Inside TikTok: Culture, strategy, monetization, and more | Ray Cao (Global Head of Monetization Product Strategy and Operations)

0:00 We rarely get a peek into what it's like to work at TikTok. What are some core principles or values or just how TikTok operates? The number one thing is contacts no control. That's really why we're always encouraging people to think themselves as a business owner. You give them all the information they need and then let them Just do things without specific instructions. How do you actually solve the puzzle by connecting the all the dots together? Just like how I see some of my uh friends, their kids playing Lego. If you don't really see the full picture, you won't be able to make the Lego as a one thing at the end of the day. You have to see the other pieces. What else are important cultural values of TikTok of how TikTok operates that everyone always has in mind when they're building? We always have this mentality, we are a startup. We are a young company. We always hunger for growth. In a very wacky way is like how can I run my second half of my marathon faster than the first half. Today my guest is Ray Thao. Ray is the global head of monetization product strategy.

0:55 and operations at TikTok. Where he's been for over four years. Prior to TikTok, Ray spent six years at Google. Helping scale Google shopping globally. TikTok is interesting for two big reasons.

1:07 One, it's one of the most successful businesses in history. Less valued at over eighty billion dollars. And its parent company is the most valuable private company in the world, last valued at over two hundred billion dollars. Two, TikTok is quickly becoming one of the biggest advertising platforms, alongside Meta and Google. And generated nearly$10 billion in advertising revenue just a couple years ago. So for both these reasons, TikTok is a really interesting business and team to learn from. And I've seen very few podcasts and even media get a peek inside how TikTok operates. In our conversation, we discuss TikTok's culture, their core principles and values, how they hire.

1:45 How they move so fast. Their emphasis on working hard. How they do OKRs and planning. We also get into how to succeed on TikTok's ad network. Why you wanna be testing at least ten videos a week?

1:56 How it's different from running ads on Instagram. How to make content that does well on TikTok. And so much more. This episode has a lot of interesting lessons and insights. Obviously TikTok is at the center of a lot of debate globally. Some people love it, some people hate it.

2:10 But no matter your opinion of TikTok, there's a lot that we can learn from their success. If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow the podcast on your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. It's the best way to avoid missing future episodes and it helps the podcast tremendously. With that I bring you Ray Cao after a short word from our sponsors. This episode is brought to you by Work OS.

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4:46 and tenx your experiment velocity. Let's get EPPO. dot com slash Lenny. Ray, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

5:00 Thank you, Lenny, for having me. It's a pleasure. It's my pleasure. I am really excited to have you here. Because it feels like We rarely get a peek into

5:08 What it's like to work at TikTok. How TikTok built product and operates. Also how to be successful on TikTok as a business, as an advertiser. So I've all these kinds of questions. for you and so I'm really happy to be chatting. I wanna just start with

5:22 A little bit about your time before TikTok, which was at Google and kind of comparing that to TikTok. So you were at Google for six years, I believe. Now you're a TikTok. I'm curious what stood out to you about the cultural differences between how Google operates and TikTok operates. Three major things, I would say.

5:39 Number one is really how these two company are thinking about Innovation. Right, so I think Google has a very uh strong philosophy of

5:50 you know, we're engineering that and it there was a lot of technology tribal and a lot of pieces they are not necessarily Always uh trying to uh say cope with the market even

6:02 Right. However, I think at a TikTok I think Uh, besides the technology part We do have a very

6:09 I'll say Appetite. to really understand what the markets really want. And also how can we really service our clients in a better way? And the class here is not necessarily only for advertiser.

6:21 including our user and also creator all together. So That's one of the things I think it's very different in terms of TikTok way of Work is very customer centric. in a way. And again, the customer here is not necessarily only for

6:35 the business partner, but also for our regular user and the creators on the platform. And the second one is really thinking about how we uh take approach on uh product development. Right. So A lot of times that, you know, uh we take a very rigid uh approach in terms of product development.

6:54 And oftentimes you see us that, you know, experimenting a lot of different things. Uh at all the same time. And also we do have a lot of uh engineering and ladder project in the backhand. To really understand how can we optimize better uh for the platform. So

7:09 A lot of time these are the things that I think TikTok is doing really, really well. The last piece I have to say is the approach for Global prioritization? Right.

7:19 A lot of times that you see a US born company go global. And oftentimes still they are really like rooted with the US market. And there's nothing wrong with it, to be honest, because this is the biggest market for for them.

7:33 as a I was say Far East born uh company. I think a lot of times that we can take approach with truly how do we think about Globalization. And for example, we launch a lot of product not necessarily first Yeah, North America.

7:47 We launched it in uh South East Asia, for example, for our shopping uh really like very big initiative in internally for shopping. and uh we launched uh our really like uh creator fund here in the North America. uh we launch our gaming approach really like service our EUI uh game advertisers really really strong over there.

8:07 So There are a lot of different approach in terms of how do we in like prioritize our Go to market. And also product development. So that's the part I feel like, you know, we're very unique in the market.

8:18 Uh or you need to Some of the That was a tech company. born uh in the US. It reminds me there's this piece by this uh

8:26 smart guy, Eugene Way, who wrote a few things about TikTok over the years and just like why it's been so successful. And one of his really big points is that TikTok can work really well in other markets because it's basically you don't need to know a ton about the market because it's this algorithm that figures out what people in each market want. Is there anything along those lines you've seen that just has been really fundamental?

8:47 Two it working so well in many different markets. The the algorithm is definitely helping, right? It's because it is basically the machine is doing a lot of heavy lifting. Uh, that's actually I think across the board on a technology company today. The differences is actually how much you are willing to take the heavy lifting over there in the market.

9:06 By that I mean really like sending your troops into the market. hiring your local talent. Understanding the culture. and really understanding the behavior from from those users.

9:17 I understand, like the machine can do things. But also at the same time that to actually get local talent to fine tune the machine. Right. So there were a lot of a conversation about How I will say technology is able to change our life.

9:31 But I do think that At the end of the day, I do believe technology is a tool. So if we do have a ambition to go global, you have to do one more thing is actually Take your step into global.

9:42 Right then. having the machine to the heavy lifting, you have to really understand in local culture. I had a fun background, uh for my first job is to really doing like uh go to market research. in the South East Asia area. I think there was only

9:56 One thing uh opened my eyes after a year and a half in this career path is Different markets have totally different I'll say Coucher. And these market behaviors are actually

10:08 coming out of this culture. Uh one of the fun example I always been using was Uh, I was doing market research for one of the suppliers for turner and also these Inca packages. For talent.

10:21 as a uh like a go to market research. One of the things is always concerned to my at that point the uh decline was There's

10:32 They cannot figure out why. Their premium product Cannot So In Thailand.

10:39 And then we just figure out like, you know Because the the quality of their their printing machine and also their intercartridges are premium. And uh the quality of the paper and everything is very good. But when you actually do talk to those

10:53 consumers in those markets. The answer is very eye opening. They literally told me at that time is I don't care. I don't care if your in cartridges or your printer is at a premium uh quality.

11:05 Maybe the printer I can use, but I can use compatible ink touches or tuner for that. Because My Consumer won't care.

11:13 About your Principality. Or the majority of my cognitive won't kick. So In that case

11:20 You should not necessarily worry about if you are a premium product. It's actually more about how long How durable, how reliable. You're able to print things. And people can read.

11:30 So I think these are the insights I think a lot of times it will be Uh neglect. from some of the clients or, you know, the the manufacturers or even the the owner of the business because They think that, you know, we want to serve this sacramentation. But however, the segmentation is that big.

11:47 in this area. Right. So That's really like the you know, the culture is really the key part. From the market. If you don't understand the culture Well, you won't be able to understand the behavior. over there.

11:59 It's more about that, I think. when we say about uh globalization or take the product go to market in a global scheme. Or even boot in the card. Have to Yeah. your hands dirty and to really understand the local culture so that you can understand local behavior.

12:15 I love that advice. The way you described it, which I love also, is that you kind of have to fine tune the algorithm and the product to work in different cultures. There's an example of how that was done with TikTok, like a tweak that had to be made or some kind of fine tuning that happened. For to work. In a different market.

12:32 Yeah, I think uh we did a lot of uh fine tuning on our uh user product side to really think about content. Right. So that's the number one thing. gonna be super differ super different coming from each of the market and also from each of the culture. Right, for example

12:47 being Japan. How do you actually get more content that are relevant for the culture. lot of people may think, Okay, uh are you guys only doing Dancing or doing singing for

12:58 Or Japan. The answer is not. It is actually more food. on the on the TikTok side. Like how do you actually introducing new food restaurant or

13:07 uh new recipes. And also sometimes that you're introducing a new technology, uh I was saying three C product, the consumer pr consumer electronics product. Over there. So these are the content getting really popular.

13:19 Sometimes in uh in South East Asia or even Japan area. And versus In the US, as we everybody knows that, we're starting from Uh, really like lip syncing at a very early stage.

13:30 But now really there we're expanding to shopping behaviors and also a lot of people using us as a really main platform to acquire a new discovery uh for the product, right? So These are the these are the things I think yeah. different market definitely deserves

13:46 Yeah. demand different kind of a treatment. And if you are able to do this a lot, you're able to find success over there. That's really interesting because you could think it's just this algorithm that figures everything out for you, but I think What you're pointing out is you have to seed it with the right sorts of

14:00 use cases that that culture is most excited about. Another good example will be creative, right? So it's a very good example how human can work with technology together. Uh we have a ton of creatives. And we have a ton of content, right? So

14:14 Of course we use machine to label those contents. uh using metadata to analyzing those content. However, a lot of times you can find that, you know, when we're really thinking about How creative can help advertisers? humans actually make a more

14:27 interesting or more, I'll say Influencing. over there. For some of the verticals we can say that oh You know what?

14:35 Maybe we can try A uh Cooper image. With a new product uh like a a uh a sticker on the top.

14:44 This maybe actually work better compared to some of the Price promotion even. So A lot of things is is really depends on how do you actually interpreting the numbers and interpreting the data points, but also at the same time your business

14:58 Acoon is gonna be very important here. to make a judgmental call. For some other situation like that. I think we still rely a a lot on both machine and also our own Experts.

15:08 to analyzing those trends and give it the recommendations. Awesome. Okay. So there's a few threads I'm gonna follow later. You talked about the product development process, so I'm gonna wanna spend time there. Also about how to be successful in TikTok, both as a Creator also is a business. I'm excited to hear your advice there. But I want to spend a little more time first on

15:25 Just what it's like to work within TikTok and the culture of TikTok. What are some core principles or values are just like how TikTok operates. If you had to identify like here's the ways that we all think about what we want to do right and the most most important to our

15:40 Day to day work. What what words and concepts come to mind? The number one thing uh reasoning with really, really well with me is Context no control. Oftentimes when we're looking around uh companies Different sizes.

15:54 Well you We're looking at how to collaborate it. Oftentimes we see the behavior that A lot of people just working on a smaller piece. Based off their job description.

16:04 Right. So hey, you're working on go to market. And you're working on data analytics. and you're working on this book of a business uh e commerce and you're working on auto industry, for example. A a lot of times that this

16:17 A human made Silos. It's actually slow say stuff. Right, because humans are not or our our talents.

16:26 They're not supposed to be categorized into a different basket. They may have their own Majority responsibility, for sure. But we don't want to Yeah.

16:34 capta into this kind of a box we created. That's really why we're always encouraging people to think out of the box and think more. And think themselves as a Business owner.

16:44 rather than a you know, uh a piece of machine like keep the machine running. Oftentimes that we say context no control. That means you actually can go above and beyond to really think about your

16:57 Full Business problem. as your own problem. And your piece is maybe one part of it to solve the puzzle. But how do you actually solve the puzzle by collecting the all the dots to get?

17:07 we're encouraging other people to think a like that way. And by that, I think we kind of a mentally break out those walls. So encouraging our team members to do A little bit more thinking. It's very important. It's a little bit more thinking.

17:20 Because the think part is very important. Right. And then No. In terms of getting things into behavior or changes or get into action

17:29 then you need to really collaborate in with other teams because We don't want it necessarily creating You know, hey, you're on other people's working group now, you're actually stepping on other people's toes now. It is not the situation we're trying to encourage in.

17:42 But we're encouraging more is context no control, thinking more about How you can change it. And then we do really actually take some actions. Be active. You reach out to the who is who's supposed to be the owner of that and then have a discussion.

17:55 Right, so then you can able to really like You're able to connect the network all together. So that's one thing I think it's very unique to our culture. I think it's very, very important for us to continue to grow. at this speed because everybody have a

18:09 Also full visibility. To the mindset. uh how they can contribute. And the key there is context implying you give them all the information they need.

18:20 And then let them Just do things without giving them. specific instructions. Hey, I need you to hit this goal, work on this project, launch this thing. It's Here's what we know. Do the things you think are best, roughly. I know it's not just like anyone does anything.

18:33 But that's I imagine that's kind of the implication there. Yeah, I think it's context no control plus Proactive thinking and reactive doing. Right. So you have to do more proactive thinking with this context. Now reactive doing means that

18:46 You need to collaborate. But when everybody has this kind of mindset the collaboration should be uh very smooth. Because People have the contacts all together.

18:55 I I think the the part that I see other maybe some of the other company uh facing challenges is actually there's too many IOs in between. And you have people that are just protecting their own thing and working their own thing and then I'm delivering. But

19:09 Just like how I see some of my uh friends, their kids playing Legos. If we don't really see the full picture. You won't be able to make the Lego as of one thing at the end of the day. You have to see the outer pieces. So I think that's the part I think it's really powerful and the reasoning

19:24 Really, really well. uh when we're really thinking about product development and also product go to market. Right. So it's uh it's a pretty full cycle. People have to CDs and then they have the context. I love this and this has come up actually a few times recently when I was talking to

19:39 The CTO of Netflix and also OpenAI. They're very similar in culture where it's Give people A lot of autonomy and freedom. And not a lot of do this, do this, do this.

19:50 The key there is to hire very high quality people and very high caliber people'cause Yeah. If not, then Things won't work out too great.

19:58 Is there anything along those lines that you can share just like yeah, the kinds of people you end up hiring and how you hire people that can work well in that environment. Uh I agree with you, right? So the caliber of these uh these people is actually pretty important to support The structure I just talked about.

20:14 And oftentimes I can see some people that with the quality of You know, always curious. Curiosity is a very important quality. uh when I'm actually talking to my interviewers. Because I wanna see that they are naturally

20:29 Curious to new things. They wanna learn more about the new things and don't really get Stuck to with their own things. That's that's one thing. And the other thing is the the discipline.

20:40 Because Like I said. It is actually a double sword a double edged sword in this case. Right. So It could potentially

20:48 Introducing some of the chaotic situation. in a company. Because everybody is thinking everybody everything. the discipline here is actually how you are really following the guidance of reactive during be always thinking about how to collaborate.

21:01 And the discipline here and also the the rigorous approach here. It's also going to be very important. One of the good examples of that is the ability to prioritise. Because I don't believe one thing is everybody can do everything. you have to do a prioritized properly so that you're able to

21:17 push the right agenda. So I think that's more of a kind of a quality of the Of the people we're looking for. is it is hard, don't get me wrong, like it is really hard to say that we can find everyone like that.

21:30 But we would love to uh believe that we can train our employees like that. So that they're able to even do better in their longer term career. Essentially what you look for when you're hiring people Is Making sure they're always curious, they have high discipline.

21:44 And that they prioritize well. Coming back to the cultural pieces of TikTok, so the Main one you've shared so far is this idea of context, not control. What else are important cultural? values of TikTok of how TikTok operates that everyone always has in mind when they're building and

22:01 And you know, in the meetings, making decisions. Yeah, I another internal uh thing that we always say is uh always day one. we wanna make sure that you know we always have this mentality, we are a startup. We are a um young company, we always hunger for growth. uh we don't want to fall into the trap that, you know, uh people may think, oh, you guys are very successful in the market and then you're

22:22 not necessarily, you know, need to worry about your existence anymore, I think It is actually something we try to avoid. Uh, we always want to make sure that in our team members always think like Okay. If this is actually a new day for you, I know what other things that I

22:37 You always want to keep it in your mind, you want to do. And also the keep that spirit is very important. Uh a lot of times that I can see uh some of the mature company You're not necessarily losing the edge of

22:49 um I would say this competition or doing the edge of being innovative. I think it's more about like, you know Some of the The culture has been shifted because

22:58 you have a lot of new employees diluting your culture. So not necessarily it's not gonna be like the old days that the co founder is sitting amount of you. Right. So but I do think this company has a very interesting behavior I see there is I can talk to anyone.

23:13 At any time via our internal communication system. I can ping show right now. I can paying The co founder If I want to uh

23:22 Tomorrow. We always keep this kind of mentality internal is that We're still a young company. We want to grow and you can feel free to talk to anyone. We don't have a limitation for that. As long as you have a good opinion.

23:34 I would love to hear from you. Is that creating some of the I would say that you know Chaotic situation. It might be.

23:41 But I do think that this keeps the company uh very energetic. People willing to share, people willing to engage. That's very important. Uh I wanna add one more thing. We just talked about you asked me What is actually the uniqueness of TikTok and uh versus the other company?

23:57 It's very tied up to that is I have never seen a company The engineering team And the product team and the sales team Are so close.

24:07 That's definitely one of the aha moments I had. Because If you're thinking about like if you're your engineer does not really know What the market wants. And if your PM doesn't really know

24:20 What is actually the client's feedback? They won't be able to getting a right product in the market. They j they they just won't be. And they won't even tell the a good go to market story. to advertisers or even to our users because

24:35 They just don't know. What are the you know, the end users are thinking. So I think It's a very secret source for us is that our sellers

24:44 And our engineering team. and our inju uh product team and also data scientist team. We're all collaborating really, really closely. And that's very much a I would say a such a big advantage for us. compared to, you know, when a company becomes too big and nobody talks to each other.

25:00 So uh I do hope that it is the thing that we're gonna continue uh ring force. along the years where we're continuing to grow the company. What does that actually look like? I imagine people hearing this are like, Yeah, we're gonna we're gonna make sales and product and Henge very close.

25:16 I imagine many people don't actually do this too well. How do you actually execute that? Is it They report to the same leader. They sit next to each other or I don't know, zoom next to each other. What what actually makes that work?

25:28 Yeah, I I think a couple of things. Number one is a like a structure, right? It it ha everything has to go as a structure. So we do have a meeting structure that we call it like Used used to be by month. And now it's actually a quarterly level.

25:41 Uh we get everybody together. Engineering leader, product leader, and also not necessarily only the leader level. Some of their uh the team members. We're joining a team uh we're joining the force together to have a big meeting. That meeting is one hundred eighty people.

25:56 Ish. It's crazy to have a meeting as that at that size. Uh, especially that, you know. There are different kind of functionality there. But one thing we keep the really well is actually we are using a

26:08 Uh reading Full man of meeting. So it's a dock reading. We just read in comments and understanding the context again. It is the talk. Bring everybody together.

26:18 And then we discuss the things that we want to make a decision with. Or the things that we feel is a blocker or things that we need to celebrate. So that meeting structure Keep everybody together and consensus. Again, not necessarily only for the top leaders.

26:32 Right. It it's normal for the engineering leader and product leader and sales leader at the company level they talk to each other. But we made that. happen for Their courtyard members. And the very beginning of my time here

26:44 That was literally Uh getting to the I C level. So it is pretty eye opening for me to join that meeting first time because I was The level of different meetings.

26:54 out of Google. But here is like Okay, everybody read one documentation. And then you just understand what are people talking about or thinking about. It is intentional. But I do think that that structure is a very big

27:07 Secret sauce, I would say. Not necessarily we we invented it, right? We also learn from the other companies, right? So It is actually one of the things that we I think deployed pretty well. uh today here.

27:19 to keep that structure running. And the other thing is really fe feed those, I'll say, uh market firsthand market information to O PMs and RDs. That means we took them out with us. We're just inviting them together

27:33 The kinds. And a lot of the company if you want to meet A PMs if you want to meet engineer leaders. It's literally like

27:44 Was that year maybe? And also if you're investing a ton with some of the platforms. For us, I think it's always up. to junior PMs, senior PMs and engineering leaders. We invited them together to

27:56 This immersion trip recorded. to really get face time with our clients. To really feel the heat. They are actually really facing a challenge.

28:06 By using our own product. Right. So That kind of a I will say the aha moment. is bringing a lot of uh I was say insights to them and also get them to feel uh the heat of the the the pants.

28:17 The centers may feel. So that walked through our two. Right. I think Oftentimes is a is a battle, right? It is Not necessarily the the general, you have to stay in the back.

28:28 You sometimes have to go to the front. But we just make that make sure that the f the general go to the front quite often in our company to that. I love that concept of Having them feel the heat. An interesting trend I've noticed is there's a lot of Amazon influence on the way you all operate.

28:43 There's the It's always day one idea. There's the memo culture you just described. Any idea where that comes from? Was there like a senior Amazon person that came in and helped influence. Those sorts of things. Is it just hey, Amazon's killing in their

28:56 I've noticed interestingly Amazon has influenced the most companies in all of their ways of working, so it's not a surprise. I'm just curious if there's anything else there that's interesting. I think we have the we have the benefits. To standing on the shoulder of all the giants. Right, so we learn definitely. Always there wins the culture that you know, Amazon

29:12 was always championing. I think we we learn from them, right? So this is something that we I will say like you know Always trying to listen and trying to learn from the industry. The dark fashion is also learned from

29:24 For Amazon? Right, so we kind of uh studied Oh, this is maybe the one of the best practices we can employ here. Oh, deployed here, so we tried it. Not even mentioned we have the OKR system.

29:34 So it is actually a very good learning from uh early stage from Google. So uh all these I think Definitely we do have some of the I'll say benefits being the newcomer to the market and then learn a lot of the best practices coming from our Uh, I was English Pierce. And

29:51 Really like deployed here, hopefully successfully. And some of the things that we just tweak it, right? So for example our culture always day one is definitely very similar to Amazon, but the implementation of that Could be different. And also the contest no control pieces. I believe other companies may have the similar idea.

30:07 But for us I think we just need really really need to implement it in a in a way that kinda be fitting to us. Uh I happened to listen to your podcast with uh The MVMB co founder uh the other day. Uh he also mentioned that, you know, how he break out the IOs. I think It is very similar approach among the industry right now, trying to really

30:25 make sure the team is able to talk to each other because I think a quote from him, like if he If your PM doesn't know how to sell the product they're creating. you won't be able to do it do your job better. Right. So this is literally how we're thinking about it too, in a lot of way.

30:40 I know that you all move very fast and I wanna actually talk about that next. Uh and with that it feels like you're Your c value should be it's always the first half of the day. Instead of it's always day one. It's always it's always the first it's the morning of the first day. I I think um the the value I if I if I put it in the

30:57 in a very wacky way is like how can I run my second half of my marathon faster than the first half? So that's how um I I think about it and how do we really like continue pushing for it. Wow, that sounds very hard and painful. But I like that metaphor. Okay, so let's talk about how you set up the product org to move as fast as you move.

31:19 I think there's this idea of just like Running fast. I don't know if that's a phrase you use, but just How is the product org? Set up. Especially different from other teams that you've seen that allows it to

31:30 Move as quickly as you move and innovate as often as you all innovate. our product teams are setting um I will say like very importantly is global. Right. So we want to actually uh like I said the number one step is if we want you really want to do global business, you have to go global. So we celebrate teams uh really across the board in the global locations.

31:51 to really acquire global talent, who knows the market and who knows the competition too. Right, so they're we're able to really get in there. That's a jump start. in the local market. So for example Uh we have the majority of the engineer.

32:04 Uh and also PMs. currently located in the west coast of the North America. Right, so Los Angeles and also San Jose. These are the key hubs we have for our tech. Uh, folks.

32:16 And also for North America wise, we do have our uh majority of the go to market leads. sitting in the New York to get closer with our seller and also uh with our clients. At the same time. Right. Uh also You know, it is not necessary only for North America. Like I said, we

32:31 Heavily invested in South East Asia. So you can see that a lot of our engineering and also PM resources are deployed over there in Singapore. to enable them to get closer to our clients over there as well. So really like deploy your resources globally.

32:46 And also focusing on the key markets you want to penetrate. That's the commitment I think uh we're doing. uh pretty Pretty pretty good. In this case.

32:55 And the second one is to really again, I think The PMs and the product team of settings are Oftentimes uh I would say like If because we are growing so fast. Oftentimes we have to do a lot of uh minor team at adjustment.

33:09 to catering for that, right? So It is very usual uh uh usual or common for Teams to do a little bit uh It worked. on annual basis or even like uh on a

33:20 two years or three year cycle. Uh the stability is important. Uh, don't get me wrong, but I do think that as a faster growing company we need to consistently to iterateerate Not only the product, but also our teams.

33:32 So how can we do reiteration? Um the PM side, on the go to market side. It is actually um something that, you know, I have seen this company doing really, really well. Not necessarily where

33:45 One team structure. We're actually binding to the market need. And we're bounding to the growth we're looking for. So uh we're not afraid to break our things.

33:56 And actually I literally break out my team last year. to uh make sure that my team having more Cultural mindset. uh to actually embedd them with cellar directly. So these are the things that, you know, very

34:08 Uh I'll say Incommissional. to a a size of this company, right. But I do think that's

34:15 Necessary. Uh and also that's a uh good mentality for the team to uh really run faster with this kind of a rigid approach. So yeah, these are the two things I think are very uh unique to us.

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35:30 For listeners of this podcast, one schema is offering a$1,000 discount. Learn at one schema.co Slash Lightning. I know you mentioned earlier when we were chatting offline is When you're trying to build the go to market org.

35:43 For this stuff. You failed in some ways. And there's some things you learn from that experience. What went wrong when you first tried to approach this? Yeah, when I when I joined a company there were There are only two people.

35:56 on a go to market site. For the advertising business. Yeah, there are only two people. And and by that time there the US and plus I was a Europe business together. We're having like

36:07 But the business is to grow and we need to hire really fast. The first mistake I made was By the way, the goal is to hiring

36:18 uh one hundred people in a six month. to support the go to market. That's the speed we're into, right? So That is Early two thousand and twenty.

36:27 Two mid of two thousand twenty. So within six months I need to hire I would say one hundred people. to supporting a global go to market structure. And good everything.

36:37 Dan the first amid the first mistake I made. Just write that at the right point because We're trying to grow too fast. And Sometimes as a hiring manager

36:47 I have to Compromise. The standard. We're trying to we're trying to hire. So that's the mistakes I think uh I made first and I think nobody should be that mistake.

36:58 Yeah, you need Always run for the quality rather than the quantity. So it's a it's a Easy mistake you can fall into the trap because the business demand you to go faster. If you don't have the manpower you won't be able to, but

37:11 Yeah. I was saying believe me. When I say this is a pain, right? When you have the wrong people on the team It's not necessarily gonna make a m move faster. It's gonna actually slow you down. So that's one of the biggest mistake I made for my for my first year.

37:25 When I when I created the team. And not necessarily myself only, right? So my also my reporting manager, sorry, uh the the manager's reporting to me They are facing the same pressure. And then it's cascading down, so It's definitely uh the mistakes.

37:41 We made at an early stage. The second thing I can think about is really on The contact's no control. It is not necessarily I've born into, to be honest, because I was trained Really like, you know, hey.

37:53 Is it a box? Finish your work here. And then you're good. But The reason why I

38:00 the value of that really like the attitude more today is literally I Failed. at the very s early stage of my uh time here. Because I was trying to create in that kind of a very black and white discipline for my team. You hate you can do this, you cannot do that. But

38:15 Technically speaking That's literally slowing things down. Because a lot of times you can see that Hey, we're delivering our go to market strategy. And we're good.

38:24 But literally. What you don't know is your goal is not to deliver the go to market strategy. Your goal is to land. Your goal to market strategy, where sells together.

38:34 So if your job only is delivering No, you're you're failed oftentimes because you you're not really getting the market context. You're not even talking to your clients. So That was uh literally another mistake, I think. taught me how to really like embrace the culture here is

38:50 Contact's no control. Right. And The subpiece, I think. It's also a mistake.

38:57 uh some really like a big aha moment for me as well is for the past couple of years. Now I've been managing a such big global organization. Oftentimes Even not myself, my managers, they don't have time

39:10 to go detail. And to go talk to the clients. Which is very scary. Because If you don't know

39:18 Again, you don't hear uh what is happening in the market. You won't know the details in the market. You won't be able to Take The right movement or take the right approach.

39:28 to go to market or even give the feedback to the engineering team. So it's very important that you know The leader. Uh Any level.

39:36 needs to be situational. You cannot Always dunk to the weed? And you can not really distance yourself from the reality. So you need to find in the violence.

39:47 to really get engaged and also throw yourself out there to getting I was like getting deeper into the problems to identify the problems. And then you are able to perform even better. Because I don't believe one thing is you're the pure

40:01 Um I was the people manager. Uh you cannot do that. Because when you do that Your Very very I I had a very I would say like uh tradition to

40:10 What are you thinking about your career? Because uh you're losing your competitive edge. Found the other I was say, you know, equivalent talents in the market. I love these stories. I love stories of things not working out, so I appreciate you sharing these things. When someone doesn't

40:24 work out at TikTok and they have a bad time and they Yeah, let go, or they leave. What's the most common reason? Like other than just they're not good enough? Is there like something that just doesn't stick with people that often leads to like this is not the place for me? Yeah, I w I would try to really think about it in a different way. I can tell like you know how people can be more successful here, right? So

40:42 I definitely can see like we just talked about people being very curious and people are very being like, you know, nimble. They can be more successful here. At the same time, I think uh we have to admit one thing. Join a startup and join a rocket ship is a

40:58 A lifestyle. It is not necessarily a job. you're you're you're working on from Naturefied, right. So It is a different lifestyle.

41:07 And it's not Beautiful, everyone. Right. So if you are not able to adjust your mentality towards some of the work that you know we're here to do. and it's maybe like not right fit for you. I'm not saying that

41:19 that candidates is incapable. I think they could be capable Uh in the other scenario for sure. But it's just the right fit. I think that is a I would say like you know very much towards the situation or the company status Um in the market.

41:33 I can see lot of people that you know They left and become very successful too. Right. So it is not necessarily that, you know, oh uh we think you're not good and then you're gonna be you know Not good for every single other company. That's not the case. Uh and one thing and also this is my team culture, I try to create is

41:50 I'm happy to say that When uh employee Reach out to me. Uh say, Hey, Ray, I'm uh I'm actually leaving the company. As long as they're telling me that they're going to

42:01 a better place or a place that they can continue to grow their career? I'm happy for them. Because Eve oftentimes my my Uh, last question during my interview is

42:12 What is actually You'll call in the next Three to five years. And also like you know, I'd be really honest with them, say, Hey I don't think this is the job for you forever, right? Nobody gonna work in this forever. If you can, great. But

42:26 What is really like, you know, your North Star. I think that's the part that I would love to co partner with you because I always believe one thing is it is not only about achieving a company goal, it's also achieving your really the career goal or your employee's career goal together. So

42:42 I wanna create in that culture here as well. So Yeah, I think I'm doing so far so good. most of my team members, uh, when they actually Uh moving uh moving on. Internally or externally?

42:53 uh I'm able to say that okay, that's a good choice. If I were you, I may probably do the same thing. It is actually a very good culture, I think I would love to champion. uh across. On that first point, I'm also a huge advocate of just You will be successful if you work very hard. I know there's a bit of a backlash at working.

43:10 How long? And And thinking too much about work life balance and I feel like It's actually really important. to work a lot and work long hours often to be successful, especially at a company that's

43:19 Going through this'cause that's not gonna last forever. I think I did with it, it's a personal choice. Right. It's a it's a very much like a personal choice. If you are exciting about this, if we wanna grow together, yeah, this maybe is a is a

43:32 Good thing for you. And also depends on the life stage, right? So some of the The people they want to actually getting more family time, I think that's also uh the right choice too. But it just depends on your personal uh I'll say anyway your personal uh choice rather than

43:49 If the company demands that, I mean I cannot force my team to walking I don't I don't want them to like work in long hours. I think it's it's more about like if you're able to deliver, right? If it requires a bit a longer time to

44:03 Contribute. I think it's okay, but you also get rewarded very well too, right? So What's getting and what's get out. So I I think it's again I do believe that

44:13 This is the the quality and also the the value we're we're evaluating here as well. And even though it's hard in the moment, I find that those are the times you remember most And most fondly in your career. When you just scall in, I'm gonna work really hard and do the best possible job I can do. Assuming that doesn't last.

44:30 Forever. those uh end up being the most impactful, helpful to your career. Most proud moments when you're just like, look what I had accomplished. And so I'm on the same page.

44:40 I wanna talk about being successful. on TikTok as a creator, as a business, as an advertiser, but Couple more questions real quick on how TikTok operates. You mentioned you do OKRs. Just briefly, is there anything that

44:52 You've learned about being successful doing okay within TikTok. Maybe is there anything different that y'all do versus How other companies think about who cares? It is a definitely a company alignment that we are using OKR as our basically then uh the system to uh make sure that everybody is working towards the same goal, right?

45:09 implementing wise, I think definitely we have a lot of room to improve. Right. So how how often do you actually see your team able to go the okay are at the end of a quarter. And also putting the OKR really two weeks or one week before the beginning of a quarter. I have to say that, you know, shame on me, I sometimes uh, you know, delayed a little bit.

45:28 But I think the the goal is always there to using using OKR system as our no star. to drive the behavior and also to align. Again, it's very important to a line on the OKRs because

45:40 I can see a lot of times. The OKRs are putting in. But they are very siloed. And that is not really necessarily helpful. uh for the company one achieving really high growth.

45:51 So I think w it's very important that we know we don't take OKR as a shell. But we we take Oaker as its core is Cross functional alignment. cross functional goal style. So

46:02 These are the uh the things that we're still continuing in improving. Is the way that OKRs work at TikTok is they're an OKR per team and they all kinda trickle up to a company level OKR. Is it less structure that way and teams kinda decide if they want to use OKRs or not. How does that Roughly work.

46:17 The structure is basically the guidance is you using uh the key result to evaluating. And then you put the steps in between. Right. So That's how at least my team has been using this. I think the the things that we can improve is The input and output.

46:32 Right. So the output is very clear. But What is actually the input? Sometimes it's debatable, sometimes I have to say. And also Oftentimes your output is other people's input.

46:43 Are you able to connect in the dots over there too? then that's actually the part that, you know, requires a lot of defle a lot of I'll say reinforcement. on alignment. Uh, definitely we're getting better. Don't get me wrong, we're Totally not perfect, for sure.

46:56 Uh but I do see there was a lot of uh mo out in momentum. to leveraging the system better. If you know other companies doing this Really, really good. Please shoot in my way. I would have loved to learn from them. One last question here. You do planning, you have OKRs.

47:10 Just briefly, d how often do you all do planning? Is there a yearly plan that you put together and then a quarterly detail plan? Yeah, we do we do have uh annual planning. Cycle. But I have to say that, you know, our annual planning cycle is the baseline. Uh, we often do a lot of uh iterations in the middle of the year.

47:27 Uh, and also on a quarterly basis that you know, we're able to purely really nimbly to really catering to the things that we see in the market. Right. Some of the longer term strategy won't change. Just like the platform we want to always creating uh, you know, inspiring and also a frictionless and immersive experiences for users. This won't change, but

47:44 anything into the core of like how do we Realising that? You're always a consistent experiment. Uh over there. I cannot speak for the user product side, but

47:54 at least from the advertising product side, uh, you know, this is always the rigorous approach we're we're taking. And for the go to market part, that's also creating a very different behavior for us, right? Because Oftentimes if we have a solid and Kind of a uh static

48:09 For a little map. You can do go to market relatively easy. I will say because everything is planned. But was a environment like that that basically made the

48:19 go to market and also the product feedback loop. much more shorthand and faster. So There was a lot of I will say pressure. Or actually put it nicely, it was a lot of innovative things that you know on the go to market side and also on the sell side.

48:33 the company uh or the teams need to actually Do. To make sure that we're able to catering for that. Uh but again, this is a teamwork rather than uh only one side of the work. So far so good, I would say. Uh a lot of things that we've been able to achieve.

48:46 within the past couple of years. uh has been already proven that, you know, this approach has been working for us. uh but not necessarily they are uh always like, you know, just perfect already. Always room to improve. to make sure that you know we have more

49:00 structural approach as well. So that the market able to Keep the pacing with us. We don't want to overwhelm our advertisers or our users either. So

49:08 That's also the other part that you know we need to continue optimizing too. Okay, let's talk about a different topic, which is being successful on TikTok. So the way I think about it in my head is there's How to be successful is just a regular human creator person.

49:21 How to be successful as a Business trying to just create For all content. And then being successful as an advertiser, which I know is where you spend a lot of time. So uh let me just ask

49:31 Is there a tip you could share for someone to be successful? say aka be go viral. on TikTok. I imagine your answer will be just produce something people love and wanna Share and like. But I guess is there any Is there anything that could be

49:42 tactically useful when you're creating content in TikTok to help you Govar. I think if I know that. I definitely will already become a very successful creator, I have to say. Our system is very much Smarter than I am.

49:55 Uh I can now check the system. But I have seen a couple of good cases, right? So Number one thing is that you have to really like Be unfuture. I mean you don't really need to be perfect.

50:06 On this platform. I mean, that's the beauty of it. You can be yourself. You can really share the things that you like and if you really master at one thing that You're really, really good at and you want to showcase. This is the platform for you to shine.

50:19 Because Not necessarily that, you know, we are fully saturated, right? And also all agarized on distributing the content in a very different way, right? Uh some other platforms they are I will say like a people based, a friendship a friend based.

50:32 I think for us it's purely based on Actually you're creating something that you know everybody wanna see. So let's see if we can distribute more. Right. So I think continuously to bring new content to this platform.

50:44 and testing and finding your own competitive edge. gonna be very important. As a successful creator. And most of our creator has been doing that. Uh, and uh, I can see some of our biggest TikTok stars.

50:56 They're literally practicing this every single day. And I do think That Creativity and that How does

51:05 I'll say getting the nuances. is the key part that to be more successful on the on the TikTok community. And the second thing is Uh it's including also for for brands as well, because I consider brands as our creator as well.

51:19 They really need to embrace the culture. and the community here. Right, to really listen and understand what are the user behaviors on the platform. To understand what they would like to see. And also the the messages or

51:31 The presence could be very different. from your other other media channels. Or as a creator, it could be very different from your other uh outside platforms. So that's the other thing that you know

51:42 It's gonna be challenging because for them to shifting the mindset. But I do think that, you know definitely was trial, right? So Some of the I will say our early adopters has already been proven that

51:53 When you do embrace the culture here you're able to acquire a ton of different kind of uh User or you know, the audience to your channel. And you can show a different side of yourself as well.

52:06 So Yeah. I've been trying to do that. I have not really like finding my competitive edge, I have to say. But I'll keep trying. Is there an example you could share of someone that has done that really well, either Be really authentic and also embrace the community of a business specifically that has done this really well and

52:23 Taken off. Not as an advertiser. There was uh one creator I remember called uh Shabba. She's a singer. And she is able to cut my eyes because

52:34 She was able to basically rap And also doing uh some of the sunscover in a very different way because She's a minority and she was able to basically using her minority identity as actually a Everybody was thinking that I'm supposed to be doing

52:49 like Bollywood music. But actually you know what? I'm not. I'm doing a lot of very uh like, you know, just hip hop and also the music that, you know People may think like I'm not good at. Right. So uh it is pretty fun to watch that kind of a comparison or the contrast between

53:05 a creator. And also she's able to put a lot of the uh original music on the platform. To really inspire more people to do the same thing. There's another music uh I was a TikTok creator.

53:17 So he was pretty big on the other platforms, but the total approach from him Is He's basically changing the lyrics. make it very relatable as a personal life because for example if he can totally change the lyrics from a old battery boy song or unsink song.

53:32 to make it like related with his uh daily communication with his wife. Make it really like relatable and fun. So These are the things I think is very unique to us. Like If you are able to test and find something like new like that.

53:45 You're able to find a new batch of audience and even go viral on the platform. Okay, so then switching to The advertising network. A lot of listeners here are thinking about, I imagine

53:56 advertising on TikTok. There's kind of classically been Facebook and Google are the two places to Do run pit ads. Pay ads are a huge growth driver for tons of companies. It's one of the

54:08 Easiest, you could say, or one of the most traditional way to grow. TikTok obviously is emerging and has already emerged as one of the newer advertising networks. So there's a lot of people thinking about how do I succeed as an advertiser. On TikTok.

54:21 So what advice do you have for people One. Who's it best for? I imagine TikTok isn't the best place to advertise for every sort of business, so What sort of businesses are best aligned to be successful in TikTok? And then just what advice can you share to do well as an advertiser on TikTok?

54:37 Yeah, I see a lot of uh really different type of details already find their success on the platform. One thing that They actually can do that is really due to a couple of Things that you're doing.

54:49 Number one is like I said, they're embracing uh this platform. They actually Do a lot of things is tick to first. I have a couple of advertisers they have actually creating their own internal

55:02 Creative team. Just dedicated it for TikTok. Right. So they actually produce a ton of creative every single day to actually test and learn to understand the platform and understand the community they're engaging with. So

55:16 I was leaning in is the first part. It's harder. But uh it is not that hard. As long as you try it, you will feel that every single day it's getting easier. So and also we make a lot of tools to make things easier for them as well. Like creative we have

55:30 also a lot of the resources on the platform the creative hub and also We have creative analytics help you. So these are the things that you know we're able to Pensé que Help that with Heart Tellini in more.

55:41 Um the other angle to leaning in more is test and learn. A lot of times that People don't know how to really run As on his platform. Right.

55:52 Google is very much search. like such uh fronts. Like they are really leading on the intent graph. And meta is really on the the people graph they're they're making. I mean TikTok is the counting graph.

56:05 It's a very different, uh, I would say machine compared to the other two. and it requires different way to optimizing and to leveraging the tools we have. Right. So if you're applying the the same logic. From meta or

56:21 A Google into TikTok. Not necessarily you're able to see uh great success. I have to say. So you have to really like Get.

56:29 to the detail and to learn how to operate in this platform. At the very beginning. Of course, like I said, we're trying to make it things as simple as possible because we strongly believe that An advertisers' job is to taking care of their own business.

56:42 And our job is to service them. So we definitely make things a bit easier and along the way. But still. It's a little bit learning for advertisers to change their mindset. when they engage uh with us at the first time.

56:55 And I can see that again, for example Last Q four I can see a lot of advertiser taking this approach to really like listen to us and understanding what is our best practices. They actually see a very successful Q four.

57:09 on the path one. So I do think that If you want to do more, just do more test and learn with us and to really understand the impact from technology. Just understand this point about versus Instagram,'cause I think a lot of people probably run on them on both platforms and Try to see which one's working better.

57:23 Your point is the same content won't work as well. on one versus the other. So just so people understand what the main difference there is. I know you talk about there's the friend graph versus TikTok just spreads it all over and anyone can see it. You don't have to be friends. And it's really good at getting content out.

57:38 So what is it that you would do differently if you're making a add video for Instagram versus TikTok. I think the the TikTok video, it's more about the backend settings, right? So How do you how often do you actually change in creatives? I think

57:52 For us It is actually pretty uh rigid you wanna actually test more creatives on this platform and see which one is actually working. And then we also have really detailed guidance on how do you set up your campaign structure. to make sure that you're able to be more successful on the platform, right? So

58:09 These are the I was the basic hygiene's we talking about. You can see those guidance are very different from uh what Meta has today or even Google has today because We're just basically different platforms. And oftentimes you can also hear that

58:23 We require a bit more real time. Uh react. on the platform. due to some of the trends we have seen. So That is the part I feel like

58:33 If an advertiser uh wants to engage more with our really the sales team and they're able to provide more guidance to you. And you're able to see more success there. But A lot of things it will be Counterintuitive, I would say.

58:46 Because the intuitive we have learned is coming from the other platforms. But technically we're not. Right. So A lot of things that oh this didn't make sense to me. But

58:55 Why don't you try it? Actually that really easy because we're showing a lot of uh I'll say out of credit. To

59:03 intensify uh incentivizing our advertisers to try it. at the end of the day that hopefully they can see the uh the result is proven itself. God, I think that's such an interesting point, this idea of testing more, which Basically you're saying with Instagram Certain people will see it.

59:17 And they're not and they're not just gonna be It's not gonna be shown to tons of random people, so you basically have one shot at Getting this in front of The Instagram crowd. Versus TikTok just tries it.

59:28 this explore and exploit kind of approach is like we'll just keep trying stuff until something sticks. Yeah, I think it exactly like that. Hundred percent. I think a lot of uh lot of times that I think advertising when especially when digital advertising becomes a thing, right? So We kind of think everything can be calculated. Because you have the data.

59:47 But the beauty of advertising is never like that. the core value of advertising is to Tell people don't know you exist. And tell them that what you're doing for them and then creating these demand. Right, discover is the core of advertising to me.

1:00:04 Because I was never expecting my wife telling me that what she gonna buy when she walk into a shopping mall. If I know that, I will stop her. Already. she oftentimes that you know get out something different. Right. So this is not planned. I think that's literally one of the

1:00:19 behavior I would love to They emphasized more is You wanna be open up your door to more consumer. Because We are a

1:00:28 digital version of What of Mouse. I always always compare us to that because It is the way that how Uh digital era becomes more human.

1:00:39 Because it is actually helping advantage or helping user to discover new things. Just like what they used to do. Right. There's a new place in a in a certain area you just go explore. It is just like that. So I think that's the reason why I think at the very beginning

1:00:54 continue doing this kind of open minded testing with us will be a very good approach. To get some early Learning. And eventually now you can refine your approach. But at the beginning I would highly recommend that just

1:01:06 And also take some risk with us together. and we're able to show you a little how much we can actually benefit in the business. Awesome. And on that point, that was the other piece of advice you shared is

1:01:18 Pay attention to the trends so that you can connect your ad to things that people are already laughing at or finding really interesting. Feel like uh Duolingo is incredible with this. Their videos are hilarious and I think they're all just organic. Videos and a lot of them connect the trends that are

1:01:34 It it's funny you brought up Eolingo because I'm actually now become a heavy user of the Ulingero myself because Me too. I I watched the video on the on the TikTok. I think just basically a kiss. Uh like just randomly learn a different language and make a lot of mistakes.

1:01:51 It's really funny. And then I just download that app because I didn't know. I've been using uh Dilingro for the past Forty days as a new year resolution, I'm committing myself to learn Japanese. Wow. Forty day streak? Yeah.

1:02:04 Amazing. I'm at it. Twenty five days. Okay, great. We're we're on par pretty much. Are you in the Ruby League or uh Emerald League? Which league are you in right now? Em right now. Emerald. Okay, I think I'm in Emerald too.

1:02:15 So. Just to close the thread on this, so you're talking about One of the benefits of TikTok ads is awareness building. Basically more top of funnel. I know you also

1:02:26 Focus a lot on Taking action, not just brand awareness. There's also a lot of So maybe talk a little bit about that, just like that's also a big part of advertising on TikTok. Yeah, I think the beauty of word of mouth is actually You know that what a mouse leads to actions.

1:02:41 Right. So I think TikTok we oftentimes the we were people were thinking that oh TikTok is really good for building awareness, building Accra funnel, uh or some of the discovery funnel. But I really want to say that We want to prove and also we already proved Lafran the studies we have seen from third parties that We're driving actions.

1:03:00 At the same time. And this is literally the ambition we're trying to really like talk to out of the hyers. Especially on the the commerce front that You know shopping and TikTok shop and shop hats.

1:03:13 It it is actually the the proven points that we see And also this is not necessarily coming off of Our illusion, right? Because We see there was a biggest trend on TikTok is TikTok made me buy it. We have

1:03:25 billion level views on that. It's continue growing. And this will literally inspire us to do this product. Like I said, you know. one of the very important things here is we

1:03:36 drive our product by listening to our user and see the behavior from that. And we see the behavior and now we're trying to capture that. and provide the best service to our user and also uh how part of it has it to Re shipping your product.

1:03:48 So I just think that, you know, this year people will see us more as a full funnel solution platform. rather than only, you know, including the brands. Because we want it actually impacting on full final for our advertiser. Again.

1:04:00 So I mean their business result is more important to us. Say a startup is starting to think about advertising on TikTok. Maybe they've done some Google ads and Facebook ads. What do you recommend they

1:04:12 plan for in order to just see if this could work for them. Like how much time Should they give it? How many ads should they run? How much budget? Should they a lot to just explore this as a growth channel for them? I will say at the very beginning, um The investment will be coming from

1:04:28 They're leaning into creating a business account with us. Right. So this is actually how you're engaging with your community. But even before that, I think just Do some research on a platform. And be the user.

1:04:39 as a tick talk. to really experiencing it and see the differences. And then you were thinking about how can you actually connecting your behavior or your um your desire behavior coming from a user.

1:04:50 With your business. And then you're creating content around it. And that's the moment I think this first step is creating your business presence on the TikTok. And the idea there is just an organic account you create.

1:05:03 Let's say Lenny's podcast, which actually have my Lenny's podcast is on TikTok. So we can use that as an example, maybe. So you're saying start off just creating free business account on TikTok and posting videos just to see how it feels and how it goes. Yeah. Just see how it feels, right? So maybe some of the videos you don't get any views, and some of the views you get you get more views, right? And the end of the day you can test. Some of the advertising products drive those awareness.

1:05:26 And see if it's actually driving impact for you, right? And then you have to do more, maybe like, you know, testing with us. or A B testing or geo splitting testing event eventually, you know, depends on how big how big the Investment is You can see there was actually a

1:05:40 Like a directional impact. Of business. Right so And also We are giving you reporting and insights on how you're doing on the platform.

1:05:48 Right, so you can optimizing towards that. But I was saying the very important part is trying to get a feeling of the platform by creating your Organic presence. And then

1:05:57 try to launch the ads account. to make sure that you're able to drive more traffic. to a desire destination or to a desire actions that you want to use it to take. And continue refining that.

1:06:09 Along the way, there are a lot of things that you're gonna learn. For example How can you leverage any automation solutions on the platform? And how can I leveraging some of the also creative trends you detect on the platform. And also some of the tools that we're creating to help you to

1:06:22 generating uh those script. Right. So these are all the things that you can learn from the platform. In terms of time investment, I think At the beginning of the month. Uh, definitely it's gonna be I hope it'll be a little bit more intense of a

1:06:35 Learning? So that you're able to get a rhythm in there. And along the way that as long as they become more automated and also get more understanding towards the business. You're able to actually creating

1:06:46 I was in more relevant content for the platforms. by leveraging our creators or by leveraging some of your own our resources. Uh from yeah of sub party, for example. So I think

1:06:57 Yeah. It takes a little bit a learning curve. But I do think that the result will surprise you. And was the implication there give it a month? Like spend a month running ads. Or is that not what you're saying? I think um oftentimes we'll say like a month minimum um to run the ad because I think it's actually a learning curve for advertisers to really get into

1:07:15 understanding the behavior in the platform. And how many ads would you suggest and I know there's not like a rule of thumb, but just how many ads would you suggest they try to run in that month? To give you m a real sense of like This is Could work. Or like

1:07:27 No. The motor better. Um I will say at least ten different uhdequatives. Uh it will be ideal per week.

1:07:35 And The more the better. Temper week. Oh wow, okay. Yeah. Ten for a week.

1:07:41 Uh also I'll say like We can see that it is a A little bit of uh I was like nuances there, because a lot of it oh I don't have that resources. But As simple as possible, we can give you a tool.

1:07:53 Right. We'll have CapCut as a tool. I created my uh anniversary video uh for my wife by using that too. Uh don't tell her. One minute now everybody knows. Uh but she thinks she might not listen all the way this long of this episode. She thinks it takes a lot of time. Literally uh the production is amazing. we creating that tool specifically for our creator and also for our advertisers and the user in general.

1:08:14 So you're able to do a lot of I will say automated and Uh customized the way in the So you're able to generate in those contents. On your fingertips.

1:08:25 So It will be a really good health for other wanted to be more self service, right? On the other hand, we also have third parties to like you know certified TikTok uh pro uh service providers. on the creative side to help you as well. So

1:08:39 Depends on the level of house advertisers you are. Is there a most common mistake people make when they try this out where you're just like often being like You fool. Here's what you did wrong. Is there something in there just like just don't do this thing,'cause a lot of people make this mistake and then they fail on TikTok. Yeah. The the first one is like uh I can see a lot of a ties I want to do um Instantly they want to do uh like remarketing.

1:09:01 Or they wanna do like a s very small niche targeting on a platform because you're limiting yourself. Like I said, it is more about like you know Getting to the rhythm to understand more about platform. So a broader targeting approach is actually recommended. At a very early stage.

1:09:16 And most of the advertisers are already doing that today. Because previously I can see that for the first two years in the business Especially when we acquire new advertisers. Oftentimes they get on the platform and say, Hey, I wanna do this and that, like I wanna really refine my targeting, et cetera.

1:09:31 And then We just recommend hey. Why do we do this comparison? You have a campaign setup like this going on. But this is our recommendation and you can see the difference.

1:09:40 And literally the lo most of them they'll see a very big difference over there on it. Amazing. Ray, I know you have to run. I'm gonna skip the lightning round, but let me ask you just one question from Light Lightning Round. Do you have a favorite TikTok account that you've been just like really loving these days? I'll share mine real quick and then see if anything comes to mind. There's this lady who I found recently who does silent baby product reviews.

1:10:03 Where her baby's like sleeping in the room. And she's like And then she just like goes through twenty different baby products, like very quietly, and it's Hilarious.

1:10:12 I'll link to it in the show notes if you have a kid, you'll love it. Is there anything else That you love or wanna highlight. Uh I do have one creator I I'm actually active following is on uh like m he's a magician. He basically used very uh

1:10:28 I was a very like a normal things just handy around him. to make something that you know look like very cool magic. I always were like, you know, how how did you make that? So I'm actually following that and getting more inspiration on myself is like Can I do that? No. I think that's more about my hu uh my personal hobby to see something like that. It's very, very uh cool.

1:10:49 to see people can do these kind of uh tricks by using normal stuff around them. Ray. Thank you so much for being here. Two last questions. How can folks Reach out if they ever want to learn more about the stuff, if they can't. And how can listeners be useful to you?

1:11:03 Uh, I think feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn uh if you want to discuss more about uh like, you know, some of the go to market challenges you're facing. I think uh we're facing a lot of I would say similar uh challenges every single day. And also in terms of, you know, on the on the product standing point Different company have a different product philosophy.

1:11:22 I don't think we are like Always right. I was always r re uh recommending to receive a lot of uh feedback or recommendations. And that'll be really, really nice to have to form these kind of uh you know, leveraging your audience to be my community to

1:11:36 to teach me a lesson sometimes. That'll be even better. Amazing. Right. Again, thank you so much for being here. I feel like people don't have a ton of insight into the way TikTok operates and I appreciate making time to do this. No, it's it's a pleasure, Lenny. Thank you very much for having me Bye everyone.

1:11:52 Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at Lenny's Podcast.com. See you in the next episode.

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