The hidden power of introverts: How to thrive without changing who you are | Susan Cain (author of "Quiet")

0:00 I see introversion and extroversion in general as just two different kinds of strengths. The problem in our culture is just that we emphasize one type of strength, the extroverted strength, usually more than we do the introverted strength, but that They're equally valuable. There's probably not this binary thing. You're introverted, extroverted, the spectrum of introvertedness, extrovertedness. Do people move along this spectrum often? I feel like I've definitely become more extroted over time. I've had the exact same trajectory you just described. I used to be terrified of public speaking, now I do it all the time. I used to be quite shy, but That's not really describing, I don't believe, becoming more extroverted. That's more describing acquiring skills. As we grow and gain experience, we acquire all kinds of skills. What people most want is just like how do I become potentially more extroverted slash less allow introvertedness to hurt me in my career. This is a paradox that I have observed that the more introverts become like deeply comfortable in their own skin, that's when And they start to show up at the job interview or on the stage in a more powerful way because you're now there as your own true being.

1:05 As opposed to there always being a voice in your head saying, I'm not really supposed to be me. How can you help people believe this is actually true? That you can be just as successful being very true to yourself versus learning to be an extroverted. One of the most important things you can do Today my guest is Susan Kane. Susan is the author of the number one New York Times bestseller. Quiet, the power of introverts in the world that can stop talking.

1:33 Her books have been translated into forty languages, her TED Talks have been viewed over fifty million times. And she basically made me and every other introvert in the world. Feel okay about being an introvert. And showed that actually embracing that about yourself can unlock a ton of opportunity and success in your life. In our conversation, Susan shares a ton of very tangible advice.

1:53 For how to be more successful in business as an introvert, including what skills you should actually be building that don't come naturally to you. Also, what actually is an introvert, how to raise kids who might be introverted. And so much more, this was such a wonderful conversation, and so much of it resonated with me. This episode is for anyone who considers themselves an introvert, or if you work with people who are introverts and you want to learn how to help them thrive. If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes, and it helps the podcast tremendously. With that, I bring you Susan Kane. This episode is brought to you by Interpret. Interpret unifies all your customer interactions, from gone calls to Zendesk tickets, to Twitter threads, to app store reviews.

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5:08 Susan, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much, Lenny. It's so exciting to be here. I just wanna start with just from one introvert to another and from someone that would rather be sitting in a corner writing. versus being on camera talking

5:26 performing a little bit. Uh I appreciate you extra for for doing this and flexing your extroverted energy. Oh my gosh, absolutely. Thank you. And um I I know you haven't even asked a single question yet, but I just In response to what you just said,'cause you just identified yourself as an introvert.

5:43 That was actually a question I wanted to ask you because When I look at the work that you do in the world And the way that you do it. And I had never seen you on video before. I said to myself, I'm I'm sure Lenny's an introvert.

5:57 And the reason I thought that is because There's something about like the intensity with which you do your work and you're like so passionate about your subject. And you're Your means of success is by going

6:11 Super deep. into your passion and that's such an introvert thing. So I I was like ninety five percent sure. That is so funny. Uh I love that. I appreciate that. So okay, so l let me set a little foundation for folks. We kinda dove into stuff, but I think this will be helpful. Um

6:28 We're talking about introvertedness. What what is What do they clear sign you an introvert? Two questions you could ask yourself if you're not really sure how you identify. Um So one of them is uh

6:41 You know, how do you feel? Like imagine that You are going to a party. Or networking event. That you are truly enjoying. With company.

6:52 You truly enjoy. Um, if you're an extrovert, you probably find this like incredibly energizing and so after two hours or so You're looking for more because you're now hyper Energised.

7:06 And if you're an introvert No matter how much you love all those people you were just talking to. Your battery's probably away drained. And so after two hours you're Looking for the escape route. So that's kind of one question to ask.

7:18 And then another one would be If you Imagine. A weekend, let's say. Where you

7:26 Are totally free of social and professional obligations. How would you choose to spend your time? And how many people would be in the picture. And how well would you know those people? Like would you Well.

7:42 W would you be allocating your social time To just one or two close friends or family members, or would you be excited about um a party f full of people you don't know that well. tell you a lot about what your true preferences are. А най стрес

7:58 That phrase true preferences because For introverts in an extroverted culture. We spend so much time kind of unconsciously Adapting.

8:10 To what we think our preferences are supposed to be, that I I hear from many people that they kind of Have lost touch with how they actually prefer to spend their time. First of all, I love the two hour like heuristic as a thing I could just pay attention to after two hours.'Cause I could when as you were describing initially, like, no, that'd be really cool. Just like meet with bunch of interesting people for

8:31 Like if I'm an in econom. If I'm an extrovert, if I enjoy that, oh, maybe I'm an extrovert. But then it's like okay, two hours. Okay. And so clearly to me be like yes, I'll be exhausted and want to go do something else. Yeah, and don't you have the feeling of like you you wish you could just like push a button and be instantly home. I would love that. Like what I find is I just run out of steam, I just can't talk. I'm just like my voice is like I'm pushing it out.

8:56 That's really interesting. Okay. So another thought I had as you were talking is Uh I know it's It's probably not this binary thing, you're introvert, extrovert is the spectrum of introvertedness, extrovertedness. Is there anything along Those lines that's useful for people to hear just like how to think about the spectrum of introvertedness. Oh yeah, absolutely. So first of all there

9:12 is a term that psychologists have termed f um that have coined for people who really are kind of neither here nor there. They're in the middle of the spectrum. So that term is ambivert. And I think that does describe a fair amount of people. But then

9:27 What's also important to know is that even for people who are quite extroverted or quite introverted, like me. You know, we still have our moments when we're acting kind of Out of

9:39 Tape. Because humans are incredibly complex beings. So I feel like it's really important when talking about This topic.

9:48 It's like two opposite things are true. On the one hand, I really do believe that This question of how introverted or extroverted we are. shapes so much about the way that we

10:03 work and think and make decisions and love and interact and all the rest of it. It's like it's hugely important. Um, psychologists have called it the north and south of human temperament. So that's point one. But then Ані опасет са Humans are

10:19 Gloriously complex. And There's al always a danger in talking about subjects like this of I reducing ourselves and each other to

10:30 A label and then ex Expecting ourselves and each other to behave according to that label. In all circumstances. And that's of course a mistake. Do people move along the spectrum often. And I ask this because I feel like I've definitely become more extroverted over time. Like I used to be super shy and

10:48 very, very afraid of public speaking and big social things and I've just like learned To not be. As much, and I still definitely am. So is it common for people to move? Along the spectrum and did they move in both directions or is it usually from introvert to extrovert?

11:02 Okay, so first of all, I've had the exact same trajectory you just described. Like I used to be terrified of public speaking, now I do it all the time. Um I used to be quite shy. I I would say I am still a shy person, but it's not As much uh a top of mind everyday type of reality now.

11:21 That's not really describing I don't Believe becoming more extroverted. That's more describing Um acquiring skills. And

11:31 Also Managing fears. So And even managing fe learning to manage a fear is a type of skill. So what happens is

11:39 As we grow. and gain experience, we acquire all kinds of skills of the kind you were just talking about. But in terms of but but I still come back to that question I asked at the beginning of like how would you spend your time when you have no obligations? Um because

11:55 On that score, most of us actually become more introverted with time. And I don't know if You would describe yourself this way, but Like I remember for me, um Even though I was

12:08 A shy person, you know, I uh like in high school I would Come home from school and spend My whole evening. Talking to all my friends on the phone. And I would never do that now.

12:19 Um psychologists have studied this. People tend to mellow out over time. So If if you were let's say Uh the the third most extroverted person in your high school And then you go to your high school reunion forty years later.

12:35 Um you'll probably still be one of the most extroverted people in your class. But all of you will have Chill down and calm down. Quite a bit.

12:46 Um and that's that's a separate dimension from that dimension of Learning to be a public speaker and all that kind of stuff. That is so interesting. I never thought of it this way. I've always thought I'm getting more extroverted'cause I'm doing more Of this sort of thing and enjoying things like this board. So interesting to reframe it into I've just Learn how to cope and

13:05 be successful in these situations, but I'm still the same. And it's it's funny that you say that because I can't tell you how often people have said to me, Well They'll either say, Oh, you do public speaking so you never were an introvert, you're like you're actually an extrovert, or they'll say, Oh, you've gotten more extroverted with time. And I would say neither of those things is true.

13:26 It's Just a skill. Okay, this is something I definitely wanted to ask you about. So people hearing you right now. Uh

13:33 Hearing you be very confident, clear, just like not Coming across as an introvert, also watching your TED talks, probably seeing some of your other talks like It's not Like you don't seem like an introvert.

13:45 Uh I'm curious just how what your experience of being an introvert is that might give people a glimpse into okay, I didn't realize this about people. Because I think it's common to a lot of people. You see a lot of people that Are actually super introverted, but they don't seem that way. So just to give people an example of the stuff you've gone through, the stuff you deal with.

14:03 And then introvert that people may not. See what are some examples of that. Oh yeah. And and To your point, I can't even tell you how many people there are out there.

14:14 Presenting is is quite extroverted. And then because I have this funny role in society as like the world's confessor of introverts, um They all come up to me at conferences and things and tell me what they're really feeling and, you know, who they really are. And it's often like the people you would never suspect. Um Uh.

14:35 But yeah. Like okay. I mean if you Look at the way I just spent my day before recording this with you and it's now My time, uh four twenty four PM, so it's quite late in the day. Um

14:48 All right. I've not really spoken to many people today. You know, I drove my son to and from school. Um, my husband's out of town, so I didn't talk to him yet. Um And then I've been working

15:00 On my laptop and walking my dog. And that's been a really happy day for me. So Um I and I And in general, I'm like

15:10 Really, really happy. lavishing a lot of social time on my family or close friends, but I don't to you that much social like You know, technically social stuff. In terms of

15:22 Yeah. I'm not sure if you used the word overcome, but it was some kind of word like that in your question. M. So for things like this, you know, like super public facing stuff. That I really did have to learn how to get comfortable with.

15:37 Over time. And I used to be absolutely Terrified of public speaking. Like Like

15:45 lose five pounds before every speech kind of terrified. Um And I wanna say this for anybody out there who's listening who has this fear because it's a lot a lot of people.

15:58 That the miraculous thing is that This kind of fear As with any type of fear is actually Overcomable. Because

16:10 There's this uh Miracle kind of phenomenon. That psychologists call desensitization. If you have any kind of fear. Um

16:19 you can expose yourself in very small and manageable doses to the thing that you fear. And That's the way to neutralize it. So I signed up.

16:29 Be before my book Quiet came out. And I knew I was gonna have to really be out there in the spotlight. Um I signed up for classes for people with public speaking anxiety. And in these classes You just had to

16:42 Like you you'd start out by Standing up and saying your name and then sitting down again. Um and that would be the whole exercise for the class. And then you'd come back a week later and do a little bit more. And that's the way

16:54 to get over it. So I always encourage people, like sign up for Toastmasters or something like that, where you can practice speaking in supportive environments where the stakes are really low. Until you can retrain your brain that that the stage is not actually a saber toothed tiger, which is what your brain currently believes it to be.

17:13 Okay, so let me come back to this'cause I think that's what people most want is just like how do I become potentially uh more extroverted slash less Uh. allow introvertedness to hurt me in my career. But let me just ask you this question. It's kind of like um Can I actually stop you right there? Yes. I would just say like I totally get it that that's what people feel that they want.

17:33 But What we think we want is not always actually The way to the ultimate goal we want because I think what we really want

17:42 is to learn to be completely Comfortable. As ourselves. And I I will I know that sounds like a

17:51 You know? Bland or woo woo thing to say. But This is a paradox that I have observed through all the years that I've been doing this that But the more

18:02 introverts or anybody else become like deeply comfortable in their own skin. That's when they start to show up at the job interview or on the stage or whatever the venue is. In a more powerful way because you're now There As your own true being.

18:19 As opposed to There always being a voice in your head saying, I'm not really supposed to be Me, so I'm gonna Like pretend to be somebody else. And people can pick that up. And you can pick it up.

18:31 I think people Hear this idea that you T teaching your book. that you Can be very successful as an introvert.

18:39 And uh I bet it's Intellectually difficult to actually believe you can be as successful as an introvert. versus being an extrovert. Because You see all these founders, they're very charismatic, extroverted. You see people at meetings, all the loud, you know, and voices in the room always seem to get what they want.

18:56 How do you how can you help people believe this is actually true, that you can be just as successful being very true to yourself versus learning to be an extrovert. One of the most important things you can do for whoever's listening in whatever field that you happen to be operating in. is to look for people In your field.

19:15 Who have your way of being. Who are introverted and who are Powerful. And There are so many of them.

19:23 In every field. So Oh. Just to go back to the public speaking example for a second and but then I'm Gonna go out from there.

19:31 Um Like when I was getting started as a public speaker. For me, my my talisman person was Malcolm Gladwell because He's an incredibly captivating speaker. He's a self described introvert.

19:44 And the power of his speaking is not You know, being like the super energized showman. Um but rather he's a pretty cerebral person with a lot of interesting stuff to say. And I thought okay.

19:57 Yeah, and not not that my personality is exactly like his, but It's like okay, that that's kind of a way that I could be on stage. I can have interesting things to say that I'm very impassioned about saying. And this is true. Yeah.

20:09 You can look at so many different fields, so like for example, in finance. Somebody like Warren Buffett. Um He's a shy introvert. He has talked about this. And

20:20 A lot of the A lot of the The Engine of his success. is that he figured out how to draw in his

20:29 own introverted strengths. So for example, He is known for Spending hours pouring over financial documents. And he is known for saying that What

20:41 gets people to be really good investors, not so much IQ. as having the temperament to control yourself and take Prudent. Bets. Which is something that introverts are known for. There's all kinds of studies documenting this and showing

20:56 Introverted. Traders being especially successful and so on. Um he's also known for Yeah. Selecting

21:05 managers very wisely and carefully. And then really delegating and relying on those people. Which again is a hallmark of introverted leadership that we see in various studies and and examples. Um Now

21:18 Warren Buffett. was also somebody who started out as a shy public speaker. And he um signed up for one of those Dale Carnegie. training classes when he was like twenty one. And so he learned how to be, you know, this kind of folksy guy out in public.

21:33 Um And and so there's nothing I'm saying where That's against the idea of Like yes, you know, acquire the skills that you need to acquire. to be successful in your given field.

21:46 And yes, that might require Stepping outside your comfort zone to to acquire those skills. But There's a difference between acquiring skills And trying to be someone who you're not.

21:58 Those are really different things. So yes, acquire the skills, but then Like learn how to be You, you know, and whether you're a public speaker or a salesperson or a negotiator. Or a marketer or whatever it is, there's a way to do that.

22:15 in a kind of more thoughtful, more deliberative more analytical, more listening oriented style that can be incredibly powerful. Um the bottom line of everything I just said is like look for your role models because They're gonna show you that you can do it. It's such a powerful point. Just

22:33 what you see uh in the media of just here's all the successful people and y and just assuming they're all extroverts. Actually find folks. that are in your orbit that are successful that are also introverts.

22:47 to sh kind of show you, give you evidence you can be really successful and not have to become someone else. Oh yeah. And and you know, and if you're talking about the realm of founders and startup people, like there's just so many of them. Um, you know, especially like in the world of Silicon Valley. Um who comes to mind? And does examples.

23:06 Oh gosh. Um I mean like dating all the way back to, you know Bill Gates uh and that era. Um There I've just been so many.

23:17 This point of Um becoming more of who you are is connected to something that comes up a lot on this podcast of The power of connec of Leaning into your strengths and not trying to

23:27 Focus on your weaknesses. of just becoming more of leaning into the things you're good at and doing the things you want to accomplish through that. For example in my experience, I'm just like I don't I'm not amazing I'm not an amazing speaker. I'm not an amazing person to run meetings, but I'm much I'm really good at like after the meeting, here's like the doc of the meeting, here's the next step.

23:46 There's kinda like async follow ups and stuff like that. And I found The writing. Let me Uh accomplish all the same things with that. feeling like oh I need to become this amazing presenter. Absolutely. And I I I would say in addition to that, um

24:01 I don't think that that means that You need to be limited only to writing because I mean even just talking to you For fifteen minutes or so. Like I you know, I I

24:14 I get a feeling of like, okay, I'm talking to somebody who's extremely authentic, extremely uh intelligent, extremely knowledgeable. And those are all incredibly powerful traits that Modest introverts tend to discount. Mm-hmm. That's a good a good pushback and good reminder.

24:33 Yeah. Okay. Good. I wanna go back to the tactics you started to share of how to be successful in business as an introvert.

24:45 Because A lot of times companies aren't set up. To be Uh to uh for introverts to thrive.

24:52 And so I'm curious what either you have done or what you've seen people do as introverts to set themselves up for more success in a business career. Gosh, there's a lot we could talk about. I'll I'll give you a few ideas. I mean One is to

25:08 Find Ways to Make sure that other people No

25:17 How much you know and how much you're contributing. Um,'cause I can't tell you how often. uh company leaders will tell me that they they lose valuable people. Because those people Aren't good at

25:32 Self promotion. And then their contributions Are undervalued or they feel undervalued, so they end up leaving. And that Is not good for anybody.

25:42 Um Okay, so what can you do to do this? If you are somebody who is comfortable writing the way you are. you could start um a company blog or some other way of disseminating your expertise through writing that will thereby gain attention.

25:57 Another thing that you can do If you're either comfortable already with public speaking or are planning to Work acquire that particular skill. There's something in our culture where People who put themselves forward on a stage

26:12 gain disproportionate. Respect. So If you can put yourself forward to do it it it could be like two minutes, it could be five minutes. Um, you know, maybe you start a

26:25 A s uh a lecture series that At your company where you bring in speakers and you're the one who's always introducing them. So you're just on stage for like the two minutes that you're introducing them, but you're the one who Who put the whole thing together. That's the kind of thing that can

26:40 bring you a lot of prominence with kind of like disproportionate Bang for the buck. Um And that kinda thing is also a great way of just practicing these skills and getting more comfortable with them.

26:51 Okay, so that's one. Um a second one is Two I'm thinking of a a woman Kathy Fish who Until not long ago was the head of R and D at um Proctor and Gamble.

27:05 And Kathy's a self described introvert. And she talked about how her superpower was she was really good at connecting with people one on one. And building

27:20 deep connections in that way. So she wasn't the person who would like sweep charismatically into the room and everyone would know who she was. But it was like One by one by one by one she was building up all these relationships that as she got more senior in her company, everyone knew who she was, they liked her, they trusted her.

27:39 And that turned out to be incredibly powerful. Third idea. Quiet people Often Are misunderstood to be unambitious.

27:50 So if you're an ambitious person You have to make sure that your your colleagues know about that. So I would look for a mentor Um And ask for Ask if you could have ten minutes to ask their advice and most people

28:04 Love to be asked for advice. We're happy to give it. And Let that person know what your goals and hopes and ambitions actually are.

28:14 Um, you know. For one year, three years, five years from now. and ask for their advice on how you could get there. And They might come up with

28:23 You know, like one little strategy that will make a huge difference for you. Or they might start being the one to go to bat for you now that they know that That you have the ambition to To do XYZ. This is awesome. Okay, let me summarize some of the the stuff you've shared. And this is kind of like a list of things you as an introvert can do to be more successful.

28:41 in in your career and probably in your life. Uh and I I'll include all the things you shared because it's all useful. So one is look for uh a role model that's really successful, that's an introvert to show you you can do this. You don't have to be this extroverted charismatic CO person. Uh two is show your value. Make sure people actually see the value you're providing. Don't

29:00 Three is actually lean into public speaking and work on that skill. To your point. It's looked at very highly if you can do that okay. And your advice is just like do little bits. You don't need to give like a thirty minute All hands presentation, just like a a little bit of time on stage goes a long way. I'll g I'll give one recommendation I had this

29:19 uh person on the podcast and I found this public speaking course the most useful of all the things I've done. It's called ultra speaking. Mm-hmm. And it's very much based in uh doing it versus intellectualizing, can I speak better. And it's made up of these very low uh

29:34 risk games that you play with other people and you just Talk. Uh. without without much support and and it's very like low risk, but It's not the edge of scary.

29:44 And keeps kind of leveling up a little bit. Okay, and then okay, I'll keep going through the list. Four is connect one on one with people. So instead of just like I need to be amazing in this meeting. It's like make sure you connect with everyone one on one. in the company and they understand how often you are in

29:59 And you end up being more look more awesome when you're going one on one with people as an introvert. And then five is kind of make it uh Is the advice here around ambition, it's like Introverts are ambitious, but they may not understand how to achieve this ambition, so it's

30:13 Less like make it clear you're ambitious. More so. Come up with a plan. to achieve this ambition by getting advice from someone? Is that the advice? Yeah, and first of all I'm amazed that you could

30:25 Like I do that. I I don't know how you pulled that off just now. Quick notes. Um and I I would add to it to Make sure to kind of lean into your strengths. And I I was just thinking about your case of like

30:39 When I said that I look at your newsletter and I I was pretty sure you were an introvert.

30:46 It wasn't because Oh, this is a person who's writing for a living. That that piece actually hadn't really occurred to me. It was because You're so obviously someone who goes really deeply and really thoroughly into a subject of passion. And then

31:03 Yeah. It's almost like you're It it's almost like a little hero's journey. You're no you're like going into the forest of your passion and then you're bringing the treasures for the rest of us to enjoy. And this is something that introverts do. very naturally. Like we we tend to have one or two or three passions in our lives and one or two or three

31:22 People in our lives who are very devoted to you and we lavish everything in the direction of those passions and those people. And that is an incredible superpower. Um and so very often like if you look at Introverts who have become great leaders. In a broad variety of fields.

31:39 They're usually They're not the kind of people who When they were a kid everybody was like, That child is a natural leader, like they're they're not that person. Um, they're usually people who have these Incredibly deep passions.

31:54 And If you have those, you end up acquiring a lot of expertise and And building a network of people who have those same passions and inspiring a lot of trust from people who care about the same stuff that you do. And that's A real superpower. The way you describe it makes me want to just hire a company of introverts.

32:12 They go they spend all this time finding treasures for you and bring'em back. Quietly and very That's funny. But I actually I'm glad you said that'cause what I really do think and the research bears this out too. the best performing teams and companies really are a mix of both. Like

32:29 We so desperately need both types. Um and introverts and extroverts tend to really enjoy each other's company because we compliment each other so well and it's very easy to admire um strengths and traits that we don't have ourselves. So there's a kind of mutual admiration that goes on as well. Speaking of that reminds me of I don't know if this was in your book or a different book. There's some data that shows salespeople that are

32:52 more introverted or actually more successful. Does that ring a bell? I think that the most recent study I've seen shows the the most successful salespeople are ambivers. Um because they're like

33:04 extroverted enough to close the deal. Um, they're introverted enough to Do the listening that Good salesmanship usually requires. But Having said that, you could be successful any which way.

33:15 Um and in Quiet, my book. I I profile A guy who is like I don't remember the exact detail, but something like the leading um

33:25 Salesperson of the year of Cut Co knives. And he talked about how he would just go and do like these deep listening sessions with his customers and really figure out What they needed. And they trusted him'cause he

33:40 was authentically curiously listening to them. Um So yeah. That's which is to say there's Whatever strength you have, you know, you figure out how to maximize it.

33:51 That resonates with product work. A lot of people you know, a lot of part of the the job of a product leader is to figure out what to build and a lot of that is Talking to users, research and things like that and actually listening. And so it's interesting how similar that sales. Uh anecdote is to being a great product person. Something that's

34:08 uh this brings up for me is the p the importance of saying no to things as an introvert that are Uh Not things that bring you energy and will distract you from this sort of thing. Yeah, I I know Tim Ferriss is writing this new book called The No Book.

34:23 Uh I was listening to your interview with him, that's the way I had his in my mind. But I guess is there anything you've learned about just Or any tactics you learn about saying no to things that one Will de energize you and to just allow you to go deep on stuff that you want to go deep on. Well I mean you might have heard.

34:39 the following advice before when I first heard it, it came as a revelation to me. But it's When someone asks you to do something That is like three or four or five months away. there's a tendency to say yes to that because it feels so safely in the distance. So before you say yes, you should ask yourself how you'd feel if you had to do that thing. Tomorrow or next week.

35:02 Um And that's that's the real test. But also And we're Broad level.

35:10 I Okay, I love the psychologist, um Mihali Chick sent me hi, late psychologist. He did all these studies on creativity and wrote a book about it. Yeah.

35:22 At the beginning of this book he talks about how he approached all these deeply famously creative people who we wanted to study. And he said that he got back answers from some of them saying Your study sounds interesting, but if I said yes to these kinds of things I wouldn't do my create I wouldn't be able to do the creative work that I did.

35:44 Yeah. And that like leapt out at me and I think about it all the time now when I regretfully. Say no to this and that. that I often think about uh Naval has this Basically the same advice. He has this advice this insight that

36:00 You start doing something really well. You become successful. With it. You start getting invited to Parties and events and talks and Collabs.

36:09 You start Fa doing that. you have no longer you no longer have the time to do that thing that made you successful well. And it all falls apart. And the trick is don't fall for that and keep doing the work that you're doing.

36:22 I know. It's really tricky. It's very tricky because The thing is all w when you do go to those kinds of events, you actually usually do Meat. incredible people who you're really happy to know. Um I I mean in my experience and like Some of the people I've met at those kinds of events.

36:40 Over the years have become My best friends. So I just try to think of it really strategically. Like I'll I just pick You know, a few of those things that I say yes to and then I say no to all the others.

36:53 But but I but I don't like to say no to all of them because I do feel like There's something meaningful that happens at every single one. I'm more extreme than you. I actually created a policy with myself. Uh no events, no talks, no other podcast.

37:06 Just like The default is no and once in a while I break the rule, but that's what I find uh is that is what I need,'cause otherwise I'm just like, Oh, that'll be fun. Let's go to the dinner thing. Wait, wait, wait. This is fascinating. So like Okay.

37:18 You say how how often do you break the no rule? Pretty rarely. If it's like a work thing, you know, if it's like friends. Like meeting with baby or friend or something like that. But yeah, it's pretty rare. I try really hard'cause Partly'cause I get invited to a bunch of random B C stuff and Talk talk and podcast things. So I'd say like like maybe five percent of the time.

37:37 I break it. Interesting. Okay. Yeah, no, I understand. And I I actually do I still do um Well I used to do a ton of speaking for companies and schools and so on. Um, and I still do do some of that, but I have

37:51 Consciously. uh limited that so that I can focus on other projects instead. I find having a a policy where I could just tell people I have this policy that I just invented in myself is a really good way of saying no. Yeah, yeah.

38:06 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I I I I've gotten past the point of feeling Guilty about the no most of the time. Most of the time. Um Yeah. Because yeah, life really is

38:18 Just too busy. And especially if you're a parent. The way you are. Yeah. Um There's that too. Yeah.

38:24 I have this post where I shared all my tricks for saying no that will link too. That has a bunch of templates you can use and I I'm excited to see those book Tim First Rating,'cause I imagine he has to say no a lot. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. One other thought along these lines is also an evol uh lesson, and it's interesting how much these insights stick in my head and make it be

38:42 Like Change the way I operate. Has other piece of devices around networking? Because what you're talking about a little bit is like there's actually power in Meeting people. And networking, essentially.

38:52 And his advice is Instead of networking. Do things that are valuable. And people will come to you and want to meet you. Versus you trying to meet them.

39:02 And I found this to be absolutely true. I find it to be s so true also. Um and also even just for attending networking events like If you've done something valuable, those events are much easier because people want to talk to you about whatever their thing is. And you want to talk to them about their thing and And then all the other things that you didn't even know about each other.

39:25 But I don't know. My other mode or MO for networking. Types of events is I feel like

39:36 If I meet one or two or three people at one of those events who I truly, truly like, truly want to stay in touch with, truly wanna be helpful to I consider it a success and then I feel like I can go home or You know. I spent a lot of time in the hotel room after that. Whereas I have friends, I I see it. Like sometimes I'll

39:56 And I have friends who like make a point of meeting every single person who's there. And then we'll be talking a few months later and they'll mention such and such person like, Yeah, don't you remember they were at that event. And I have no idea who they're talking about. And so you like. Yes, it would be

40:14 probably like a more maximum value approach to meet every single person as long as you're there. But I don't believe that to be true if you're not wired that way. And and I think The power of Over a lifetime?

40:30 Of just trying to How? From every situation in life, like one or two people where the connections are true and deep. Over a lifetime? You have a a network that you really love.

40:44 Alright, shoot I gotta go to more Vince I guess. No no no, I uh oh my gosh. If it's I I hope I'm not making it sound that way because the truth is I go to, you know, so few. This episode is brought to you by the FundRise Flagship Fund. Full disclosure.

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41:56 Dot com slash flagship. This is a paid ad. I wanna I wanna come back to it. Yeah. One common I think challenge introverts have is in big meetings with loud voices.

42:09 having their ideas heard and even I like heard and then actually like acted on. Is there any thing you've learned? In those situations or tactics you've seen people implement that make them

42:22 More successful successful in these situations. Yeah. So one very helpful tactic is Two. Prepare in advance um for meeting a couple of points you might want to make or questions you might want to raise. Don't assume you have to be spontaneous the way other people appear to be. If you're more of a preparer, you should prepare.

42:42 And then also to give yourself a push to speak up early in the meeting. Um both because Ideas that get advanced early tend psychologically to be anchoring ideas that people pay more attention to. But also For you.

42:57 you'll start to feel more like you're part of things, you're more at the center of things. Uh people will be directing their eye contact towards you if you speak up early. And that becomes a kind of Uh virtuous cycle. So that's one thing.

43:12 Um Another is To realise that Yes, humans respond to the voice that's Loudest and deepest and all that stuff.

43:24 But As humans, we We also respond In an unconscious kind of way to others who are speaking from a deep sense of conviction. Like from a sense of truly believing what they're saying.

43:40 And that is a muscle that you can Strengthen. So I would say And Joe, even when you're not at the meeting, you know, get get into the habit of thinking Am I speaking?

43:51 From here? Am I speaking from a deep place? I I'm not talking about voice right now. I I I mean like Mentally, like I I when when I say that I love this movie, do I really believe I love this movie? Um And people will know it if you're coming from that place, so that you don't actually have to be the loudest person in the room. In order for people to pay attention. I just did a short meditation retreat and somebody there had this really interesting

44:15 Way of doing exactly what you're describing. Where he visualizes this like lightning cable. Going from his Yeah. Instead of unplugging it from his brain and plugging it into his heart.

44:27 And listening to that. Into your into where you're what you're saying. Uh yeah. It's just funny how that works. Um I think one of the

44:36 mean hacks to understand about how we humans relate to each other is How much we are picking up unconsciously. A thousand different cues that We're sending out without even knowing that we are.

44:53 And that's why speaking from that place makes such a difference. And and so So yes, it can be helpful to think about your tone of voice and all that kind of and your Gestures and all of that kind of stuff. But Okay.

45:05 I would start with what's actually there. With the substance. Uh and again this is a good example of why introverts are so valuable is the Th the I feel like it's probably easier to do that. To be

45:16 Kind of talking from your heart and and be authentic. This tip you shared of speaking early, I think, is really Interesting. It connects to this is gonna sound crazy and and weird, maybe. Uh there's this whole uh Uh pick up artists. world of just like I forget what the book was called where they wrote about mystery and this whole like

45:34 The art of picking up women. And one of the tricks that they share it with m guy. And I did not do this. This is just an interesting story. Uh is if you're trying to like talk to someone in a bar.

45:47 You should talk to them in the first five seconds of You seeing them and being Thinking you should talk to them,'cause once you keep thinking about it too much, you'll never do it. It gets super scary, you know, it only gets scarier. I think that's true in meetings. You just sit there and keep ruminating. Oh my God, am I gonna say something?

46:01 And the more you do it early, the easier it all is. Oh my gosh, it's so, so, so true. And it's so funny to apply it to that um setting, but it makes total sense. You're you're actually you reminded me of How I first discovered this technique. Um

46:16 You know, it it dates all the way back to I used to be a A lawyer, strangely, like many years ago. Um And in law school the way the classes were conducted, it was like You'd be sitting in this gigantic amphitheater of people and the professor would just

46:30 Calling you cold. And you had to answer all the questions. Yeah, exactly. Oh my God. And so my strategy to avoid that. Which I Did from like the first day was I would be one of the first people to raise my hands when they would ask for volunteers.

46:47 I figured okay if I've volunteered. There's one hundred and fifty other people sitting here. They're gonna call on those people. They're not gonna call on me who just volunteered. So that was my strategy. And not only

46:58 Do it work. In that way. But then I started to realize Especially if you're one of the first people who's ever spoken, like the professor w kept referring back to things I had said. Not'cause it was

47:10 The smartest. comment that had been made all year long, but just'cause it was one of the first ones. And so it sticks in the mind. So Just a One of those phenomena.

47:20 of human relations. And you also probably just like you're participating more and you end up being more successful in the class and get better grades. Yeah. So virtuous cycle again. Man. I love it.

47:32 Okay. What about from the perspective of a manager or founder that has introverts working in the company? W what advice can you share if to make the most of those of these folks that you probably might be not noticing or not paying attention to, no? First of all, I would think about How you're running your meetings. So there's a statistic from the Kellogg School that

47:50 Uh. In your typical meeting, you have three people. Doing seventy percent of the talking. Um But it's your company and you wanna make sure that

48:00 You're actually hearing from everyone'cause you want to hear the best ideas. So I would do things like Yeah. techniques like go around the room and make sure you're hearing from everybody.

48:12 Or if you have a specific person who you know to be thoughtful. And reticence. You might say to that person before the meeting. Um you know, hey Bob.

48:23 I know that You have a lot of great thoughts about such and such topic. Can I look to you to talk about that during the meeting? And now Bob is much more likely to like step up and talk about it. But also Um, for many introverts, we like to be able to process our thoughts before we articulate them.

48:42 So you've now given Bob advanced notice and he has more time to To pro to do the processing before speaking. Another technique you you could use is uh Like a kind of brainwriting where you Let's see.

48:56 Everybody has to Offer their thoughts on how to solve a problem. Um have people write their ideas out on post its and then you collect all the post its and And then you present them. And now all the ideas are out there without anyone having had to jockey for

49:13 Time or space. Um It's just the ideas on their own. Your introverts are gonna appreciate the following thing more, but it will benefit everybody. Um To make sure that you're giving everybody

49:25 Space to put their head down and work in a state of flow without being interrupted. Like that's huge for human productivity. But the introverts need it especially. So if you can create times of the day depending on your workflow.

49:40 Where there are no meetings or Whatever. Or people can work from Home on such and such a day or time. That can go a long way. Oh man, that super resonates what I did.

49:53 Uh when I had a regular job as I Well, first of all, we had no meeting Wednesdays, which was like the day everyone got all the work done. Yeah. And then the other thing that I worked on I I'll I just post a link to productivity tricks and one of them is around Deepork and I created this block on

50:08 Uh Wednesdays and Friday mornings for two hours. That it was just Uh Work deep work time and I labeled it do not book time over this or I will slap you. And it worked. And I did not get in trouble.

50:19 Okay. Be careful. Yeah, and I'm sure people appreciated the humor of it too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, that's that's genius. Okay, so just to reflect back the tips you shared, which are awesome, is one is just like actually ask everyone in the meeting just like, Hey, do you have anything you want to add? Make sure everyone has a chance, at least if they don't want to volunteer. Like if someone

50:39 you think is gonna have good ideas, just tell'em ahead of time. I just want to make sure you share this idea or you have a chance to Uh. Uh three is give people a chance to kinda write.

50:51 Ahead of time or in the meeting just like Create space for people just to write their ideas down and not have to like jockey for Raising their hand and sharing something and then everyone. Hands in there, their work.

51:02 And then um fourth grade. Deep work time. Yeah, people a chance to get into flow. Awesome. Okay.

51:11 Wanna go to Totally different direction. I know your I don't know if it was your second book or third book is for kids. Kids that are introverts. Mm-hmm. I'm I have a kid. He's one and a half ish.

51:23 Uh it's pretty clear to me he's an introvert. He likes we just we went to a birthday party, he just like went into the other room and played with the toys. Yeah. He often just wants to like observe for a while and then he starts to feel comfortable. Yep. Do you have any advice for raising an introverted kid?

51:38 Yeah, I mean we could talk about this for the whole entire time very easily. Okay, this will be the next podcast. Yeah, but what are some what are some thoughts? Yeah, but I'll I'll just give you like a few top line. Thoughts. Perfect. Um The first thing I always say is to understand that Introverted and or shy children. We

51:59 Taken A second to distinguish between introversion and shyness we have. Okay. And this is this applies to adults as well as kids, but Um introversion is more about Just like A preference to be in

52:13 Less over stimulating environments. You know, more mellow environments, like less Sound, less noise, fewer people. Just Fewer stimuli coming at you.

52:24 Um And shyness is more about the fear of social judgment. So It's like a It's a kind of over exaggerated response to any situation where you're being judged could be.

52:37 New people at a party, could be the public speaking, could be an interview. And it's you might have Situation A Evaluative situation A that doesn't bother you and evaluative situation B that really does. Um Because people are complicated.

52:52 So Anyway, for children. Whether they're shy, i. e. fearful of judgment, or whether they're introverted. I. e. I prefer to

53:02 play in a mellow way. Um The key for both of those kids is to Understand that they will tend to have a longer runway that they travel down before they take off and fly. And this is

53:19 This applies to A gazillion parenting situations. So like When it comes time to introduce your child to school. It is very likely from what you've just

53:29 Describe to me. Um you said it's a a boy, right? A boy, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So it's very likely that he is going to Be a little bit slow to warm up at the beginning. And Um it might be that

53:44 All the other kids get dropped off at the door of the school. Um, but your child might really want you to walk him all the way Down the stairs to his classroom. And that's okay.

53:57 Um It's not okay for it to stay that way forever, but Remember w when we were talking about desensitization with public speaking, where you do things step by step by step? So

54:08 You might like walk him to the classroom a few times and then say, Okay We're gonna do a game and tomorrow. Um I'm gonna walk you almost all the way, but the last two steps you're gonna do by yourself. And then you celebrate it with whatever little treat. Um

54:23 And then the next day maybe it's not two steps, maybe it's five steps. And like little by little by little You are moving away and he's going down that runway. And eventually he will get to the point where he doesn't even remember That he needed you to walk him into school.

54:38 And this is gonna happen again and again. Um When he's learning to swim. A lot of quieter children are uncomfortable with the water at the beginning. And you might feel as a parent like What did I do wrong? Because I see all these other kids who are just jumping in the water and and

54:53 And my kids not doing that. So first of all, give yourself a break. Um'cause this is natural. And second You know, you apply the same Technique.

55:03 You Maybe get to the pool on a day when there aren't a lot of people around, so it's not over stimulating. Quiet. And

55:13 And maybe the goal for that day is you're asking your child, Do you think you can Put your big toe in the water. And he puts his big toe in and yay, yay, yay. We're celebrating. Um and then you little by little go from there. And again, eventually you will not be able to tell the difference between that kid and the one who jumped in.

55:31 Uh right away. Longer runway. It's okay. Okay, so that was My first piece of advice um

55:40 My second is Self confidence comes from mastery. And not the other way around. So we tend to think You know, we live in a culture that's like really big on self confidence, so we see self confidence as

55:56 Is the key to everything else. Um But in fact, if you master A skill you become self confident as a result of that mastery.

56:07 Um And this is true for all children. It's especially true for quieter children. um you know introduce them to a lot of activities and figure out which are the ones they really truly love and gravitate to and excel in And those

56:21 will pay off great dividends in their Not just in their mastery, but in their self confidence. Um The third thing I would say is When they're feeling

56:31 Shy or uncomfortable? Just talk about it openly in a light way. It's not a big deal. Um, share your own experiences. You know, let's say Um A child afraid to go to a birthday party?

56:44 You know, you could say, Oh yeah, I used to feel that way too. Um it's really common. Here's what I would do when I felt that way. Um and you know what, I still feel that way sometimes. And You could say so what I like to do is I like to get to the party early before everybody else is there because then I feel more comfortable. So why don't we get there early today?

57:02 I do actually love to do that. Well there you go. Yeah, and a lot of kids do best. when when they're one of the first people to arrive'cause then they feel like It's not overwhelming and they own the space. Um but the key is that you're You're showing them that you

57:17 understand and they're cool with who they are and it it it just becomes no big deal as opposed to, you know, many kids. quickly absorbed from their society the idea that there's something wrong with their shyness. So you're trying to undo that sense of shame and stigma and make it No big deal. That is really helpful.

57:37 I forgot to ask you this question at the beginning, but I I'm really curious. What percentage of People are Introverts, whatever you label that along the spectrum. I've seen different studies. Some say it's thirty percent, some say it's fifty percent. It's always higher than you think. Um but it's basically one out of every two or three people.

57:56 So it's a lot. So it feels like one of the core piece of advice you're sharing. Is if you're an introvert You don't need to become an extro.

58:06 It's become more of who you are and you can be really successful in that. Yeah. I'm just gonna add to that while also making sure that you acquire the skills that you need. Like I'm not saying never step outside your comfort zone or, you know don't acquire those skills if they're crucial to what you're doing. Like public speaking the way we were talking about. Um

58:26 But bottom line. The goal is to To use those skills to be who you are. So I and that was an awesome point. So it's not just like okay, I don't need to be a good at I don't need to get out of my comfort zone ever I'm gonna be Uh the the amazing CO just being exactly who I am, your advice is not you actually do need to build some stuff.

58:44 Yeah. If the job you have. taken on or the career you've taken on is one that requires you to wake up every morning feeling dread because you're gonna be so far out of your comfort zone for so much of the day and so much of the week. Is it really worth it? In that case.

59:05 I mean you you basically Want a life where you're Waking up looking forward to what you're doing. Yes, with the With obstacles along the way, but

59:16 More or less, you should feel like you're in the right zone. So the advice there is find work that connects with your introvertedness as much as your temperament. Yeah, same same for extroverts. Yeah. work in this company of like very introverted engineers and everybody's super quiet and heads down and I'm going crazy. So that's not right for you either.

59:37 Mm-hmm. Yeah, and it's not like you can't like What this makes me think about is we did a test of all the PMs that Airbnb was there, like a personality test and It's interesting how it was all over the map and there wasn't like you need to be this like energetic, charismatic person. You could be just a thought, quieter person and

59:55 Those people were just as successful. Absolutely. A big part of your advice is figure out More of that, like connect to your introvertedness and

1:00:05 Well and And you can be very successful there. Is there any advice just like how what to do to do that to like what should you be looking at? Which parts of you should usually be like, Okay, this is where I'm strong and I should be

1:00:17 leading into and this is how you can become the best More successful people in spite of my introvertedness. I mean I might start by just asking like what do you What do you like to do? How do you like to spend your time, um What are you most interested in?

1:00:33 Um Again that question of If you had no social or professional obligations, how would you be spending your time? Basically you just need a really honest conversation with yourself of of what you like to do. I love that it comes back to your

1:00:47 kind of heuristics at the beginning of just If you had a free weekend, how would you spend that weekend? Yeah. And then would you do like a pie chart of the activities to give you like here's how I want Wanna generally Spend my time like

1:00:59 twenty percent social Mm. Forty percent on my own. Is that is that like one way to think about it? You know, that's funny,'cause like you were mentioning Tim Ferris before, um, and I remember when I was talking to him on his podcast Um

1:01:13 Like he kept asking me, like, Okay, do you have a system for this and a system for that? And he's like, You know, I'm I'm not a systems person the way you are. Um, and like I I think his systems are super helpful. I just I just t tend to have a different approach. Like a more um Just Intuition based approach or something, just like what what feels right.

1:01:33 Um And what feels wrong. And if you Ask yourself that simple question, I think I think you know. That's actually a like that alone is an

1:01:43 It connects to something I often try to do, just asking yourself, does this feel Right, or does this feel wrong? Some advice I recently heard along these lines, another way to ask this question. Is what is my body saying? Yes. I was invited to do this talk and I was just like, I guess it could be good for the newsletter if I do this thing.

1:02:01 I Like I actually used your piece of it, the w the the trick you used of if this were tomorrow would I Excited. No, definitely not. And then she actually's like, Here's another trick I use'cause I told her that. That's how I decided not to do She's like, Yeah, just like what is my body saying and I was like I

1:02:19 No, definitely not. My body does not. Like the idea of it not happening made me feel really relieved. Yeah, that's that that tells you so much. And I guess what I would add to that is also um You need to distinguish between like The goal Um

1:02:36 What it would take to Okay. So I'm thinking of a young woman who I talked to after she gave a successful TED talk and had a successful book and And she wanna she was trying to figure out like what the next step should be on the And the coattails of these successes.

1:02:53 And um And what she said in the course of our conversation is Like she knew that she could build a whole company around Around her ideas that were now out in the world. But she knew from experience that she had had working at other companies that she wouldn't

1:03:12 actually be happy having to like wake up and run a team every day. And so she knew whatever I do Um, it's not gonna be Based on like team management. Like that that needs to not be part of the picture.

1:03:26 And I thought That was a really useful way to look at it. Because it wasn't I think she would have loved to actually have the company and Yeah. But

1:03:35 product out into the world that the company would have made. But she wouldn't have enjoyed her life to get to that goal. And so that question of do I want to wake up in the morning doing what it takes to reach that goal? It is a really big one.

1:03:51 The there's two things that brings up for me. One is I had uh the co founder of HubSpot on the podcast, which is like a Gabillion dollar business at this point and he had a conversation with his co founder early on and he told him I never want to manage anybody And even up to today he has never managed any there's nobody under him at the company and he's still the co founder, still operating. On his own.

1:04:12 Wow, that's fascinating that he could pull that off. Yeah, he's a fascinating guy. We're gonna link to that episode. It's so interesting. Uh the other is I made a role for myself with this new life Along those lines that you just shared, which is I never want to have Full time employees. Yes.

1:04:27 Me too. Me too. I did the exact same thing with my Zub stack. No, none. Yeah. Yeah. And I do have different people who I work with. Yeah, same. Um and including like um

1:04:38 My colleague Renee and I have been working together for like ten, eleven, twelve years. Um Amazingly. But it's like a very loose type of working structure and that's what works for us.

1:04:48 That's exactly how I operate. And it And it's like the major downside is people sometimes leave'cause they're not full time and there's like, Oh, here's a whole full time role that they found. But I find people want this. They like they prefer to be a part time Flexible thing, not this is their life and this is all they're doing. I think a lot of people like that too.

1:05:05 It's such a but like there's always this temptation, okay, but what if I've one person and then they just do so much for me? I think it It also limits just how much work you take on, which is really healthy. It's so funny because when I started my Substack, um I talk to um

1:05:19 Now colleagues. And I remember saying to him, you know, if I If in a few months I wake up and my day consists of going to meetings, then I'm gonna know the whole thing where I I I went down the wrong path. And this was a mistake.

1:05:34 Um so We have to build it in a way where it's not about that at all. Along those lines I have a rule of no meetings before uh three PM. To reduce the number of meetings I have, except for podcast episodes that we do sometimes in the mornings. And that helps me there. Yeah. Uh

1:05:49 Funny enough, I when I started the newsletter and it started doing well, I was like, Okay, this is awesome. What a life. Just write a newsletter once a week and make a living. And so I had this rule. I'll never do a podcast, I'll never do a course, I'll never do a conference, I'll never do a book. And I've actually crumbled and done almost all those things. The only thing left is a book. That's really funny. Doing.

1:06:11 Yeah. Or or were your initial instincts correct? Uh the podcast I I am very happy I did it. It's extremely cool to have the dynamic of the newsletter on the podcast. Energy wise.

1:06:24 It is it takes Like energy. I have to like pull in the extrovertedness side of me to I get it. Yeah. So yeah, it's better it's mostly great, but I do have to like

1:06:39 I have to like get up to do it, you know, like hide myself up into it. I so so understand. And then the course I decided not to do it. It was like too much of that. So stop doing that. The conference was awesome. Probably we'll do it again.

1:06:52 In the book still have resisted the book. Wouldn't the book be more along the lines of what you like doing? Like you can sit in your cafe. You think, you think. The problem is it just would be too much work. It's just like the load of as you know. I do. I think it took you seven years to write your first book, is what I

1:07:09 Oh yeah. And then yeah, and then well, my second book was the one for kids. That didn't take quite as long. Um, but then my third book, Bittersweet, was the same thing. I took like seven years and um I just sent in a book proposal to my agent. Like two days ago for another book, um which will undoubtedly take Five or six or seven years. Um, and I have wondered how I'm gonna do it together with the sub stack, but I don't know. I feel very impassioned about both, so I think it's fine. Yeah. You have to really want it.

1:07:37 Part of the reason I don't wanna do a book is all the Talks I'd have to do to promote it after. Oh I so understand. I think that's part of the reason I take as long as I do to write them,'cause I'm like dreading the promotional period. I'm just putting it off. Yeah, man. Well I'm

1:07:54 I'm impressed you're you overcome that. I mean for me my My dream always was to be a writer, so that was like the primary, primary So I'll overcome anything for that dream.

1:08:07 I get that. Okay. Susan. We've covered Everything I wanted to cover. Is there anything else that you think might be helpful to leave listeners with that especially introverts?

1:08:18 that are trying to be Successful. Fear about their own. Their way of the world. There is uh

1:08:28 And A phrase, an aphorism, a saying from Gandhi. Uh who said who is very shy and very introverted, by the way. Um like extremely His autobiography.

1:08:39 Very fascinating. Talks a lot about this. such a shy kid, he would run home from school after class because he didn't want to have to talk to anybody. He was really like that his whole life. He was just He was one of these people I was talking about who

1:08:53 You know, had a very deep conviction and then attracted other people who shared that deep conviction. Um and so He said In a gentle way you can shake the world.

1:09:04 And I deeply believe this to be true. That's uh that's an excellent role model to think about in that going back to your other exercise. Gandhi. Uh as a as an introvert. Did not know that. That's awesome.

1:09:16 Uh, Susan, with that we've reached our very exciting lightning round. Are you ready? I'm ready. First question. What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most? To other people.

1:09:28 So I was talking earlier about the psychologist Mihali Chik sent me hi. Uh He famously wrote a book about flow. And it's and and flow is

1:09:41 the state of mind you get into when you're like totally engaged in an activity and you're completely absorbed by it. And you're feeling neither bored nor anxious. You're just In it. And and the book just like

1:09:55 describes all the research on the state and what it is and I it completely changed my life. So I recommend that one all the time. And also The Power of Myth by Joseph Campbell. Mm-hmm. Um

1:10:07 Hm. Yeah. Just a great mythologist and completely fascinating and uh Hero's journey.

1:10:14 Here is Journey. Yeah, and he talked about The need to Part Participate joyfully in the sorrows of the world, which I really believe in. Which I know yours.

1:10:25 Third book was about. Yeah, that's right. Uh Bittersweet. Bittersweet. Maybe you can find it on Amazon or your local retailers.

1:10:33 The floatbook. Can you say his last name again,'cause I think nobody actually knows how to pronounce it and I love that you say it so comfortably. It's uh yeah,'cause my agent taught me how it's you d you you go cheap. Like your cheek. Oh my God. Sent me high. So that's more or less how you pronounce it. Oh my god. What a wonder.

1:10:52 Tip right there. Okay, next question. Do you have a favorite recent movie or T V show that you've really enjoyed? I never have anything recent, but um so my husband and kids and I Just watched The Sopranos recently. I had never seen it before and we loved it. Um

1:11:09 And I also just recently saw the talented Mr Ripley, which I know it's really old, but So so good. Wow, I love how old these are. I know. I know. But like I basically like

1:11:24 Anything that you see where There's just something dazzling happening in it. Like Jude Law's performance in The Talented Mr. Ripley is Pure Enazzlement, if that's a word.

1:11:35 This connects the advice I often hear, which is don't read books. That are either read books that are just like Very New or like ten years or older. I think that's the advice. Like don't read books that are sort of Uh,'cause you want to only read things that have been that have survived and people continue to come back to quiet, I think, is definitely an example of that.

1:11:52 Mm. Thank you. Yeah, I do think there's something about that, like that Yeah. If survived that long, it's It's for a reason.

1:12:00 Yeah. Well. Oh we have to I Okay, can I say something that will not be lightning roundish? Sure. Okay. There's this um

1:12:12 I guess it's organization or institute. It's called the Tugboat Institute, I think is the official name. Anyway, it's basically. It's four Found of companies. Who

1:12:25 Are not interested in In starting their company and then making a quick exit three years later. These are people who are trying to build something evergreen and something built to last. And so this is an organization for the founders who have this mentality. And Um I've talked

1:12:43 To the head of this organization I'm I'm actually going to be speaking there. In June or July. Um And he told me that they have tons of introverts.

1:12:52 in this group of CEOs. Like I do think there's something about That mentality of seeking The timeless and the evergreen. Yeah. is one of those underappreciated strengths.

1:13:04 That's awesome. That sounds like a sweet place to be. Yeah. Hopefully not too many extroverts get in there and they're just like what the hell's going on here. I don't want to be here. Okay. I'm gonna keep going with the lightning round.

1:13:15 Yeah. Okay. Is there a favorite product you recently discovered that you really love? Whether it could be an app? Could be something, but Difficult some laying around the house. I I w I will say the

1:13:27 The art of roasted vegetables. Cool. Yeah, I've I've started roasting my vegetables with

1:13:35 Tons of Spices of all kinds, and it's such a revelation. And it's not a gadget, you just roast them in a cooking cooking cheek sort of thing. Yeah, I just like toss them with olive oil and maybe some lemon juice and almond slices or Curry or whatever I feel like doing. And

1:13:51 It's like candy. So good. Interesting. So that and this is just like uh easy way to eat healthy and taste good. Yep. What I'd like to I I just read this book, Good Energy.

1:14:02 I don't know if you've heard of this. It's about it. Uh what foods give you good energy and what foods are bad energy. Interesting. And it's based on metabolic health and blood sugar and which ones spike you and Help you and uh You're eating good energy food. Yes, yeah.

1:14:16 Take away. Okay, two more questions. W do you have a favorite life motto that You often come back to find really useful in work or in life, maybe share with friends and family. Yeah, I mean I will give the one that I

1:14:30 Was the Dedication to you and the inspiration for bittersweet. Um this is a quote from Leonard Cohn. Who said uh there's a crack in everything? That's where the light gets in.

1:14:42 I love that. Yeah. Yeah, you really should. You probably have amazing ones collected. So many. Oh man. Uh final question. You have a very active sub stack. I'm uh very impressed with how Often you publish, it's very hard.

1:14:59 Where can people find it and just what should people know about the sub stack that you started? Oh, um, well it's called the Quiet Life dot net. So that's where you can find it. Um, and it's basically a place for people who want to live In the realm of uh In the realm of the quiet and

1:15:18 Thoughtful and sensitive and bitter sweet. Um I've kind of been exploring that realm for twenty years and This is a place to be with other people who are in that realm also.

1:15:29 Um and so you know, some of the time I'm posting things about Tips along the lines of what we've been talking about for Through this podcast. Um And sometimes it's more uh

1:15:41 I don't know. Just like Sharing art and poetry and things. So like tomorrow um Posting an exclusive excerpt from Sahel Bloom's new book, The Five Types of Wealth, about um how much time do you have remaining with your loved ones and

1:15:57 How are you spending that time? So It's I I I would say it's like dedicated to How to live a good life from the perspective of The quiet and the thoughtful and the

1:16:10 Sensitive. Sounds like a a wonderful place. Quarter of the Internet. Um how do people find it? Just so we can link to link to it in the show notes too. Yeah, so the Quiet Life dot net.

1:16:21 Um Or I guess if you go to Substack and just look up my name, you could probably find it there. Um But yeah, it's become a huge

1:16:32 Like I'm able to write to people who have been reading my stuff for years, but now we have a Dialogue and a community and Um I think people really feel like having a place to go that

1:16:47 Is A very specific wavelength that you can't find elsewhere. Can be something special. And I know I feel that as the of the person writing into it. Okay, final question then is how can listeners be useful to you? I usually ask how do people find you online. We just talked about that, so I'm skipping that question.

1:17:03 Uh how can listeners be useful to you? I don't know. I guess I would say th you know, the The sub stack that I'm doing is my is my baby and my labor of love. So if you want to partake of it, I would love to have you there. Awesome.

1:17:17 Susan, thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for having me. Absolutely. So nice. Just introvert connection. Yes. Exactly. Um Okay, bye everyone.

1:17:31 Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show. at Lenny's podcast.com See you in the next episode.

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