How I built a 1M+ subscriber newsletter and top 10 tech podcast | Lenny Rachitsky

0:00 I just sat down on this rock on a substance of some sort. This was as I was starting the newsletter, and this phrase of I have wisdom to share. coming through me over and over and over. And I was just watching this crazy visualization of some kind of sitting Buddha thing. And that was for three hours. It gave me the confidence that like, okay, maybe I do have things to share. What do you want to say to our mothers right now? Do you want to take that back? You started your newsletter 2019 and And it now has over a million subscribers. One point two million. One point two. Something that we've talked about a few times is the best stuff comes from actual experience. The source of the best advice is from practitioners doing the thing for real. At this point, most of my posts are guest posts where somebody's sharing the best thing they've learned in their career. On the struggle bus of startup life, probably. And then probably after that failed, I would have joined some company. Do you still like it? I can't imagine doing something more fulfilling and interesting, but the visual I always have is the Indiana Jones boulder is chasing me constantly. It's like this treadmill that you're on. Tell me about uh time you've been really stressed. in your business?

1:11 Today my guest is my brilliant incredible Wife Michelle Riyall. Who turns the table and interviews me? I've had so many people over the years want me to be interviewed on this podcast.

1:22 And what could be more fun than doing this with my wife? I share things during this conversation that I've never shared else. Including some of the hardest moments from this journey, I get a lot more personal than I've ever been on this podcast. Also, the day this podcast comes out just happens to be my wife's birthday. And she is also about to publish her third book.

1:43 A children's book called Charts for Babies, which we chat briefly about. Definitely pre-order it. This was so fun and so special. I hope you love it. Let's get into it. Here's a puzzle for you. What do OpenAI, Cursor, Perplexity, Vercelle, Platt, and hundreds of other winning companies have in common? The answer is they're all powered by today's sponsor, WorkOS.

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3:54 Metterview customers close roles 30% faster. Try MetaView today for free and get an extra month of sourcing. at metaview.ai slash Lenny. That's M-E-T A View dot AI slash Lenny. Michelle Real, thank you so much for being here. Welcome to the podcast.

4:14 Thanks me. So what are we doing here? Uh People constantly ask me to get interviewed myself. People are like, Why don't you sit on the other side of the microphone and get interviewed and I'm just like, nah, I like interviewing.

4:26 Uh but you have a book coming out? Uh And we thought this would be a fun opportunity to Uh have you interviewed me?

4:35 And so this is gonna be your show. I'm just gonna be here asking me whatever you want. I have no idea what you're gonna ask me. And uh we'll see where it goes. And I'm gonna ask you some questions about your book too. So I'll turn that over to you, Michelle. What do you got what do you got for me?

4:50 Okay. Babe. Yeah. Um Yeah. So Your you started your newsletter.

4:59 twenty nineteen. And it now has over a million subscribers. One point two million. One point two. Mm-hmm. Uh and your podcast. Is Oh.

5:11 Yeah. Very frequently one of the top ten, is that right? Yep. It's like right around. Top ten tech podcasts. Yeah. Yes. Hell yeah.

5:20 I love it. When I met you, I think you were something called a product engineer. I was a software engineer. Let's see, when you met me? No, I think it was a I think it was still a software engineer, yeah. I think you went from Software engineer to product engineer to product manager.

5:35 Yeah. Yeah. And I'm wondering what do you what do you think you'd be doing right now if you hadn't started that newsletter? If I like stayed in my job. Yeah. If you hadn't

5:45 And then that I mean I'll get to another question about what do you think is the one moment. that led you to your newsletter, but You can answer either one. So is the question after I left Airbnb what would I be doing? Or is it like if I didn't if you hadn't

5:59 Or if you had gotten a different job, you think you would have gotten a different job, stayed there. So when I left my job, uh I was at Airbnb for seven years. Uh I was I had like plan A Start a company again. Plan B join a startup as like their first PM.

6:14 Lancy join a big company as a PM. Plan the Advise companies, become a consultant kind of person. Nowhere in that plan was like do this crazy thing that I do now. I had a lot of startup ideas as I was exploring the startup ideas, as you remember. I was just like tinkering and prototyping and building stuff and then on the side I was writing.

6:32 Things that I learned and things I wanted to share. And you were just like Mm-hmm. Why are you writing? Why do you? There's n you can't make money on the internet writing?

6:42 You should be doing this thing that you're good at. Startups and building and tech and stuff like that. And I'm just like, I don't know. It seems like there's a pull here, so I'm just gonna keep doing this. I don't know if it's the things that you're good at. I just said I just said like as a person in putting writing on the internet. I don't make any Money. Unless people buy my book. Yeah.

7:00 Plug. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess to answer your question, I'd probably find another company to start and it probably would have failed. Considering most startups fail. So I'd probably be in this like, Oh no, is this thing a thing I should be doing? It'd be in a on the str on the struggle bus of start up life, probably.

7:16 And then probably after that failed, I would have joined a Some company, I guess as a PM. So then I guess going back to that. Question of What

7:24 What do you think? Do you think there's a moment or a collection of moments that led you to Go full in on the newsletter or you know start the newsletter, start the medium post that led to the newsletter. Yeah. It was definitely a collection of moments. It's kinda this like little journey that I just followed pull that was starting to work and I'm just like, huh, maybe there's something here. So a few moments along my journey. One was the first thing I wrote on the in uh

7:45 This is like the first thing I wrote on the internet. Did very well. There's this post on what I learned at Airbnb. Like Medium featured it. It went all over the place. Brianche shared with the whole company so proud of what I shared. So that was a nice moment of like, maybe have something to share. And then I wrote a few more things on medium at this point.

8:02 And there's more of just like hmm. This is working, people seem to like it. Then I had a conversation with this with a friend, Lee Jacobs, who's a V C now. I was telling him I don't know what I'm I don't know why I'm doing this. Why am I writing? This is like not a future.

8:17 I should be focusing on the startup. And he's just like You seem to be enjoying it. People seem to be liking it. Which is very rare, the Venn diagram of things, just like

8:26 How often do you enjoy something and people value it? And maybe there's a way to make money in in the future. So his advice is just maybe pursue that and double down on that and maybe it'll go somewhere. So that was a moment.

8:38 Another maybe big moment was Nine months of doing the newsletter. So I decided I'm gonna move to Substack. I'm gonna write every week. I tweeted, I'm gonna experiment with a newsletter, weekly newsletter, see how it goes. Uh and so I

8:51 Did that every week for nine months. And I just remember this moment nine months in. Where I was like Hm.

8:57 I've been doing this every week for nine months. Which means I could probably do this for nine more months. There's this uh Lindy effect. I don't know if you know this. But there's this concept of a thing something being Lindy. Which is

9:10 Uh as long as it's been going for It will most likely be. last at least that long in the future. So I thought that okay, I could do this for at least probably another year. I have all these ideas and things I wanna write about. So let me just keep doing this, so that's when I decided to add the paywall and start charging and

9:25 To see if I could make money doing this thing. Also in parallel, as you know, uh I was doing this Based on the assumption that my Airbnb stock was gonna be worth something and I Could take this time to explore.

9:36 And then Covet hit and Airbnb might have is like over. R I P R B and B L over Twitter. And I was like Uh maybe I need a

9:45 Get a job for real. And so I'm like, I gotta make money on this thing, let me try. So that's what I started the paywall and so and the and it worked. That's like the other moment I think I launched the paywall. And it worked. You know, I made meaningful dollars like a month in.

9:59 So speaking of Ben diagram, he said, I'm good at it and I And I people like it. And people like it. Oh, and I like Doing it. You like good. That's a really good'cause I didn't mention that. Okay.

10:10 That it's like that's the thing. Yeah. Yeah, I think I keep guy has like five things, right? It's like a whole bunch of stuff. Yeah, but that's like a trick a point,'cause it was just like People like it and I'm good at it. Mm-hmm. But without that I actually enjoy it. I think you said I l

10:23 And I like doing it. Okay, cool. Do you still like it? I do. And Almost every way. Like I can't imagine doing

10:32 Something more fulfilling and interesting. Just basically um My job is to write about things that are interesting. and share people's interesting insights and experiences. And interview people and extract wisdom. It's just like

10:44 So Interesting. It's my own thing, which makes it extra interesting. But I think a lot about uh this artist Finch. wrote this blog post, How to Become an Artist.

10:55 And at the top of his post he's just like, You probab you should not become a professional artist, most likely. Where is it? Yeah. Because once it's a thing you have to do, it changes it. You have

11:06 You know, you have to do it. So now I'm on this Like this is the downside, but I just want to preface with saying this is incredible and I can't imagine doing anything else. That I enjoy more. But

11:17 Uh having to write a post or put out a post every single week. And a podcast episode every week. You know, it's like this treadmill that you're on. So you have to kind of get used to that.

11:26 That part. Is no fun. But Again, I can't think of anything better that I could be doing. And and it kinda goes up and down sometimes like

11:35 I love it. I'm so happy I get to write a thing every single week. And then some weeks I'm like, It'd be cool though to do it this week. But that's part of this life, you know? You can't You can survive in this way. If you're not doing something consistently and making it awesome every week.

11:48 So So the visual I always have is the Indiana Jones. Uh boulder is chasing me constantly. Yeah. Because you put out something, like I have a post come out.

11:58 What's today? We're recording on Wednesday. I had a post come out yesterday. And then I'm it's like what's next week, all right. That's done. All the work you put into it. Over.

12:06 That's coming out next week. And it's like every week. So The big question I I don't have an answer to is where this all goes long term. Because some day.

12:15 Whether it's a Seven years old or hundred years old or Sixty years old. I don't know. Like maybe I won't be able to do this. Every single week, so I think about where does this all go. I don't think there's a answer to like

12:26 Substack writer podcast life. Long term. Like what do you do? Like according to the Lindy? Right? There you go. So twenty nineteen, two now seven seven more. Seven years since the newsletter. Seven years. So I think yeah, okay.

12:38 Seven more. Okay. So we got seven years. I can I can do that. Yeah. Okay. So Speaking of the boulder.

12:46 You don't seem like a stressed out person and I don't see you as a stressed out person only like Potty training. Uh Sleep. The you tell their uh baby sleep stuff. Yeah.

12:57 I don't see you as a stressed out person. Uh, do you think there's anything behind that? Do you think that's just you? And or are you just stressed? And doesn't you don't feel it. I think there's an element of I'm more stressed than I come across as and even recognize with myself.

13:13 Like I get these headaches sometimes. I'm like, What is it going on there? Is that stress or is that something else? So I think there's a bit of I'm probably more stressed than it looks like. And that I even feel But I think I'm probably less stressed than the average person. I think part of it is genetics.

13:27 And then part of it is I I work on it. Like I just I've learned to adjust the way I think. Two Reduce. Stress and to not take things seriously.

13:38 But I think I I think honestly it's probably like seventy percent genetics. I'm just like it'll be all right. That'll be all right, as you know. Something we are here, but That'll be right. It's some like Raw chicken. Uh.

13:49 That's fine. Yeah. Uh So okay. Do you have any tools or any kind of like I know medi different types of meditation and we've done breathing courses together. What do you have a favorite? Do you Oh to like calm down and de stress. And you did you did a oh ten day

14:05 silent meditation right before you ended up writing the post. A mere post. That's true. That was a big wisdom. Oh, here's something I've never shared. Okay. Yes, about going back to the moments that led me to this life. So I went on a

14:20 uh bachelor party trip with some friends. This isn't where you think it's going. I hope not. Yeah. So it was a trip to Josh Retrie with a friend.

14:29 And uh there is psychedelics involved on the strip. Yeah, and I just remember so we went to Joshua Tree, I just sat down on this rock. On a substance of some sort. Uh And

14:42 And this was as I was starting the newsletter? And I just remember sitting there for Probably three hours in this one spot. And I was just Having this

14:51 Deep breathing. happening and this like phrase of I have wisdom to share. coming through me over and over and over. And I was just watching this crazy visualization of some kind of

15:04 Sitting Buddha thing. And it's just like I have wisdom to share. And that was for three hours, I think. That made you write the post? feel like I can do this. Like it gave me the confidence that like, okay, maybe I do have things to share.

15:20 Yeah, that was a really powerful moment just to give give me confidence that there's something inside me that's like Oh yeah, maybe I c I could do this thing. So that was a big moment. What do you wanna say what do you wanna say to our mothers right now? My mom does. Do you want to take that back? No, no Do you wanna crop it out? This is um I did some stuff.

15:42 It's okay. We okay. So it's time to time to share. And then yeah, you've done meditate you did ten day meditation, you did a specific type of meditation that that seemed to me to to affect you in like physical ways. Yeah. And then you told me once about a happiness. Course you took? Yeah.

15:59 That was actually pretty transformative. I took this Online. course at University of Pennsylvania, but uh the psychology of happiness. And it was basically all the science of what makes you happier.

16:10 And how to be happier. And that really had a big impact on me because it showed you you can increase your baseline level of happiness by doing a few things. And one of the things is just like thinking more positively, like thinking more optimistically. There's also like gratitude stuff that I didn't find as useful. But there's just something about You can everyone's got this baseline. That was actually a big learning from that course is

16:30 Everyone's just kinda knows baseline. level of happiness. And you could be like at a hundred, you could be at zero. Probably more most people are in between somewhere. And

16:38 Like something amazing happens, you go oh yeah, way up in happiness and then you come back to that baseline. Something terrible happens, you go back to that baseline. And the main thing you can do is work on improving Their baseline. So that you come back to a higher place.

16:50 So that's what a lot of the Work is and what You learn in that class. And one of the things is just be optimistic, just kinda have a positive outlook. And don't let your mind kind of spiral into these like

17:02 It's gonna be terrible. So it was a lot of just like think more positively. And I feel like my baseline of level of happiness has gone up. I think that in

17:11 Yeah. And you told me exercise too, like Yes, that was a really good insight. So exercise the the science. This was like I don't know, fifteen years ago, I'm guessing there's new research. But the interesting thing there. Is uh Exercise doesn't make you happier, but it brings you out of the negative.

17:26 So you're negative one. Without exercise, and exercise brings you to zero. So that you're not depressed, basically. Speaking of stress. Okay, then I have a question for you. Oh. Okay, let's do this.

17:36 Let's do this. Uh because I know on your podcast you have a lightning round. Okay. Um, we're gonna do a thunder round. Is that extra fast, or is that No, it's sound. Your one thing that I think stresses you out.

17:50 The most At times is Uh your misophonia. Which is you wanna explain what it is? Yeah. It's like

17:57 Yeah. It's funny to talk about it, but it's this it's it's like this disorder. It's like a real thing in the brain. Where I get bothered by certain sounds.

18:07 And so I get very bothered by people. Is gonna be top five. Worse sounds. Or you can rank these sounds. Okay, okay. You're gonna give me the five like like

18:20 Best best sound to worst sound. Okay. Ten is worst. Okay. Ten is best. I don't know. What are the best sounds. Okay, what's okay? Okay, let's say chewing. Chewing one to ten. Chewing like with the mouth open, just the worst.

18:33 Yeah. I hate it. Uh ten is the worst. Ten is the worst. It's you know It's probably it's in yeah, it's ten, nine or ten. Or like like nails on a talkboard. What's that? That's like less bad for me. Right. What's the number of it's like if it's someone sitting right next to me just like chomping away. Yeah. And it's so awkward to ask anyone to stop. I hate doing that. It's like so weird. They're like shut up. But it's just like what?

18:54 Yeah. I'm just sitting here eating. Leave me alone. Yeah. That's how I feel whenever I do. By accident, near you. Yeah. Uh so nails on a chalkboard, what's

19:03 It's like six, I don't know, five. What about um I don't mind this. What about like a baby crying or your what's a babying versus your baby crying. Mm-hmm. Baby crying. Like uh Satan is the worst. Yeah. So like how loud? Like very loud. Like like like in in newborn phase, like

19:17 Like didn't know what to do, like Oh yeah. That was really Like when when Jude was born. Yeah. Oh yeah. That's pretty hard. Thunder. Okay. Uh Like eight. Okay. Okay. What about like um when dude says Papa. Yeah.

19:34 One. One is the best, yeah. And any other sound you Drew laughing. Okay. Okay, I love it. Another bad sound. I don't know.

19:45 Okay, you can you can ask me now if you want. Okay. No, no, no. I d like there's not that many bad sounds. It's just like very specific bad sounds that I'm just like Basketball? You know, if there's just like

19:58 If I'm trying to com like be calm and there's like A bunch of commotion like Okay, uh Like a gas, you know, blower. Oh yeah. I'm trying to work. That's I think a notorious one for people.

20:09 What is that a ten? It's like if it's super loud and right in my face. I would say let's say a seven. Okay. That's about you can ask your question now if you want. Or I have more for you. I'm gonna ask you a question. So Uh

20:20 So you make these Incredible. Genius, funny charts. There's one example in this book. So you have this first book here called Am I Overthinking This, which a lot of people identify with. Has sold many copies.

20:32 Uh so you're you create all these charts. That try to Synthesized. Things in life. Things people experience, things people feel.

20:40 A lot of these charts get shared. On socials. by people that steal your charts and just pretend like they made this or just found it and they cut out your attribution. They make Pillows and mugs and there's like all these websites that sell all these charts you've made.

20:55 Just like um Swag. That you get no credit for. I know it's bothered you a lot over the years. What makes your charts so shareable?

21:02 So widely. I why they go so viral so often. Mm. By the way I stopped looking. Yeah. 'Cause it doesn't help.

21:10 Me. Anyway, um that's good. I think that's for the best. Well, I think that's the good thing I think as As your thing has gotten more successful. It's like not us. Important to me.

21:19 I do think it's interesting that they are often like detached from me, which is I don't know why. But um Yeah, people want to get credit. When they do. Um And it's I I think I can figure out

21:29 Some of them. It's clear when I Make it. Whether it's like I make it and then I let it sit and then some other some like moment happens or I'm like oh no, this is what it needs and then I'm like, Now it's Now I can feel that's really good and

21:42 Usually it's like it's something that makes me laugh or cackle, even though I made it. It's like Like it's like, Oh, I've already seen this in my own brain and it's still funny to me. Or makes me kind of like tear up. Then I

21:53 Feel? Like okay, I think People are gonna like this. I am often wrong. And sometimes too, like

22:00 There are things there's something from that book that I didn't share at all, but someone took a photo of it. That's how it on viral is like just a photo. of a page of a book that people loved. Like it wasn't even like a digital high quality picture, it's just like the written photo, yeah. Yeah. Which is interesting as well. But And also people's attention spans, uh Sometimes there are just

22:17 But I what I like to make is things that are really Simple? Um And Quick and

22:24 Show you something you haven't thought of before. And I think that if it's really easy to Digest. People's attention spans are short these days and If it makes them feel something.

22:34 is another thing and It's also Nice to make something that's That Isn't a lot of like physical labor.

22:42 Um because Some things you can make and it can take you forever. to draw out because my brain does work in this like overthinking kind of way of like this, but then oh this, then this People like it when it's really simple.

22:54 Yeah. Yeah, I love your point about like The way you know a chart is done. is intrinsically you feeling like this is hilarious, this is makes you laugh, makes you Feel something and

23:04 That's similar to the way I Think about my newsletter post and Yeah, m more the newsletter than the podcast is it just To me it feels like this is like really interesting and really good. It's very like

23:15 Not waiting for other people to give you You know, approval or feedback. It's like I feel this is good. And I think that's really interesting that that's similar. to the way I approach my stuff.

23:26 I find that when you work on your charts Uh. You're like You think so many levels deep and they're like They're like so they're like too clever sometimes and I feel like pull'cause to your point, people have a short attention span.

23:38 Sometimes they're like too clever and I have to like, okay, this is too many layers you have to understand. And I have to like that's a little much. You have to like simplify it a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, you're my editor. Sometimes I try, but you're like no, you're like I don't care. I don't I don't care about your feet bigly. Usually probably right.

23:56 Yeah. Okay, let me ask you one more question and then we could switch it around again. How do you come up with your ideas for your charts? You have so many Such variety. You had an adult book, you had a child's nay of a children's book.

24:08 Uh, you're working on like church for parents, you have all this other stuff going on. Where do your ideas come from, Michelle? The ideas come from just living life and noticing d noticing a lot of things and then also kind of Um observing A lot.

24:23 I I know that I've been really prolific when I've been meditating and in meditation, you learn to kind of observe your own thinking and if you're anxious about something like oh I'm That's funny that I was anxious about that. Random thing. Uh

24:38 I ha I've never thought about it that way before and Which is interesting because it is kind of like overthinking every moment. Which it meditation shouldn't be teaching you to do, but that's what happens. But I I've noticed if I Focus too much on my work.

24:53 I stop living life and then I stop having ideas. And it's a little different with children's books, which is what I'm working on right now. Because the it's not like relatable.

25:04 Things a little bit, but It's um More children's concepts. But the adult Stuff.

25:11 Has to be just through. Living life. Noticing, yeah. Yeah, noticing. Makes me think about anything David Siderais had this Story where he's just Has to say yes to everything he's invited to just'cause he needs to have experiences.

25:23 'Cause he just has to keep pumping out stories. So he's just like Sure, it's going to Vegas right now. Let's do it. So I feel like that's a lot of the Work here is just a live real life. You can't just kinda sit there and come up with ideas. You have to

25:36 Try stuff and do crazy things. Yeah, so the first so my first children's book, which Is Is out. Soon. Um that one actually came out of

25:44 Parenthood and early New parenthood moments. That's how I started. I started at the beginning of the notebook. Writing kind of like trying to make

25:53 Charts for new parents. But We've been reading so many kids books together that I just had this like da da da da da da like Rhythm in my head of Torrance books.

26:02 And so what It I just turned to the back of the notebook and started Right in More like children's book rhymes. This is at the back of a notebook'cause you're working on a different book and you're just note in this notebook or put my questions in for you?

26:17 Yeah, and so I started off in the front. Um, I'm not gonna show you. So you start in the front on a different idea. I started off in the front Charts for new parents. And then I was like Got.

26:27 You know, if you in You know, like a good amount in And then I was just in the Park.

26:33 Right. And then I kinda was just like, Yeah, but I have always wanted to Do these charts for Kids are for babies. And I just Kept wanting to

26:42 Right, that's I started in the back and then I filled it up. That way. I love that this is another example of just following poll. And not just doing the thing that you're doing. Just like huh, this is

26:52 Pulling me in, I'm gonna try it and just see where it goes. Look at this. What a callback. Okay, back to you, Michelle. Back to you. Back to me. Back to you through me.

27:02 Yeah, exactly. Okay, okay. So um tell me about I I do want to ask you this question. Inspired by our friend who Like reverse nicknames you?

27:13 And says like Leonard is your name. Name Leonard. Where's Lenny come in? And by the way, reverse nickname meaning they give you a nickname without you like asking them to. Well there's people who give you a nickname without you asking. That's yes. Yeah. He gives you The full name. Oh, I see makes it long. Yeah. It's not a thing. I'm just digging it up. Okay, like Okay. So the question is my real name.

27:35 Uh so when I moved to the US from the Ukraine, which we recently chatted about on a podcast with Boris, which turned out to be a big Big news. For people, I dare say, yeah. My parents name me Leonid.

27:48 was my real Official First name in the US. But they called me Lenny, everyone called me Lenny. And so when we became citizens, you could change your name.

27:58 And so my parents just changed it to Lenny. That's my real name. It's just Lenny. No Lenny. Oh Leo. Yeah. Oh yeah, Leonardo. Just Lenny. Just Lenny. Yeah. I love it. And Leonid as in It's it's a Russian name or There's also the like

28:13 Oh the Leonids. I don't know. I think they just asked their friends just like what is Russian name is Лня And so I think they just like with the English version of that and I'm guessing some of their friends are just like.

28:26 I don't know if they named it after anything. Specific. Can I share any of your nicknames? I'm going to assume no. What are my nicknames? Okay, go for it.

28:34 Uh I don't know who they are. Like Lunchick? Okay, sure. I could share that. Sure. Do you like it?

28:41 Yeah. Well it's like my family calls me that. Yeah. It's like a Russian yeah, it's like a Russian little nickname. Gunchik. Yeah. And you Okay, but like

28:50 Strangers, can they call you that? Uh no, don't copy that. Okay. And speaking of strangers, how do you feel when people approach you and and is it weird at all? Like like does it remind you how bigger newsletter has gotten or like do you like it? Do you like certain ways of

29:06 Approaching it. Yeah, so I guess what you're uh speaking to is when I walk around The Bay Area in particular people often recognize me. Which is extremely weird. And started with the podcasts once like interestingly, I had the newsletter for four years. Yeah, you got to be like you got to be stealthy. Yeah, and like my face was tiny and some Twitter profile.

29:25 But I once I started the podcast, people just Yeah, it just it was like very weird the first time it started happening and then And now it happens uh quite a lot. I like it a lot. It's very cool. I really appreciate it. It makes me feel really nice. I am not bothered by it in any way. Uh it always

29:41 It's very flattering and people are always so nice. And just I have endless nice things to say. I've never had a bad experience, so I'm just trying to say hi. To me. So

29:50 Please say hi. Okay. That's great. And I often ask people what's their favorite podcast episode or favorite newsletter'cause I'm just curious. I have I always ask just like your founder, your product person, like what's your story? Yeah, it's right. If you like at a coffee shop and you have headphones on and somebody says, like, hey Or if you're like playing with your kid, what do you think?

30:07 I think you're projecting about what you wouldn't want. People don't do that. I think people have been generally very conscious. You know, there could be a moment of just like we're getting somewhere and I can't talk for too long and I don't wanna be rude. Or you're like in a focus. Yeah. But but then Yeah.

30:24 Yeah. It hasn't been a problem yet. Uh. Almost Like ninety nine percent of people have been very considerate. Yeah. And I don't want people to feel like they can't just talk to me and say that's cool.

30:33 Yeah, they're always so cool. I like that. Yeah, is there any Like instance of delightful. Like maybe the first time this happened. Uh we live in Marin. And

30:44 I was walking over through San Anselmo a with you, as you remember. And There's this guy in a little red car driving by. With his son, he's driving by and on the sidewalk. And then he just yells, Letty

30:56 I love your podcast! Exactly. God. And this wasn't even in San Francisco, it was in San Anselmo. It was uh

31:06 Shocked. And then he just kept he like held up traffic just to say hello. I'm like, Oh my God. Yeah, I wouldn't do that. Yeah, probably wouldn't do that. And then I met him later. He runs a hamburger club in Marin.

31:16 He's very cool. 'Cause I saw him again at another coffee shop. So that was quite delightful. I love that. Uh, okay.

31:24 You just said something. Okay. People coming up to Um Okay, you're gonna have to cut this. See, and then we're not gonna cut it'cause this is what I go through too. As a podcast interviewer.

31:36 I thought of something I lost. This is what I'm constantly dealing with. Yeah. That is a challenge of the interviewer. Uh and I think it's fun for people to see. 'Cause you're like, Okay, I have to think about what's I'm gonna say next, and then you're like they're stop and then you're like, Whoa, what's it gonna be? So that's why on when I do the podcast, I'm secretly writing notes to myself constantly. Um So check your notes. Yeah, well okay, I closed my Okay, I should have written it down.

32:00 Let's talk about Like thinking back to what What kind of Um Hints.

32:06 that you would start this newsletter or like Things that you worked on when you were younger that Uh. Mild like a little like or like a uh mildly adjacent or like You know,'cause you had some wet like some websites, you had

32:18 Eight spa You had. Like you had some UTL. That's one. So the question is like what are the things I did earlier?

32:27 That helped me with the Work, do you know? Or yeah, just'cause just looking back like anything that That is kind of like makes it obvious that you would have started this newsletter or like a little more

32:37 I don't think there's anything that would have pointed out. Mirror anybody to this being the thing that I do now. It's completely Unexpected. personally and I don't think anyone saw it coming. Uh I had never written anything online before I started writing.

32:49 I was always Not like Hey, look at me, I've got all the answers and I have all this wisdom to share is always like I'm an introvert, I'd like to kind of stay behind the scenes.

32:59 So It was a it's a very unexpected path for me and Part of the reason I think I was able to do it is uh Uh the newsletter started during Covid, so I could just sit there and type it, put stuff out online. I didn't have to go anywhere and like Hell everyone. I could stay like in my little hole.

33:12 But just to uh follow through on these things you pointed out that I did earlier,'cause Uh, I don't think I've ever talked about these things. I had all these different side projects. Before Uh like through college, I guess. Yeah, through college.

33:26 It was like a very uh Big atheist. And I'm still an atheist. Jewish atheist. Which as many Jews.

33:34 But I was like very into it before and I'm like, Okay, I don't care, whatever. Believe it try on belief. Uh so I used to run a website called the atheistspots.com. Which was Reddit for Atheist News. Which is not a Yeah, Reddit does that.

33:47 It's fine. I don't you don't need it. But I went to like there's like conventions that we went to. Atheist conventions. Uh so I did that. And the funny thing is that was the During AdWords when

33:59 Google AdWords was A way to monetize your site. And so all the ads on the site, because most of the articles are about religion. Where all these religious dating sites. So it's like Christian mingle and like all these funny dating sites that didn't make sense for the audience.

34:14 So I always thought that was funny. And then uh I worked with a friend on this other project called U Torials, which was so ahead of its time. The idea was UTORS Tutorials for you by you. Nice.

34:25 And so it's people contributing things they've learned and writing a how to. Like how to make eggs, how to take a quick shower. And it's all these like TikTok. It's like TikTok. It was before I think. Yeah, it's like tube. It's like what I watch TikTok for is like watching people make

34:42 Yeah, and parenting advice and Things to be afraid of. Yeah. Yeah, and dance videos, yeah. So it was That's what your thing was, or that's what TikTok is. Right. Yeah.

34:51 So yeah, I was really proud of that. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds good. It sounds like it was ahead of its time. And Local Mind was ahead of its time. And local mine. So that was my startup. We sold it to Airbnb, that's how I got there. Uh local mine Amazing idea and Not something anyone needs really.

35:06 Hm. Uh I still need it. Like you need it once in a while. So just to briefly explain what that is, uh It was uh an app that sat on top of Foursquare in Goala and that was very cool.

35:16 And it allowed you to ask questions of people. Checked in. Anywhere in the world. So if you're like They're along line at the mill, which is near here. Should I go? Is there a long line with like the special?

35:26 Basically, Yeah, we use Google does it with their like is it busy. Yeah, it's yeah, like you know, all these other ways that you could solve this problem. That was very cool. Uh. It was amazing. Nobody needs it really.

35:36 If there's stings you want to ask you. You need like once a quarter. Yeah. And it's holy shit, that's so good. But you know, you can't make a business out of that, so I'm glad that we We exited.

35:48 Today's episode is brought to you by DX, the developer intelligence platform designed by leading researchers. To thrive in the AI era, organizations need to adapt quickly. But many organization leaders struggle to answer pressing questions like, which tools are working? How are they being used? What's actually driving value? DX provides the data and insights that leaders need to navigate this shift. With DX, companies like Dropbox, Booking.com, Adion, and Intercom get a deep understanding of how AI is providing value to their developers and what impact AI is having on engineering productivity.

36:22 To learn more, visit DX's website at get dx.com slash lenny. That's get dx.com slash lenny. Okay, so you're mentioning The the eighth spot. With

36:34 A bunch of religious dating sites. Yeah. That you were my first online date ever. Oh yeah. On it. Snatch Drake.

36:44 And I Remember. The I mean You had other dates. Um

36:49 Anyway, no. But I remember you were like um Had See, I think you had to think for designers. Yeah. And I wonder if you regret that preference. Like designer artist sort of like. No.

37:03 Not at all. Stereotype. No, no. Like I'm not. Thank you. Like you're pretty neat. Yeah, yeah, it's true. You're kind of chaotic. Yeah.

37:11 Which is we can talk about your process, but it's like it's a messy process. It's true. You know, we have a good yin yang. Yeah. Yeah, I'm just gonna go. Yeah, like you're unstressed, unbothered, I'm Bothered. Yeah.

37:23 I'm just gonna be able to do it. Yeah. We got cleaners, they help things out. Yeah, it's true. You know.

37:29 It's worth it. Okay. So You're okay with designers still, good. Uh and then as a wipe. Yeah, right, right. Highly recommend. Oh okay. Yeah. Cool.

37:39 So yeah, I was gonna ask like do you have any tips for'cause it's like It's You know, there's There's something you said recently, which is like you don't have any co workers. I was like, I'm your co worker, we work at home.

37:49 Um, but Yeah, do you feel do you Ever feel like lonely, not h'cause you were always really social. And then this goes into two like Even before

37:58 You were niche famous or whatever we want to call it. People are always coming up to you on the street like Airbnb'cause you're Organizing things and um do you feel like you miss Office culture? Mm-hmm. I have People ask me that over the years and I've always like, No, it's amazing. I don't need that. Like I just doing my own thing and I don't need people around.

38:19 But I've kind of started to feel that a little bit and just like Huh, there's no one like I just sit at home all day and just like Our dog likes to be right next to you. Yeah. Yeah, sweet. Yeah. Uh so I do feel like I do miss it.

38:32 No. It's not like a huge problem, but it's just like Yeah, it'd be cool to just jam with someone on Stuff. And I have a team and I have you. And Twitter, like Well you like to go to coffee shops. Like to go to coffee. What do you get?

38:45 But it's like bowling alone kinda I don't know it's like that's the good metaphor like And you have your head you put your headphones on your headphones on yeah and you're focused, that's like Yeah. So it'd be fun. Like I have an awesome team and we jam on stuff, but it's not like Like I think there's a I do miss having someone next to me that I'm just working with on the same thing. But I also am trying very hard to never have

39:05 full time employees. I'm trying to keep things really simple. because it's so easy to build this thing into like this whole thing that's complicated that I'm like, what have I done? One of the challenges with this life is you can create a job for yourself that you hate. By doing things that people want you to do or by following opportunities that feel

39:22 Big? And then you're like, I hate this. So I'm trying to be really careful about what I commit to and Do you?

39:30 Coming back to your question. I do miss it some, yeah. It's like a new thing I've realized that I miss is Being around other people. Like working on the same thing. Yeah.

39:38 So Thinking of other people like coming up to you and being around other people. It I think it's become harder for you now that now that people you don't know come up to you because I think you actually have a little bit of face blindness. Absolutely. Who do know you.

39:53 And you're like waiting to know if If they just listen to your podcast or if you Like I know if I know the like. Yeah, this is a big problem for me. Yeah. It's like it

40:04 It's like another brain disorder, I guess. Where I just don't remember people's names. I'm so bad at it. So just like And know you. Are you? It's like people texting you from a new number. I'm like, Who is this? Yeah, sometimes I feel like the

40:17 Devil Worth Prada. Um Assistant where I'm like That's Emily. You worked with her and Airbnb or that's her. You don't do that. You need to do that. I I do it sometimes. You do that sometimes, okay. Yeah, so bad at that. Okay. So if you come up to me and you say hello and I don't recognize you, please sorry. I'm really bad at it. And yeah, it's like gotten worse because now I know more people through the podcast and the newsletter and like

40:39 Yeah, and you just know a lot of people. Yeah. People like you're. You're very kind. The people like you. Yeah.

40:46 Try. Okay. So going back to the like unbothered. Vibe that you have. Tell me about

40:53 Um time you've been really stressed in your business and then a time you've been really stressed in your Personally. Okay, so on the business side, uh so I have this product pass. So as a subscriber to my newsletter You get Twenty three incredible products.

41:08 And I used to read them all. Linear mob and a lovable replet. Gamma. Yeah. I stopped doing this because there's too many now. I had the end of my podcast. I just read through all.

41:17 And now I can't do it anymore. There's too many. I had a launch about a year ago. It's about a year actually. where I launched you get a free year of cursor. And lovable. And both And Raplet and V Zero.

41:30 I think that's five. And so Uh that was way too good an offer. People. Came for it. Bad people.

41:38 So it just had so many fraudsters. Mostly in China, it turned out. Just like all these fraud rings in China. Trying to find ways to steal all my All these free goodies.

41:50 So they set up all these. Crazy attacks and I had to work with Stripe and Substack to just like shut'em down. And they just found all these little exploits and our API that we built and like this. So it's like such a nightmare'cause we're just like waking up to Like every night. I was like hard to sleep and have I've this engineer

42:08 Uh S Day who's So incredible. Any Mike didn't sleep for a week. Stopping filling all these holes.

42:17 Because all there's a lot of a lot of smart Clever bad guys out there. So that was extremely stressful. Like it could trickle down into the whole thing falling apart if everyone's like, Oh my God. Can't trust Lenny anymore. So as you remember, it was very stressful. I didn't sleep too well. And it was like

42:32 Very scary. And there's all these they just kept popping up. And there's all these like rings and it went viral in China too. That's like in in the student network that just Holy shit you get a year free of cursor and lovable and replet and bolt and V zero and Uh so That's very stressful.

42:47 To answer your question on the personal side. Okay, so When our baby was born, the birth was very complicated. Uh you had to get Uh C section.

42:59 Because the induction wasn't getting it there,'cause yeah, it was complicated. complicated when normally I feel like I would tell the story, but you weren't awake. But this is also like a When Harry met Sally, but it's like how The The pregnant person almost died.

43:15 Yeah. But okay, but it's from your perspective because I didn't get to experience it. Right. So Yeah. So what happened is we had to you had to do a Caesarean They gave you an And so the ideas they bring you into the

43:29 Operating room. They Do they anesthetic? the epidural or whatever it's called, and then they let the husband and the partner in. And so I was waiting in the hall, waiting for them to

43:40 Do the anesthetic. They gave me a whole bunny suit. Yeah. Super sterile, just standing there in this bunny suit thing. And the idea is they do the anesthetic and I can come in. And then watch the birth and all that stuff and Five, ten minutes in, I just hear

43:54 Peep. And The doctor runs out, scrubs her hands. Runs back in. And then all of the two other people run from another room.

44:04 Yeah. Down the hall, into the room. They're like, uh oh. Uh. I was scared. I was very scared.

44:14 Because I had no idea what was going on. That didn't sound good. Nobody told you anything. Nobody told me in there. No one's coming out like here's what's happening. It was like ten minutes of just nothing. Yeah. And you were supposed to be in there and after like A minute. Yeah, it's gonna be quick, yeah.

44:30 Yeah, I was supposed to be like, Come on in, we're gonna do this here, you know? And like you're awake during it, you know, in real life. So just remember pacing down the hall. Using Going back to the lessons I've learned.

44:41 Just like it's gonna be okay. Gonna be okay. That's what I remember saying to myself. Just kind of trust that they know what they're doing, you know. We're in a hospital. There's a lot of doctors around. And

44:53 And then eventually they came back and they just said That epidural. Went the wrong direction. And so instead of going down, I went up your body and so is Stop tr stopping your heart and lungs and they to intubate you and

45:05 do an emergency intubation and get the baby out and then Took like an hour for you to come back. They were they were gonna put you in ICU to help you come back. So That was very scary'cause you weren't there. I don't know what's going on. And you got to hold you got to hold the baby for like an hour.

45:20 Yeah. So that's why he's like a He's like Only Papa. His uh

45:27 He's another person that That prefers you. Who's the other person? Our dog. You know'cause you're now for now. But yeah, it's uh

45:38 Yeah, that was really scary. Stressful. Yeah. That was that was the thing that hoped. But it was like very scary'cause it's just like Life could be. Completely different now. Like something like

45:49 Yeah, like you could have like the guy that Anesthesiologist said it was a one in fifty thousand chance. And it's like the worst scenario that is very rare. And very Dangerous.

46:01 And so It was extremely scary. And l and luckily he did a great job and everyone's like he killed it. He did like he You knew exactly what to do, Eden. Handled it really well. Yeah.

46:10 Yeah. Yeah, and I don't have any You can remember this, yeah. numbed my lungs and I was like I can't breathe And then it And then I limbed my

46:21 I know. What is it? Brainstem, and then I passed out. How about that? How about that? I didn't had to get to have any Yeah. How does it looking back are you are you don't have to talk about it. Okay. Well, you know, yeah, it's uh that that's that's what you said, but it's interesting too, like

46:35 not have an experience around it. And the experience was like The live experience as one. Yeah. Moment of my life. Yeah, and I didn't I wasn't I didn't know anything about it. because they put me under general anesthesia and then I was all loopy.

46:50 And then I didn't even know really what And then later I read the report, like a month later I read it. I actually had someone else read it who was in the field and she's like It was your cousin Lois and she like moved her Thick glasses like wow. Yeah, she's like a nurse back in

47:05 Anyway. Stressful moment. Uh yeah. So you use your tools. Yeah, I use my tools. Otherwise, you know.

47:12 That's a good point,'cause it could have been like spiral like our do we had a duo, but she had left. The Dula was gonna be there, yeah. But for Caesarion, she's like it can't be here. Yeah. Okay, I wanna ask you a question, but unless you have something we wanna fall open. Okay. So you come up with these incredible charts. They're just like you know, it's like the kind of charts you see on the internet.

47:31 They're like, Oh my god, that's so genius. And Watching you come up with it is so Wild,'cause he just you just like it pops out of nowhere. And then there's like a little bit of iteration, then like that's it.

47:41 What's the process for you coming up with a chart? And what's like the environment that you need? to create your best work. Coffee is a It's like not too much there there's one I have that it's like I mean it has to be the perfect amount of coffee, so actually

47:56 Usually get a single shot. Do you know about a b the bomber peak, by the way? Quick tangent. Okay. Okay. So there's a concept called the bomber peak. Yeah. From X K C D, which is just the right amount of alcohol where you're the most insightful and creative, and then it falls down, which is like I don't know. I forget why this is Steve Balmer related, but Yeah. So the bomber people have one like that about coffee, but it's not it's made out of a little coffee straw and it's like We're gonna show this on YouTube if you're watching this, so you could see the chart. It's like I'm a genius and then I'm having a panic attack. And so that's

48:25 Me is Is like It's like Yeah, I'll get to this point where I feel like I mean coffee is a drug, right? So if I have too much it is like a drug and I'm

48:34 I feel like a genius and I'm like having all these ideas, but then I think it's it's too like I don't know if this was a real image, but there was An image of spider webs. And it's like this is a spider web. That ingested some Right. L S D and stuff. No, yeah, and then this is a sp that had co spider that had coffee.

48:49 And it's like instead of a regular web, it's like a web that goes like this. Like it's like just erratic and tangential and I have some of the Some really good I some really good like seeds of ideas in those moments, then I have to go like scream into a pillow or something. Was that when you have too much coffee or when I have too much coffee, but but if uh there's a point like right before that. So single shot, lots of it. Single shot is what I get. Single shot latte.

49:13 Uh at least. An hour sometimes it's good to have a like a somewhere I have to be. to a time limit. And then I'm kind of like I feel it I feel like a machine. Uh and like trying really hard to Get somewhere in. And then the other thing is just like a lot of it is

49:30 Writing something down as I'm out in the world. And then putting it trying to put it on paper in a way that visualizes it because I'm not strong at drawing. So

49:39 And Yeah, when I was a kid, my dad did a lot of math with me and a lot of like you know, fractals and visualization and patterns and so I

49:49 Sort of think that way. Um like mathematically kind of in um Yeah, so it helps me to visualize an idea. Uh. That

49:58 In the simplest way possible. Let me just say this is very cool that we're doing this. This is like really fun. So sweet. Yeah, this was like really nice. Yeah. This is our Odessa moment.

50:09 Yeah. You're born. No. No, but one of my questions was like Um I don't know.

50:17 This would be like if I were in the audience, it would be more like a comment. Versus a question. Yeah, we're both uh our families are both from countries that like Mine from Venezuela, yours from Ukraine, where people are always like, Oh Does that like

50:32 Like we didn't just arrive. Yeah. Ukraine. So it's like not. Yeah. The same. Yeah. So we have to like almost make them feel we okay. Like it's okay. I mean some my family still lives in Venezuela, but Okay, so I asked you a question. Okay.

50:46 Um That's back to you. Okay. Great. Well, yeah. No, okay, let me reflect back what you said. Cause this is really interesting. So a single shot so it's like some kind of like Uh neuro. Stimulation, I don't know. Single shot, just enough. Uh I like this deadline piece. That was really interesting. And it's like not too much n time, not not like not thirty minutes.

51:05 Although That e that can be why. Late. often as I'm like, I just I've almost got it. I just, you know.

51:12 Uh it the I'm a time optimist, as you know. that I'm like, Oh, I think I have it. And then But but a good good time is like two hours. And then

51:22 Two I have to be somewhere in two hours. Interesting. Okay. So those are two elements and then was there another To for optimal creativity. Oh, an a good night of sleep.

51:33 Yeah. Yeah,'cause if you're talking about the bad night of sleep plus plus too much caffeine. Then you don't have any You know, you have no ideas, you just have the like frantic piece of the caffeine the like That mental energy.

51:44 Anything else? This is uh this is really interesting. I think just the idea of what is What creates creativity. Mm. Just like experiences. Experiences and thinking and and almost like thinking too much about them. I like that. Maybe overthinking. Yeah.

51:57 Right. Yeah. Back to you, Michelle Riel. Oh to back to me, to you? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So We did the thunder round. We did that. the the worst things to hear. Okay.

52:08 And the best sounds, which Your sons laugh. Yeah. Yeah. Do you okay, we probably know your favorite like product.

52:16 Management bucks. Do you have a favorite? Children's book other than mine. To read to charts for babies. To read to and also like April. And also maybe you could

52:26 You could do more than one because But you know they like Maybe there's one when you was a baby. Like I feel like a chart is And you never take my ideas'cause I feel like you don't want to

52:37 Yeah. But I feel like there's a Books you love that are children's books, and books your kid loves. Yeah. Right. And that's like I hate reading this one, but he loves it. So we're gonna do it.

52:47 Yeah. So it's like he decides what his favorite are. I love John Classen books. They're so like Beautiful and just like Sweet.

52:56 Are they sweet? They're like actually not sweet. You're right. There's like death in all of them. Yeah. Yeah, they all end in death. Yeah, like uh Do to anything is like You eat the bunny? Is it the Bear? The Bear book? Yeah.

53:09 Okay, stole my hat. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, like we start the book and he's like Eita, bonito. Where's the bunny? Lick in his belly.

53:17 But is yeah, is there any like overlap? You think there's a favorite that that that One is that's his favorite that you Now love because that you didn't love initially. Yeah, like Doctor Seuss. I think we've similarly leaf healed. It's like way too long as one. 'Cause it's like fifty pages, sixty pages? Like come on.

53:36 Yeah. Animals and And like he's like, What's a zong? Yeah. You're like trying to teach them real things in the world and then he's like Oh, the tale of a song's like what?

53:48 Viper from Vip? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I don't like that. Uh we like but we like reading them. We've kinda used yeah, there's like a rhythm.

53:56 Well, like anything in Spanish, I read to him, obviously. Mm. And Yeah. I mean Anything you wanna

54:03 say about like I don't know. Is there any sort of like product Pair pr anything you've learned in product management or the growth that has Translated to parenting. You know.

54:14 Light. Product management is All about influence. And that's basically parenting. That's why he likes you better. Why,'cause I can influence. But you also have to make'em do stuff, you know? Yeah. Yeah. They're like you do have authority.

54:27 You know. Uh all the responsibility without the authority, but you do have authority, so It's easy. It's true. It's like nope. Yeah. I feel like I see your product management in that like you make him like I should be the one making him a chart, but you may You make him like the like

54:46 Here's how if bedtime gets too long, you're like Here's how bedtime's gonna go. We're gonna read you three books. You gotta start. And then also I'm answering for you, sorry. Go on. Things where it it's Where I'm kinda like, Yeah, it just happens the way it's happened and you're like

55:02 No, I I read a book on it. I read three books on it. And this is how we're gonna do it. And and that's and it's gonna work. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Right. Yeah, I'm not like an intuition. Guy I'm just like

55:13 What have the smartest people figured out about this? This isn't the first time somebody has tried to Shorten bedtime. Right. Shorten bedtime, sleep through the night. Right. Yeah. Yeah. There's like yeah, there's like Smart people that have tried this stuff before.

55:26 Yeah. And can tell me what they've done. And okay, so I guess this is I think my last question for you. And I don't know if you want to answer it, but

55:38 Like I As your wife. Uh Oh. However many years, like ten.

55:43 So I don't think I know what product management is. Do you can you tell Five words. Mm.

55:50 Okay. I will My words are impact. Collaboration. Judgment.

55:58 Alignment. And This is a really good question. And it's almost like the The order is like how you think about product management. Like, you know, it's like the order you put'em in.

56:09 And what else? I'll just say some stuff,'cause it's really interesting. Coordination. I think it's five. Organizing.

56:19 Manning. Okay. outcomes. I am just tuned out. There's so many years like shut up. So boring. And I'm just like, What should I have I said? That's what I'm gonna think about now.

56:29 But it's yeah, it's like a crazy weird job, all these different things. Yeah. I'm just like sniped, I wanna keep thinking. Mm. Yeah, I keep I'll give you my definition of product management. Yeah, but you can't say mini CEO. No, no mini CO. That's that's not cool. Okay. Although I actually do think is PM is a mini CO. Like I think People keep saying you're not, but I think you are. Yeah. You can't say like not a Right.

56:50 Project manager. Not a project manager. That's right. I think the way I describe it is Uh, your job as a product manager is to Deliver business impact by

56:59 prioritizing and solving the most impactful. Business problems. Something like that. Not the many words. Yeah.

57:07 You're like this is why I never know what it is. It's so boring. What are you talking about? Cool. Like this comes back to the mini CO thing just to

57:16 Close that thread. I feel like the PM on the team is basically should be thinking the way the CEO thinks. You know, like their job is to think What would the CO? do on this specific product or feature. Because

57:28 The C's job is to make this successful, make this business grow. And so your job as a PM is to kinda channel that what will allow this team And product to help the business. Be more successful. Do you feel like you're doing that as as uh the

57:40 I guess you are I'm everything, you know. Like in my current world, right. Chief, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

57:48 But I have a copy editor of an editor, so I've I've helped. Oh right. Yeah. Yeah. People ask me what about product management helped me do the job I do now. I don't think there's anything. To be honest. Except just like things I was already into, which is just being very organized.

58:01 having a very high Bar for quality. Communicating like I think communication maybe is just like How to succinctly communicate points so that people grasp them. Whoa, look at this. We're the same.

58:16 Introducing the gear is just Communicating something. Simply.

58:22 Wow. Well let me ask you one more question. So Maybe it's to close. He wrote two adult books.

58:30 You now did a children's book. Why the pivot to children's books? Why'd you decide to To your children's book. I wanted to do a Tones book based on the first Adult book.

58:41 Because I thought that Charts are so There are like a ton of early learning concepts. Put together. So

58:49 If you look at children's books. There's You know, the themes are Often. Opposites.

58:55 Colours. Tapes. Feelings Um and then I just I was thinking like you can really

59:03 You can really teach a lot from a chart and it's So simple. So it's a lot it's a lot of opposites. It's big and small. It's It's uh you've got going up and going down, you've got overlapping colors.

59:16 Becoming another color. You've got you can make a lot of feelings with with charts. That's the second book in the series that Then I'm It's coming out next year. Yeah, but we but yeah, I'm I I Finish it, but it's you know, it still takes

59:28 Muddy here. to to come out after that. But yeah, it's it it was this like Uh I wanted to work on it in abstract, like I had I had the thought of wanting to work on it, but it didn't come until I started trying to work on another adult book. that I really just had all these rhymes in my head. Like

59:43 Had it was more like a cadence. I had just like this like You know, in my head and And yeah, I just tried it and it came really quickly, the first draft. And yeah, and it it also Good. I always wanted to make one because

59:56 As as a little girl, my dad wanted me to he's a geophysicist. He wanted me to be strong at math. He's like Yeah. 'Cause at the time it was kinda like girls. Um weren't encouraged necessarily to

1:00:07 good at math. So he he from just like a young age, he was always showing me. I did the same with our son too, like always showing him Patterns and like, oh if you flip it, it's like that and It's just really fun for me. And It's it's cool to

1:00:22 Uh writing the first one. With Like our son growing up. Learning from experience, like I was saying like having the experiences. of him as a baby and like how I'm learning how to teach him things.

1:00:32 Then he gets a little older and then that helping me work on the the feelings and And also Learn how to speak to kids as well. When I didn't have any, I was like, I don't know what to say to you.

1:00:43 And now it feels more natural. And so I I I had a a children's book that I tried to write. Before I had kids. And For me, that one wasn't.

1:00:51 That's good. And so I feel like I gained a little bit of just like how to talk to. Child. That's a really good like segue, or not segue, I don't know, connection to something that we've talked about a few times is

1:01:04 The best stuff comes from like actual experience. Like'cause you had a children's book like you just said that you wrote before you had? And then it wasn't good. And now. having the experience you can actually make something great. Yeah. And then also like another thing I thought about was just reading so many children's books. People always say if you want to write

1:01:21 Read. And Yeah, we read a lot. We read a lot of lot of books. And it um it just got me in that zone. Two.

1:01:30 Yeah. It just makes me think about something I think has been key to my newsletter success is Uh, it is based on like real life doing the thing, like At this point most of my posts are guest posts.

1:01:42 Where somebody's sharing the best thing they've learned in their career. Like the one thing they wanted to share? Which I love. And It all comes from something I focus a lot on is from people on the ground doing the thing, not just

1:01:53 Floating the clouds, pontificating. And That's the source of the best advice is from practitioners doing the thing for real. You know, not just pontificating. It's just I think that's a really good maybe one takeaway is just

1:02:06 The best stuff comes from Doing the thing and then sharing your advice versus just thinking you know what you're doing. Communicating it. Simply. And just like refining. I don't even get into just all the work that goes into refining. And then yeah, we always you always talk about like be yeah, and another thing I do is like I often make it's it's stressful because I make things and I am not sure if they're good enough yet.

1:02:25 And I put them to the side. And then I come back and and I might have an idea. Knowing that it's already in my head, I might have an idea like, Oh yeah, that's what's gonna make that better. Or I thing adds to it. But then as you've set it aside, then you see something else. You see something in the world like, oh shoot, somebody

1:02:42 Beat me to that thing I Didn't ever Do anything with. So that's why to like Like have something sitting.

1:02:50 Like with with maybe you with your podcast and Yeah. Well let me ask you this and I'll answer for my own myself. How many iterations do you do on a chart? On average, like how many times do you like edit it and refine it? Mm. Depends.

1:03:02 Yeah. Yeah. At least five. Okay. Like for me, I think it's like

1:03:08 Sixty. I was gonna say a hundred. Okay, that's probably the real answer. But I but I can't even physically do that. It's like I I need Yeah. Yeah. It's just like Well what do you mean by so like when I write a newsletter post, I go through it probably let's say fifty times. Making it better. Like I I start there's like something that's the beginnings and then

1:03:27 Read through it and add to it. Read through it, add to it, read through it, add to it. Improved, improve, improve, improve. Like fifty times. And then I have my editor go through it and have a copy editor go through it and a designer help me. You don't do that with your emails, though. I no.

1:03:40 I should. I do do that with my emails, which is should be I shouldn't be doing that. Like I read them over and over. I used to. I used to. But no, I do I s yeah. Anyway. Yeah. Anything else?

1:03:51 Oh, I mean, yeah, let me You plug do you want to plug? Absolutely. Uh when is it coming out? April seventh. April seventh. So it's like a few weeks I think from when this comes out. Assuming this comes out. Yeah. We'll see how it turns out. We're gonna check it out. We'll check it out. If you're seeing this, we checked it out. Yeah. Uh So charts for babies coming out April seventh.

1:04:12 April seventh. April seventh. Yeah. All your favorite retailers. Yep. Local bookstore. Local bookstores. Wherever you buy your books. With the age range of kids? It's two to four. It's called for babies.

1:04:22 I did do it. A chart recently about like how long is your baby a baby? And And it uh yeah, it's like Baby is this

1:04:31 Infant is like one to two, da da da, and then it's like it's your baby infinity. Yeah. So I've noticed like we still call him The b not really anymore, really like the baby. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Um, but he's like almost three. And uh so yeah, it could be like I would say zero to four or

1:04:46 And uh yeah. You know what? Big Rabbit? Yeah. Let's grab it. Let's just break the frame. I people on the recording hit, but the the first like the end paper is what this is called.

1:04:56 It shows all the like Things you could learn. Sizes, shapes, lines, numbers, directions, feelings, colors, amounts, sharing, concepts, relationships, opposites. Anyway, I'm not good at self-promotion, clearly, so let's I'll stop it. Yeah, it's uh it's It's a lot of learning.

1:05:11 It's beautiful. It's hilarious. It's Clever it's early learning concepts. It's simply let's check it out. Rhyming. Yeah. Uh congrats on releasing this book. And it was a lot of work.

1:05:23 Thanks. It was a lot of work. I did have a lot of iterations. The secret to success. Yeah. I iteration, editing.

1:05:31 Editing. Okay. Spending more time is what your old boss used to say. Spend more time on it. Spend more time. Yeah. Anyway. Okay. All good? We done?

1:05:39 Michelle, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. I'll ask you my typical questions that ask at the end. How can where do people find you online? How can listeners be useful to you? My website, MichelleRale.com R I A L, or I'm also on Instagram, not. Not too much these days, but still a little bit.

1:05:56 You can look for the book, Charts for Babies. Right. Yeah. I don't know if when this will be out. You can either pre-order it or order it. Right.

1:06:04 One of the yeah. Ha ha Parentheses pre, but ordered. Yeah, yeah. Michelle, thanks for being here. Like it. And

1:06:13 Thank you. Thanks for having me. My pleasure. I know you have a high bar. Absolutely. You hit it. Okay.

1:06:19 Great. And yeah. I hope you were okay with the interview. A plus. It's gonna it's gonna do numbers. Yeah.

1:06:27 All right, let's get out of here. Okay, bye, everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review, as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show. at Lenny's podcast dot com.

1:06:50 See you in the next episode.

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