tell why I changed the views and then just but Before Some founders go and take that advice uh immediately without without really thinking about it. I can do that because I'm known in the ecosystem. You know, I know these g folks personally.

40:42 And so I don't need to have a uh a brand out there that is getting Elad to, you know, remember me and think about me. And so if you're you know, if I'm doing my first two companies, uh, were a lot less known. It was before I really, you know, became to Y C. So You know, all of our company values can be reduced to these two words of radical pragmatism. So before you take the advice Make sure it applies to your situation.

41:07 One of the reasons and Naval, who's one of our uh investors and and a friend uh you know says you know fame itself is like a tool and it's and it's Powerful. Now if you don't have a network and you can get a following, that's a fantastic way

41:22 to get you know to recruit people to your company, to recruit investors to your mission and then of course, you know uh the customers. And so But for us, uh and I think I think

41:34 that wasn't a hard requirement, you know, to ten ten plus years ago. The other thing is I think Peter and I y the you know the the old saying about life is kind of like You do things and then you rationalize the thing that you do. Right. So I think fundamentally Peter and I we don't get a lot of My co founder Peter Lutterweek, we don't get a lot of emotional satisfaction out of

41:53 doing very public things. And I think if I was really to play armchair psychologist And really try to get to the root. Rational view which is Focus on your customers, focus on the product.

42:07 Every minute you're doing a podcast, every minute you're doing an ex post, every minute you're writing something for public consumption. You're not focusing your very limited time that you have on your customers and your product and ultimately that's the only thing that's gonna produce and yield results. But the but the the the you know the the reality of the situation today you know, twenty twenty six is even a company like us that's known or or somebody like me that's known in the ecosystem, you still want to get that broader message out. And that's what I talk a little bit. So it's uh

42:39 It's uh It is definitely contrarian, but it's not just contrarian for contrarian sake. It plays a little bit of our of our own psychology. Uh and then I would say just to just to finish that thought there is You know, I grew up, you know, I'm an immigrant, uh came to the US uh from Pakistan when I was a kid.

42:58 have a little bit of a weird name and uh you feel like, you know, anybody. I grew up in in in Detroit in Warren, Michigan specifically for all those uh at home. And uh When you feel that you're a little bit on the edge of society or you're not maybe in the mainstream. And this is you know, resonates with some people. That's not as r as resonate with everybody. you feel very skeptical of the mainstream because you're just on the outside for so long. And I think you can trace a bunch of founders psychology to this.

43:26 feeling of being an outcast, actually. And so then you find yourself in a situation where you're like the Y C COO of Y C And The narrative of I'm an outsider is like I don't know if there's anything more inside than being, you know, the Y C C O O, right? So I think uh that reconciliation I think over the over my career also has has has had to happen, which is like

43:50 Maybe that's just kind of a weird weird kind of thing. And so when I talk to you know, Mark Andreessen, who who's who really pushed me to go go online or Elot or whoever it is, uh their view is Leave your baggage in your trauma. You know, in the background. And really let's Let's think more pragmatically. And the pragmatic thing here is whether I like to do these types of things or not.

44:11 Fundamentally, it helps get the message out. And the message can be Something very small and myopic like what's happening in physical AI and machines become intelligent. Or much larger, which is what's what's happening in society. through this, you know, fundamental change that we're going through. I I I've had the

44:30 Rare privilege or the uh, you know, experience of seeing the full economic spectrum. You know, I've I've really seen the b extreme ends of both sides and and truly I I really mean that. And uh so

44:44 Somebody like Mark, uh who is close to our our our company says Well that's a Those are some ideas that are worth getting out. beyond just, you know, you're there promoting whatever some you know, your company or something like that. And and that I actually But I that I can get behind, which is like the debate and discussion about ideas and what's happening.

45:01 To our society. because of these technical changes. And um and so, you know, here I am. Amazing. Okay. So there's a few threads I want to follow there. One is you were, as you said, C O O O at Y Combinator. You saw a lot of startups up close. You had you this is your third startup. On your own.

45:20 Something that I hear you talk about is that successful companies almost always show traction very early. A lot of founders here are like, No, just keep trying fighting and maybe maybe we'll be the next Figma notion four years in, we'll figure it out. What's your experience there and what's your advice to founders who aren't seeing traction early?

45:38 Uh nuances. I mean if I was starting another company I'd call it nuance. Uh right. So uh the the the uh I think uh what you're saying is correct. I've I I I continue to believe that. I think good companies tend to be to have traction fairly early and then just sustain it for a decade plus. To the founders that's toiling. Let's say f I you you're listening and you're about two years into your company and and you're maybe t having a tough time building getting money and building that first product that c consumers or or businesses really love, either the retention or dollars.

46:09 Two years is a very is the difficult time. I I the heuristic that I would use is If I'm not If the information I'm getting from the market is not informing me on a more and more specific path, I would consider resetting. And what I mean by reset is oftentimes, and this is way my Y C hat seeing, you know, hundreds and and thousands of companies, is oftentimes is like the co founding

46:33 Like literally the foundation upon which the house was built is not correct. It's like imagine you built this house and Every time you put a cup of water and it slides off the table and it falls on the ground. And you're do you keep adjusting the table, it's like maybe the foundation is actually wrong. The whole house is off kilter. And that foundation might not only be Your co-founders, it could be the market that you're in. It could be the phase of life that you're in and the amount of effort that you're willing to put into that thing in order to make it successful. So there's a bunch of reasons that a company can fail. Uh and you have to be able to somehow say, I don't know what is the reason. I'm just gonna have to hard reset here.

47:08 One thing I would tell founders, and I tell a uh applied is creating a a founder class in itself. People who've worked at applied intuition are now starting their own companies. Uh, you know, we have a thousand plus engineers and over time they they're they're they're starting their own uh firms and I say to all of them is Just imagine the first time you're gonna do startup for the first three year. It's a zero.

47:28 Just rid yourself of the expectation. that it's gonna be successful and that you're really you're you're a craftsperson. If we were make if we were if this was a woodworking podcast. And you said You know, the first uh uh table that you built was, you know, what

47:45 It was wobbly. You wouldn't say Well Go work at. Crate and barrel. You'd say, Oh, that's the first table. We're gonna we're gonna keep at it.

47:52 It being a founder is its own muscle. And you want to exercise that muscle. But I think a lot of founders, especially early in their founding career, put such An incredible pressure on themselves.

48:05 Great out of the gate. that they actually miss the thing that you're getting in that first round, which is learning. And building that muscle. And the second, third time. And I I think it's not random that my third company is the most successful company. I think I think that's that I think and that you see that more often than not. There are funds which are almost exclusively focused on multi time founders.

48:24 Right, for for for this reason. What I love about that advice is often the best ideas come from when you're You have low expectations. You're just playing around, you're just tinkering, you're not like I'm gonna build the next great I don't know.

48:37 Yeah. Google. Uh it's just you having fun. And that and that's like how I found this. world that I'm in right now, this path and Open claw is a good example of that.

48:46 I think which why that advice is so difficult is if you hear this and you're like You know, you're in you're in the you're in the proverbial war. You're like, What the hell are these people talking about having fun? And so you have to like hold these contr like contrasting kind of or conflicting views in your head which is like it's deeply very very important.

49:08 And you should give it your all? And it's also Not that important. And uh that's a really hard thing to reconcile and keep keep in balance. And the way that you approached this company where you stayed quiet, like that, I think helps a lot where you're not absolutely. Yeah. It's it that like

49:23 Uh the uh you know, even like uh uh at Y C when I became uh COO, I I told Sam uh Sam Altman was a president. And I told Sam, um, let's not announce this for like a year because You know, I if the Partners don't want me to be COO. It's not a successful thing. I you know, I don't have the pressure of the public of public scrutiny that, you know, why were you CO only for six months or something like that? And I think you have to be very honest with yourself as a founder and as a human being that those things matter.

49:52 what people think about you matter and it impacts yourself and Be having the spotlight on you. You know, the the I always say It's very easy to pivot. before you raise money and before you have employees. No nobody cares. The moment you raise money and the more importantly, the moment you hire employees, employees joined a very specific mission.

50:11 And you go and you you walk into the office and there's ten of them, you say, Guys, turns out this isn't wrong. We're going on a different mission. Imagine if this was war. It's like what the hell? We just we're attacking that hill and now we just say that hill's not important, like How do you know the next hill is important? And you as a lead, you lose a lot of credibility. And it's not only for the superficial list of being a credible leader. It's the practical nature of when you're very, very public.

50:33 They become uh the the startup becomes your identity. And then suddenly you're You're having to reconcile that actually that thing is not correct. So it's It is e uh one of our uh our our uh we have these core values in the company. And uh in and early in the company you just have this line which says

50:49 Our best work is done alone and quietly. And I I deeply believe that. And and so founders, I would I would think of it that way. Um But it's for pragmatic reasons. It's not like some just f because it's cool to be under the radar. It's it's it's just allows you to maybe work in a bit more peaceful. I love these core values you've shared so far. This la the last one, uh the best work is done alone and quietly. I'm so on board with that.

51:15 Uh radical pragmatism is the other one you shared earlier. Are there are there a couple more there? These are these are gems. Yeah, we th those are like I would say the the the the meta values. We we have very specific uh uh, let's say operating principles. And this is this is real as tactical as advice I can give to founders. So we can Come up with your values when you're getting a little bit of traction. And the reason I say that is

51:38 early enough where you and the way you come up with the values is not like What values should we have like as philosophers? You should figure out Why are we being successful? Like literally write down the five to ten things that are the reasons you are being successful and those become your values. And you kind of re and so we did that. And so our first one was gonna speed above everything.

51:58 Uh and it was like us being fast. The second one is like You know, uh never disappoint the customer. Technical mastery. High output matters. Like all the way down to like You know, ones that are not obvious, like laugh a lot. That's been our core value from at the beginning of the company's history.

52:13 It's like when you're working on intense things, if you don't have the ability to keep grounded, have perspective, laughter and humor also is a way to Give subtle feedback and a slightly different taste than This sucks. You can say It's not the best. And and that is slightly indeed. And so you're you're really creating the framework in which people are learning how to behave with each other within the company. And so today the values really serve

52:38 us as almost like uh they're like guiding principles. And so I you know, we do new team meetings that every week Peter and I will meet all the all the new team members and we're almost always just talking about the values in in some some level of the detail in depth. Yeah. Uh a another value, uh half of the work is follow up. Like just taking notes and following up. That is the business. It's not more complex than that. Laugh a lot is uh my new favorite company value. Uh sounds like a wonderful place to work. And then on the on the last piece there, there's this book that just came out by Stripe Press about maintenance. And how valuable and underappreciated the maintenance part of

53:13 Work is absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, I think like If there if there's a takeaway that you get from let's say a bit of my philosoph

53:22 on uh where we you know we started the conversation around like why If pr you know b being promotional has all these negative connotations in it, but so I'm uh careful using that word, but why not be promotional? It's because there's costs to everything. And so if you can focus on the craft. and making the product really, really good and really listening to your customers.

53:47 you have a much higher likelihood of success. And uh and then you can you can always then go and and and and scale there. A part of that is the thing that you're talking about. Maintenance What Another version of in in you know, I my my roots are in automotive engineering. then automotive engineering is actually of exercise in quality.

54:04 Uh that's that's really what it's you're you're building these very complex machines at scale. You know, people talk about rockets being really, really complex. you only gotta send up a rocket even at the highest capac like once every couple of days. You're making a car every thirty seconds and you have to make it Extremely cheap and it's globally competitive. So the you really get into the nuance and minutia of

54:25 How a factory runs. And a factory is about safety and maintenance. It does not there's not a lot of complex things. It's just You know, it's like when you when you break down what is being operationally Uh you know, strong. keeping an eye on a handful of things and making sure you're doing them really, really good.

54:42 And I I'm I'm one of those believers that You know, uh there there's this adage is a a man who cannot command his himself is not fit to command others. Um and it's like that maintenance aspect is a part of that, right? It's like Well, if you maintain yourself and your own work, you maintain the your team, you maintain the company. The product.

55:02 are almost they they come out of all of that that that that system. And I think a lot of founders don't think about their company as a system or as almost as a machine. But I th I I would implore you to do that. Because then you really focus on the craft of the machine and building the machine and making it more

55:18 Hygienic. Uh and and and and and making it more well tuned. Just like, you know, you'll meet people who really love cars and they they really obsess about the maintenance of cars, you know, like Like

55:30 They will they will detail Like underneath the driver's seat? As somebody who details my own cars, like Nobody's gonna look at that, but it's under that same ethos of of really caring a lot about the craft and being and and being really and frankly speaking since you have limited amount of time. It's hard to really care about

55:47 X. And also making your making your company's hygienic and And there's different reasons at different points of your company that you should do different things, but that's kinda the little bit of the ethos. I love how I keep coming back to just staying quiet, working just working on the thing and not talking about it. Your point last point there makes me think of that um the score takes care of itself. Uh classic.

56:07 Yeah, so Joe Montana is actually one of our investors and in our series D post, we the post was the valuation takes care of itself. Like very much we fall into that category. Um and it's like It's like you know, sometimes people will come to our office and uh they'll say, Oh, like it's Like such a clear, you guys must have like this giant cleaning staff. And it's like

56:26 Actually. We clean our office. Uh the just like in Japanese schools, as I mentioned, I lived in Japan, like the students clean their clean their uh own schools. We have a cleaning zen every week and everyone cleans the area around them. And I think it's important that Like there's something about this ethos of like uh also like not getting so

56:47 wrapped up in your own narrative of like I'm a Stanford software engineer and I do AI. It's like Clean up your desk. So there's like some like basic things like that. Uh, and I don't know what that larger philosophy is, uh, but it is a philosophy that we we we kinda drive towards. And I think like, you know, our claim to fame, which is kind of a crazy, you know, reality is we've never spent Any money we've ever raised.

57:12 in the history of the company, which is kind of it almost sounds like it's made up. It's a company's almost ten years old, you know, a thousand engineers plus And so we're a functioning Business. without using capital that we raise. And I think it's somehow connected to us cleaning the office. I d I don't know how it's saving all these cleaning costs. We still have people cle you know c clean, but like we also are

57:37 uh like our employees also are aware of their surroundings. And I think there's a direct line between like B Quiet and alone and clean your desk and well written software. And I don't know what that thing is, but it's all falls in the same arc. I know you also have a no shoe policy.

57:54 for that same reason to things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it also influenced five Japan. I think the uh the you know I l uh w uh work there and we we had a similar office set up. The other the other other way to think about this maybe as again if I'm just trying to impart everything I've known to founders, because I feel like that's my you know that that's who that's who that that information is so limited and everyone's kind of trying to make it up, frankly speaking. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. I would implore you as a founder. To

58:21 Really try to take the best of Japan. And the best of Germany, the best of China. The best of Detroit.

58:28 The best of Silicon Valley. And and you know I think sometimes people take that Steve Jobs line and they really like, you know, deform it where they say like great artist steel. What he's really talking about is like The less the less magnanimous version of that is

58:43 Uh be humble. And learn from everything around you and as a leader and be be well rounded. Uh I think like Reading.

58:54 it should be you know, I I uh there's a Charlie Munger line where he says, I've never met anybody uh very, very successful who doesn't read all the time and I like very much fall into that category as well. Um, and so if you like unpack why that is, like why does reading a physical book make you a better founder. Like I just like ask that question in the most direct way is I'm not reading, you know, if you especially my my ethos of reading is read old books. Don't read anything new. Read read old books because time has filtered out a lot of the noise. So you get a lot of signal.

59:25 And in your life you you're gonna A thousand books, maybe you'll read in the You're gonna be probably fifty to a hundred books, which is kinda crazy for the average person. So you're just not gonna read many. So don't read low quality content. You read there are there are true pillars. of of kind of of human

59:45 uh ideas out there. you consume those ideas and then it's up to you to interpret how those ideas then reflect upon the business that you're leading or the technology that you're developing. I absolutely believe reading uh a a book like Malcolm X's autobiography. will make you a better founder. And it's not I again, it's like the whole cleaning zen all the way to clean coat.

1:00:08 It's not directly one to one related. I think we always want these very simple If then statements. Uh, but I think being a well rounded founder where you understand society around you and history around you, that somehow makes you build a better product. And I don't know how, uh and how and why, but I think it's absolutely true. I I I do see a good uh connection there.

1:00:30 And then people like Charlie Munger who are not an AI founder. obviously also believe that and I I think so there there's some some pattern there. Like it's interesting this is the same it's a metaphor for LLMs. You feed all his data, somehow they become Almost conscious. How does that happen? No one no one. Fully knows.

1:00:46 Um it's so interesting how similar you are to Mark Andrews and and your way of thinking and the way you consume content. Like there's like We're both bald. Yeah. There's a thread here just here's how here's here's important ingredients to being really successful. Yeah, I mean Mark, I mean uh You know, we're we're fortunate enough to choose

1:01:03 you know, our investors and and that's a true privilege. I didn't have that in my first company. We spent years we didn't raise a dollar. So I don't I certainly appreciate it. But uh You know, uh if I've ever had like a a mentor, uh you know, Mark would fall into that category. And then you know before applied and we we debated and talked a lot and Uh I think Mark uh is also like that, right? He really consumes content actually outside of

1:01:28 this little industry that we're in. And uh and then I think it makes him actually a better investor. Yeah, you're uh we'll point people to your website. You have a list of the books that you recommend and love, and it's very long and very not what you often see. Uh, I can't help but just ask, are there a few books that have most influenced your thinking, most influenced your life? Yeah, that list is like I've thoughtful been thoughtful about about that. Uh the reason I g I I use books like uh hit the you know, the autobiography of Malcolm X as an example is I know that's not on the top of the list. Everyone's gonna You know, if I say high output management, classic Andy Grove, you guys know that. So, the question book here.

1:02:05 Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like partly the theatrics of also entertaining you, but also giving you new information as a as a as a listener. Um I think like a good I'm c the books I'm currently reading. This is kind of a random you know slot of books. Like I'm reading the the vibe coding book that came out there where our whole companies re reading that, which is a new book and it kinda goes against my grain of my heuristic. Um but uh Emperor of all maladies, the the cancer book, uh fantastic book. I'm almost done with it. Like

1:02:35 I think it changes the way I think. Like you you you read that and it changes the way and I think That's the ultimate Test. when a piece of material changes your existing framing on Life. This is

1:02:50 This is good. It's an L M use case. Diverse data. makes your understanding of the world More rich and nuanced. And therefore it's better.

1:03:02 Um, but yeah, so like I'm always in inspired to give like more wacky kind of examples rather than than the other obvious ones. But uh the obvious ones that I f I really wasn't wasn't uh you know wasn't being theatrical. I think Sam Walton's book, Made in America is a f unbelievable book. It's very, very good. He wrote it on his deathbed. My American Journey is also very good. Col Powell's book. It's not it's not on my website, but it's it's it's really good. You know, I I'm a I'm I'm somebody who tries to connect some of these dots from like us being, you know, cave people to now

1:03:35 Like living in you know you know, uh Silicon Valley working as a Venture backed AI company founder. Uh and so guns uh uh books like Guns, Germs and Steel really are top of that list are fantastic. fantastic book or Collapse, also same author. Um so yeah, but um my my my point to the to to founders Is

1:03:55 Read the stuff. You can still go to physical bookstores. Read the stuff that is both old and well regarded. and you know nothing about. I often when I'm trying to find the next book to read, like I remember uh the way I picked up SPQR, which is the book on on Roman history, was like I was like, I don't actually know a lot about Roman history. I know the high level stuff.

1:04:16 So like Think about all the ideas in the universe, from philosophy to history to You know, Jainism. to the rise of uh, you know, Japan as a uh as a feudal state. Like areas you don't really know, and then just find the best book in that space.

1:04:31 And I think you you just start filling in the blanks. And so often I I I that's kinda like the way that I grok. The ecosystem is like What don't I know anything about and let me co find the best piece of material in in in that. And yeah.

1:04:44 Doesn't work well. I like that. Uh so Mark's Mark's philosophy is his barbell strategy of only Today news like X and ten years ago books. I love that you're like j no X just like a Upside down TLM just only. Yeah, you yeah. I mean you uh you know, Mark was a heavy influence in me getting on X. So uh he's he's he's he's propagated that that that view. The uh the thing that I really do agree with him is is on

1:05:09 As our company becomes a larger more influential and impactful company of society. It is my responsibility as a co founder of the company, the CEO of the company to At least Propagate my ideas.

1:05:23 to AI founder community. And then larger the technology leadership. And then the the world ri large. And so that's that that's part of it. I think in that way Mark is Mark has really

1:05:36 Taking it and you do you think about VCs not long ago. You would never even know who their names are. Yeah. I mean they were like this and they were like, you know, they're like PE guys or or or you know, hedge fund managers. You can't even think of names. They're they're like they're just blobs of ominous sounding Obsidian Corporation or something like that. And it's only A sixteen Z and a couple of other folks, John Doer, uh who really kind of created the

1:06:02 Hey, I'm gonna be the individual investor and I'm gonna propagate a certain set of ideas and that's gonna it create gravity within Silicon Valley to influence founders. to then make certain types of companies and then of course they invest in those. On this thread about Reading to

1:06:18 find almost areas you disagree in and don't You know, haven't thought about. approaches to management and one that maybe a value. is to encourage your leaders to listen to naysayers. To not create this positive reinforcement cycle. Talk about

1:06:33 Why that's so important, how you operationalize that. So uh imagine uh, you know I'm not the the the founder of the company and Peter's not the co founder of the w it's just just a generic company. The ideal that you the ideal situation with a generic company is one that You can put in

1:06:50 Lots of different Competing ideas. The culture is one where you go shake those ideas out. There's not an emotion in it. Whoever brings the idea, the best best idea wins. So why can't companies Do that.

1:07:03 Frankly speaking. A lot of times it's the founders and the founders are told it the you know, by you know popular media and The way that human beings experience life and our tribal kind of outlook. that you have to have this hard view and everyone has to if they're not following you.

1:07:19 then maybe you're a weak leader or something like that. And I think we just don't believe that we don't just believe in that philosophy. And I think we we we believe that uh what maybe a more tactical way of saying that is we take inputs of the environment.

1:07:34 Specifically. Our employees, our competitors of our investors, and we of what's happening in society at large, and that impacts our strategy. And uh and I think it's one of the reasons we've been very, very successful. We're not We're not so arrogant. to think that we just have the answers

1:07:51 because we had the ambition to start a company. And I think that permeates into a very specific culture. And I think the culture that we built is one it's also not being contrarian for contrarian sake. Right. I I like if you well one one view I do have is emotions are generally Not helpful. in making rational decisions. They're almost like the opposite of it. And sometimes passion and

1:08:14 You know, leadership are supposed to be about you know, th they're supposed to be like again magnanimous or or or or emotional. And I we just don't believe that. We and and that's I think a bit more of our kind of Midwest, you know, uh you know, roots showing for Peter and I and and and And so I think it's not that we say a uh disagree with everything in the room.

1:08:35 What we would specifically say is Speak up. Speak up. Everyone has to speak up because That one person with their one experience because they worked at you know, Zooks or Waymo or wherever Tesla or they worked at a Chinese company, whatever it is.

1:08:49 That one idea they have in their head when the debate is happening about what we should do in Um You know, uh in space. Like literally the space of space. Uh and uh and something maybe we don't know much about that one person's one idea.

1:09:05 They have to feel comfortable. sharing it. Even if they're the most junior person or they feel that they didn't get their way in the last debate or they f they feel you know, whatever whatever anxiety that they might have. They have to share that opinion that guys, this is actually the right idea or this is the wrong idea. And if you can create that environment where the best idea wins, you know, Gandhi has this line, truth is what stands the test of time.

1:09:26 We're trying you know, and I think there's become a little bit of a meme in the Bay Area, like truth seeking You know, as a culture. But it kinda is like that. We're trying to find the best idea. Maybe truth is the wrong word, maybe it's the best idea. Find the best idea and then let's go full bore a g against the best idea. Let's maybe use a counterfactual.

1:09:44 Why do companies fail? When they have great talent. And they have, you know, seemingly all the same components that up that uh an applied intuition have. It's because Maybe the best ideas are not being surfaced and certainly maybe they're not actually being adopted.

1:10:00 Or More often than not. When I think about companies that have been very successful. is they have momentum going in a specific direction.

1:10:09 And that momentum over that that that that s that w that wall of sound overwhelms any new sound that's emerging, which is hey, the market's changing. The market's changing. You just can't even hear that because there's all this momentum going in a particular direction. A good example, I had front row seats for this when I worked at Google. Uh it was the era where Facebook was emerging. And here's Google and people don't remember Google in the late double O's and early teens.

1:10:34 Google wasn't just a company. It was the apex predator of Silicon Valley. Apple was just, you know, the MacBook Air had just come out. Steve Jobs was had did had his getting in the right direction, but nothing like Apple is today. Amazon AWS was still a young thing. NVIDIA was teetering off of bankruptcy. Uh, I mean, all these giant companies that you think of, Microsoft was run by Ballmer.

1:10:59 You know, Twitter was a small thing. And then you So it wasn't it was in but Google was this already larger than life, number one company. Everybody wanted to work at Google. And there was there there were not many companies with that stature.

1:11:12 And then in the periphery, this little company Facebook starts emerging. And Google who has the best engineers on the planet is making a billion in cash flow a month. Tries to fight this little company.

1:11:24 That and I remember Facebook at that time maybe had a thousand people. And Google was like you know Fifteen X, twenty X to size? With a lot of cash flow. And why couldn't Google fight

1:11:35 Facebook. It's because Google is not Facebook. It's like the Confucian saying, like, how does a gorilla learn how to fly? By not being a gorilla.

1:11:44 The way that Google would have won the social media wars By being a social media company, it's it's just fundamentally not. And so The large this happens in companies all the time. Which is

1:11:55 You're just going in one direction with momentum. Consciously or unconsciously, because that's what all the employees are. That's what the culture is, that's what the what they work on. And then something changes. in the market and you just can't even even even move there. And I think That also can happen uncared or surprisingly at really small companies.

1:12:14 So where founders have a view. And it's like that view is the view it's gonna be. And actually that can be just ten degrees off from what is the was the correct path and the whole company's kind of led astray. So they were in the right market. They might have even been solving the right problem. But they were just a little off. We're so scared of failing.

1:12:31 And so scared of losing. That I will. humble myself and listen to other people and they say, Hey. We're five degrees off. Of course here.

1:12:40 And it's like okay. Let let's let's let's let's maybe fix the course. And then once that becomes your culture, then it's really hard to lose. means everybody's not about Fulfilling a preset. Pat.

1:12:50 They're just about finding the r you know, to how to win. This is exactly what I wanted to ask about. Everyone listening to this either is like Oh yeah, we're very open minded. We're we're absolutely gonna listen to everyone's opinions and decide rationally the right Path uh in practice. Right. Uh or they're just like

1:13:08 Uh we're just we know we're not good at this. We're just like too nice to each other. Um How do you How do you do this at a company that isn't good at this? Is it like does it have to be the CEO top down in your experiences that have to be part of the culture, how do you operationalize at a company that's not like you?

1:13:23 You know the the middle way is the is typically the right way. And and it's it's it's hard to find the middle way because these are conflicting ideas. These are the the the the the guardrails or the flagp or the p posts you just set. One side is like we're just gonna go and the other side is we're too m you know, maybe Like almost like unsure.

1:13:42 And you have to somehow Once you do make the have that debate, you have to then confidently walk down that path. And again, this is Conflicting. Be humble enough to listen to what's going on, but then once that decision is made, the decisive

1:13:57 in our values, that first value, uh you know the speed value, which is Specifically the wording is uh move fast, move safe. That's specifically the wording. We asse our manager's on adherence to those values literally we compensate and promote against those values. So they're not just like abstract values. So the behavior

1:14:15 We're actually looking at Under speed is decisiveness. So we're setting up a system that is looking at, you know, these conflicting kind kind of things. One is like be open and the other one's make decisions quickly. And and you have to hold th h hold those intention.

1:14:31 This is why you as the co founder or founder of the company get paid the big bucks. You gotta do that. You gotta you have to know when the when to bluff and when to hold'em and uh you know, uh when to fold'em as I say. So you you you you you At some point. And that point comes

1:14:48 sometimes faster than you think, you will not get any more information. You have to make a decision. So the you're you're you're walking this very, very thin line. Your point about emotions was extremely interesting. And I wanna make sure people don't take away the wrong takeaway here. Um, so what I actually found really helpful, which I think is aligned with what you were

1:15:06 Suggesting is Taking emotions out of it. The way I've use this in my work is Uh when you have to make a d hard decision Pretend nobody's feelings would be hurt and emotions are not involved.

1:15:17 What would you do if nobody cared? If they're like Totally great. So what would you do do in that world? And then that tells you, okay, that's actually the right thing to do. And then it's Okay, how do I help people feel okay about this? How do I deal with the

1:15:29 Down sides of this path. Yeah, I think I think that that that's the that's the obvious version of it. I think maybe another version of thinking is It's an emotion is let's take another root. You As the leader or as the engineer uh who is getting uh direction

1:15:46 You already have some preset view that this is my idea. That's an emotional You know, that's an emotional construct and it's it's it's around ownership and feeling of ownership. So

1:15:58 Yeah, I'm I I really fall into that category of like The more So like w even m maybe most fundamentally, like what is an emotion? An emotion is like these set of reactions that have been uh that the a framework that's been imparted in your brain through life experiences. And those life experiences might not actually make you optimi have not been optimized for you to make a decision in a

1:16:21 Product review. And so the the the more you can pull that away, a good heuristic would be The same decision being made by multiple people in the company. gets the same result.

1:16:33 So you're removing a little bit of that almost like filter. You can almost think of that emotion as like a filter. So I like to have the raw image. come through the raw decision come through. So we can consistently Classify it.

1:16:46 Again and again, not to get too abstract, but I I don't know if that makes sense. Yeah, it makes sense. And Uh I have one last question, but uh There's an interesting trend I've noticed with a people talking about AGI. The missing Peace.

1:16:58 I've been hearing more and more is just emotions. Are What creates consciousness potentially. Michael Pollin has a new book out about consciousness, and his take is it's not just more intelligence, it's actually emotions. That led to the consciousness. I think

1:17:12 It's it's It's uh uh under Let's say um Undermining How complex

1:17:20 Human thought is. to think that it's just the let's say the, you know, inputs and outputs of or let's say association. For the lack of better word of Ideas, facts, words, letters.

1:17:33 It's not just as associations and uh And creativity is c kind of a little a little bit You know, of that as well. Like like with the old old saying of like Technical mastery. is mastering the complex.

1:17:46 And I think computers do that really well and creativity is mastering the simple. I'm sure I'm gonna eat my words on this as like the best artist in like three years. Yeah, yeah. And so I think uh and this again goes back to my philosophy of like uh consume broad you know, broad inputs.

1:18:05 But then try to remove that filter. see things as honestly as they possibly can, create a culture in the company that Is also similar. And doesn't put any weight on who the idea came from or where it came from, but then ultimately as a leader.

1:18:19 You decide. And by the way. You gotta be right. Like that's the other thing I think a lot of founders are just we're not we're we don't emphasize enough. Founders love to take credit for for things. Uh it's just human nature. Everybody does.

1:18:33 But they the the reality is you have to be right. It's not enough to just start a company. It's not enough to You know, have this vision of the world. You have to be right. And the the evidence is is the company a sustainable standalone business.

1:18:47 'Cause we're talking specifically about, you know, venture backed AI companies in Silicon Valley. All of my but I should have said this at the beginning. All of my you know, all my advice is specifically for that narrow group, which is which is founders of of uh of AI venture back companies in the Bay Area. Speaking of that, last question. I've been wanting to get to this because it's an interesting spicy take that you have as a last question. I know you have to run after this. You have this view that a lot of

1:19:10 COs in Silicon Valley don't actually have great taste. I'm excited to hear what your experience there and just what What you Yeah, I I I also want to be careful to imply that I do. I fall into that into that group. Uh I think uh you know The it is true because

1:19:29 A lot of t the c couple of reasons. Both both taste in the most, let's say uh you know, artistic sense and in the most speci like in running a company and like what should be the policy like HR policy for Point X. Uh, a lot of that is I think they're just not

1:19:46 Exposed. to a lot of interesting good things. And and uh That's been a theme in this whole conversation is like just just get more and more exposure. I it's very unfortunate when I meet somebody who and I'm not thinking thinking of anyone particular. So if this is you and you're one of my friends, I apologize. I don't I'm not talking about you. But it's like you know, you grow up in Cupertino. You go to Berkeley.

1:20:06 And you start and the first thing you do when you come out of school is you start a company and then that's that's all you do, you know, for twenty like you've never even been an employee. And why I think that's so important. Like I spent over a decade working in large organizations and like truly large, like more more than a hundred thousand employees. Like A general motors or like a Bosch. Uh and when you're in the

1:20:29 you know, the back alley of that organization, the bowels of those organizations. you learn how bad it is to be an employee. Like the bureaucracy above you, leadership doesn't know what's going on, the industry, you know, your antiquated tools, all this stuff. Why that's so important to he experience as an individual is then when you become a leader You're making policies and you're creating culture and you have to keep that in mind. And a bunch of founders we just never had the Frankly the

1:20:56 Fortune. of being at the bottom of the totem pole. And uh and that's just one version of how to you know that that doesn't obviously seem like, you know uh read re you know, uh w w consume the photos of uh Brissant or you know, Picasso or whoever it might be. Um but it's something similar.

1:21:15 There's something similar about You you can sometimes meet founders and maybe a good heuristic here is like There's some founders that would be good at lots and lots of things. actually not just being a founder of an AI company in the Bay Area. And there's something about taste there. Because what you're really what you're talking about is like understanding

1:21:33 humans and understanding life. And Then being able to discern. With some judgment. What is good and what's not good.

1:21:42 'Cause that's really what we're talking about. And uh and so if you if your if your if your life experience is very narrow You you could still be good and and you might or have the ability to discern what's good and what's what's what's not good. But I think like there's something about like if you've backpacked for a few years Around the world.

1:22:00 I somehow believe that's gonna be a better founder. It's like you know, I don't know how I can There's no peer reviewed research that I can that I can point to that that says that. So I think That's what I'm getting at. There there is some developing of taste. Yeah. Well uh I feel like we have uh helped people build their taste, build

1:22:18 feed their feed their model with more insights and different perspectives in this conversation. I feel like we could chat for hours, but I know you gotta run. Uh yeah, I'm not sure if uh there are any real takeaways other than that. Okay, we really we really went everywhere. I'm I I'm sorry if you had a particular line of questions you wanted to go down. We went in all the perfect directions. Okay, good. Casser, thank you so much for doing this. Thank you so much for being here. Um, final question, just where can folks find you online? How can listeners be useful to you? Uh, that's a great question. I mean, uh I love to hear what are books that I don't know. Um so that's uh that's always good. I've I've I've uh some of my favorite books have been just randomly kind of recommended to me. So uh I'd I'll I'll take that. Of course, um I I consume, you know, research as well. And so if there's something particularly novel that's going on, obviously all the mainstream stuff

1:23:07 we as a company and we as an individual are gonna consume, but things that are a bit off the beaten path, we're always looking for that. Um but yeah. Uh and then if you if you have a particular opinion about specifically our domain, physical AI, and how AI is gonna impact Mines, farms constru you know, construction sites, uh

1:23:27 Robotex, all of that stuff. I'm always interested to hear new new opinions on that, or even old opinions, maybe with a different viewpoint. So Uh yeah, if you if you see me, you can see me online, of course, uh I'm always around as well to I'm always always open to that feedback. And you're on Twitter now. There you go. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Follow me there. Yeah.

1:23:47 Yeah, exactly. That That's that's the answer. That's the call to action. Channeling my inner inner market. There you go. Castor, thank you so much. For doing this. For being here. Yeah, thanks for having me. It was a lot of fun.

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